Help building my first (second) character!

[BowStreetRunner]

Potions are for characters who need the ability on self and can't use magic completion/trigger items. Invisibility, Enlarge Person, etc. are all very good potions and e.g. Red Hand of Doom mooks can use them to great effect. Hobgoblin Warriors are suddenly much more threatening when they're as big as a small house and sneaks are much better at sneaking. Fly Potions have beyond obvious utility and Mage Armor Potions are pretty good for making Monks slightly less gimped on low levels. Healing Potions, they're for emergencies when you get split from the group. It's good for mundanes to have few extra Potions of few key spells around for when you just need the effect and the caster's actions/time are better spent elsewhere. Of course, anyone with UMD or casting should use spell completion/triggers instead.

Further along this line, potions are generally hold-out items for when 1) you need healing in combat, and 2) the healer can't get to you in time. They should never be used as your primary source of healing as you are paying a premium for their in-combat utility. In combat you should be using renewable sources like spell slots and less expensive sources like wand charges. Out of combat you should be able to come up with something even less expensive, like the at-will wondrous item I mentioned in my previous post above (using the DMG rules for creating magic items. Your DM should have these. (A 900gp at-will amulet of cure minor wounds could keep your party at full hit points between encounters, eliminating the need to waste potions, wand charges, or even spell slots outside of combat.)

[Zaq]

While on the topic, is there a reason for anyone to use potions? I love the idea of them but they always seemed like a waste of resources.

Least shenanigans-y way I know of to make them useful is the Delay Potion feat, which does great things for your action economy with a little bit of foresight. They’re still crazy expensive, though, so it’s recommended to use the Quick Potion spell as your source. Basically turning a 2nd level slot and a slot of the actual spell level into a quickened spell is often a good trade.

[Zombulian]

Least shenanigans-y way I know of to make them useful is the Delay Potion feat, which does great things for your action economy with a little bit of foresight. They’re still crazy expensive, though, so it’s recommended to use the Quick Potion spell as your source. Basically turning a 2nd level slot and a slot of the actual spell level into a quickened spell is often a good trade.

Wow that's actually really neat. I've never seen the Quick Potion spell and I use potions so infrequently that I've probably just skimmed over the Delay Potion feat.
Always looking for more tricks to add to Trickster Spellthief handbook I'm writing and this could probably fit in there in a unique way. Cast Quick Potion off of your own Spellthief list, borrow a 4th level spell from a full caster ally, and use Godsblood Spellthief to convert that spell into Divine Powe-CRAP potions only go up to 3rd level. Damn.
Still useful though. Something like Quickened True Strike for the cost of a 1st and 2nd level slot is still pretty nice.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Wow that's actually really neat. I've never seen the Quick Potion spell and I use potions so infrequently that I've probably just skimmed over the Delay Potion feat.
Always looking for more tricks to add to Trickster Spellthief handbook I'm writing and this could probably fit in there in a unique way. Cast Quick Potion off of your own Spellthief list, borrow a 4th level spell from a full caster ally, and use Godsblood Spellthief to convert that spell into Divine Powe-CRAP potions only go up to 3rd level. Damn.
Still useful though. Something like Quickened True Strike for the cost of a 1st and 2nd level slot is still pretty nice.

There's at least one class that lets you craft higher-levelled potions: the Master Alchemist from Magic of Faerun. Takes some serious entry requirements (three feats, 10 ranks in two skills, ability to cast 4ths), but half of them are what you'd normally have already (Spellcraft, Brew Potion, Magical Artisan). Spellthieves qualify easily with Eldritch Corruption, though that has some serious drawbacks.

[Zombulian]

There's at least one class that lets you craft higher-levelled potions: the Master Alchemist from Magic of Faerun. Takes some serious entry requirements (three feats, 10 ranks in two skills, ability to cast 4ths), but half of them are what you'd normally have already (Spellcraft, Brew Potion, Magical Artisan). Spellthieves qualify easily with Eldritch Corruption, though that has some serious drawbacks.

Why would you need Eldritch Corruption exactly?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Why would you need Eldritch Corruption exactly?

You don't technically need it, but qualifying for a class that requires you to be able to cast 4th-level spells on a pure spellthief takes 14 levels, or 11 with just a +1 Heighten, or 8 with a +2 Heighten. Eldritch Corruption is the cheapest (feat-wise) way to get +2 Heighten without having the corresponding spell slots.

If you rule that spellthieves can "cast 4th-level spells" (for PrC qualification purposes) by stealing them, then sure, that works; I personally don't like that type of entry, because spellthieves can't reliably produce 4th-level spells on their own or with permanent magic items, making it something of a risk to form your build around.

[Zombulian]

You don't technically need it, but qualifying for a class that requires you to be able to cast 4th-level spells on a pure spellthief takes 14 levels, or 11 with just a +1 Heighten, or 8 with a +2 Heighten. Eldritch Corruption is the cheapest (feat-wise) way to get +2 Heighten without having the corresponding spell slots.

If you rule that spellthieves can "cast 4th-level spells" (for PrC qualification purposes) by stealing them, then sure, that works; I personally don't like that type of entry, because spellthieves can't reliably produce 4th-level spells on their own or with permanent magic items, making it something of a risk to form your build around.

Ah I see. Well I was talking about Trickster Spellthief so 4th's come online at 10. 7 if you have Easy MM and Heighten I guess.

[Zaq]

Wow that's actually really neat. I've never seen the Quick Potion spell and I use potions so infrequently that I've probably just skimmed over the Delay Potion feat.
Always looking for more tricks to add to Trickster Spellthief handbook I'm writing and this could probably fit in there in a unique way. Cast Quick Potion off of your own Spellthief list, borrow a 4th level spell from a full caster ally, and use Godsblood Spellthief to convert that spell into Divine Powe-CRAP potions only go up to 3rd level. Damn.
Still useful though. Something like Quickened True Strike for the cost of a 1st and 2nd level slot is still pretty nice.

I don't want to incessantly harp on my own stuff, but if we're discussing Quick Potion, Delay Potion, and Spellthieves in the same breath, this recent Iron Chef submission I entered seems relevant.

[Zombulian]

I don't want to incessantly harp on my own stuff, but if we're discussing Quick Potion, Delay Potion, and Spellthieves in the same breath, this recent Iron Chef submission I entered seems relevant.

Very nice. Somehow I've never seen Sudden Extend either. Thanks for sharing, Zaq.

[Eldariel]

Further along this line, potions are generally hold-out items for when 1) you need healing in combat, and 2) the healer can't get to you in time. They should never be used as your primary source of healing as you are paying a premium for their in-combat utility. In combat you should be using renewable sources like spell slots and less expensive sources like wand charges. Out of combat you should be able to come up with something even less expensive, like the at-will wondrous item I mentioned in my previous post above (using the DMG rules for creating magic items. Your DM should have these. (A 900gp at-will amulet of cure minor wounds could keep your party at full hit points between encounters, eliminating the need to waste potions, wand charges, or even spell slots outside of combat.)

It's worth noting that magic item guidelines are just guidelines and any custom items are fully at DM's purview; Healing Belt [MIC] is good enough but at-will healing items feel a bit too easy and thus I wouldn't expect it to fly at most tables. Even Wands consume resources, albeit at a minor rate; at-will items just plain don't (though you can always just persist Mass Lesser Vigor but that implies you're early persisting spells which is a whole different ballgame of course - one where many things don't really matter).

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's worth noting that magic item guidelines are just guidelines and any custom items are fully at DM's purview; Healing Belt [MIC] is good enough but at-will healing items feel a bit too easy and thus I wouldn't expect it to fly at most tables. Even Wands consume resources, albeit at a minor rate; at-will items just plain don't (though you can always just persist Mass Lesser Vigor but that implies you're early persisting spells which is a whole different ballgame of course - one where many things don't really matter).

The cost per hp on a wand of lesser vigor is so low that just zeroing it out with the suggested custom item isn't a significant change, really.

[noce]

Please guys stay in topic. The guy is fairy new to the game, so those disquisitions are not really helping.

To the OP, I'm not so sure your DM is just mean, maybe he didn't know about wand existence. Is he new to the game, too?
Maybe he just has a gameplayer background and is used to potions in videogames but not to wands.

I suggest you to speak with him, ask him to actively try to help the party about things of the game you do not know.
For example, looting a wand from an enemy corpse would have opened your eyes about the possibility of buying those things.

[BowStreetRunner]

Please guys stay in topic.

Thanks for the reminder. I think the OP should have plenty of insights to discuss with the DM and party about more economical ways to handle healing in and out of combat now.

Hm... I'm leaning more towards stats such as: 16 10 14 14 8 8. Starting with Int as 11 and keep increasing it is... I don't know. Seems kinda like a waste. If skill points would be retroactive, I wouldn't mind. But they're not.
The Mithral Full Plate Armor is indeed what I'd go for. But, at level 6, we're still far away from that. In fact, I think we're quite poor for our level... Our DM is a bit stingy ^^u, and we always end up spending most of our money in healing potions, anyway u_u

And what about familiars? There is already a Wizard in the party, though I think he hasn't used it yet (probably he hasn't even created it). Many threads suggest taking Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar feats as a Duskblade, and I'm interested, but I don't know about their uses and tricks. Which one would be good for a CG or NG alignement, if I took it?

If skill points are important, then yes you would want to start with a higher INT score (you will need a 15 to get all your spells eventually) and use the increases on something else.
As for the Mithral Full Plate, the real reason I mentioned it was to keep you from thinking you need the Battle Caster feat from CA. While it can help you get heavier armor early on, once you can afford mithral full plate you will find the feat useless. If you don't think you will ever be able to get mithral full plate, the feat might be worth the investment. But usually this is not the case. Just go with the best armor you can find along the way until you can afford the really good stuff.
As for familiars, you can gain access to Obtain Familar through CA and Improved Familiar through both CW and PGtF. Note that the Improved Familiar choices in PGtF include some familiars not offered in the CW version. Are you trending toward a particular alignment? Or are all choices open at this stage?

[bean illus]

So, somewhere in the middle of the potion discussion I posted a question about the value of action economy, and the difficulty of getting it within the sources available?

I don't know if the OP still needs help, but I think the questions relevant, and am politely interested in your opinions?

The bad news is I couldn't find complete champion in Spanish. The good news is I did find Tome of battle in Spanish. See if he'll let you use it.

Getting = pounce with your list of source books is difficult.

3: Dimension Hop spell. (Sorcerer/Wizard/Duskblade 2, Standard Action to teleport one target a short distance. You're losing an action, but they're gaining free movement. PHBII
5: Formation Expert feat (free move when an ally in a line drops. Hint: Have an ally Summon many weak creatures. Complete Warrior)
5: Mobile Spellcasting feat (free move when you cast a Standard Action spell if you make a Concentration check. Complete Adventurer p 111) STANDARD ACTION IS WHAT DB DO.

Immediate Magic (PH2 68): Give up your familiar; gain the ability to use a magical effect as an immediate action, ...
Conjuration: Short range teleport
First level wizard dip ACF of course

Particularly the mobile spell-casting feat seems like it could be used steadily from about 7th level on.

But also, what do you think about sacrificing a level of duskblade for 10 ft teleportation?

[Dhoule]

The bad news is I couldn't find complete champion in Spanish. The good news is I did find Tome of battle in Spanish. See if he'll let you use it.

Wow, I didn't know that. Thanks! I appreciate it, really. That said, though... I don't want to pressure him too much. I mean... I think my DM is still not sold about me being a Duskblade, 'cause all of us started playing as a basic class from the PHBI, and I can understand how he wouldn't want to make the others feel as if I'm special or something.

Also, I don't want to use every "hole" in the rules to take advantage of it. I'm sure he won't like that. We're playing just for fun, and we wouldn't have started playing without him. I was asking for advice mostly to not make usual beginner mistakes with Ability Scores, feats, etc. Not for some super duper broken combos that might let me kill every boss in a second, but will only be fun for me, but not for my team, nor our DM.

5: Formation Expert feat (free move when an ally in a line drops. Hint: Have an ally Summon many weak creatures. Complete Warrior)
5: Mobile Spellcasting feat (free move when you cast a Standard Action spell if you make a Concentration check. Complete Adventurer p 111) STANDARD ACTION IS WHAT DB DO.

Immediate Magic (PH2 68): Give up your familiar; gain the ability to use a magical effect as an immediate action, ...
Conjuration: Short range teleport
First level wizard dip ACF of course

I'm sorry, but I fail to understand the uses of those feats =/. I'm also not sure about the familiars, 'cause with a good alignement, most of the best ones seem to be impossible to take. And many others are in books we don't have access to.

By the way, I've recently known our fighter wants to get a few cleric levels for her desired prestige class, so a better tank might be needed. Don't know if it'll be enough with a "half" fighter and a Duskblade in the frontline.

[bean illus]

Wow, I didn't know that. Thanks! I appreciate it, really. That said, though... I don't want to pressure him too much. I mean... I think my DM is still not sold about me being a Duskblade, 'cause all of us started playing as a basic class from the PHBI, and I can understand how he wouldn't want to make the others feel as if I'm special or something.

Also, I don't want to use every "hole" in the rules to take advantage of it. I'm sure he won't like that. We're playing just for fun, and we wouldn't have started playing without him. I was asking for advice mostly to not make usual beginner mistakes with Ability Scores, feats, etc. Not for some super duper broken combos that might let me kill every boss in a second, but will only be fun for me, but not for my team, nor our DM.



I'm sorry, but I fail to understand the uses of those feats =/. I'm also not sure about the familiars, 'cause with a good alignement, most of the best ones seem to be impossible to take. And many others are in books we don't have access to.

By the way, I've recently known our fighter wants to get a few cleric levels for her desired prestige class, so a better tank might be needed. Don't know if it'll be enough with a "half" fighter and a Duskblade in the frontline.

Maybe go ahead and get ToB and just leave it laying around on the table. There's no need to start a debate about it, let things take their course.
And there's nothing and those books that can break your game any faster than the 3rd and 4th level spells that your primary casters are going to be gunning with next level.

Duskblade is a perfectly fine and fun class for the level you are playing at. I'm sure you will all enjoy it.

The purpose of the list of Feats was to explore ways to give your duskblade action economy. A duskblade that can cast a spell and full , or move and full attack is much more effective then a duskblade that can cast a spell and swing once.

[Dhoule]

Maybe go ahead and get ToB and just leave it laying around on the table. There's no need to start a debate about it, let things take their course.

Hm... Nah, that would be weird, at least coming from me.

And there's nothing and those books that can break your game any faster than the 3rd and 4th level spells that your primary casters are going to be gunning with next level.

Yep, that's something I've read everywhere recently, "the Cleric and the Wizard are OP". They certainly doesn't seem to be at our level. But I'm sure it'll change at higher levels.

The purpose of the list of Feats was to explore ways to give your duskblade action economy. A duskblade that can cast a spell and full , or move and full attack is much more effective then a duskblade that can cast a spell and swing once.

About Mobile Spellcasting... So, first of all, if I want to use it, I need to get +20 with my Concentration skill and the d20 combined, or the spell will be lost. Seems quite risky, at least for my current level. But just in case, if I do get 20+... What's exactly the benefit? I can both move and cast the spell as an standard action. So... Would I be able to move again because, technically, the movement action hasn't taken place yet, so I'd be able to move two times? Or if I move only with the feat, I'd be able to perform a full attack? But... It doesn't say that anywhere, does it?
Or did I read wrong the Arcane Channeling class feature? I thought I could also move even if I used it. Of course, not from level 13 onwards if I wanted to perform a full attack, the same way you can't do that with "any other class" (I'm sure there will be exceptions).

So... Nothing wrong with only a Duskblade and a "half" Fighter as frontliners? Won't we be too squishy?

And what about the weapon? I've been thinking about a reach weapon. Maybe a Glaive. But with my low Dex I won't be able to perform more than one AoO per turn, even if I got the Combat Reflexes feat. Also... Our DM usually makes us fight in somewhat tight places, where a reach weapon might even put me at disadvantage. I'm not sure.

[BowStreetRunner]

About Mobile Spellcasting... So, first of all, if I want to use it, I need to get +20 with my Concentration skill and the d20 combined, or the spell will be lost. Seems quite risky, at least for my current level. But just in case, if I do get 20+... What's exactly the benefit? I can both move and cast the spell as an standard action. So... Would I be able to move again because, technically, the movement action hasn't taken place yet, so I'd be able to move two times? Or if I move only with the feat, I'd be able to perform a full attack? But... It doesn't say that anywhere, does it?
Or did I read wrong the Arcane Channeling class feature? I thought I could also move even if I used it. Of course, not from level 13 onwards if I wanted to perform a full attack, the same way you can't do that with "any other class" (I'm sure there will be exceptions).

A Concentration Check of DC 20 + Spell Level isn't as hard as you think. Consider that you need 8 ranks of Concentration just to acquire the feat. A 14 CON would net you an additional +2. You can take 10 (accept a 10 as your result without actually rolling) on most skill checks as long as you are not in a threatened space and not otherwise distracted. So that would give you an easy 21 at 6th level already, and by 10th level you could take 10 and pass this check with even a 5th level spell. When you do need to roll, it's usually not going to be worse than a 55% success rate.

If you succeed, you can:

• Use a standard action to cast a spell AND move at the same time. In addition, you can use your normal move action before or after this standard action, and you can use that normal move action to move or for anything else you can do with a move action (like drawing a weapon).
• As a Duskblade with Arcane Channeling, you can use a standard action to cast a touch spell AND deliver it through your weapon with a melee attack. Since you are using a standard action to cast a spell then with the Mobile Spell-Casting feat you can also move as part of the same action. That's cast, attack, and move all in one. And you still have a move action free to use.

If you use a full attack however, it does not work with Mobile Spell-Casting since full attack is a full round action that supersedes both your standard action and move action for the round.

[bean illus]

Arcane Strike (Complete Warrior) .... A must have for a duskblade.

Power Attack .... Find a way to use True Strike as a swift action and convert all of your BAB into damage (use a two-handed weapon for doubling).

Spell Penetration ... you're probably gonna need this.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Can someone explain to me why arcane strike is a must-have on a class that spontaneously casts and whose whole shtick is channeling attack spells through his weapon?

[Zombulian]

Arcane Strike (Complete Warrior) .... A must have for a duskblade.

Power Attack .... Find a way to use True Strike as a swift action and convert all of your BAB into damage (use a two-handed weapon for doubling).

Spell Penetration ... you're probably gonna need this.

The Delay Potion + Quick Potion trick mentioned earlier would help with the PA component.

[BowStreetRunner]

Can someone explain to me why arcane strike is a must-have on a class that spontaneously casts and whose whole shtick is channeling attack spells through his weapon?

Because with a well-timed arcane strike the Duskblade can go nova on an opponent. Duskblades have a huge number of spells per day and they can sacrifice more than one to an arcane strike to create a huge pack of damage (although the attack bonus is capped to the highest level spell sacrificed). Check this thread for a good example.

[Eldariel]

Can someone explain to me why arcane strike is a must-have on a class that spontaneously casts and whose whole shtick is channeling attack spells through his weapon?

Well, it's a free +5 to all attacks and +5d4 on damage on a class that gets full attack channeling is full BAB and has lots of slots. The lack of action to activate Arcane Strike is a big boon and overall, it's a really convenient feat much like Knowledge Devotion. Sure, they're just number buffing but really good number buffing; at the point where you're attacking at base + 10 you can Power Attack with little regard for BAB losses and do more than enough for almost any fight. Leaves your mobility and utility actions available too; coupled with Channeling, large size and reach weapon, you can wreck even large masses of tough enemies at one go.

[Zaq]

The Delay Potion + Quick Potion trick mentioned earlier would help with the PA component.

True Strike isn’t potionable. Personal spells can’t be made into potions.

[DEMON]

Power Attack .... Find a way to use True Strike as a swift action and convert all of your BAB into damage (use a two-handed weapon for doubling).

Quick Cast is an ability available to Duskblades as soon as level 5.

Limited times per day, but when you need to nova, the option is there.

[bean illus]

By 13th level you should have a way to reliably activate enlarge person , and make sure to have a reach weapon.

Increase the number of strikes you can make, with Two Handed Fighting (i think), for even more Targets on your Nova.

[Zombulian]

True Strike isn’t potionable. Personal spells can’t be made into potions.

Oh really? I didn't see any rule on that.
Are you getting that from the "Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber" part?

[Eldariel]

Oh really? I didn't see any rule on that.
Are you getting that from the "Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber" part?

It's in Brew Potion:
"You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. Brewing a potion takes one day. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. The base price of a potion is its spell level × its caster level × 50 gp. To brew a potion, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one half this base price.

When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.

Any potion that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when creating the potion."

That's what mostly eliminates most personal spells from the equation; they tend to lack targets and in any case, you rarely want to be the target of one of those that does have one.

[Zombulian]

It's in Brew Potion:
"You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. Brewing a potion takes one day. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. The base price of a potion is its spell level × its caster level × 50 gp. To brew a potion, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one half this base price.

When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.

Any potion that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when creating the potion."

That's what mostly eliminates most personal spells from the equation; they tend to lack targets and in any case, you rarely want to be the target of one of those that does have one.

Hmmm but the potion rules on the SRD also say "The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect)." True Strike's target is "you", so if you're the effective caster of the spell it should work no?

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's explicit.

The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems...#creatingRings