Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End

[Forum Explorer]

And is going purely primaris dark angels (or its succesor) is tactically a sound idea?

as far as i read, Dark Angels have very special fluff and aparantly use a lot of old tech, but i can't tell what that means for the game itself. Are they great at shooting, more melee focussed or very defensive?

basically, is my idea to start as them actually a good idea?

They've got a stratagem that amps up Hellblasters. Also, most Primaris are shooty, and have good range. Dark Angels don't want to move so they can get their reroll 1s. Dark Angels are basically shooty.

I don't know about going pure Primaris though. You might need some melee units. Though maybe you could get away with that by using Aggressors? It depends how tough your meta is.

[Cheesegear]

And is going purely primaris dark angels (or its succesor) is tactically a sound idea?

Not really. All of the Primaris Characters are basically terrible, with the singular exception of the Primaris Lieutenants.
Unfortunately, Dark Angels have an issue, that is the Ravenwing Talonmaster. If I were looking for a unit to hand out re-roll 1s To Wound, a Primaris Lieutenant is not my first choice.

Intercessors; Good.
Aggressors; Not good. Not bad. Depends who you're up against.
Reivers; Bad.
Inceptors; One of the best units in the book. They don't really fit into the Dark Angels' playstyle. But that's okay. They're that good they don't really want to stand still.
Hellblasters; Whilst Inceptors are 'one of the best', Hellblasters are the best unit in the book.

Are they great at shooting [...] defensive?

They're good at static shooting. If your opponents are very fast, and can close distances, or you're in a meta where fast-moving units are King (i.e; Maelstrom), you might be in trouble.
If your goal is to say, play rocket tag against non-Commander spam Tau, or Necrons, or Ultramarines, on a wide open board, you'll do great.

basically, is my idea to start as them actually a good idea?

It's fine. They're shooty Space Marines. It's hard to screw up (but very difficult to pull off well).
The Space Marine Core List will allow you to play Dark Angels pretty well. Gets you to 1250, which is a real points level that some people play at, which means you can get games. Folds fairly easily into 1000, and scales up well into higher points (Black Knights & Azrael).

[Science Officer]

I've played a few more and larger games, and have a few more thoughts about the game.

1. Wow there's a lot of Fighting.
The internet gave me the impression that there'd be a lot more shooting. Instead, I see mostly 1st or 2nd turn charges and about half my shooting is overwatch. No shooting because either my units are in combat, they've fallen back, or the unit I want to shoot is in combat.
I also play Infinity, which has a focus on using cover and managing lines of sight. In 40K close combat seems to serve that purpose. You can protect your units from shooting by being in combat.

2. +1 to Wound seems pretty strong
I think there is an unusual interaction with the new wound chart and effects giving +1 to wound. It would be neat to quantify it, and compare it to the previous to-wound chart, but I get the feeling it ends up giving a much greater bonus in terms of equivalent increased Strength than it used to in many circumstances.

I might write a greatly under-qualified guide to AdMech soon, if anyone would appreciate that.

[bluntpencil]

Is it just me, or is the Dark Angels Company Champion not broken?

44 points, and it whacks in melee at S7, with 3 attacks for D3 damage? 4 Wounds, and a 5++? Cheaper, and more survivable, than a Terminator, and better in melee by quite a large margin.

[Forum Explorer]

I've played a few more and larger games, and have a few more thoughts about the game.

1. Wow there's a lot of Fighting.
The internet gave me the impression that there'd be a lot more shooting. Instead, I see mostly 1st or 2nd turn charges and about half my shooting is overwatch. No shooting because either my units are in combat, they've fallen back, or the unit I want to shoot is in combat.
I also play Infinity, which has a focus on using cover and managing lines of sight. In 40K close combat seems to serve that purpose. You can protect your units from shooting by being in combat.

2. +1 to Wound seems pretty strong
I think there is an unusual interaction with the new wound chart and effects giving +1 to wound. It would be neat to quantify it, and compare it to the previous to-wound chart, but I get the feeling it ends up giving a much greater bonus in terms of equivalent increased Strength than it used to in many circumstances.

I might write a greatly under-qualified guide to AdMech soon, if anyone would appreciate that.

1. There are lots of ways to get first turn charges, but that's part of the reason why cheap units are so valuable, since they can block said charges by simply absorbing them and dying. It also makes fly really good since then you just need to survive melee and you can still shoot.

2. It's incredibly strong.

Go for it! I found making a guide really expanded what I knew about my own army since going through each unit and thinking about it critically before writing a response taught me a lot.

Is it just me, or is the Dark Angels Company Champion not broken?

44 points, and it whacks in melee at S7, with 3 attacks for D3 damage? 4 Wounds, and a 5++? Cheaper, and more survivable, than a Terminator, and better in melee by quite a large margin.

not broken?

Anyways, Terminators are pretty bad, so I wouldn't be surprised if something was out competing them pretty badly.

[Cheesegear]

it whacks in melee at S7, with 3 attacks for D3 damage?

And how are you getting into Melee before/on Turn 2 - with an ideal target - exactly?

Posted from phone.

[Brookshw]

It dawns on me that Apocalypse games are probably the only time Pheromone Trail actually has a use. Normally you need to pay a tax to get something in reserves for the strategem to tap, but along with the tax you get your delivery method, leaving the strategem redundant. Buuut....w/ Apoc I can get lots of things into reserve tax free (depending).

Guess I'll take what I can get

[Cheesegear]

Buuut....w/ Apoc I can get lots of things into reserve tax free (depending).

Oh nooo...I accidentally took too long on my Deployment. Looks like all these units (units that definitely want to be in Reserve) have to go in Reserve. Oh nooo...I'm such a fool. Uhhh...Oooh. I make so many mistakes. Oh nooo....

[Brookshw]

Oh nooo...I accidentally took too long on my Deployment. Looks like all these units (units that definitely want to be in Reserve) have to go in Reserve. Oh nooo...I'm such a fool. Uhhh...Oooh. I make so many mistakes. Oh nooo....

Such a tragedy

[Cheesegear]

I might write a greatly under-qualified guide to AdMech soon, if anyone would appreciate that.

I could've sworn that I already did that...
Turns out I have two .txts on my pooter.
- One's a Guide to AdMech, that has only just past the Troops,
- The other is a Building on a Budget.

I held off on posting them 'cause Chapter Approved was coming out...And now it's February.

[Sinewmire]

I've played a few more and larger games, and have a few more thoughts about the game.

I might write a greatly under-qualified guide to AdMech soon, if anyone would appreciate that.

I would! I'm still putting together my Skitarii, but I'd value the transmit-thoughts of a fellow Magus so that I may upload your pict-data and combat doctrines through the noospheric network.

[Brookshw]

Skitarii

Speaking of which, am I the only one who finds them 1) among the more obnoxious models to assemble, and 2) begging for a post-apocalyptic color scheme in honor of the radioactive hellhole they come from?

[Blackhawk748]

Speaking of which, am I the only one who finds them 1) among the more obnoxious models to assemble, and 2) begging for a post-apocalyptic color scheme in honor of the radioactive hellhole they come from?

I rather like the Skitarii, the Ruststalkers drive me friggin nuts. And yes, do that.

[Saambell]

What size battle area is best for a 750 point per side battle? Setting up a few games with my brother and due to time and space we went with 750 as the point limit, but im not sure how much room is best. I feel 6'x4' is too much, but the sheet that came with Know No Fear is too small. Is a 4'x4' area a good amount?

[Cheesegear]

Is a 4'x4' area a good amount?

Affirmative.

[LansXero]

What size battle area is best for a 750 point per side battle? Setting up a few games with my brother and due to time and space we went with 750 as the point limit, but im not sure how much room is best. I feel 6'x4' is too much, but the sheet that came with Know No Fear is too small. Is a 4'x4' area a good amount?

Can confirm from experience that it is (and also, its spelled out in the battle primer). But it also depends on how you distribute terrain.

[Saambell]

Can confirm from experience that it is (and also, its spelled out in the battle primer). But it also depends on how you distribute terrain.

Will likely be using leftover kit boxes for buildings. We have plans to build some ruins out of leftover underfloor from a home renovation we did. But for the time, we only have vehicle and troops boxes as usable stuff for terrain. I guess we can toss in a few pop cans or Lego barricades. Given those listed items for terrain, how many would be a good amount?

[Cheesegear]

Given those listed items for terrain, how many would be a good amount?

On a 4x4' table, you're going to want at least 1x1' (total) footprints' worth of terrain. No more than 2x2' (total) of terrain, unless one of you is going full shooty and the other player has no way of closing Melee distance. Remember, in 8th Ed., terrain isn't so much for a Cover save, as it is for Line of Sight blocking (stupid Eldar), so you want some. But too much LoS blocking vastly swings the game in a Melee army's favour.

[Cheesegear]

Had another classic experience today.

Was playing against Orks, in my list, I have two Land Raider Crusaders, one with Chronus, and a Techmarine.
My Ork opponent is having a tough time dealing with them, and making the odd comment here and there.

Eldar player rocks up, looks at me, looks at the table, scoffs, and asks me why I even bother with Land Raiders.
The Ork opponent looks at him "Are you kidding?", I explain that they have 16 Wounds, T8 and a 2+ Save, with Chronus and Guilliman and a Techmarine, they're pretty strong.
Eldar players drops the best line ever "Well my Dark Reapers could destroy both of them in one turn..."

Ork player is like "Yep, good one ****head." and goes back to playing the game.
I ignore Eldar player and go back to Land Raiders that heal D3+1 Wounds per turn.

Comparing Land Raiders to the best unit in the game. What's even the point?

[Turalisj]

Had another classic experience today.

Was playing against Orks, in my list, I have two Land Raider Crusaders, one with Chronus, and a Techmarine.
My Ork opponent is having a tough time dealing with them, and making the odd comment here and there.

Eldar player rocks up, looks at me, looks at the table, scoffs, and asks me why I even bother with Land Raiders.
The Ork opponent looks at him "Are you kidding?", I explain that they have 16 Wounds, T8 and a 2+ Save, with Chronus and Guilliman and a Techmarine, they're pretty strong.
Eldar players drops the best line ever "Well my Dark Reapers could destroy both of them in one turn..."

Ork player is like "Yep, good one ****head." and goes back to playing the game.
I ignore Eldar player and go back to Land Raiders that heal D3+1 Wounds per turn.

Comparing Land Raiders anything to the best unit army in the game. What's even the point?

Fixed that for you, still agree.

[Cheesegear]

Fixed that for you, still agree.

I played the guy last week...He literally ran the LVO winner, with Proxies. I should've quit. But here are some few choice quotes;

Proxies. Not just wargear... Which sometimes I'm fine with, because GW boxes are sometimes so asinine that they don't include wargear in the box (All my Sanguinary Guard have Swords, even though some of them have Axes, it's a limitation of the kit). But, this guy used different models as other models...That is, his Rangers and Fire Dragons, were, of course, used as Dark Reapers. But, it's fine though, 'cause Dark Reapers are just going to get nerfed, so isn't it lucky he hasn't spent money on them? Did I mention that he was using Proxies to recreate the LVO winning list?

"My list isn't optimised, because I've taken Shadow Spectres, instead of Shining Spears." This was fine by me, as Forge World did nerf Shadow Spectres. But not nearly by as much as they should've been. But, really what bothered me was the quote, itself. He honestly believed that Shadow Spectres, instead of Shining Spears, significantly increased his chances of losing. A 10/10 choice is 'bad', because it isn't 11/10.

"You have to use your Act of Faith at the start of the turn. It's now Movement." I know. "No, but I'm saying that you can't use your Act of Faith this turn." I know. "No, but, you have to remember that your Act of Faith is at the start of your turn." ...No, idiot. I chose not to use it. I didn't forget about it at all. But, it felt a lot like that douche at LVO, trying to 'get' someone with a rules violation. I mean, let's say that I did forget to use Act of Faith? It's a casual game. Most people familiar with Celestine would know what you're supposed to do. Maybe, like, wait until the Shooting phase, when I realise, myself, that I forgot to use Act of Faith, and call myself an idiot. Rather than my opponent point out that I'm an idiot. Except the whole point was that I didn't forget about it at all, and I'm not going to send Celestine 24" up the board on Turn 1, unsupported, against an Eldar gunline.

"It's not in range, but we'll say that it is." This was in regards to his liberal use of 'wobbly model syndrome'. He decided that he wanted to put his model on top of a (thin) wall, somewhere his model definitely would never have balanced in a million years, not even for five seconds. Normal people would simply call this impassable terrain, or, y'know...A wall. Something you could move over, but not end your Movement on, because you know...A model can't go there. His reasoning that because his model was metal, and painted, he didn't want to 'risk it', by balancing his model on the wall, therefore, he didn't actually have to, therefore, wobbly model syndrome went into effect without him even having trying to place the model in the first place.
(For those playing at home, Wobbly Model Syndrome comes into effect, after you've actually placed the model for the first time)

I drew Master the Warp. I didn't have any Psykers in my list. Not when I drew it, not when we started the game. I never had any Psykers with which to achieve the Objective, ever. Some people - and everyone in my meta - would say that that's a free Discard. Some people actually play that way. An Objective is literally impossible, Discard. This **** forced me to pay 2 CPs. No-one in my meta forces 2 CPs to Discard a card they literally can't achieve. It's not like this guy is new, either. I've paid 2 CPs to Discard Objectives many times (usually Domination), I run Guilliman - sometimes - it's not like I don't have points to spare. But, had I known that 'free Discards' weren't things that existed in this game, my list would have been made completely differently. Because if you can't Discard cards like Master the Warp, then a Psyker has to be in your army. I asked him what Tau or Necron players are supposed to do about that Objective. His response was "Tau and Necrons aren't very good."

It was at this point I was getting a headache, playing games of toy soldiers.

Many red flags, all in the same game.
It was then, that I resolved to talk to the guy as little as possible, and never have a game with him again.
...So, basically just a classic Eldar player.

[Blackhawk748]

Dude sounds like a tool

[Turalisj]

Sounds like a"that guy" who tends to ruin everyone's fun.

[LansXero]

The guy sounds like a douchebag, but this isnt uncommon behavior in TCG players. Not because they are also douchebags, but it sounds a lot like a pre-tournament testing game: pointing out rules missed, proxying up top lists, sticking to rules they know will be enforced, even if they never are when done casually, etc. So those who are used to testing that way tend to have it carry over into casual games, even if they dont mean to.

[Wraith]

It was at this point I was getting a headache, playing games of toy soldiers.

Many red flags, all in the same game.

Hmmm no... No, I don't get it. I haven't played 40k in any edition in just over 2 years now, but even I am not so desperate for a game that I would have put up with that.

"You've forgotten to use..."
"I haven't forgotten anything, I'm saving it for another turn. You play your army, and I'll play mine."

"We'll call that in range..."
"No we won't, because it's not IN range. Read the tape measure; if he needs to be closer, move him closer. If he can't get past the wall, then the wall is clearly in his way."

"I have a stratagem that I cannot, nor ever will, be able to complete so I'm taking a free dicard."
"I'll let you do it if you pay 2CP..."
"That wasn't a question. I'm taking it, so either finish your move or leave the table."

The specifics are different, but these are paraphrases of conversations that I have had in store. I genuinely don't understand why you put it with it CG; no game is worth that many grey hairs.

[LansXero]

Hmmm no... No, I don't get it. I haven't played 40k in any edition in just over 2 years now, but even I am not so desperate for a game that I would have put up with that.

"You've forgotten to use..."
"I haven't forgotten anything, I'm saving it for another turn. You play your army, and I'll play mine."

"We'll call that in range..."
"No we won't, because it's not IN range. Read the tape measure; if he needs to be closer, move him closer. If he can't get past the wall, then the wall is clearly in his way."

"I have a stratagem that I cannot, nor ever will, be able to complete so I'm taking a free dicard."
"I'll let you do it if you pay 2CP..."
"That wasn't a question. I'm taking it, so either finish your move or leave the table."

The specifics are different, but these are paraphrases of conversations that I have had in store. I genuinely don't understand why you put it with it CG; no game is worth that many grey hairs.

So you get to do whatever you want and people should just take it or leave? I mean, yes, but why even have rules at that point then? You could just as well go 'so I win' 'what? why?' 'it wasnt a question, I win, so finish your turn or leave'.

[Forum Explorer]

Hmmm no... No, I don't get it. I haven't played 40k in any edition in just over 2 years now, but even I am not so desperate for a game that I would have put up with that.

"You've forgotten to use..."
"I haven't forgotten anything, I'm saving it for another turn. You play your army, and I'll play mine."

This is the only one I see and do, because my opponents do frequently forget their stuff or the rules. Sometimes multiple times in the same game. So stuff like 'remember, you cast catalyst on that unit' or 'did you want to charge with those guys?' is something I say all the time.

[Wraith]

So you get to do whatever you want and people should just take it or leave? I mean, yes, but why even have rules at that point then? You could just as well go 'so I win' 'what? why?' 'it wasnt a question, I win, so finish your turn or leave'.

My opponent spends ~2 hours displaying cumulative behaviours such as actively cheating and rules lawyering, and I'm in the wrong for invoking a well known and perfectly logical house rule once? Yes, what you are saying is clearly a reasonable and equivalent example to what I was describing.

This is the only one I see and do, because my opponents do frequently forget their stuff or the rules. Sometimes multiple times in the same game. So stuff like 'remember, you cast catalyst on that unit' or 'did you want to charge with those guys?' is something I say all the time.

What you are describing is polite and very sportsmanlike; what it sounds like *he* was doing was harassing because he thought Cheesegear was more stupid than him.

I inferred from Cheesegear's post and his repetition of the phrase "I know" that he made it clear he understood but his opponent continued to pester him about the same thing multiple times in the same turn. If Cheesegear wishes to correct me, I shall gratefully receive it as such.

[Hootman]

This is the only one I see and do, because my opponents do frequently forget their stuff or the rules.

Sure, but there's a world of difference between "Oh, hey, you totally used <Special Ability> on that guy, he gets <Additional Effect>," and what it sounds like that guy was doing with CG. That one sounded like "Hey! Hey! You forgot to activate <Special Ability>! Haha! Now you can't use <Effect>! Ha! Suck it! Even if you WANT to back up and have used it retroactively, you CAN'T! So HA! TAKE THAT!", which you will likely agree is quite different. Allowing to one's opponent to fix minor mistakes, or gently pointing out such mistakes so they are less likely to make them in the future, is just good play etiquette.

Mocking them for a screw-up is not. (And CG even did it on purpose, so it makes them presumptuous as well as rude.)

So you get to do whatever you want and people should just take it or leave?

I believe the sentiment was that CG's opponent sounds like they were extremely rude and frustrating to play against, and that Wraith wouldn't have put up with that sort of thing. A little bit "I would have been much more curt with such an opponent, should I have the misfortune to play against them" combined with a pinch of "Bro, you KNOW our local house-rule for this sort of situation, and you KNOW you didn't ask for a stricter game up-front. If you had wanted to play by Real Tournament Rules then you should have stated so before we began so that I could properly prepare myself and my army."

At least, that's how I read it. YMMV, and they may have intended it differently.

[Wraith]

A little bit "I would have been much more curt with such an opponent, should I have the misfortune to play against them" combined with a pinch of "Bro, you KNOW our local house-rule for this sort of situation, and you KNOW you didn't ask for a stricter game up-front. If you had wanted to play by Real Tournament Rules then you should have stated so before we began so that I could properly prepare myself and my army."

At least, that's how I read it.[/SPOILER]

Thank you Hootman, that is more clear than I originally managed to express myself.

I wish to clarify, I'm not a complete and insufferable ******* who runs roughshod over the social contract and kicks people off the table for a minor mistake, but Cheesegear's post indicated to me that he knows of this guy from previous encounters; that he is obnoxious, does not play fair and does not himself obey the social contract.

His behaviour was known to CG, and it continued throughout the game. In CG's shoes I probably would have chosen not to play the guy, but had I done so I would have been far less likely to tolerate his problem behaviours because a) that would adversely affect my own enjoyment of the game and b) if he doesn't learn to tone it down with me, who knows what bulls*** he's trying and can account for it, he certainly won't do so when he plays less experienced or less confident players where he is in a position to put them off the game permanently.

I'm not the "Store Mom" or the "40k Police" who has to spend their time looking out for ne'er-do-wells and accosting them publicly, but I like to think that I do my bit to set a good example and keep people from going overboard in ways that could upset someone with thinner skin than I.