Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

[Lord Torath]

Basically this. For the amount of time he was taking fire from that laser, the maximum total number of hits it can score under DW rules is 10. This one's twin linked, so that increases by 1. Hits that don't happen didn't necessarily miss, it's also possible they just glanced off armor or cover.

OK. Going with only 6 hits still leaves only a 14% chance of survival. 10 hits drops it to 3.0% But this math/crunch probably belongs in the Rules thread, and not the fluff one.

I'll just chalk it up to Artistic License and leave it at that.

Regarding the GrimDarkness, was the 2E Ultramarines codex ever overruled, as far as Ultramar being a shining example for humanity? Happy, well-fed people, productive industry, good environmental preservation (no toxic slag pits, etc), powerful military (apart from the Ultramarines themselves), etc., etc. Even after Hive Fleet Behemoth, Ultramar was still in great shape (aside from the polar fortresses), IIRC.

[Wraith]

Regarding the GrimDarkness, was the 2E Ultramarines codex ever overruled, as far as Ultramar being a shining example for humanity?

Ultramar is probably still considered Above Average compared to most other systems, but it still has its flaws.

Happy, well-fed people

Shia Calpurnia is an Arbites Enforcer who regularly engaged in riot-suppression against mobs of angry peasantry, and she has experienced more than one of the 500 Worlds in her tours. This is even before she uncovers a Chaos plot and gets involved with an Inquisitor to stop it; even on its Civilised Worlds, the usual problems of hunger, religious outrage and the likes are still a problem.

There are also Renegade Astartes Chapters living in Ultramar - the Death Shadows were virtually within sight of Macragge before hive Fleet Behemoth ate them - which is quite unusual for an area of space which is not warp-tainted or otherwise cut off.

productive industry, good environmental preservation (no toxic slag pits, etc)

Ultramar has Forge Worlds just like any other system, and they're still horrible places to live. Likewise there are massively overpopulated Hive Worlds, but Macragge is a rather pleasant Civilised World and tends to get used as the poster-child, giving Ultramar as a whole a good image.

powerful military (apart from the Ultramarines themselves)

Not necessarily more powerful in the sense that they just have bigger guns and better armour, but better organised due to it being centralised. The Ultramarines have a more intimate relationship with their human peers and tend to take a more direct hand in things like strategy and deployment instructions. While their Per Capita number of troops isn't notably high (certainly not compared to places like Cadia or Krieg), they're somewhat better at making use of what they do have.

Even after Hive Fleet Behemoth, Ultramar was still in great shape (aside from the polar fortresses), IIRC.

You mean Macragge, the Home Planet of the Ultramarines? The realm is Ultramar, Macragge is one world. And yes, it is in comparatively good shape after Behemoth, which "only" ate a small handful of systems before being halted. Although in timeline that was nearly 250 years ago so they've had chance to rebuild since then.

The fact that even after the atrocities of the Horus Heresy and the rush of Hive Fleet Behemoth, that Ultramar is still called The 500 Worlds suggests that if nothing else they're still able to rebuild and/or resettle worlds over long periods of time. Lorgar and the Word Bearers ruined ~100 of them, exterminating basically all life on each before moving on.

[Lord Torath]

You mean Macragge, the Home Planet of the Ultramarines? The realm is Ultramar, Macragge is one world. And yes, it is in comparatively good shape after Behemoth, which "only" ate a small handful of systems before being halted. Although in timeline that was nearly 250 years ago so they've had chance to rebuild since then.

Gah! Yes, I can't believe I called Macragge "Ultramar"! Sorry for the confusion!

[Wraith]

No worries - It's an easy mistake to make, given how hypocritical the Ultramarines can be about their so-called separation of forces as dictated by the Codex Astartes.

[Lord Torath]

What's the story on Vortex Bombs and similar weapons vs spacecraft? In the 2E Tyranid codex, the imperial flagship at the Battle for Macragge triggers its warp drives to generate an uncontrolled warp vortex that sucks both it and a bunch of tyranid ships into the warp. Is this at all an effective tactic? In my brain, the uncontrolled vortex both sucks nearby objects to the Warp, and shreds and scatters them in the process, resulting in complete and utter destruction of whatever gets sucked in. But I've heard of several accounts of Vortex Bombs doing little more than pulling a warp-capable ship into the warp, which, being warp capable, is only a minor inconvenience to said ship.

How are these typically handled in the fluff?

[hamishspence]

I think size matters. In Battlefleet Gothic, vortex torpedoes are powerful, but not instakill. I would guess that only a chunk of the ship, rather than the whole thing, is transferred, with the smaller vortex weaponry.

[Wraith]

A ship that is caught unprepared and gets sucked into the warp, is a dead ship. That's what Gellar Fields are for - if you don't have them raised when you enter the warp, then there is nothing keeping the warp out and daemons will eat your crew within minutes.

That's partially the reason as to why Tyranids are particularly vulnerable to that tactic; their method of FTL does not rely on warp travel, so they don't have Gellar Fields or alien equivalents at all.

In theory, a ship with its Gellar Field raised that gets hit by a Vortex Bomb/Missile could safely translate into the warp (albeit violently and unexpectedly)... But then they would be drifting in the warp without their engines engaged and without a course laid in, so they could end up pretty much anywhere. Like, in the heart of a sun. So even then, it's not fool-proof.

[Artanis]

There's also the fact that that "tactic" involved sacrificing a Battleship, which in many cases are literally irreplaceable. And even those Battleships that aren't full of centuries-old archeotech can still take generations to replace.

[Lord Torath]

That's partially the reason as to why Tyranids are particularly vulnerable to that tactic; their method of FTL does not rely on warp travel, so they don't have Gellar Fields or alien equivalents at all.

I have never heard this before (but I haven't read any novels). I know their passage affects the warp, making warp travel much more difficult in their wake (or used to, at any rate), and I always assumed they went through the warp as well. Isn't that where they encounter Space Hulks, which they then 'infect" and scatter through the galaxy?

[Grim Portent]

I have never heard this before (but I haven't read any novels). I know their passage affects the warp, making warp travel much more difficult in their wake (or used to, at any rate), and I always assumed they went through the warp as well. Isn't that where they encounter Space Hulks, which they then 'infect" and scatter through the galaxy?

Tyranids use Narvhals, special bio-ships that can detect the gravity of planets over vast distances and does something with that gravity to pull themselves and other bio-ships towards the planet at FTL speeds until they get close and get confused because there's too much gravity forcing them to make the final approach at sublight speeds. They make a tunnel where space is compressed somehow to speed up their relative travel time.

They usually infect space hulks by just letting genestealers make their way into the Galaxy and spread out on their own. Since Hulks are made of wrecked space ships a lot of them just have genestealers on them from before the constituent ships were ruined, sometimes they sneak on from a ship that tried to do some salvage work as well.

[Wraith]

I'm putting this here because strictly speaking, it concerns models but NOT the crunchy side and using them on the table-top.

Games Workshop have announced the designs for their first generation (because of course they'll milk this particular cash-cow until its nipples bleed) of 40k Funko Pops.

I mean, I guess they're cute? I'm probably not the target audience... But I will admit that when I saw the silhouette for the Space Wolf I got a little bit excited because I thought they might be bringing back the Doom Rider with his fiery head and all. Ah well.

[CrazyPenguin]

Games Workshop have announced the designs for their first generation (because of course they'll milk this particular cash-cow until its nipples bleed) of 40k Funko Pops.

I... don't hate this, actually. Idk, I've never really understood the vehement hatred some people have for Funko. I'm not a big enough fan of any of those chapters enough to go out and buy one, but if we got, say, a Carcharodon or Fire Warrior at some point down the line I'd definitely get those.

[Wraith]

While I think you'll be VERY lucky to ever get a Chapter even as famous as the Second Founding ones, let alone something as niche as the Carcharodons (who I too adore), I honestly expect that there will be a brief but impressive boom of people buying the Funkos and them painting them in their own Chapter colours as appropriate.

That's what I immediately thought as I saw the Space Wolf one - "His head is about the right shape, maybe if I swapped his body with the Dark Angel and sanded it down I could paint it to look like Doom Rider?"

[CrazyPenguin]

I'd say there's a good chance of getting at least Black Templars and Crimson Fists, but yeah, Carcharodons are mostly wishful thinking on my part. Re-painting is a good idea, but I don't need to put even more into my backlog.
So. Much. Grey. Plastic.

[Cikomyr]

I... don't hate this, actually. Idk, I've never really understood the vehement hatred some people have for Funko. I'm not a big enough fan of any of those chapters enough to go out and buy one, but if we got, say, a Carcharodon or Fire Warrior at some point down the line I'd definitely get those.

Toxic masculinity

[LansXero]

Toxic masculinity

Thats sarcasm, right? I know plenty of girls who hate them as well, mostly because how much their boyfriends spend on them, but also because they are ugly, oddly shaped, take a lot of room and have garishly clashing colors. I hate them because they are worth nothing to make beyond licensing fees and a few minutes on autocad and still sell at a frankly insulting price for what they are. And because of the completionist drive of many geeks, even obscure or unknown characters end up selling just to fill up collections. Ugh.

[Wraith]

As with so many things - 40k and Games Workshop included - the worst part about them are those within their associated fanbase whose behaviour and attitude is so repulsive that it's difficult to disassociate them from the product that they defend.

That Funkos themselves are cheaply made but expensive to buy doesn't help. I'm old enough to remember the Beanie Baby boom in the mid-90's which was a running joke long before it became a farce, and there's always echoes of that with any collectable - but ultimately useless - product line.

[snowblizz]

I must be old because I have no idea what a "funko" is.

Only that I don't want one.

[Cheesegear]

Toxic masculinity

Don't buy Funkos...Because real men don't buy Funkos?
Is that a thing? Or are you joking?

I mean. It wouldn't surprise me in the 40K community. But is it a thing for real? Are you hearing that somewhere?

As with so many things - 40k and Games Workshop included - the worst part about them are those within their associated fanbase whose behaviour and attitude is so repulsive that it's difficult to disassociate them from the product that they defend.

I have seen people fight over Funkos. Especially over what I can only imagine are the 'rarer ones'.
However, I'm always forced to remember that - just like M:tG - it's all about artificial scarcity. The company in question could make as many of [a thing] as they want to. They choose to introduce scarcity...Because. However, to me, that just leaves a massive secondary market that the producer gets no part of.

This is particularly bothersome, because a lot of Funkos seem to be identical...With a new hat. Even in this thread, there's been talking of buying some of them, and repainting them - that's how interchangeable they are. However, that comes naturally to people like us, 'cause we're hobbyists and painters to begin with.

But, as always I'm never happy to just stop at a single statement. "This product isn't for me." that's fine. But then, who is it for?

1. The first market is the existing market. People who collect Funkos in the first place. Gotta catch 'em all. You can gouge these people for pretty much anything you want. "But it's got a new hat!" So that's cool. Make bank. 'Cause fights, and massive secondary inflation. The distressing thing about this, for 40K, is that Space Marines and their colours are pretty much endless. You can milk Space Marine Chapters forever. Rad. I don't know yet if they plan on making 'rare' Funkos. At the moment it doesn't seem like it. For now.

2. People who buy specific Funkos, based on their fanbases. I know loads of these people. People who collect plastic tat based on something they like...Because. Now, when I wrote about this last time...I was genuinely shocked that there were actually people in these 40K Threads who actually would buy Space Marine Funkos. But, in my experience, these kinds of people only buy single, specific Funkos...That is, the ones they actually care about. Buy one...Leave the other 3 on the shelf.

It feels like Beanie Babies, and how massively stupid they became because of how the secondary after-market worked. There were specific ones that people were on the lookout for, that would cost several hundred dollarydoos, and people would literally fight over them. Whilst other Beanie Babies were left on the shelf, collecting dust and taking up valuable shelf-space. But they're Beanie Babies! You gotta put them front-and-centre!

I'm old enough to remember the Beanie Baby boom in the mid-90's which was a running joke long before it became a farce

I 'member.

[Wraith]

I have seen people fight over Funkos. Especially over what I can only imagine are the 'rarer ones'.
However, I'm always forced to remember that - just like M:tG - it's all about artificial scarcity. The company in question could make as many of [a thing] as they want to. They choose to introduce scarcity...Because. However, to me, that just leaves a massive secondary market that the producer gets no part of.

I think we've talked about this before, in regards to such things like the release of Space Hulk which seemed like a huge success until you actually broke down what happened.

"We sold out within hours! This game is an amazing success and we are a successful company!" Decreed GW, gleeful.
"Um, you mean you only sold 50 boxes when you could actually have sold 100 of them at no extra effort?" Said the rest of us, bewildered.

Maybe someone, somewhere in the marketing chain, is getting reviewed on how many units GW shifts as a percentage - if they make 50 boxes and sell 50 that's 100% sales, but if they make 100 boxes and only sell 99 then that's only 99%. I can't imagine any other reason as to why a company as big as GW don't try to have even a little bit of floating stock beyond release day and then wait to restock weeks later.

Well actually, I don't *need* to imagine why because I know perfectly well.
It's not just that they're generating buzz and hype every time they release 50 'limited editions' of their products in order to guarantee 50 sales, but it's also because many such companies are actually at the heart of the secondary sales scene under pseudonyms.
What they DON'T tell you, is that GW have their own eBay account setup to look like some FLGS or possibly just some guy with wholesale contacts and not directly linked to GW in order to sell off their "rare" old models at premium prices. It sounds like tin-foil-hat conspiracy talk, but it's actually a standard practice in the industry - I know a guy who runs the (unnamed) Amazon and eBay accounts for one of GW's competitors, and he's pretty much named the person who does his job but for GW, Mantic, Warlord Games and FFG....

I 'member.

Magic cards was a great example, though I was trying to remember what else came before Beanie Babies as I'm pretty sure it's a phenomenon that began in our lifetimes. Pogs were probably the biggest culprit (something which may be utterly bewildering to you young 'uns who are reading this) though Cabbage Patch Kids might be the Ur-example. There were collectables before then, but nothing quite so artificially manipulated

[Cheesegear]

There we collectables before then, but nothing quite so artificially manipulated

So I just Google'd for 'most expensive Funko Pops'.

Spoiler: $10 (Retail)

Show

Spoiler: $1800 (Secondary Market)

Show

I don't care that there's only 480 of them in the entire world. It's just a repaint, isn't it?
Am I insane?

...I just don't understand. I mean. I saw it with Beanie Babies. But, now that I'm older, it makes even less sense.

...I think Supreme does it the worst - that's a company that the young'uns might know about. It's literally just a word printed on a clothing article that you can buy down at Kmart.

[LansXero]

I know a guy who runs the (unnamed) Amazon and eBay accounts for one of GW's competitors, and he's pretty much named the person who does his job but for GW, Mantic, Warlord Games and FFG....

Isnt that illegal though? I mean, last year a distributor got taken to court for that exact reason. And well, then there is Rudy so what do I know.

I don't care that there's only 480 of them in the entire world. It's just a repaint, isn't it? Am I insane?

Its more like a recast, the head can move and the details are slightly different. But yeah, insane.

Now, imagine being the friend of a sucker who buys them at retail, when inevitably everyone overstocks and starts burning inventory at 2$. And watching said sucker get EVEN MORE FUNKOS to complete sets he didnt have before. Ugh. At least MTG cards you can play with and do something, Funkos dont even look good, they are this goofy bigheaded cartoon thing that doesnt even stand proper and scratches way too easy to even be used as a regular, if expensive, doll.

[Cheesegear]

Its more like a recast, the head can move

I thought all the heads could move? Aren't they bobble-heads?

and the details are slightly different.

They are? I have been fooled into thinking they're identical - detail-wise.

[LansXero]

I thought all the heads could move? Aren't they bobble-heads?



They are? I have been fooled into thinking they're identical - detail-wise.

No you are right they are identical... except for the stamp on the box. Ugh, vile things.

[Cheesegear]

No you are right they are identical... except for the stamp on the box. Ugh, vile things.

I can't read when I'm trying to see things!

[Wraith]

Isnt that illegal though? I mean, last year a distributor got taken to court for that exact reason. And well, then there is Rudy so what do I know.

I'm going to bat here for a process that I don't know very well so forgive me for being vague, but not in the way it was described to me.

GW (or anyone, as far as I am aware) aren't scalping their customers by "keeping back" a couple of hundred copies of something, selling out the rest and then hiking the price. It's more a case of, what else do they do with old stock that they can't put back on their shelves? Hence why I said it was for the secondary market, not meaning to imply new releases.

The switch from metal minis to resin was a good example. What did GW do with all those blister packs of metal Uriah Jacobis that no one wanted when Sisters was an actual codex, let alone when the next edition came out and they were terrible, and Uriah was the most terrible thing in that terrible book? The answer is they stuck them in a cupboard for a couple of years and then sold them on eBay as Collectors' pieces for at least what they would have gotten as new.

They'll also sell some of their damaged/returned items as "bits" or "spares" - not so much GW in this case, who have such a huge in-house manufacturing process that they literally opened a newly boxed Land Raider in order to give me the headlights that were missing from my sprue and bin the rest of it, but for smaller companies with greater overheads then recycling is a necessity.

Again, I am NOT in any way intending to imply that anyone is intentionally doing anything in an under-handed way! Just that if you're ever browsing eBay and come across a nigh-mint condition set of Blood Bowl blisters from 1998, you might be right to suspect that it's not some random collector who suddenly decided that they didn't need them any more after 21 years in his garage.

I thought all the heads could move? Aren't they bobble-heads?

The list of Bobble Headed Funkos is nearly as long as the static ones, but there are some which are one but not the other. The difference appears to be a small spring and an approximate +90% price increase.

[Cikomyr]

Thats sarcasm, right? I know plenty of girls who hate them as well, mostly because how much their boyfriends spend on them, but also because they are ugly, oddly shaped, take a lot of room and have garishly clashing colors. I hate them because they are worth nothing to make beyond licensing fees and a few minutes on autocad and still sell at a frankly insulting price for what they are. And because of the completionist drive of many geeks, even obscure or unknown characters end up selling just to fill up collections. Ugh.

Don't buy Funkos...Because real men don't buy Funkos?
Is that a thing? Or are you joking?

I mean. It wouldn't surprise me in the 40K community. But is it a thing for real? Are you hearing that somewhere?

Toxic Masculinity!!!! :-D

To be fair, it was mostly 40% punchline, 40% joke setup, 20% serious. I just find funny the reaction of certain men against anything "cute". It's not solely men either; some women eschew cute stuff for the sole reason of desire to eschew what they perceive to be "girly" things.

Hence toxic masculinity. But again : it was mostly a joke post. I dunno, I though the rhythm of the comment and the reply felt right

[LansXero]

I just find funny the reaction of certain men against anything "cute".

Oddly enough, I dont mind the keychain ones, which are sort of cute. Regular Funko POP though? Cute is far from what I'd use to describe it.

[Wraith]

But again : it was mostly a joke post. I dunno, I though the rhythm of the comment and the reply felt right

It was a valiant effort, I thought, but the deadpan style didn't translate across the internet.

To be fair though, there probably is a conversation to be had there.
I haven't seen any outrageous controversy over 40k Funkos, mostly justified observations that they are just overly-priced plastic tat depicting ridiculously shaped toy soldiers (the irony of a 40k fan complaining about that!) but given the last couple of years I can't help but feel that its only a matter of time until someone starts a boycott of the "little kiddies' toys" or something equally as mindless.

[Cheesegear]

Now, imagine being the friend of a sucker who buys them at retail [...] And watching said sucker get EVEN MORE FUNKOS to complete sets he didnt have before.

mostly justified observations that they are just overly-priced plastic tat depicting ridiculously shaped toy soldiers (the irony of a 40k fan complaining about that!)

I have a friend who collects Funkos. All the Funkos. Even Funkos of IPs he doesn't even like.
I'm like...What the Hell?

He then turns it back, saying well don't I play with toy soliders?

Yes. I play with toy soldiers. I build them. I paint them. Then I play games with them. Then I sell them 'cause they're ****
Funkos? ...Just sit on your shelf. A third of them haven't even been removed from their boxes.

As before, I mentioned artificial scarcity in the same sentence as M;tG. However, in that same vein, the rare and mythic cards in M;tG are also generally significantly more powerful that some of the more common cards. Not only are cards in M;tG more scarce...But, rules sell models cards. That, I can understand. What I don't understand is opening dozens and dozens of loot boxes Booster Packs when you could get a full playset (4) of even certain Mythic Rares for less cost than it would take you to buy the same number of Boosters, naturally.

My point is, toy soliders have a purpose.
Magic cards - despite artificial scarcity - have a purpose.

This is why I stopped buying LEGO, moving to Warhammer...Way back when I was 8.

I just don't understand the 'collect to collect' mindset. To me, it borders on a compulsion... Which, sadly, in my anecdotal evidence is reflected in the fanbase of Funkos.