Help building my first (second) character!

[Dhoule]

Hi there, a newcomer here! I was looking for some advice to create a new character for our D&D 3.5 campaign in Faerun.

We've been playing for about a year and a half, one afternoon "every" week (some people aren't able to come always, so some sessions end suspended), and the team just got to level 6 last week. It's gonna be a looong way until we get to the last levels, and that if we ever get there.

I started at level 1 as a chaotic good half-orc barbarian female, with ability scores as:

STR 18
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 6

It wasn't decided by luck. I think we started with 8 in every AS, and had 22 points to spare between them. I put one more point in DEX at level 4.

The rest of the party is composed of a chaotic good halfling rogue, a chaotic good dwarf fighter, a neutral good human cleric, and a true neutral elf wizard. Until now, I've been dealing most of the damage to our enemies, and receiving most of it too, due to my low AC. But the thing is... Even though I like to deal damage, I'm not really comfortable with my character. You see, it's my first D&D campaign, and I'm quite shy, so it's hard for me to role play the big dumb barbarian, and I think I always end up failing in that. I am how I am, and I'd like my new character to be the most as myself.

We have access to PHBI, PHBII, Player's Guide to Faerun, Complete Warrior, Adventurer, Arcane and Divine. And we've been playing around the Moonsea.

Last week, I've been reading those books, as well as many threads in some forums, including of course this one. First of all, I'd prefer my character to be human, and male. Also, I'd like not to be dumb, nor illiterate. I don't really care about CHA, I think. With the current party, I think we would be good with another melee character (one fighter seems to be not enough). Oh, and also chaotic or at least neutral good. The DM doesn't want any lawful character.

I was thinking of another Barbarian, but also Fighter and Bear Warrior this time. But our DM don't allow to keep any item while transformed (no weapons or armors, but also no accesories), and I think that'd be pretty lackluster. Another option I was thinking about would be a Swashbuckler/Fighter/Dervish, though I'm still not convinced about how much damage would I be dealing. We need a lot of time to get to a new level, so I also think that building my character thinking only about how good he'll be at level 20 is a mistake. I want him to be useful now (and not only in combat, if possible), and to remain being so every new level.

So... What are your thoughts? Any advice? Any more information needed?

Thanks a lot! And sorry if this was too long ^^u.

[BowStreetRunner]

The last time I played a Barbarian, I went with the Champion of Gwynharwyf (CoG) prestige class from the Book of Exalted Deeds. It's a Chaotic Good barbarian that picks up some divine casting ability and is a bit less focused on one thing than the normal barbarian. You generally want to eventually get Wisdom of 14 (to cast all levels of spells) and Charisma of at least 12 (to gain a benefit from Divine Grace and for your Intimidate-based ability) in addition to the usual benefit of high physical stats for a melee combatant, so it appears a little Multiple Attribute Dependent (MAD). However, I found that starting with INT as your dump stat, taking 12 in everything else but STR (which you pump up with your remaining points) didn't hamper me too much. The ability score bumps at 8th and 12th were applied to WIS to get me access to my spells and the rest I put into STR. Granted, we had a 28 point build and I was fortunate in acquiring ability score boosting items, but the CoG list includes the '+4 to an ability' spells so you always have that.

I found it to be a far more well rounded class than straight barbarian. It also works quite well with a one-level dip in Crusader (Barbarian 5/Crusader 1/CoG 10).

[Dhoule]

I've read about the Champion of Gwynharwyf, and I liked it. But we don't have access to that book. Only to PHBI, PHBII, Player's Guide to Faerun, and Complete Warrior, Adventurer, Arcane and Divine. Also, with only 22 points to spare, I think we are much more limited to what we can afford, because of the feats and prestige classes with high requirements.

[Zaq]

Are you allowed to use material on the SRD, even if it isn't in the books you listed? What about material from WotC's website?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Champion of Gwynharwyf is a great option, if you can get Book of Exalted Deeds approved.

While we're on the topic of books to get approved: Tome of Battle is your friend. Get yourself a nice crusader or warblade. No need to multiclass, just play.

Duskblade is a good single-class melee specialist, as well. Requires a decent Intelligence score.


Within your source restrictions, a smart melee type probably involves some kind of gish (self-buffing melee-specialized spellcaster), as you have Persistent Spell available (and also Incantatrix and Divine Metamagic). Incantatrix doesn't come online until ECL 8, but is stronger; DMM works right from level one, but is more limited.

[Dhoule]

Are you allowed to use material on the SRD, even if it isn't in the books you listed? What about material from WotC's website?

I fear not. You see, we are from Spain, and many books weren't even published here. PHBI, PHBII, Player's Guide to Faerun, and Complete Warrior, Adventurer, Arcane and Divine are almost all of them. At least, these are the books our DM has, and he's not going to buy more for this. He's not very good at English either, so I'm sure he won't be willing to accept anything that isn't in his current books. Thus, we are limited to these.

[noce]

Duskblade seems a good answer to your question.
It's from a book you have, it's beginner-friendly, it's good as a pure class 1-20, it fits your concept and your party.

[BowStreetRunner]

I've read about the Champion of Gwynharwyf, and I liked it. But we don't have access to that book. Only to PHBI, PHBII, Player's Guide to Faerun, and Complete Warrior, Adventurer, Arcane and Divine. Also, with only 22 points to spare, I think we are much more limited to what we can afford, because of the feats and prestige classes with high requirements.

My apologies. I missed that part of your original post.

I'd second Duskblade. With the Armored Mage ability you can eventually pull off Mithral Full Plate Armor without any arcane spell failure, so decent AC is possible. Shocking Grasp at 1st gives you great damage dealing potential and Vampiric Touch at 3rd makes you a bit sturdier even when AC starts to be less effective. Spells like Dimension Hop and Dispelling Touch give you great versatility. Complete Warrior has a very nice feat called Arcane Strike that can allow you to go nova when needed. Take a Two Handed weapon with Power Attack and you can still cast - taking your off hand away to cast or putting it back on to swing is a free action.

There are lots of goodies for Duskblade in the books that you can't access which is a shame, but with the books you mentioned there is plenty of support for it and it makes a great all-around character build.

[Dhoule]

A Duskblade, uh? Bu isn't the d8 a bit low for a front liner? =/

Do I need to choose one magic "school" (or however is called) and cast only the spells of that school, or can I learn and use spells from any of them? How much do a spell last if it doesn't say it? Which ones do you recommend to have at level 6?

What about the attributes? And the feats? Skill points?

Thanks!

[ExLibrisMortis]

There are far more important things to a frontliner than hit die. Generally, class features make or break a class, and chassis (hit die, saves, base attack) only support or detract from the class features. A class that relies on its chassis to be strong is usually (~always) a weak class.

Duskblades cast from the duskblade spell list.

A stat spread like 16/x/14/14/y/z would be fine, where xyz can be low. Increases can go into Strength.

[Dhoule]

A stat spread like 16/x/14/14/y/z would be fine, where xyz can be low. Increases can go into Strength.

The thing about a 16 Strength stat is that he won't get the "good" side of the x1.5 bonus from a two-handed weapon. Wouldn't it be better to put either 14 or 18?

[Zombulian]

The extra +1 to hit but leaving enough points left for casting and health are much more useful than the extra 2 points of damage you'd get from going 18.

[Goaty14]

The thing about a 16 Strength stat is that he won't get the "good" side of the x1.5 bonus from a two-handed weapon. Wouldn't it be better to put either 14 or 18?

The latter parts of getting a natural 18 with point buy tends to be costly, so you could start it out as 16, and buy +2 gauntlets of ogre STR to make it an 18. Increases go into STR anyways, so you'd have an 18 by level 8 anyways.

[BowStreetRunner]

• A Duskblade can start with an 11 intelligence and if she puts her ability score increases at levels 4, 8, 12, and 16 into intelligence she will always be able to cast her highest level spells. Of course, if somewhere along the way she comes across some other way to permanently increase her intelligence then she can direct her advances to something else, like strength.
• Wisdom isn't particularly imporant to a Duskblade, unless she takes the Arcane Disciple feat from Complete Divine to pick up the spells from a cleric domain, which I wouldn't attempt with a 22 pt buy. You can dump this ability.
• Charisma is even less valuable, with no connection to any class skill or ability. This is a definite dump ability.
• Dexterity isn't critical, since the Duskblade can wear decent armor. If she gets that Mithral Full Plate her max dex bonus will be +3, and she can easily pick up enhancements to Dex from spells, so it's not all that important. The biggest reason to put a few points in here is if you need to qualify for feats, which usually means a 13.
• Constitution is certainly important, but if you want to have a high strength I'd just take a 12 here and look for an item with a Con bonus along the way.
• This all said, with a 22 point buy you can get a starting Str 16, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 8, Cha 8 which is pretty decent. (If you take the Spellcasting Prodigy feat at 1st level then your Intelligence requirements are actually 2 less, although I still wouldn't start with less than a 10.)
• Spellcraft and Concentration are worth keeping up, and you'll have a few more skill points to pick up a couple ranks here and there in utility skills like climb, ride, and swim.
• The Spellcasting Prodigy feat from Player's Guide to Faerun can help keep your character less MAD by reducing your intelligence requirement by 2. Has to be taken at 1st level.
• If you take Improved Toughness from Complete Warrior it's basically like having a +2 in constitution for hit points.
• The Arcane Strike feat from Complete Warrior would be a great feat to pick up at 6th level.

[noce]

Guys, it seems to me that they use point buy on a 1-1 change rate.
If that's the case, you can start human with stats something like 16 10 14 14 8 8, or dwarf with 16 10 16 14 8 6.

Duskblade hits for more and is sturdier than a barbarian, and much more versatile.
Look at his spell list, his number of spells per day, and the feat Arcane Strike (that also helps with using Power Attack).

[Dhoule]

• A Duskblade can start with an 11 intelligence and if she puts her ability score increases at levels 4, 8, 12, and 16 into intelligence she will always be able to cast her highest level spells. Of course, if somewhere along the way she comes across some other way to permanently increase her intelligence then she can direct her advances to something else, like strength.
• Wisdom isn't particularly imporant to a Duskblade, unless she takes the Arcane Disciple feat from Complete Divine to pick up the spells from a cleric domain, which I wouldn't attempt with a 22 pt buy. You can dump this ability.
• Charisma is even less valuable, with no connection to any class skill or ability. This is a definite dump ability.
• Dexterity isn't critical, since the Duskblade can wear decent armor. If she gets that Mithral Full Plate her max dex bonus will be +3, and she can easily pick up enhancements to Dex from spells, so it's not all that important. The biggest reason to put a few points in here is if you need to qualify for feats, which usually means a 13.
• Constitution is certainly important, but if you want to have a high strength I'd just take a 12 here and look for an item with a Con bonus along the way.
• This all said, with a 22 point buy you can get a starting Str 16, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 8, Cha 8 which is pretty decent. (If you take the Spellcasting Prodigy feat at 1st level then your Intelligence requirements are actually 2 less, although I still wouldn't start with less than a 10.)

Hm... I'm leaning more towards stats such as: 16 10 14 14 8 8. Starting with Int as 11 and keep increasing it is... I don't know. Seems kinda like a waste. If skill points would be retroactive, I wouldn't mind. But they're not.
The Mithral Full Plate Armor is indeed what I'd go for. But, at level 6, we're still far away from that. In fact, I think we're quite poor for our level... Our DM is a bit stingy ^^u, and we always end up spending most of our money in healing potions, anyway u_u

And what about familiars? There is already a Wizard in the party, though I think he hasn't used it yet (probably he hasn't even created it). Many threads suggest taking Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar feats as a Duskblade, and I'm interested, but I don't know about their uses and tricks. Which one would be good for a CG or NG alignement, if I took it?

[noce]

and we always end up spending most of our money in healing potions, anyway u_u

Why on earth? Buy the cleric a wand and be done with it.

[Dhoule]

Why on earth? Buy the cleric a wand and be done with it.

A wand? What? What? Tell me more! Oh, God, we've expended thousands of gp in healing potions ^^u

[Zombulian]

A wand? What? What? Tell me more! Oh, God, we've expended thousands of gp in healing potions ^^u

Oh jeez.
Just read this.

[Eldariel]

Hm... I'm leaning more towards stats such as: 16 10 14 14 8 8. Starting with Int as 11 and keep increasing it is... I don't know. Seems kinda like a waste. If skill points would be retroactive, I wouldn't mind. But they're not.
The Mithral Full Plate Armor is indeed what I'd go for. But, at level 6, we're still far away from that. In fact, I think we're quite poor for our level... Our DM is a bit stingy ^^u, and we always end up spending most of our money in healing potions, anyway u_u

And what about familiars? There is already a Wizard in the party, though I think he hasn't used it yet (probably he hasn't even created it). Many threads suggest taking Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar feats as a Duskblade, and I'm interested, but I don't know about their uses and tricks. Which one would be good for a CG or NG alignement, if I took it?

Well, Faerie Dragon Improved Familiar is pretty nice; it has 60' Telepathy, you can use an item of Psychic Reformation if DM doesn't let you pick its feats to give it Mindsight. It can handle all the interparty communication and also act as a radar and a superb scout with its own set of actions (and UMD would give it the ability to Wand people in the face). Not to mention it has your skill ranks and all that.

If you indeed have the straight-up buy, I'd go 18 Str. 18/10/12/14/8/8 seems perfectly doable; just use spells to improve your survivability as needed. It is indeed nice to max out your offensive stat though things like Arcane Strike [Complete Warrior] and Knowledge Devotion [Complete Champion] do a good job of enhancing them already. I do like 14 Con as much as the next guy though; either is fine, really.

[Dhoule]

Oh jeez.
Just read this.

Hmm... Caster level (6) x Spell level (1?) x 750 gp. So... A newly crafted wand with 50 charges of Cure light wounds spell would be... 4500 gp?? Oh, and also 180xp... Where are we saving any money? =S

[BowStreetRunner]

...Oh, God, we've expended thousands of gp in healing potions ^^u

Considering the limitations you have in terms of sources, some of the best methods of reducing your healing costs are unavailable (eternal wands, reserve feats). A wand of cure light wounds is still going to come out more economical than potions however, so there is an improvement over your current predicament. The Augment Healing feat is something a cleric might consider, at +2 hp per spell level that can really add up.

If you can get access to someone with Craft Wondrous Item however, you can create something truly indispensable. An at-will item of Cure Minor Wounds, even though it will only cure a single hit point per round, can be used between combats to restore everyone to full hp at the cost of a number of rounds equal to the total damage the party needs healed. And since it is a level 0 spell, the cost of this item is going to be incredibly economical. (I don't have the formula in front of me, but trust me - these things are by far the most economical method of healing outside of combat you are likely to find with the source books you have available. Everything you need is in the DMG.)

[noce]

Hmm... Caster level (6) x Spell level (1?) x 750 gp. So... A newly crafted wand with 50 charges of Cure light wounds spell would be... 4500 gp?? Oh, and also 180xp... Where are we saving any money? =S

You're reading it wrong.
The cost is based on the minimum caster level required to cast that spell.
A wand of cure light wounds only costs 750gp.
Do not take into account XP, you're not the one that looses XP, that is on the merchant side.

[Zombulian]

Hmm... Caster level (6) x Spell level (1?) x 750 gp. So... A newly crafted wand with 50 charges of Cure light wounds spell would be... 4500 gp?? Oh, and also 180xp... Where are we saving any money? =S

What? No. A wand of Cure Light Wounds with 50 charges is 750gp flat.

[Dhoule]

750gp flat? And we can find those in "any" shop? And we can do that with only the books we have access to? It seems strange to me for our DM to not have told us anything about them by now. It's not only stingy. That's just... mean.

[Zaq]

Hmm... Caster level (6) x Spell level (1?) x 750 gp. So... A newly crafted wand with 50 charges of Cure light wounds spell would be... 4500 gp?? Oh, and also 180xp... Where are we saving any money? =S

Why bother with a wand with caster level 6? Caster level 1 will be almost as good and significantly cheaper, at least for Cure Light Wounds. Just 750 GP. Each charge is worth 1d8 + 1 HP, so average of 5.5 HP per charge. About 275 total points of healing from the whole wand. Not bad, right?

The gold standard for a healing wand is Lesser Vigor, which you can find in Complete Divine (pg. 186 in the English version, but it may be different in other languages). It's fine with caster level 1. Each charge is worth 11 HP, so you get a total of 550 points of healing out of a wand that costs 750 GP.

That's way, way better than potions, of course. 750 gp will buy you 15 potions of CLW (about 82.5 points of healing), 2 potions of Cure Moderate Wounds and 3 potions of Cure Light Wounds (about 40.5 points of healing), or one single potion of Cure Serious Wounds (about 18.5 points of healing). A little bit less efficient, don't you think?

You only spend XP on the wands if you're the one to create them, too. You can just buy them at full price and not spend any XP, or you can craft them (with the feat) for half price and spend a small amount of XP. For simple healing, I'd just buy them—a wand of Cure Light Wounds, even if you can't get a wand of Lesser Vigor, is about the simplest and most reasonably demanded wand in the game, so if you have any ability at all to buy wands in your campaign, you should be able to buy one for healing.

The only downside of a wand compared to a potion is that you have to either be able to cast the spell or be able to fake it with Use Magic Devise before you can use the wand, so pretty much it ends up being the job of the Cleric, Rogue, Druid, or Bard to use the wand (anyone can drink a potion). But as long as you've got at least one character in the party who can use a wand, it's easily the most efficient way to go.

[Zombulian]

750gp flat? And we can find those in "any" shop? And we can do that with only the books we have access to? It seems strange to me for our DM to not have told us anything about them by now. It's not only stingy. That's just... mean.

Maybe give your DM the benefit of the doubt and consider they don't know about wands? Are they new?
Also did they answer your question about healing items with "well you can buy potions" or did you guys ask "Can we buy potions?" Because one is lying by omission but the other is just answering a question.
Since you have all the Completes, I'll echo Zaq that Lesser Vigor is the way to go. 11hp every charge instead of 1d8+1 from CLW is strictly better.

While on the topic, is there a reason for anyone to use potions? I love the idea of them but they always seemed like a waste of resources.

[Eldariel]

Maybe give your DM the benefit of the doubt and consider they don't know about wands? Are they new?
Also did they answer your question about healing items with "well you can buy potions" or did you guys ask "Can we buy potions?" Because one is lying by omission but the other is just answering a question.
Since you have all the Completes, I'll echo Zaq that Lesser Vigor is the way to go. 11hp every charge instead of 1d8+1 from CLW is strictly better.

While on the topic, is there a reason for anyone to use potions? I love the idea of them but they always seemed like a waste of resources.

Potions are for characters who need the ability on self and can't use magic completion/trigger items. Invisibility, Enlarge Person, etc. are all very good potions and e.g. Red Hand of Doom mooks can use them to great effect. Hobgoblin Warriors are suddenly much more threatening when they're as big as a small house and sneaks are much better at sneaking. Fly Potions have beyond obvious utility and Mage Armor Potions are pretty good for making Monks slightly less gimped on low levels. Healing Potions, they're for emergencies when you get split from the group. It's good for mundanes to have few extra Potions of few key spells around for when you just need the effect and the caster's actions/time are better spent elsewhere. Of course, anyone with UMD or casting should use spell completion/triggers instead.

[Kelb_Panthera]

750gp flat? And we can find those in "any" shop? And we can do that with only the books we have access to? It seems strange to me for our DM to not have told us anything about them by now. It's not only stingy. That's just... mean.

Wands are in the Dungeon Master's Guide. He probably didn't know or just never put it together. It's noteworthy that only a spellcaster with the spell contained in the wand can activate it with the exception of a character with ranks in use magic device. While the DMG isn't in your listed sources, I'll bet your DM is using it. It's rather important.

[bean illus]

The bad news is I couldn't find complete champion in Spanish. The good news is I did find Tome of battle in Spanish. See if he'll let you use it.

Getting = pounce with your list of source books is difficult.

3: Dimension Hop spell. (Sorcerer/Wizard/Duskblade 2, Standard Action to teleport one target a short distance. You're losing an action, but they're gaining free movement. PHBII
5: Formation Expert feat (free move when an ally in a line drops. Hint: Have an ally Summon many weak creatures. Complete Warrior)
5: Mobile Spellcasting feat (free move when you cast a Standard Action spell if you make a Concentration check. Complete Adventurer p 111) STANDARD ACTION IS WHAT DB DO.

Immediate Magic (PH2 68): Give up your familiar; gain the ability to use a magical effect as an immediate action, ...
Conjuration: Short range teleport
First level wizard dip ACF of course