The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

[Dr.Samurai]

And Hamil doesn't get it either. And the man is not happy

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I actually was just put onto a compilation of him talking (not highly) of the movies. I didn't know about this until after I just saw The Last Jedi. Watching him talk about it I felt so bad. He couldn't help himself. You can tell he wants to just come out and say "they ****ed my character up" but he's trying to go around it.

The alternative is what Dienekes is suggesting... that Luke has not changed at all since the original trilogy. That his succumbing to taunts by the two most powerful dark side users in the galaxy somehow undermines his heroic sacrifice to redeem his father, and also helps set the foundation for considering the cold-blooded murder of his ten year old nephew.

Yeah, I don't think so. I think Mark Hamil has the right of it. They trashed the character

.

[LaZodiac]

I actually was just put onto a compilation of him talking (not highly) of the movies. I didn't know about this until after I just saw The Last Jedi. Watching him talk about it I felt so bad. He couldn't help himself. You can tell he wants to just come out and say "they ****ed my character up" but he's trying to go around it.

The alternative is what Dienekes is suggesting... that Luke has not changed at all since the original trilogy. That his succumbing to taunts by the two most powerful dark side users in the galaxy somehow undermines his heroic sacrifice to redeem his father, and also helps set the foundation for considering the cold-blooded murder of his ten year old nephew.

Yeah, I don't think so. I think Mark Hamil has the right of it. They trashed the character.

Pffthahahaaaa.

No. Hamil wanted this. They didn't trash his character at all, in so much as yes briefly considering stabbing your nephew is probably bad for numerous reasons. But he clearly feels bad about it. Luke Skywalker can make mistakes. Yoda can make mistake. Get over your hero worship.

[Dr.Samurai]

Hamil wanted to portray Luke again. Then he was given the script and realized he was portraying Luke in name only.

He's very clear that he disagrees with every decision made about his character.

EDIT: Oh, I see you edited your post to tell me to get over my hero worship. So we're fanboys and have hero worship. And you claim the movie is good because "it was done well and they put a lot of effort into it". Seriously, give me a break. Make a case. I've been pretty clear about what I don't like about the movie. All you've said is you don't have time to read the thread, you don't have time to explain why you like the movie, and then you've just accused people of fanboyism and hero worship for not liking the movie.

[LaZodiac]

Hamil wanted to portray Luke again. Then he was given the script and realized he was portraying Luke in name only.

He's very clear that he disagrees with every decision made about his character.

No he doesn't.

[Dienekes]

I actually was just put onto a compilation of him talking (not highly) of the movies. I didn't know about this until after I just saw The Last Jedi. Watching him talk about it I felt so bad. He couldn't help himself. You can tell he wants to just come out and say "they ****ed my character up" but he's trying to go around it.

The alternative is what Dienekes is suggesting... that Luke has not changed at all since the original trilogy. That his succumbing to taunts by the two most powerful dark side users in the galaxy somehow undermines his heroic sacrifice to redeem his father, and also helps set the foundation for considering the cold-blooded murder of his ten year old nephew.

Yeah, I don't think so. I think Mark Hamil has the right of it. They trashed the character.

You'll have to point out where I said Luke has not changed at all. Instead of, this action plays upon the established character traits of the previous movies.

Or where I said his earlier failures undermines his attempts to redeem his father. Honestly, I think his mistakes make his eventual success better. That's why we like characters that eventually get things right, because we watch them try and fail several times to set the precedent that failure is usual. So when success happens it's all the sweeter. That's kind of the entire problem people have with Rey. She succeeds without going through a try/fail cycle first, probably because Abrams thought that made her seem cool and powerful. Without realizing the try/fail cycle is why we like characters in the first place.

I mean come man. Argue with me if you want, but don't twist my words to make it easier for yourself to do so.

[Cikomyr]

Exactly how is Luke out of character?

[Blackhawk748]

No he doesn't.

So your psychic now?

[Cikomyr]

So your psychic now?

Well... Are you?

[Blackhawk748]

Well... Are you?

No, I just watched his interviews. He is not happy with how this turned out.

[LaZodiac]

Hamil wanted to portray Luke again. Then he was given the script and realized he was portraying Luke in name only.

He's very clear that he disagrees with every decision made about his character.

EDIT: Oh, I see you edited your post to tell me to get over my hero worship. So we're fanboys and have hero worship. And you claim the movie is good because "it was done well and they put a lot of effort into it". Seriously, give me a break. Make a case. I've been pretty clear about what I don't like about the movie. All you've said is you don't have time to read the thread, you don't have time to explain why you like the movie, and then you've just accused people of fanboyism and hero worship for not liking the movie.

Okay, here is why I think the movies good.

It starts with a really tense and well executed space battle that segues into what I felt was a very forboding and tense chase sequence over the course of around 18 hours in universe. Ren's journey is one of self discovery where she learns that she needs to trust in herself, not tie herself to past greats to justify her being there, where she talks with a man who was so disgusted by his moment of weakness that he has to escape from everything. While this is going on, the former foot soldier of the First Order gets to go on an adventure where he learns that evil is everywhere, not just in the place he has a personal vendetta against, and he's forced to learn that throwing your life away for some final spit of vengeance is a poor idea. Poe also learns that you can't just buck the chain of command however you want and succeed, everything he does while helpful causes FAR more death than is reasonable for an actual army to function.

I found all of these plot lines to be very well written, the character development fantastic, and the execution of these plot points incredibly well done. The fight on Crait was REALLY cool, with thte artsy red effects of the sand being torn up from the ground really beautiful in a very macbre, bloody way. Of course the light speed dash attack was a genuinely awe inspiring moment. I liked the movie, it was enjoyable. The characters acted in ways that made sense and everything was paid off well. What more do you want me to say?

As for the hero worship comment, yes. Get over yourself. Luke can make mistakes. You're twisting in knots trying to find some way to rationalize "Luke saw the darkness in Ren's heart and on instinct wanted to cut it out" because you cannot stand the fact that maybe your hero isn't perfect. Maybe he just made a mistake. These things happen.

You and the other person who brought this up are at the point where you're reading into the actor's words to be like "no see he agrees this is bad like I do!" when it couldn't be further from the truth.

[Dr.Samurai]

I mean come man. Argue with me if you want, but don't twist my words to make it easier for yourself to do so.

Dienekes, that's not my intent. I think I'm right. I don't need to twist your words around to do that. But let me see if I can clear this up.

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I think it's out of character for Luke to consider killing his nephew, even if for a second. I think it's out of character for most normal people, let alone a legendary hero like Luke. Let alone a hero that is distinguished for redeeming one of the worst villains in the galaxy. One of the strongest and most evil dark side users in the history of the galaxy.

Your response to that is to say that Luke has always been rash and impulsive. "Just like Luke always was" is what you said. This suggests very little change in the decades that have passed. So I don't think I'm twisting your words. You are equating his turning the lightsaber on and then turning it off at Ben's bedside, with his turning the lightsaber on and then turning it off in the throne room all those years ago.

I'm calling this a false equivalence, because it hasn't been shown that ten year old Ben is worthy of murder in the way that Darth Sidious and Darth Vader were. Especially given that they were at the head of a galactic empire at the time that was subjugating trillions of people.

I think your points fail in those regards. Ben is not Sidious or Vader. And if Luke is still rash and impulsive that he would consider killing a child, well, that's a problem. That needs to be explained. Saying that he's "an all around **** up" so it makes sense that he might consider killing Ben is saying that he hasn't changed in all those years, because you're using his actions in the past to justify his actions in the present.

Now, maybe it is the case that he hasn't changed at all. But then we're still arguing about whether the guy that left himself at the mercy of Darth Sidious to redeem his father is the kind of guy that might consider killing a ten year old boy.

[Cikomyr]

No, I just watched his interviews. He is not happy with how this turned out.

He is disapointed about something. That hardly means what you inferred.

[Chromascope3D]

I loved this movie. It kicked so much *** it ain't even fair.

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This is also the second movie this year that a character has been hinted to be the secret child of Harrison Ford before being revealed that they were mistaken. And that's great, I love the idea of people assuming that they're some secret link that destines them for greatness, and, even when finding out that that isn't true, and that they're actually nobodies, that they can still strive to be great anyway. I feel like this is a deconstruction we need more of in this day and age.

I also love that the Force feels mystical again, as opposed to just a simple bag of tricks with the same two or three tools in it.

It's so weird to be excited about Star Wars again, I love it.

[Dienekes]

Dienekes, that's not my intent. I think I'm right. I don't need to twist your words around to do that. But let me see if I can clear this up.

I think it's out of character for Luke to consider killing his nephew, even if for a second. I think it's out of character for most normal people, let alone a legendary hero like Luke. Let alone a hero that is distinguished for redeeming one of the worst villains in the galaxy. One of the strongest and most evil dark side users in the history of the galaxy.

Your response to that is to say that Luke has always been rash and impulsive. "Just like Luke always was" is what you said. This suggests very little change in the decades that have passed. So I don't think I'm twisting your words. You are equating his turning the lightsaber on and then turning it off at Ben's bedside, with his turning the lightsaber on and then turning it off in the throne room all those years ago.

I'm calling this a false equivalence, because it hasn't been shown that ten year old Ben is worthy of murder in the way that Darth Sidious and Darth Vader were. Especially given that they were at the head of a galactic empire at the time that was subjugating trillions of people.

I think your points fail in those regards. Ben is not Sidious or Vader. And if Luke is still rash and impulsive that he would consider killing a child, well, that's a problem. That needs to be explained. Saying that he's "an all around **** up" so it makes sense that he might consider killing Ben is saying that he hasn't changed in all those years, because you're using his actions in the past to justify his actions in the present.

Now, maybe it is the case that he hasn't changed at all. But then we're still arguing about whether the guy that left himself at the mercy of Darth Sidious to redeem his father is the kind of guy that might consider killing a ten year old boy.

First question before I go into the rest of this.

Where are you getting he's 10?

In the flashbacks, Ben is still played by Adam Driver, with no obvious make-up or cgi to make him younger.

Hell, when asked when Luke's academy was attacked Pablo Hidalgo said "less than 14 years ago." Adam Driver is 34 years old. Assuming Ben is around that age, which I don't see a reason why he wouldn't be, and the betrayal seems to have happened when he was 20 years old or older.

[Dr.Samurai]

What more do you want me to say?

What you said there is fine. I just wanted you to stop being a coward for a moment and actually support your opinion of the movie instead of calling everyone else out as fanboys and hero worshipers.

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As for the hero worship comment, yes. Get over yourself. Luke can make mistakes.

I can't roll my eyes hard enough. I see a trend with people that like ****ty movies. You have to attack the motive and intent behind critics instead of actually addressing the points being made.

Of course Luke can make mistakes. Remember when he left to face Vader and lost his hand and found himself dangling underneath the Cloud City? Remember when he fell through a pit trap and found himself facing a rancor? Luke is not perfect. He's not a god. No one is expecting him to be.

In an attempt to call me out as a hero worshiper, you are equating "I may have to kill this boy in cold blood" with "a mistake". And, you're very conspicuously ignoring the part where Luke's great act of heroism was to deliver himself to Sidious to move his father's heart to the light side.

This is about characterization, not hero worship.

You're twisting in knots trying to find some way to rationalize "Luke saw the darkness in Ren's heart and on instinct wanted to cut it out" because you cannot stand the fact that maybe your hero isn't perfect. Maybe he just made a mistake. These things happen.

I'm not twisting in knots, though your style of "argumentation" is a little nauseating.

If you want to reduce "almost deliberately murdered his nephew" to "a mistake", then that's cool. Obviously it doesn't bother you and it doesn't seem counter to Luke's character. I obviously can't change your mind on that and it doesn't seem that we'll even come to any sort of understanding because you seem to have me figured out already.

You and the other person who brought this up are at the point where you're reading into the actor's words to be like "no see he agrees this is bad like I do!" when it couldn't be further from the truth.

So you keep saying. Feel free to elaborate, because I'm not sure how I pretty much fundamentally disagree with every choice you’ve made for this character. Now, having said that, I have gotten it off my chest, and my job now is to take what you’ve created and do my best to realize your vision. is far from the truth.

And again... how weak of an attack. I was responding to someone bringing Mark Hamill up. I didn't use him as an argument. Please, stop guessing at my intentions, because you're **** at it and you're not half as clever as you think you are. If you want to discuss the movie, we can do that.

[Dr.Samurai]

First question before I go into the rest of this.

Where are you getting he's 10?

In the flashbacks, Ben is still played by Adam Driver, with no obvious make-up or cgi to make him younger.

Hell, when asked when Luke's academy was attacked Pablo Hidalgo said "less than 14 years ago." Adam Driver is 34 years old. Assuming Ben is around that age, which I don't see a reason why he wouldn't be, and the betrayal seems to have happened when he was 20 years old or older.

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Holy crap, I think you're right. Was it Adam Driver in the flashbacks? Doesn't Luke say "it was a scared little boy looking back at me" or something along those lines? Yeah, someone correct me, because maybe I'm way off on the age. It wouldn't make sense for him to be ten since he was leading the Knights of Ren.

EDIT: So the movie takes place in 34aby, and he was born 5aby, so he's 29, and if the attack happened 14 years ago he'd be around 15. Sorry for the confusion, not sure where I got 10 from.

[LaZodiac]

I mean I do just consider it a mistake. And from what I recall of the original trilogy, Luke wasn't there to sacrifice himself. He was there to redeem his father. Which included fighting Sidious. Also it'd be cool to link the interview, since otherwise I'm forced to assume you're reading into things.

I'm not a coward, I'm ****ing busy. I don't need to defend myself for liking a film you don't. I bring up hero worship because it's an outright theme of the film, that accepting failure exists and that your heroes aren't perfect is the main crux of the film. The fact that you're falling into that isn't meant as a personal attack, it's just a straight up true thing. I'm not trying to "beat" you, I'm just questioning your incredible dislike for a film that seems to stem from "I don't think Luke would ever consider killing a child".

For what it's worth, Luke used the force choke to kill those pig guards. The dude's not against killing, the hesitation came from the fact that it's family.

[Blackhawk748]

It starts with a really tense and well executed space battle that segues into what I felt was a very forboding and tense chase sequence over the course of around 18 hours in universe.

The chase was a joke, cuz i can name three different reasons why the Rebels should be dead.

1. The 6 Star Destroyers never fired when they came out of Hyperspace, it was all the Supremacy. As far as i can tell, there is no reason for this except that it would kill our protagonists, which is the FOs goal.

2. They should have been swarmed with TIEs. There are 6 Star Destroyers (and another 2 docked in the Supremacy) which have a grand total of 16 Wings of TIE fighters between them. Now, if a Wing means the same that it did for the Galactic Empire (and i have no reason to assume it doesnt) that is a grand total of 1152 TIE Fighters, as one wing is 6 squadrons and a squadron is 12 fighters. Considering the damage Kylo and his two wingmen did by themselves, the TIEs should have annihilated the Rebels.

3. The First Order could do a micro jump. Since the FO has no fuel constraints (and i hate that thats a thing now) they could have siply jumped to a point a parsec or two in front of the Rebels and turned around to hem them in. They have enough ships to do this with little trouble.

Im sure i could come up with more, but the point is the strategy of "chase them down till their out of fuel" was one of the worst ones possible and the only reason it was chosen is because the plot says that our heroes must be alive.

[GloatingSwine]

Your response to that is to say that Luke has always been rash and impulsive. "Just like Luke always was" is what you said. This suggests very little change in the decades that have passed. So I don't think I'm twisting your words. You are equating his turning the lightsaber on and then turning it off at Ben's bedside, with his turning the lightsaber on and then turning it off in the throne room all those years ago.

Luke did occasionally give in to fear and anger in the original trilogy. In Empire when he goes into the cave he strikes out at the illusion of Vader in fear and finds himself in the mask, and in Jedi when he's fighting Vader he clearly gives in to anger which gives him the strength to win and dealing the same wound Vader did to him brings him out of it.

And that's what happened between him and Kylo. He gave in to fear for an instant, then it passed and he resisted the dark again, but this time the damage was really done.

[Chromascope3D]

Holy crap, I think you're right. Was it Adam Driver in the flashbacks? Doesn't Luke say "it was a scared little boy looking back at me" or something along those lines? Yeah, someone correct me, because maybe I'm way off on the age. It wouldn't make sense for him to be ten since he was leading the Knights of Ren.

It was Adam Driver. Luke's comment was about the look in Ben's eyes revealing him to just be a scared little boy, as opposed to the dark evil Luke was afraid that he had already become, not that Luke was about to pull an Anakin on a "youngling."

[LaZodiac]

The chase was a joke, cuz i can name three different reasons why the Rebels should be dead.

1. The 6 Star Destroyers never fired when they came out of Hyperspace, it was all the Supremacy. As far as i can tell, there is no reason for this except that it would kill our protagonists, which is the FOs goal.

2. They should have been swarmed with TIEs. There are 6 Star Destroyers (and another 2 docked in the Supremacy) which have a grand total of 16 Wings of TIE fighters between them. Now, if a Wing means the same that it did for the Galactic Empire (and i have no reason to assume it doesnt) that is a grand total of 1152 TIE Fighters, as one wing is 6 squadrons and a squadron is 12 fighters. Considering the damage Kylo and his two wingmen did by themselves, the TIEs should have annihilated the Rebels.

3. The First Order could do a micro jump. Since the FO has no fuel constraints (and i hate that thats a thing now) they could have siply jumped to a point a parsec or two in front of the Rebels and turned around to hem them in. They have enough ships to do this with little trouble.

Im sure i could come up with more, but the point is the strategy of "chase them down till their out of fuel" was one of the worst ones possible and the only reason it was chosen is because the plot says that our heroes must be alive.

Not sure what you're getting at with the first comment. They spend basically the whole move firing on them.

As for the other two points, they're conserving resources. They're not that large an organization, not enough to take over an entire galaxy. Wasting resources is a thing. Also, if it wasn't clear, Hux is enjoying this chase. He knows he can wait them out and playfully pick their ships apart at his leisure, and he's enjoying it. So why end it now? He's won, he can wait.

Also, haaah. Getting upset at space ships having to worry about fuel. I don't get what this is a complaint in the slightest.

It wasn't chosen because it means our heroes live. It was chosen because Hux is a sadistic ****er that wants to torture them slowly with the inevitibility of their death. And it backfired on him hard.

[Blackhawk748]

Not sure what you're getting at with the first comment. They spend basically the whole move firing on them.

As for the other two points, they're conserving resources. They're not that large an organization, not enough to take over an entire galaxy. Wasting resources is a thing. Also, if it wasn't clear, Hux is enjoying this chase. He knows he can wait them out and playfully pick their ships apart at his leisure, and he's enjoying it. So why end it now? He's won, he can wait.

Also, haaah. Getting upset at space ships having to worry about fuel. I don't get what this is a complaint in the slightest.

It wasn't chosen because it means our heroes live. It was chosen because Hux is a sadistic ****er that wants to torture them slowly with the inevitibility of their death. And it backfired on him hard.

One ship. The Supremacy is the only one firing, and it does nothing. And the shots arc. In Space.

The opening crawl says that they are conquering the galaxy, so apprantly they can and they made Starkiller base and the Supremacy. Ya, resources are real scare for the FO.

I dont remember him looking on with sadistic glee, though that may be my inner Thrawn facepalming during it. Also Hux is a lousy villain and i've written him off at this point, hes not threatening.

Because it has literally never been a thing before now, just increasing the plot contrivance.

[LaZodiac]

One ship. The Supremacy is the only one firing, and it does nothing. And the shots arc. In Space.

The opening crawl says that they are conquering the galaxy, so apprantly they can and they made Starkiller base and the Supremacy. Ya, resources are real scare for the FO.

I dont remember him looking on with sadistic glee, though that may be my inner Thrawn facepalming during it. Also Hux is a lousy villain and i've written him off at this point, hes not threatening.

Because it has literally never been a thing before now, just increasing the plot contrivance.

I'd have to watch it again but I'm pretty sure they weren't arcing. Even if they were, I imagine a couple reasons why they would be. Gravity exists in space.

The Starkiller Base is also their only real "big thing" I feel. The rest of it is just space boats. Strong ones, yes, but just space boats.

That's the point. Hux is a screaming man baby nazi who really wants to pull the wings off this fly and all that succeeded in was ruining his assured victory. I find him a well written villain, and fairly intimidating with what he can ORDER, if not what he can do himself.

I mean first of all, the hyperdrive leaking fuel is the entire crux of the plot for Episode 1. Secondly, "the space ships have fuel" is not a contrivance. It's never been a problem before because it's never been a problem before. Now it is because it IS a problem. Vehicles having fuel makes perfect sense.

[BRC]

Because it has literally never been a thing before now, just increasing the plot contrivance.

It has been a thing. Maybe not in any of the movies, but various spin-off shows and the like have regularly established the Starships do, in fact, run on Fuel (I recall quite a few episodes of Rebels based around the challenge of keeping the rebel fleet supplied with fuel, or attacking a refinery providing fuel to the Empire).

And even if they hadn't, of all the things to complain about with the chase sequence, "Starships run on Fuel" isn't exactly what I would call a Contrivance. The fact that nobody has mentioned Starship Fuel before on-screen doesn't automatically mean that Starships didn't refuel.

We never see anybody go to the bathroom either. Does that mean that nobody goes to the bathroom in Star Wars?

[Blackhawk748]

It has been a thing. Maybe not in any of the movies, but various spin-off shows and the like have regularly established the Starships do, in fact, run on Fuel (I recall quite a few episodes of Rebels based around the challenge of keeping the rebel fleet supplied with fuel, or attacking a refinery providing fuel to the Empire).

And even if they hadn't, of all the things to complain about with the chase sequence, "Starships run on Fuel" isn't exactly what I would call a Contrivance. The fact that nobody has mentioned Starship Fuel before on-screen doesn't automatically mean that Starships didn't refuel.

We never see anybody go to the bathroom either. Does that mean that nobody goes to the bathroom in Star Wars?

Except the only starships to ever have fuel mentioned is the little ones. Fighters, Transports, things that land on the ground. As far as i was ever aware, the big ones didnt use fuel, the probably used some sort of self sustaining fusion.

[LaZodiac]

Except the only starships to ever have fuel mentioned is the little ones. Fighters, Transports, things that land on the ground. As far as i was ever aware, the big ones didnt use fuel, the probably used some sort of self sustaining fusion.

I mean that's on you for assuming a gigantic space boat ran on fairy dust.

[Dienekes]

Holy crap, I think you're right. Was it Adam Driver in the flashbacks? Doesn't Luke say "it was a scared little boy looking back at me" or something along those lines? Yeah, someone correct me, because maybe I'm way off on the age. It wouldn't make sense for him to be ten since he was leading the Knights of Ren.

EDIT: So the movie takes place in 34aby, and he was born 5aby, so he's 29, and if the attack happened 14 years ago he'd be around 15. Sorry for the confusion, not sure where I got 10 from.

Yeah, so the quote I’m referencing was after TFA which basically said, ‘we don’t have the entire timeline plotted yet, but the destruction of Luke’s academy was definitely less than 14 years ago.’

So it could be anywhere from 13 years and 364 days ago to the day before TFA.

With the flashback I don’t think Ben looks young enough to portray anyone younger than their 20s and definitely not a 15 year old.

Until we get some author clarification let’s split the difference and say 18.

Does this change your mind on the situation here?

[Peelee]

As for the hero worship comment, yes. Get over yourself. Luke can make mistakes. You're twisting in knots trying to find some way to rationalize "Luke saw the darkness in Ren's heart and on instinct wanted to cut it out" because you cannot stand the fact that maybe your hero isn't perfect. Maybe he just made a mistake. These things happen.

He debated murdering a sleeping child. I am given cause to wonder what kind of mistakes you allow for your heroes to get away with.

[Rakaydos]

I mean, he was like...six feet away when she stopped him. I think he'd have made it just fine. And if it wouldn't have stopped the cannon, then why the hell did they attack in the first place? According to them, stopping the cannon was entirely the point. I don't really know exactly how, because the saltspeeders didn't seem like they came with any great plan to begin with, but slamming into it seems as good a guess as any.

It was a Poe Dameron plan. We saw how well those worked out over the course ofvthis movie. Fortunately, Poe realized this himself before too many more people would die.

[Cikomyr]

He debated murdering a sleeping child. I am given cause to wonder what kind of mistakes you allow for your heroes to get away with.

Would you kill Baby Hitler if you had the chance?

Thats the very question Luke struggled with. Because he knows how dangerous and mass-murdery a Dark Force Ben would become.

He feared becoming yet another Obi-wan. A man whose teachings failed so badly he unleashed a scourge upon the galaxy, dooming millions to die and suffer.

That is what was going through Luke's mind. I don't blame him a moment of weakness. I would have blamed him for acting on it.