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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    Just as the title says.
    Everyone and their mother has probably seen lists or youtube videos grading classes and subclasses and no matter what, they all do a terrible job representing two out of three pillars. For instance, Battle Master Fighter tends to get the highest of grades because of how well it's designed... despite being an abject failure of design when considering Social encounters or Exploration/Environment engagement. If Combat is an A, Social is an F, and Exploration is an F, how does it's final grade always end up A+?

    So! Totally ignoring combat - how would you rate the classes?

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    It's hard to judge. Social and Exploration are 90+% "whatever the DM feels like".

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffWatson View Post
    It's hard to judge. Social and Exploration are 90+% "whatever the DM feels like".
    this. social and combat encounters are really poorly defined as it is. and the consequences are incredibly broad.

    i'll give an example: charm person can be great for an individual social encounter...but how do you account for down the line? what happens when you've 'won' this encounter, but then that NPC knows you charmed them? will it matter? who are they? there are too many possible answers to that question to really tie it down.
    similarly, fail a survival check and get lost in the wilderness? ok, what type of wilderness? how dangerous is it? how long are you likely to be lost for before finding some sign of civilization by accident? how easy is it to gather food while you're lost?

    im trying to illustrate that, unlike combat, its much harder to tie down the consequences of failure, and without knowing that, its impossible to know the benefit of success.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    Quote Originally Posted by kazaryu View Post
    this. social and combat encounters are really poorly defined as it is. and the consequences are incredibly broad.

    i'll give an example: charm person can be great for an individual social encounter...but how do you account for down the line? what happens when you've 'won' this encounter, but then that NPC knows you charmed them? will it matter? who are they? there are too many possible answers to that question to really tie it down.
    similarly, fail a survival check and get lost in the wilderness? ok, what type of wilderness? how dangerous is it? how long are you likely to be lost for before finding some sign of civilization by accident? how easy is it to gather food while you're lost?

    im trying to illustrate that, unlike combat, its much harder to tie down the consequences of failure, and without knowing that, its impossible to know the benefit of success.
    I usually avoid using charm person due to the whole "what if the npc finds what was up"

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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    Are we supposed to assume the class has been optimized for Exploration/Social Encounters ?

    If yes, then I'd say Bard as the top one. They have access to enough spells to contribute significantly in Exploration. They can get Expertise in mostly anything. Bardic Inspiration is GREAT at supporting teammates.

    And of course, being Charisma-based AND having access to most Enchantment and Illusion spells, and Divinations such as Detect Thoughts, give them a crushing advantage in any social situation.

    Then... I would say Ranger does fine at Exploration, although Druids and Wizards (with Find Familiar and most Divination spells) can outshine them IF they don't need to save resources.

    Rogue can be really good at SOME things with Expertise, Reliable Talent, and don't have to worry about resource management at all. But a Rogue optimized for Social Encounter will be less performant in Exploration, and vice-versa.

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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Schwann145 View Post
    Just as the title says.
    Everyone and their mother has probably seen lists or youtube videos grading classes and subclasses and no matter what, they all do a terrible job representing two out of three pillars. For instance, Battle Master Fighter tends to get the highest of grades because of how well it's designed... despite being an abject failure of design when considering Social encounters or Exploration/Environment engagement. If Combat is an A, Social is an F, and Exploration is an F, how does it's final grade always end up A+?

    So! Totally ignoring combat - how would you rate the classes?
    Artificer - A
    Barbarian - F,D, C- depending on path
    Bard - A, A+ depending on college
    Cleric - B,A+ depending on domain
    Druid - A
    Fighter - C- normally but B+ with feats
    Monk - B,B+
    Paladin - B
    Ranger - A
    Rouge - A
    Sorcerer - B- ,A-
    Warlock - B+, A
    Wizard - A+
    Last edited by stoutstien; 2021-09-18 at 06:36 AM.

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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    Non-Combat challenges typically rely on Investigation, Perception or Insight.
    Roleplaying challenges typically rely on Insight and/or one or more of Deception, Intimidation, Persuasion.

    Barbarian: Bad.
    Totem Warrior. Gains Beast Sense and Speak with Animals, which can be generally useful no matter where you go. Being able to speak to common rats and cats can be immensely helpful for many urban scenarios. 6th Level Aspect of the Beast gives you a non-combat, non-rage dependent ability which can be handy depending on your DM. Commune with Nature is a very handy spell later on. But I don't think many people take Barbarian levels after Level 6, if they get that far.

    Bard: Proficiency in any three Skills. Spells, including Rituals. Charisma as a class stat. Bardic Inspiration can be used for basically anything. Jack of All Trades gives half Proficiency in everything. Expertise for even more proficiency. If Enchantment Spells were real, they'd be illegal.
    Lore. Three more proficiencies. Cutting Words works on ability checks, which is amazing when a member of your party is doing an opposed check with an NPC. Pretty solid.

    Cleric: Spells, including Rituals. Divine Intervention if you get stuck.
    Knowledge. Expertise in two Intelligence Skills, plus the ability to gain proficiency in any skill or tool. Huge. Read Thoughts is incredibly good, and Visions of the Past is just silly.
    Trickery. Advantage on Stealth checks for an entire hour is handy. Invoke Duplicity and Cloak of Shadows are also crazy good. But of course the whole subclass is based around Stealth, which might not be useful in some parties.

    Druid: Spells, including Rituals. Druidic 'Language' can be fun if your DM cares about it - they wont. Wild Shape has a crazy amount of roleplaying potential, no matter where you are. When you get to 8th Level and picking up Flying creatures, there is an amazing amount of situations you can bail yourself out from.

    Fighter: Uhh...Not in the PHB.

    Monk: ...Slow Fall?
    Way of Shadow. Several good non-combat, stealth-based spells in Shadow Arts, obviously. Shadow Step and Cloak of Shadows are incredibly good. But at this point I'd rather be a Cleric of Trickery.

    Paladin: Spells, but no Rituals. CHA can be decent. Divine Sense lets you pick up powerful Shape Changers in a way that the Ranger doesn't, which can often turn non-combat encounters into combat encounters very quickly, if that's what you want. Lay on Hands can cure poisons and disease, if your DM is into playing Commoners as people who roll around in poop for fun.

    Ranger: Three skills from a fairly large list. Spells. Favoured Enemy lets you pick up extra Languages, as well as advantage on Survival and Intelligence checks against them. Very good if you pick up two Humanoid species. Of course you can tailor real hard to a specific group with help from your DM. Natural Explorer can be extremely good if you have help from your DM, and your DM actually gives a **** about the things that Natural Explorer, does. Primeval Awareness is helpful, to a point, but since it doesn't reveal location or number, the DM just says 'Yes' and is very unhelpful. Hide in Plain Sight and Vanish are incredibly good. But I've literally never seen a Ranger played past Level 8.

    Rogue: Four skills from a large list, and Thieves' Tools proficiency. Expertise for even better Skills. Thieves' Cant is a fun ability if your DM actually uses it, but like Druidic, they probably wont. Reliable Talent is a bit silly. Then of course Rogues end up with Blindsense 10 ft., which is weird. But sure.
    Thief. Yep. Loads of non-combat potential.
    Arcane Trickster. Spells. Invisible Mage Hand is ridiculous. I've had it disrupt several sessions. Mage Hand already has a billion practical uses. Having it be invisible allows you to use it in public.

    Sorcerer: Charisma is high stat. Spells, but no Rituals. Subtle Spell has many ridiculous uses, particularly when used with Enchantment/Charm spells, which should be illegal.
    Draconic. Bonus Draconic Language and Expertise in CHA checks vs. Dragons.

    Warlock: Charisma is high stat. Spells, but no Rituals. Many Invocations have non-combat roles. Pact of the Chain can get you a Familiar than can turn Invisible indefinitely. Pact of the Tome lets you pick up even more Cantrips that you cast for free, from any spell list.
    Archfey. Charm creatures within 10 ft of you for a turn can be useful. Maybe. It's very short duration means you have to think fast, but there are some things you ask someone to do in six seconds. You can also stab yourself to turn invisible and teleport.
    Fiend. Add a d10 to an ability check. Nice.
    GOO. Non-language-dependent Telepathy is very, very good.

    Wizard: Intelligence is high stat. Spells, including Rituals. Enchantment should be illegal.
    Divination. Silly. Silly.
    Illusion. Very good, or useless. Unfortunately illusions depend on your DM having their NPCs buy into them. A very roleplaying School.
    Transmutation. Very roleplaying heavy. Can solve a lot of puzzles.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2021-09-18 at 06:57 AM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    Part of the difficulty in answering this question is that "exploration" is such an amorphous blob, isn't it. Often taken to mean anything that isn't combat or social interactions, that's like... a lot. Platforming, tracking/wilderness tasks, infiltration, research/knowing stuff... the list goes on.

    I will, however, take this time to make my usual statement about the rogue's Reliable Talent and how it's patently ridiculous. I get rogues are supposed to be the "skill experts" and whatever, but like... COME ON. My proposed fix is either let the rogue pick 2-3 class skills for Reliable Talent, OR let every character pick one class skill for it, either at creation or at level 11 if you feel like that's better. Otherwise rogues just walk over every other class for skills, other exploration tasks notwithstanding.

    Interesting side note about swashbucklers: they have a charm ability that operates off of raw personality INSTEAD of magic, which is a handy work-around for when you need to charm somebody but enchantments are off the table.

    But the classes' social abilities, when viewed as a whole, indicate D&D's general social interaction problem - there's no real taxonomy of interactions, so instead of one class being good at diplomacy tasks while another class is good at bargaining or leadership tasks, almost all of the social skills are either "CHARM" or "SPEAK LANGUAGE" (with a couple of notable exceptions, i.e. College of Eloquence). So if you're a bard/rogue who Expertises Deception or Persuasion, you've pretty much won the race, excepting charm spells or class abilities.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    A Level 15 Bard can guarantee a roll of 30+ on Persuasion and Deception checks, if Glibness is up, without using a Bardic Inspiration die.

    A Level 5 Eloquence Bard can guarantee a roll of 20.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Schwann145 View Post
    Just as the title says.
    Everyone and their mother has probably seen lists or youtube videos grading classes and subclasses and no matter what, they all do a terrible job representing two out of three pillars. For instance, Battle Master Fighter tends to get the highest of grades because of how well it's designed... despite being an abject failure of design when considering Social encounters or Exploration/Environment engagement. If Combat is an A, Social is an F, and Exploration is an F, how does it's final grade always end up A+?

    So! Totally ignoring combat - how would you rate the classes?
    Sounds like you don't understand fighters and battle masters. Or you're trolling, lol.

    Exploration/environment challenges are often bypassed by STR, DEX, or sometimes CON checks; sometimes even hit points. Fighters tend to be decent at those. A spell versus a skill or check that yields the same end result is a neutral overall advantage. Spells can be easier or faster sometimes but generally it requires a bit of contrivance to be an issue.

    Social encounters usually rely on checks fighters are less good at, but choosing to use a bonus feat that could apply here (or environmental hazards) instead of something else is on the player, not the rules. Subclasses often add to benefits here as well.

    • Arcane Archer: bonus skill proficiency; bonus cantrip
    • Banneret (PDK): bonus skill proficiency; bonus expertise in persuasion
    • Battle Master: bonus tool proficiency; know your enemy; maneuvers that include commanding presence and tactical assessment
    • Cavalier: bonus skill proficiency; born to the saddle
    • Champion: remarkable athlete; survivor (sure, this is failing forward but it works in some cases)
    • Echo Knight: manifest echo (teleport application); echo avatar
    • Eldritch Knight: cantrips and spells
    • Psi Warrior: telekinetic abilities
    • Rune Knight: rune carver adds tool expertise (fire), sleight-of-hand and deception advantage (cloud), animal handling and intimidation advantage (frost), insight advantage and darkvision (stone), arcana advantage and cannot be surprised (storm); advantage on all STR checks (giant might)
    • Samurai: bonus skill proficiency; elegant courtier


    So a bit more...

    • Action surge rarely gets used out of combat but it can be applied to any pillar when it matters.
    • Indomitable can apply to any pillar.
    • All classes gain feats/ASI's as part of the class progression and these can be applied to any pillar, including fighters.
    • Fighters gain bonus feats/ASI's to meet this purpose.
    • Even without feats the ASI's can be applied for bonuses to any pillar.
    • All classes have skill proficiency options outside of combat, including fighters.
    • All PC's are built with a background that applies out of combat skill option, including fighter PC's.
    • There's a lot of basic equipment that can be applies outside of combat.
    • Fighter subclasses range from small benefits (champion) to a lot of benefits (rune knight).


    Fighters aren't even a "D" rating let alone an "F". The standard mechanic to resolve a challenge is an unmodified d20 roll and everything goes up from there. Bonus feats and subclass features give fighters a step up over a lot of classes, tbh.

    There's also no such thing as "if you're not first you're last", which seems to be the implication behind your "F" remark. A character's ability to succeed is compared to the environment in which he/she/they is trying to succeed, not the fact that another class might succeed a bit better or less in that same environment. To fail, a class would have to not have options to succeed at all.

    Battle masters get a high rating because fighters excel at fighting as a primary function and battle masters do that well. They also always have opportunities to add benefits to other pillars. Always. They don't have to have the social ability of a bard because bards are a lot squishier and lower damage than fighters. It's not that fighters aren't present in other pillars, is that each class varies in each pillar.

    Finally, with all the opportunities 5e throws at a fighter PC for out of combat abilities not taking advantage of those is a player choice, not an issue with the classes or subclasses. ;-)

    PS: Charm person is a crappy spell. I saw several comments on it and it's only situationally useful if a person needs to ask a favor from someone who isn't already on friendly terms. A wizard who casts charm person just to fail the check isn't exactly a glowing example of when there are many ways to add advantage to the check regardless so the spell doesn't actually increase the chance to succeed on requesting those favors. ;-)

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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    Great noncombatabts
    - Artificer
    - Bard
    - Ranger (Tashas)
    - Rogue
    - Warlock
    - Wizard

    Average noncombatants
    - Cleric
    - Druid
    - BM fighter (Tashas)
    - Ranger (non-Tashas)
    - Paladin
    - Sorcerer

    Poor noncombatants
    - Barbarian
    - Fighter (non-Tashas)
    - Monk

    Subject vastly to change based on the sort of game being run, things other than combat are notoriously poorly supported in D&D on average.
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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    Xanathar's

    Barbarian:
    Ancestral Guardian. Level 10 for Consult the Spirits is arguably way too late to be any help.
    Storm Herald. Level 6 gives you a non-combat buff that can be helpful.

    Bard:
    Glamour. Yes. Do anything you want to NPCs. They're not even real people.
    Whipsters. Holy crap. Mantle of Whispers is incredibly good at what it does. Whole subclass is great...If your DM is running that sort of adventure.

    Cleric:
    Forge. Create any metal object with a value of less than 100gp. Could potentially solve many puzzles and challenges. Takes an hour, though, and uses resources.

    Druid:
    Dreams. Hidden Paths at Level 10 is very useful.
    Shepherd. Permanent Speak with Animals is good. Lots of roleplaying to be done, there. Also unlike a Totem Barbarian it's permanent, not a spell, and unlike a Forest Gnome, you can talk to creatures that aren't Tiny...Like Dogs and Wolves.

    Fighter:
    Arcane Archer. Gain an Intelligence skill, and also Beguiling Arrow is just weird. But hey, mechanics are mechanics. I'm going to shoot you, and now you're Charmed. Again, it's only for six seconds. But hey, roleplaying is almost all about creativity. If you don't know what to ask someone to do in less than six seconds, you probably shouldn't be using these abilities.
    Cavalier. Gain a bonus Proficiency, your choices may include Insight or Persuasion. Or, you can pick up a Language.
    Samurai. Same as above. You can get access to Insight, Persuasion, or a Language. Elegant Courtier at Level 7 allows you to add Wisdom to your Persuasion roll, y'know. 'Cause you're a Fighter and your Charisma and Wisdom are likely to be low(ish) and you need all the help you can get.

    Monk:
    Drunken Master. Proficiency in Performance and Brewer's Supplies. Tool Proficiencies are great as per Xanathar's, and since we're using Xanathar's to even get this far...Yes. Bonus on Persuasion checks and you can make fresh water if your DM is into that sort of thing. At Level 11 you can just cancel out disadvantage on your ability checks, which is...Good. But also you're 11 Levels deep into Monk and what are you doing?
    Kensei. Calligrapher's or Painter's Supplies. Both are Tool Proficiencies with...Limited use, even with Xanathar's. Maybe you can tell that a painting has eye holes which lets you know that there are secret tunnels in the walls? Scooby Doo-style.

    Paladin:
    Conquest. Force a frighten check. Lots of roleplaying potential there. But out of combat, there's not really anything that Frighten does, that couldn't be done with an Intimidation check. Either of which will use your Charisma.
    Redemption. +5 to Persuasion for 10 minutes is usually a whole conversation.

    Ranger:
    Gloom Stalker. No-resource Invisible tends to have advantages. Disguise Self as a subclass spell is always useful. I haven't wrote about subclass spells before now. That's just how high I rate Disguise Self in this particular thread.
    Horizon Walker. Detect Portal is either useful, or useless. Etherealness has many, many uses, even if it is only for six seconds. At only Level 7 you aren't too deep into Ranger that you don't still have time to get out after you get it.

    Rogue:
    Inquisitive. Bonuses to Insight, Investigation and Perception. Hey. Those are the puzzle skills. At Level 13 you can straight up detect illusions and shape changers without even rolling a dice. Hot.
    Mastermind. This subclass can dominate roleplaying encounters without resorting to magic. Since you're just...Being you...NPCs can't really react to what you're doing unless they figure you out, which they wont. Because you're a Mastermind, and that's the point. Contrast this to a Bard using Cutting Words during a conversation, or a Cleric casting Guidance during the same; 'What the **** was that!?'
    Scout. At Level 3 you gain Proficiency and Expertise in Survival and Nature. You might actually just be better off being an actual Ranger. Maybe. Rangers aren't very good. A suboptimal Rogue subclass is still going to be better than most Rangers. Ahh...But a Ranger gets spells.
    Swashbuckler. Despite being a subclass based around Charisma...It's all combat uses. Next.

    Sorcerer:
    Shadow. You can cast Darkness and still see in it. A few non-combat uses. Shadow Hound is great in a chase sequence - but some might consider that pseudo-combat. Shadow Walk is ridiculous, but that's at Level 14 and probably too late in a campaign. You're a Sorcerer. You have Spells that probably do that already.
    Storm. Free Language for a creature type that barely gets used. Flying 10 ft. can be useful, but you have to burn a spell slot just to fly 10 ft. and that's probably not worth it. At Level 18 you can fly...Wooo...That's not too late at all.

    Warlock: Even more Invocations!
    Hexblade. You get a Specter until the end of a long rest. You could probably do stuff with it.

    Wizard: Nope.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2021-09-18 at 08:27 PM.
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    Ignoring combat is a tough one. But if we are just talking social/exploration there are a few standouts IMO.
    - Eloquence Bard is the social king. Reliable Deception/Persuasion (likely with expertise in the same) at level 3 is pretty much a mandatory dip for an optimized social character.
    - Knowledge Cleric's proficiency with ANY tool. Since you get this at level 2, this also makes an amazing dip.
    - All Wizards: Fly, Contact Other Plane, Plane Shift, Teleport, Knock/Arcane Lock, Wall of Stone, Passwall, Mirage Arcane, Scrying, etc. A colossal list of campaign-changers. Special mention to Scribes (for having the power of "cheap spellbook") and Conjuration (for having the power of "make a thing").

    I would also note that for combat, we often talk about how good a class is in regards to how well it can utilize synergistic feats (IE lots of classes are better or worse depending on how well they make use of the -5/+10 feats). For exploration/social encounters, I would note a few standouts:
    - Telekinetic/telepathic both open up lots of possibilities with telepathy and that wonderful invisible mage hand.
    - Lucky (need I say more?).
    - Actor gives your charisma monster even more social power.

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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Poor noncombatants
    - Barbarian
    - Fighter (non-Tashas)
    - Monk
    FWIW, Fighters get more ASIs and thus more feat potential than any other class.
    Skilled is a feat. PHB
    Prodigy is a feat. Xanathar's (Get one expertise, pick a social skill for that)
    Skill Expert is Tasha's so I'll not delve into that one.

    So, a fighter who takes the Skilled feat can add skills like:
    Persuasion/Intimidation/Deception, Survival, Insight, and so on.
    A half elf fighter gets two more.

    a level 1 vHuman fighter can add 1 skill proficiency from vHuman and 3 from Skilled.

    In a heavily social campaign it might be the better idea.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-09-20 at 11:00 AM.
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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Schwann145 View Post
    Just as the title says.
    Everyone and their mother has probably seen lists or youtube videos grading classes and subclasses and no matter what, they all do a terrible job representing two out of three pillars. For instance, Battle Master Fighter tends to get the highest of grades because of how well it's designed... despite being an abject failure of design when considering Social encounters or Exploration/Environment engagement. If Combat is an A, Social is an F, and Exploration is an F, how does it's final grade always end up A+?

    So! Totally ignoring combat - how would you rate the classes?
    I think the crux of the issue is that usually if you die, it's because of combat. You can certainly say that if you are failing the social pillar you'll have more encounters or harder ones, and you can say that if you're failing the exploration pillar you'll miss out on things that would help in combat... but most DM's won't end a campaign on "you didn't convince that guy to let you in the building where the quest was, so the end" or "and then everyone starved".

    But on the assumption that you're playing a game with little to no difficult combat and the story progresses purely by social or exploration encounters, I would say that fighters and barbarians rank the worst in general, rogues, paladins, rangers, and monks rate okay but not great, while pretty much all of the spellcasters are far better since they have a lot of spells that can be leveraged in both social and explorative encounters. You of course have to account for the fact that you might take a bunch of things that are good in theory but never really come up with them, and miss the one niche spell you actually could make use of, so there is a lot of variance in how spellcasters might perform in practice.
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    I look at the lich and smirk a bit, as I bring myself back to my feet

    "What are you smiling about?" it says

    "hehe, it looks like you've made... a grave mistake :D"

    the bard, actively bleeding out on the ground *ba-dum-tss*

    "Ha! Nice try. Telling a bad joke to try to make your opponent drop their guard. Oldest trick in the book. Trust me, I was there."

    *barbarian falling, sword in hands, from the top of the castle wall directly above the lich*


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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    FWIW, Fighters get more ASIs and thus more feat potential than any other class.
    Skilled is a feat. PHB
    Prodigy is a feat. Xanathar's (Get one expertise, pick a social skill for that)
    Skill Expert is Tasha's so I'll not delve into that one.

    So, a fighter who takes the Skilled feat can add skills like:
    Persuasion/Intimidation/Deception, Survival, Insight, and so on.
    A half elf fighter gets two more.

    a level 1 vHuman fighter can add 1 skill proficiency from vHuman and 3 from Skilled.

    In a heavily social campaign it might be the better idea.
    Aye, thats why i put tashas BM higher. There are styles and maneuvers in Tashas that add to skills so those can be used together with the extras ASIs for better than average coverage.
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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxhound438 View Post
    I think the crux of the issue is that usually if you die, it's because of combat. You can certainly say that if you are failing the social pillar you'll have more encounters or harder ones, and you can say that if you're failing the exploration pillar you'll miss out on things that would help in combat... but most DM's won't end a campaign on "you didn't convince that guy to let you in the building where the quest was, so the end" or "and then everyone starved".

    But on the assumption that you're playing a game with little to no difficult combat and the story progresses purely by social or exploration encounters, I would say that fighters and barbarians rank the worst in general, rogues, paladins, rangers, and monks rate okay but not great, while pretty much all of the spellcasters are far better since they have a lot of spells that can be leveraged in both social and explorative encounters. You of course have to account for the fact that you might take a bunch of things that are good in theory but never really come up with them, and miss the one niche spell you actually could make use of, so there is a lot of variance in how spellcasters might perform in practice.
    I actually gmed a quest where the players managed to scare away the client by convincing it they were bandits because one of the players told his job was killing random people and taking their money (that is the kind of adventurer you do not want to recruit when you are investigating about crime so smart adventurers of this kind talk about this lifestyle only when talking to people in need of this skill) then all the players fumbling their skill checks to try to recover the situation so I went "Ok so that quest is not a possibility anymore now that he is convinced that you are as much likely to kill him as the people he is investigating on"
    (because if your job is killing random people and taking their money then killing someone that have a few thousand gp while they are relying on you for security is a great plan)
    Last edited by noob; 2021-09-20 at 03:30 PM.

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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Great noncombatabts
    - Artificer
    - Bard
    - Ranger (Tashas)
    - Rogue
    - Warlock
    - Wizard

    Average noncombatants
    - Cleric
    - Druid
    - BM fighter (Tashas)
    - Ranger (non-Tashas)
    - Paladin
    - Sorcerer

    Poor noncombatants
    - Barbarian
    - Fighter (non-Tashas)
    - Monk

    Subject vastly to change based on the sort of game being run, things other than combat are notoriously poorly supported in D&D on average.
    I generally agree with this, but I'd move Sorcerers up to the top tier due to being Charisma-based full casters with access to Subtle Spell.

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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    I think Clerics may be getting undervalued here, in part because the broad applicability of Wisdom (with available class proficiency in Insight) isn't being extolled, but glaringly because a bunch of their social power (and how it allows them to move through many settings) is based on their class fluff.
    Whatever else may be in their orders, a picket's ultimate responsibility is to die noisily.

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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidgit View Post
    I generally agree with this, but I'd move Sorcerers up to the top tier due to being Charisma-based full casters with access to Subtle Spell.
    You're probably right, especially in conjunction with Aberrant, Clockwork or Divine bloodline.
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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    *snip quote* totally misread it, sorry
    Personally I'm thinking Artificer will excel in Exploration and late-game crush some Social.

    For example, Alchemist becomes S-tier in Exploration. All its elixir choices have strong utility for exploration; you can fly, climb, swim, use disguises, and remove conditions. For a level-one spell slot. And all the spells that do the same things if you need a long duration.

    Base artificer adds homunculous, magic items like bags of holding, innately high lore and investigation checks, Guidance, lockpicking, and Flash of Genius, which really ups your face game when you really need to cinch the deal or pull a fast one.

    If you actually built for exploration, phys stats become less important (theoretically), you'd conceivably have room for decent Charisma.
    Last edited by Mjolnirbear; 2021-09-20 at 10:48 PM.
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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnirbear View Post
    If you actually built for exploration, phys stats become less important (theoretically), you'd conceivably have room for decent Charisma.
    I could see most people dropping str and con for the most part. Dex and the mental stats are all still reasonably important for exploration and interaction, and between pack mules and magic it's likely only one party member would want/need a good strength score.
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    Default Re: How would you rate each Class: No Combat edition

    Tasha's

    Artificer: Intelligence as high stat. Multiple Tool Proficiencies. Spells, including Rituals. And of course the ability to create magic items on the fly. Then for some reason you start gaining the ability to create any Tool Set you want - even if you aren't proficient in the Tools, having the Tool is often enough to do something, as per Xanathar's. You can then literally start adding your INT modifier to other players' ability checks...I always imagine an Artificer watching a Fighter have a wrestling match; 'Umm Akshully, have you even tried sweeping the leg, yet?' Subclasses more or less specifically revolve around your combat capabilities. But each one gets an additional Tool Proficiency which is very good.

    Barbarian: Gain more Skills during level up. Which is nice. But you're skill picking from the Barbarian Skill list, and you have to go through Barbarian levels to get them.
    Beast. At Level 6 you can an exploration ability; Jump, Swim or Climb. For whatever that's worth.
    Wild Magic. Better-than-Detect Magic has a number of applications. Adding only a D3 to an ability check, isn't that good.

    Bard:
    Creation. Tasha's is less than a year old, and already I, personally, have had the Creation Bard ruin several sessions just by using it's core ability; Create any object you want, within limitations that aren't even limiting, in six seconds. At least a Forge Cleric has to take an hour, and have equivalent exchange. Can you bribe a Guard with an illusory gem? No. Physical inspection ruins anything. Can you bribe a Guard with a real gem, that will disappear in a few hours, by which time you'll be long gone? Absolutely. The only limitation is your imagination. This class, by themselves, ruined multiple puzzles and challenges by using a single ability. The ability to create something, from nothing, is a deity-level ability and should be treated as such. Not handed out for free at Level 3.
    Eloquence. Similar to a Rogue (Mastermind). But the Bard Class with its Charisma high stat is so much more synergistic with what you're trying to do.

    Cleric:
    Order. Free Charisma skill is nice. Six-second Charm effect, with which you can do the usual, but you can also force the subject to drop what they're holding whether they want to or not. You can also cast Enchantment spells as Bonus Actions. Your DM may have funny ideas what a 'Bonus Action' is outside of combat, and how to deal with that. Can be complicated unless you work out with your DM how long a Bonus Action outside of combat, takes, and whether or not observers can react to it.
    Peace. Insight, Performance or Persuasion. As a Cleric you should already have Insight. Persuasion is a nice add. You can end up Guidance-ing an entire party for 10 minutes, for every ability check - not just the next one. Fairly solid. The rest is about healing.
    Twilight. Hand out Darkvision to the dumb Humans in your party, and you can fly in the dark. Okay.

    Druid: Gain Find Familiar for some reason that only takes an Action and no materials. Fine. Fine. I SAID IT'S FINE. Find Familiar takes an hour to cast? No it doesn't. Find Familiar takes 10gp to cast? No it doesn't. Find Familiar takes a Level 1 Spell Slot? No it doesn't. It takes a Wild Shape slot which you'll get back on a Short Rest. Find Familiar is a fantastic spell with a bunch of non-combat uses, and Druids now get it for a near-no-resource cost? Yeah, okay. Somebody has their dunce cap on.
    Stars. Cosmic Omen at Level 6 lets you screw around with your party's and NPCs' ability checks. Always nice to be a team player.

    Fighter: A new Fighting Style lets you pick up a Maneuver. This will cause a problem with single-class Fighters. But a multi-class Fighter with multiple Fighting Styles can possibly afford to pick up a Maneuver.
    New Maneuvers. Commanding Presence lets you add a Superiority Die to Charisma checks. Tactical Assessment lets you add a Superiority Die to History and Insight checks. Insight is a big non-combat skill, and Fighters typically wont dump Wisdom like they will Int and Cha, since Wisdom is the one that stops you getting mind controlled. And a Mind Controlled-Fighter is a bad Fighter. As above any Fighter has access to Maneuvers now through the Fighting Style, not just Battle Masters.
    Psi Warrior. Telekinesis is dope. It's like the Arcane Trickster having an invisible Mage Hand. But in addition to having an invisible Mage Hand, there's no weight limit to it, only a size limit (Large). You can also Fly at double your walking speed for six seconds, which is very handy.
    Rune Knight. You can grab Runes which grant you advantage on non-combat skills. Pretty good.

    Monk:
    Mercy. Free proficiency in Insight.
    Astral. Level 6 gives you some fairly solid non-combat buffs.

    Paladin: As a Fighting Style you can grab Cleric Cantrips, if you want.
    Glory. Short Rest ability to have advantage on Exploration skills for 10 minutes. At Level 20 you gain Advantage on all Charisma checks...For whatever a Level 20 ability is worth.

    Ranger: Ditch Natural Explorer, your DM doesn't care about it anyway. Gain Expertise in a Skill and pick up two Languages, also you gain a Swim speed and at Level 10 you can start losing Exhaustion on Short Rests. You can even keep Favored Enemy from the PHB if you want to keep those particular Languages, as well. As a Fighting Style you can grab Druid Cantrips, which are nice. Since Primeval Awareness does nothing (the DM actually doesn't tell you anything useful, just like the Find Traps spell actually does nothing), you can switch it out for Primal Awareness which gives you several animal-related spells to cast once a day. As I've brought up repeatedly, Beasts can be found in any environment (including indoors). There will never not be a situation where Speak With Animals isn't at least potentially useful (always talk to housecats, they know everything).
    Fey Wanderer. Add your Wisdom to Charisma checks. Neat. At Level 15 you get Misty Step and can take creatures with you. Decent.

    Rogue:
    Phantom. Each Short Rest you can gain Proficiency in any Skill or Tool. Yeah, okay. At Level 9 you can start asking dead creatures things if you're around when they die. However the creature is allowed to lie, making this ability potentially garbage. Depends on your DM. At Level 13, as a Bonus Action, you can turn into a ghost for 10 minutes 1/day. Very strong non-combat ability.
    Soulknife. Gain non-language-dependent Telepathy up to 1 mile with a bunch of creatures you can see. You can also conjure weapons from nowhere which has many pre- and post-combat uses. At Level 9 you gain a janky version of Teleportation. At Level 13 you gain Invisibility for an hour, because there are people who legitimately believe that Tasha's doesn't annihilate the power curve.

    Sorcerer:
    Aberrant Mind. Just give everyone Telepathy, fortunately it is Language-dependent (usually all PCs speak Common, but screwing with NPCs isn't a sure thing). No problem here. FFS, you can have Subtle Spell without having Subtle Spell, freeing up your Metamagic slots for...Anything else. At Level 14 you gain fairly solid exploration ability for 10 minutes.
    Clockwork Soul. Cancel out Disadvantage on skill checks (e.g; The Fighter in Heavy Armour trying to Stealth).

    Warlock: New Pact subtype: If the wearer (i.e; You don't have to wear the talisman) fails an ability check, you can add +d4 to it. It's not going to be useful all the time, but it does work. Even more non-combat Invocations. Invocations are great because they're 'always on'.
    Fathomless. Swim speeds are good if your DM is playing that campaign.
    Genie. You can bail for a while inside a Tiny object. It doesn't help the rest of your party, so it's usefulness is limited. But another party member can carry the object - and thus carry you - around if exploration skill checks are required that you're no good at. At Level 10 your whole party can actually sit inside the Tiny object like a Rope Trick, and how Short Rests only take 10 minutes, which is huge.

    Wizard: At Level 3 you can now switch your Cantrips every Long Rest. Very good.
    Scribe. Massive increase in Wizard power if your DM actually gives out Scrolls as your ability to acquire new spells is now fractional compared to what it was before. More spells = More better. You can also write basically anything, anywhere, anytime, which may have several uses if your DM does that. You can cast Ritual spells as their normal casting time, which is great, and if your Spellbook is ever destroyed or lost, you can replace the whole thing on a Short Rest. At Level 6 you basically get a free ghost-like familiar-like creature that can speak with you telepathically up to 300 ft. Not quite as good as a real Find Familiar, but 300 ft. is a fair distance.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2021-09-21 at 07:25 AM.
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