Mordenkainen's Tome: what monsters are in it?

[Beechgnome]

That's a pretty out here claim. Of course they can exist in the same plane, there is nothing preventing variations when they're on different planets that obey slightly different physico-magical laws.

Plus you're ignoring the existence of the "default setting", which is different from Faerun.

You may say that it sounds like a disingenuous justification to you, but you have no evidence that it is a fact, so it's just insulting the designers for a creative decision you don't like.

Also, Regitnui, what are you even talking about? D&D 5e Elves and Dwarves don't particularly hate each other, especially not "because Tolkien".

Outside from the specific history of the campaign and personal opinions, they just have theological and cultural differences that they can find annoying in the other.


If you want to criticise something and be taken seriously, knowing about it would help, just saying.

Anyway, this derailling has gone on long enough. The Mordenkainen's arrives today in some stores, right? We'll soon have all the answers.

We have a month yet. Let's use this month for any number of passtimes, but let not these discussions include the 'how WOTC handles setting neutrality', a back and forth as endless as an Astral Dreadnaught's tail.

[Unoriginal]

I think you are a month early.

link

You're right. Well, if patience is a virtue, the hype's certainly teaching me to sin.

[EvilAnagram]

That's a pretty out here claim. Of course they can exist in the same plane, there is nothing preventing variations when they're on different planets that obey slightly different physico-magical laws.

How can different places on the same plane obey different fundamental laws about reality?

I guess the term is a bit vague and open to interpretation, but I can't see two places in which magic behaves in a fundamentally different manner (Dark Sun and Faerun) as being part of the same plane. In one, magic drains life force, and in the other it doesn't.

Plus you're ignoring the existence of the "default setting", which is different from Faerun.

The default setting in 5e is basically just Faerun with eraser marks. There's nothing wrong with that. 3.5 had Greyhawk as the default, and that worked out well for the game.

You may say that it sounds like a disingenuous justification to you, but you have no evidence that it is a fact, so it's just insulting the designers for a creative decision you don't like.

They only started bringing it up after they abandoned any material relating to specific settings, and they only rely on that talking point when they're bringing up how a specific piece of narrowly focused lore is actually widely applicable.

The company has obviously made a financial decision not to pursue campaign guides, which is fine. I wish they hadn't, but capitalism makes demands of companies. However, pretending that it's a creative decision after the fact is disingenuous. I don't need documentation by WotC to deduce that, and it's not just insulting the designers. It's an apt description of their behavior.

[Millstone85]

Going by the neogi entry in VGtM, I expect MToF to have star spawn of Acamar, Caiphon, Gibbeth, and Hadar.

Acamar is "a dead star of utter inky nothingness that devours other stars that draw too close" (4e MM2 p196), essentially a fantasy black hole. Its spawn is called the maw of Acamar.

"As times grow hard [...] Caiphon grows bright" (4e MM3 p185), making itself a star to wish upon. Its spawn, the emissary of Caiphon, is a deceiver whose helpful guidance leads to more ruin.

Gibbeth is a maddening star. Its spawn is called the scion of Gibbeth and "no two observers can agree on its actual appearance" (4e MM2 p197). I am getting something of an It vibe here.

Hadar is the "blood-red ember" of an once bright star. "A herald of Hadar is an avatar of Hadar's dying gasps" (4e MM2 p195). Well, I am surprised. With the spells and such, Hadar is the one I remembered as a black hole.

Others "stars" I would like to see return are Allabar and Ulban.

Allabar is basically Marvel's Ego the Living Planet. It is also known as the Opener of the Way, because it helps other stars send their spawn. Amusingly, the 4e MM3 actually tried to stat Allabar itself.

Ulban is a comet. Its spawn, found in the 4e MM3, is just called the spawn of Ulban, and accordingly is a generic evil tentacle guy. Dragon#381 did something much more interesting when it described Ulban as a warlock patron. The thing is supposedly from the future and trying to avert the end of everything, by all means.

In the interview about star spawn in 5e, Matt Sernett and Chris Perkins were asked if such stars could be seen from all worlds. Perkins gave a long exaggerated er. I hope MToF offers possible ways this could work. A crystal-sphere-hopping Allabar, maybe?

I guess the term is a bit vague and open to interpretation, but I can't see two places in which magic behaves in a fundamentally different manner (Dark Sun and Faerun) as being part of the same plane.

You are right that it is open to interpretation. The crystal spheres could be seen as different material planes, different layers of the same material plane, or different material structures in what should really be called the Plane of Phlogiston.

Even without using Spelljammer concepts, I have no problem with two distant planets having different rules of magic. I guess I see magic more as an energy lifeform than as a force of physics, so it feels right to me that an alien world would have alien magic.

In any case, the PHB and DMG both present Athas and Toril as "worlds of the Material Plane". Nothing here about a prime material plane and secondary material planes, in 5e lore it is just "the" Material Plane.

[Envyus]

How can different places on the same plane obey different fundamental laws about reality?

I guess the term is a bit vague and open to interpretation, but I can't see two places in which magic behaves in a fundamentally different manner (Dark Sun and Faerun) as being part of the same plane. In one, magic drains life force, and in the other it doesn't.


The default setting in 5e is basically just Faerun with eraser marks. There's nothing wrong with that. 3.5 had Greyhawk as the default, and that worked out well for the game.


They only started bringing it up after they abandoned any material relating to specific settings, and they only rely on that talking point when they're bringing up how a specific piece of narrowly focused lore is actually widely applicable.

The company has obviously made a financial decision not to pursue campaign guides, which is fine. I wish they hadn't, but capitalism makes demands of companies. However, pretending that it's a creative decision after the fact is disingenuous. I don't need documentation by WotC to deduce that, and it's not just insulting the designers. It's an apt description of their behavior.

Athas is actually outright stated to be part of the same material plane back in 2e. Someone criticizing the Harmonium makes comparison to their actions as similar to the actions of the Sorcerer Kings that turned Athas into a hellhole of a material plane world.

Even ignoring that it's clear this book is not FR exclusive given that its a Greyhawk Wizard on the cover of the book.

[EvilAnagram]

Athas is actually outright stated to be part of the same material plane back in 2e. Someone criticizing the Harmonium makes comparison to their actions as similar to the actions of the Sorcerer Kings that turned Athas into a hellhole of a material plane world.

Isn't Harmonium a Planescape faction? You know, the crossover setting all about crossing the planes?

Even ignoring that it's clear this book is not FR exclusive given that its a Greyhawk Wizard on the cover of the book.

True, but my criticism is that they're trying to liberally apply an FR coating to all of the D&D settings. It's attempting to force all of the cosmology and races into boxes of, "Like FR, but..." rather than independent entities that stand on their own.

Edit: On second thought, I'd rather not bring FR into it too much My objection is that they are trying to genericize all of their settings with a filter based off of a popular setting. That sucks because the highlights some settings are in how much they differ from the more popular ones. It has nothing to do with the value of FR or GH.

snip

You make some good points.

That said, I don't see how it benefits the settings to have them pushed into that box. They are unlike each other, so forcing them to be cosmically related seems ridiculous when Athas never seemed to have anything to do with the greater cosmology of D&D, and plenty of setting have entirely separate cosmologies.

[Envyus]

Isn't Harmonium a Planescape faction? You know, the crossover setting all about crossing the planes?


True, but my criticism is that they're trying to liberally apply an FR coating to all of the D&D settings. It's attempting to force all of the cosmology and races into boxes of, "Like FR, but..." rather than independent entities that stand on their own.

Edit: On second thought, I'd rather not bring FR into it too much My objection is that they are trying to genericize all of their settings with a filter based off of a popular setting. That sucks because the highlights some settings are in how much they differ from the more popular ones. It has nothing to do with the value of FR or GH.


You make some good points.

That said, I don't see how it benefits the settings to have them pushed into that box. They are unlike each other, so forcing them to be cosmically related seems ridiculous when Athas never seemed to have anything to do with the greater cosmology of D&D, and plenty of setting have entirely separate cosmologies.

Yes and FR was one of the first settings linked to Planescape. And Planescape is pretty much how all the settings are linked. And as it shows all the settings have been cosmically related since 2e.

You clearly don't understand FR or D&D itself too much if you think they are trying to apply an FR coating to all D&D settings. When this simply is not true. This stuff is generic D&D, settings like Greyhawk and FR use the generic D&D Lore more or less wholesale. While other settings make changes here and there. Pretty much it's the opposite, D&D does not take after FR, FR takes after D&D.

[Regitnui]

D&D does not take after FR, FR takes after D&D.

So why is there a massive and impenetrable wiki made up of FR lore? Even if your statement is true, FR has built up so much lore over the years with everything (except possibly DDO) being canon, that the reason FR is 'default D&D' is sheer weight of information. For example, WoW is default MMO, and Morrowind is default Elder Scrolls. Biggest scope, longest reach, so therefore it's become the baseline by which other settings must be judged or moulded.

And before you object to me not knowing anything about FR and FR not being explicitly what's in the PHB, FR changes to the rules of the edition, so as I understand it, whatever was true about FR in 4e or 3.5 is now replaced by whatever's stated by 5e, which has a neat coating of FR over it all. FR bends to the setting and moves forward in history.

But you're right, this isn't the place for a setting war. Just wanted to say that. I'm probably going to be told I'm wrong.

[Unoriginal]

So why is there a massive and impenetrable wiki made up of FR lore? Even if your statement is true, FR has built up so much lore over the years with everything (except possibly DDO) being canon, that the reason FR is 'default D&D' is sheer weight of information. For example, WoW is default MMO, and Morrowind is default Elder Scrolls. Biggest scope, longest reach, so therefore it's become the baseline by which other settings must be judged or moulded.

And before you object to me not knowing anything about FR and FR not being explicitly what's in the PHB, FR changes to the rules of the edition, so as I understand it, whatever was true about FR in 4e or 3.5 is now replaced by whatever's stated by 5e, which has a neat coating of FR over it all. FR bends to the setting and moves forward in history.

But you're right, this isn't the place for a setting war. Just wanted to say that. I'm probably going to be told I'm wrong.

Yeah, you're wrong. There is a huge FR wiki *because* FR has a lot of lore that is NOT the standard D&D one.

That FR is modified for each editions is further proof of that: there is the default D&D, and FR has to adapt otherwise it'd become too different. But the explanation for how Dragonborn showed up in the Realms is different from the default D&D explanation, just for one example.

[Millstone85]

the reason FR is 'default D&D' is sheer weight of information

I agree that, in term of support, FR is the default setting of 5e. There is, as you say, the sheer weight of information it has accumulated over the years. There is also the fact that SCAG, and possibly CoS, are currently 5e's only setting books. And of course, there is AL taking place in FR.

FR changes to the rules of the edition, so as I understand it, whatever was true about FR in 4e or 3.5 is now replaced by whatever's stated by 5e

Every setting changes to the lore and rules of the edition. The difference is that, as you say, FR moves forward in history, undergoing some new cataclysm in the process, while other settings do a more traditional reboot.

For example, a 5e FR historian could talk about how none in Faerûn had heard of the Elemental Chaos until 1385 DR, when the Spellplague jumbled the Elemental Planes, and how as of 1489 DR the Elemental Chaos appears to persist around the reformed Elemental Planes.

But I believe 5e's default setting, which is probably called 5e Planescape, is being written from the point of view that the Great Wheel has been as it is presented in the PHB for thousands upon thousands of years. If we got 5e Dark Sun, it would probably work under that same assumption, with the addendum that travel to or from Athas is extremely difficult.

In that sense, FR is actually harder than any other setting to reconcile with edition lore.

[Beechgnome]

Can we all just agree to be done with the setting conversation, now?

I made a few additions to the list I made (page 5 of this thread for newcomers, so yes, 2 pages of setting talk later). I had not noticed until now the three variants of Shadar-Kai: Shadow dancer, gloom weaver and soul monger and have added them.

Also, I watched the last mayhem battle, and there were no new monster reveals, but the Gith Supreme Commander (Cr 14) defeated Sibriex (Cr 18) in an upset. Really good rolls, an early Crit with his Bigby's Hand attack and at one point he used telekinesis to lift the demon up and drop it on all her wretched - Who strangely died from the demon's noxious aura, but whatever, it was actually cool.

[Unoriginal]

Can we all just agree to be done with the setting conversation, now?

I made a few additions to the list I made (page 5 of this thread for newcomers, so yes, 2 pages of setting talk later). I had not noticed until now the three variants of Shadar-Kai: Shadow dancer, gloom weaver and soul monger and have added them.

Also, I watched the last mayhem battle, and there were no new monster reveals, but the Gith Supreme Commander (Cr 14) defeated Sibriex (Cr 18) in an upset. Really good rolls, an early Crit with his Bigby's Hand attack and at one point he used telekinesis to lift the demon up and drop it on all her wretched - Who strangely died from the demon's noxious aura, but whatever, it was actually cool.

That battle's setup was just ridiculous, especially compared to the Moloch vs Sibriex one.

To "balance" the fight, Moloch had to fight 24 Wretched along with the Sibriex. The Githyanki Supreme Commander had ONE regular kobold to help them in the fight. A kobold who couldn't even survive one turn next to the Sibriex (though I suppose serving as shield for one spell helped. And the Sibriex not only still had one Wretched, it STILL had the maxed out HPs.

In any case, the Sibriex's slow speed, as well as the Supreme Commander being trained in parrying as well as having a player who used their abilities better, ended up being major factors.

The main danger the Sibriex brought to the table was the poison aura, which eventually got countered once the Commander passed their save near the end, while the Supreme was in the end far more skilled a combatant in a straight up brawl.

I think the deciding factor of the fight, however, was the Mass Suggestion used by the Supreme Commander on the second-to-last turn, which forced the Sibriex to move away from them rather than attack.

Still, it's rather sad how the DM favors one side over the other that much.

I doubt the Supreme Commander will be able to win the final round, in any case.

[Millstone85]

I made a few additions to the list I made (page 5 of this thread for newcomers, so yes, 2 pages of setting talk later). I had not noticed until now the three variants of Shadar-Kai: Shadow dancer, gloom weaver and soul monger and have added them.

Why update a list on page 5 and not the one on page 1?

I also forgot to write down those three, sorry.

[Beechgnome]

Why update a list on page 5 and not the one on page 1?

I also forgot to write down those three, sorry.

Easier on my phone?. I've not been home much this month (new baby, hospital, things better now). But I'm near a laptop now so I should be able to grab whole text from that page 5 post and move it to OP.

EDIT: Original post edited. It will be easier to keep that updated as long as there aren't wholesale changes like the Fantasy Grounds screenshots. Which was a treasure-trove of info, Envyus.

[Unoriginal]

We should do our own Mayhem, when we get more monster stats.

[Beechgnome]

Looks like starting May 7 there will be podcasts of adventures featuring monsters from the book.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/events/podcasts-foes

[the_brazenburn]

Looks like starting May 7 there will be podcasts of adventures featuring monsters from the book.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/events/podcasts-foes

Oh, great.

This looks like it will be even worse than the "one-on-one" "unbiased" Mayhem fights.

@Unoriginal: Great idea! We could get people to volunteer to do certain matches and post them up somewhere. Personally, I'd love to handle the Marut, if the stats get leaked somehow.

[Envyus]

Posted a new thread over the reveal of Moloch's stats in the new issue of Dragon +

Edit Link. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...2#post23008442

Also Githyanki Lich Queen Vlaakith. Though I don't feel like making a thread for her yet. Edit I made a thread for her http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ragon-preview)

[Beechgnome]

Posted a new thread over the reveal of Moloch's stats in the new issue of Dragon +

Edit Link. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...2#post23008442

Also Githyanki Lich Queen Vlaakith. Though I don't feel like making a thread for her yet. http://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/dr...LichQueen2.pdf

I can definitely see Moloch as the kind of guy who would hire the party for a job. Disguised as a noble, of course.

[Beechgnome]

Was looking at another attempt to catalogue upcoming monsters and someone mentioned this Mearls tweet as an indication we are getting Phoenix in the book. Or could just be a joke. But I am hopeful we will get at least a couple celestials to bolster the current 8.

Mike Mearls (@mikemearls)
2018-02-11, 11:30 AM
Funny story - we kept deleting it from the book, but every day when we went back to work it would be back in there and my desk would be on fire.

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/statu...681459200?s=21

[Beechgnome]

As well it was suggested The Lost and The Lonely were demons, like the previously shown The Wretched. That would make sense as a group.

And weirdly, Google tells me there is a Joan Baez song called The Last, Lonely and Wretched. Which is funny, because I have always found her music Abysmal.

[Beechgnome]

New update: One of the adventures to tie in with MToF previews 9 stat blocks for monsters in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes: the previously mentioned Allip and Duergar Stoneguard, plus Duergar Warlord, Eidolon, Eidolon Sacred Statue (really more of an extension of the Eidolon), Elder Oblex, and three Star Spawn variations: Mangler, Hulk and Seer.

Here is original reddit post

and here is Bell of Lost Souls with stat blocks of eight of those (but not Elder Oblex for some reason).

Updating list.

[the_brazenburn]

New update: One of the adventures to tie in with MToF previews 9 stat blocks for monsters in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes: the previously mentioned Allip and Duergar Stoneguard, plus Duergar Warlord, Eidolon, Eidolon Sacred State, Elder Oblex, and three Star Spawn variations: Mangler, Hulk and Seer.

Here is original reddit post

and here is Bell of Lost Souls with stat blocks of eight of those (but not Elder Oblex for some reason).

Updating list.

What's the adventure plot?

[Beechgnome]

What's the adventure plot?

I fixed reddit link. I haven't read the adventure myself, but it involves you acting as Gith to hunt down some illithid and muck up their plans across a number of planes. Or so the redditer says.

[Millstone85]

three Star Spawn variations: Mangler, Hulk and Seer.

So they are using the ushemoi again. Those just don't click for me.

Let's hope high level star spawn are something more interesting.

[Unoriginal]

New update: One of the adventures to tie in with MToF previews 9 stat blocks for monsters in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes: the previously mentioned Allip and Duergar Stoneguard, plus Duergar Warlord, Eidolon, Eidolon Sacred State, Elder Oblex, and three Star Spawn variations: Mangler, Hulk and Seer.

Here is original reddit post

and here is Bell of Lost Souls with stat blocks of eight of those (but not Elder Oblex for some reason).

Updating list.

Having seen the Allip statblock, I can confirm that it was used by Matt Mercer in Critical Role season 2 episode 16, as the boss of an abandoned necromantic research facility.

Duergar Warlord is interesting: their mental stats make them above average nd even pretty charismatic, but not incredibly so, their Call to Attack only work on Duergar, but their high STR and CON as well as their multiattacks make it pretty clear how they managed to get the rank. It ties really well with how the Duergar favor practicality over imagination.

Duergar Stone Guard's use of a King's Knife is very interesting. It clearly has some kind of cultural significance, even though it's not the best weapon they could have. Even a regular hammer (of the same kind the Warlord has, but without the psychic link) would up the damages.

Also damn those Duergars are strong. Should definitively show off that 18 STR as a DM.

Eidolon and Sacred Statue are an incredible idea. A technically weak CR 12 enemy that can reveal its true power when paired with a CR 0 one -or several.

[strangebloke]

I love the combos built into the Eidolon and starspawn.

The Eidolon combo is just fantastic as a high-level puzzle monster. Set up five statues in a room and watch it go to work. The best part is that if the party is stupid they can keep facing the thing over and over again. "That thing was only CR 12? Are you kidding me?"

With Starspawn, I see the manglers bursting from stealth over and over while a couple of hulks wade into combat, and the Seer fires orb after orb at the hulks, cascading to damage the party. Very weird combo of abilities, and super fitting, given the themes.

[Regitnui]

Hmm... I'm going to have to do some thinking over those creatures... I do like that they're populating the Far Realm (which is not so Far in my preferred setting), and that Eidolon sounds like just the thing to drive my players batty in an otherwise boring field of "standing stones"...

[Beechgnome]

I found the stat block for Elder Oblex. It is a CR 10 ooze that drains memories and can create duplicates of creatures it consumes. It is very awesome. Juiblex be praised.

I cannot attach image from my phone but here is the link:

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/hSf4R67

[EvilAnagram]

I found the stat block for Elder Oblex. It is a CR 10 ooze that drains memories and can create duplicates of creatures it consumes. It is very awesome. Juiblex be praised.

I cannot attach image from my phone but here is the link:

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/hSf4R67

The Star Spawn and Oblex all look pretty damn sweet.