Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

[Cheesegear]

People keep saying this and yet nothing ever gets cited ( with quotes please)

Pfft. I'm going to rifle through books and re-listen to audios just to find a two or three sentence paragraph for some guy on a casual forum I don't even know.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Because you see, there's nothing I like doing more while reading a book for fun whilst on the toilet, than tabulating the page number and quote on everything that might come up one day several years after I read it.
Good one kid.

[comicshorse]

Pfft. I'm going to rifle through books and re-listen to audios just to find a two or three sentence paragraph for some guy on a casual forum I don't even know.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Because you see, there's nothing I like doing more while reading a book for fun whilst on the toilet, than tabulating the page number and quote on everything that might come up one day several years after I read it.
Good one kid.

Fair enough. Don't provide proof. But you can't expect anyone to believe anything you say when you refuse to back it up, kid

[lord_khaine]

Pfft. I'm going to rifle through books and re-listen to audios just to find a two or three sentence paragraph for some guy on a casual forum I don't even know.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Because you see, there's nothing I like doing more while reading a book for fun whilst on the toilet, than tabulating the page number and quote on everything that might come up one day several years after I read it.
Good one kid.

Your certainly not in a position to call others "kid" when your the one acting the least mature out of all involved.

[Cheesegear]

Fair enough. Don't provide proof.

I can tell you books I read, and I'm fairly certain I can give you the details of every book. So can lots of people.
But, you're essentially saying that what people read, and their intepretations of scenes is meaningless unless they can cite Chapter and Verse (or, at the very least, you've read the same books that they have).
Except that's really hard in 30K/40K, because there's so much stuff to read, and some of it even conflicts, and some people have read novels and entire series that other people haven't read, which makes it even harder to have conversations because not everyone is *ahem* on the same page.

[Brookshw]

Your certainly not in a position to call others "kid" when your the one acting the least mature out of all involved.

No, I'll give him that one. Even if a bit of tongue in cheek, Cheese did open the "kid" door first. That is condescending and dismissive.

[Wraith]

Your version doesn't make much sense since:

I'm not saying that it does. I'm saying that's how it is portrayed in the book.

"When the bombs were falling" was a flavour text, but the gist is still the same. The first time the Thousand Sons knew that the Wolves were in orbit, according to the novel, was when their ships started exploding and drop pods began to land on Tizca.

Russ still did make an attempt at diplomacy first, it was Magnus own fault for not answering anything.

Russ: "Hey, you're under arrest! I'm dragging you back to Dad in chains and he's gonna stomp you back into the stone age!"
Magnus: *silence*
Russ: *blood-curdling scream and the berzerker fury begins*

That's not diplomacy. That's many, many long steps away even from making an arrest, which is what the EMPEROR told him to do.

the reason biological/nuclear weapons are usually considered war crimes it's precisely because they have all sort of nasty lingering effects and spread to civilians in the area pretty easy.

That's an anachronism. Our moralities and laws regarding the conduct of warfare do not apply to the 31st millennium, and disregards the Imperial technology which is portrayed as not having or even alleviating those problems.

Wasn't Russ the emprah's butcher? He's the one who thinks it's a greaty idea to murderize every woman and child of Prospero for the great crime of being in the same planet as Magnus. Or who knows the emprah thought he needed two butchers.

Russ called himself the Emperor's Executioner, but no-one else ever did. He was sent to stop one of his nameless brothers for an unspecified crime against the Imperium - again, we don't know what Russ' original orders where, in the same way that the purge at Prospero was supposed to be an arrest and not a genocide. His conduct was a) influenced by the arch-traitor Horus, and b) not necessarily indicative of the Emperor's own actions.

Master of Mankind start.

Fair enough, thank you.

Ten thousand custodes plus four assassin temples plus twenty legion of super mutants specialized in numerous aspects of warfare.

The Astartes didn't exist until after the Primarch project, which happened right at the very end of the Unification Wars. The Assassins similarly post-date the Unification Wars, and were Malcador's handiwork.

Yet zero super diplomatic/medic organizations. The legions were the first thing that made contact with all civilizations outside terra and they let their guns do the speaking more often than not.

Not true on either claim. There were ~4,300 Expeditiary fleets comprised of Astartes, the Imperial Army and Mechanicum, with 60,000 "compliance groups" dedicated to preliminary exploration and colonisation.
As for "let their guns do the speaking more often than not", that's an abuse of statistics out of context. There are plenty of examples where civilisations were taken peacefully - Lorgar was best at that, Horus did a whole bunch just by being famous and turning up in person - and there are some (like Murder) where peaceful compliance was literally impossible. All of them were first approached diplomatically when possible, even if they usually ended in bloodshed.

The emprah literally devours the souls of his people and toook children from the conquered families to turn into super mutant warriors. Where exactly is the mercy in that?

The alternative is that every man, woman and child gets eaten alive by daemons and/or flayed by assorted xenos.

Also, every legion was armed with planet-destroying weaponry and permission to use it whenever they felt like it. If the emprah ever cared about collateral damage, he didn't really show it.

Again, that's a bit mean-spirited. There aren't that many examples of exterminatus during the Crusade, because the Emperor trusted his guys to use it only as a last resort and 99% of the time that trust was well placed. Just because they all could do it and one or two did, doesn't make it the preferred and primary method, which proves my point of the Emperor *usually* being pretty good about wasteful deaths unless other options have been exhausted.

Oh, and remember Angron's homeworld? The one filled with slavers that made people fight to the death for their amusement? They joined the empire and were allowed to keep all their ways. Angron is the one that finally comes back and purges them after going full traitor. Think about it. The emprah was perfectly fine with enslaving people and making them fight to the death for the amusement of a few.

First you complain that the Emperor was too wasteful with lives and a rampant fascist, and NOW you're complaining that he didn't take the time to micromanage every planet he came across and systematically eradicate every single morally and culturally offensive thing that he came across? Make up your mind!

In seriousness though, that's not really a sign that the Emperor was a hypocrite or otherwise making it up as he went along. That just suggests that his own statements about being on a strict schedule and needing the Crusade to progress quickly and efficiently are consistently adhered to - he's god xenos on one side, rebels on the other and Chaos hiding beneath, a bit of slavery really isn't the biggest thing he has to worry about.

Wraith : Love your post. I have slightly different interpretation of bits of Curze's character but still that's a great insight into Curze

Thank you I'd like to respond to your posts more if I had the time, but there's a lot to get through.

In particular, your request for citations. I'd like to provide more, but unfortunately from my memory - though I can't speak for others making their own points - a lot the things I suggest tend to be themes stretched through an entire book, or more. I'd point you to a page or paragraph if I could, but "Curze wants to be punished and he tries to antagonise Dorn until he will do it for him" really is "the entire contents of the Lightning Tower", y'know? I'll try to provide more if I can but a lot of it is open to interpretation based on a whole prolonged plot.

It's also something we should all bare in mind: The Horus Heresy novels are not "The Truth" of what happened in the Heresy. They're stories collected from that era, almost in a role-play fashion, depicting what people *think happened*.
That is short-hand for "The writers need a way to cover up plot holes and some characters having more than one personality", but it adds a sense of mythology to the setting that really isn't worth arguing as being "fact". It's only "true" in so far as "that's what the book says, but the book might be lying".

[Cheesegear]

Your certainly not in a position to call others "kid" when your the one acting the least mature out of all involved.

I literally did not know the word 'kid' was somehow offensive.

In particular, your request for citations. I'd like to provide more, but unfortunately from my memory - though I can't speak for others making their own points - a lot the things I suggest tend to be themes stretched through an entire book, or more. I'd point you to a page or paragraph if I could, but "Curze wants to be punished and he tries to antagonise Dorn until he will do it for him" really is "the entire contents of the Lightning Tower", y'know? I'll try to provide more if I can but a lot of it is open to interpretation based on a whole prolonged plot.

There's also the problem that everything that happened before the Heresy, is very rarely brought up. We don't really know who Curze was before he blew up Nostramo. We only really have Index Astartes II (a very old book from 3.5 ed., which I do have), and extrapolated ideas.

[Lord Torath]

...The more I think about El'Johnson, despite how much his own books sucked, the more I realise what a great character he is. Guilliman hates him because Johnson just completely disregards everything that Guilliman says, instead of allowing himself to be distracted by it like Alpharius or obsessed with it like Lorgar. He's also the only one throughout the Heresy who seems to be doing the right thing in the eyes of the reader - calling out Russ for being an *******, calling out Guilliman for being a usurper, going after Curze for being a monster....I really hope he gets a good novel some day soon, he needs the PR boost.

Nah. If he gets his own book, they'll only GrimDarkness him up, providing GrimDark reasons for everything he does. Better off just sticking to your own headcannon that he's a pretty decent guy.

[comicshorse]

Thank you I'd like to respond to your posts more if I had the time, but there's a lot to get through.

In particular, your request for citations. I'd like to provide more, but unfortunately from my memory - though I can't speak for others making their own points - a lot the things I suggest tend to be themes stretched through an entire book, or more. I'd point you to a page or paragraph if I could, but "Curze wants to be punished and he tries to antagonise Dorn until he will do it for him" really is "the entire contents of the Lightning Tower", y'know? I'll try to provide more if I can but a lot of it is open to interpretation based on a whole prolonged plot.

It's also something we should all bare in mind: The Horus Heresy novels are not "The Truth" of what happened in the Heresy. They're stories collected from that era, almost in a role-play fashion, depicting what people *think happened*.
That is short-hand for "The writers need a way to cover up plot holes and some characters having more than one personality", but it adds a sense of mythology to the setting that really isn't worth arguing as being "fact". It's only "true" in so far as "that's what the book says, but the book might be lying".

Good points and I'm prepared to argue interpretations (Hell, I love arguing interpretations !) all day. Its just if things like 'this was 100% successful' get said that I feel that needs to be backed-up.
Obviously even then there are going to be problems. A quote from a Thousand Sons about the Space Wolves has to be read with knowledge of all of the bad history (and fundamental clash of cultures) that exist between those two Legions

[Cheesegear]

Good points and I'm prepared to argue interpretations (Hell, I love arguing interpretations !) all day.

Only if you cite Chapter and Verse though. In fact, that's not good enough. The actual quote.

As Drasius said, Horus said 'in one book' that speed-of-conquest was used as a ****-measuring contest. I agree. Because I have also read it. I don't need Chapter and Verse. I don't remember the book. But I did read it. Curze was 'one of the fastest, if not the fastest, and most-effective conquerer'. I don't remember which book it was in. But I know I read it. But, it happens before the Heresy, so it's never really brought up. I don't need to prove it to you, because other people are backing me up who have also read it. The mere mention of Curze in a Sector caused all heretical and rebellious activity to stop - and he never even goes to the planet. Not only can Curze Pacify planets quickly, but he can Pacify a planet without even going to it.

You haven't read it. So naturally you disagree. Fair enough. But to actually demand a quote for a fictional novel on a casual forum, in a non-academic setting is pretty next level. In any other setting, you'd be right to demand proof. I haven't written an academic paper or journal article in a long, long time, but I still get how 'evidence-based practice' works. Here, though? Come on, man.
(I didn't use 'kid' that time. Because apparently that's a thing)

We also know that The Emperor never punished Curze for his methods. But we know that the Emperor does punish the Primarchs occasionally because we've read it happen to others. But why was Lorgar punished? You'll notice that Lorgar was slow, it was also a point of pride to him - at first - that he could sway worlds without firing a shot, it just took a long time. Curze murders countless people, quickly, and he's not punished.
Ergo. The Emperor must be okay with it. Also, Angron. Also, Fulgrim. Alpharius conquered worlds by intentionally disrupting them. That's not in any book. That's an extrapolated logic chain. But it makes sense, because Lorgar was censured. Curze wasn't.

[comicshorse]

Only if you cite Chapter and Verse though. .

I can't help noticing you left out the sentence that comes right after that one. The one that does explain why I'd like citations in some cases. "Its just if things like 'this was 100% successful' get said that I feel that needs to be backed-up.

Ergo. The Emperor must be okay with it.

He was ok with it to a point. Certainly I don't think Dorn would have thought of bringing Curze before the Emperor if he wasn't pretty damn sure the Emperor wouldn't be ok with his latest exploits

Also, Angron

Angron ok with massive bloodshed at all costs. You do surprise me. I'm not sure Angron cared what his brothers did as long as they weren't right there, annoying him

Also, Fulgrim.

Wasn't Fulgrim the one who informed on him to Dorn ?

[Brookshw]

But why was Lorgar punished? You'll notice that Lorgar was slow, it was also a point of pride to him - at first - that he could sway worlds without firing a shot, it just took a long time. Curze murders countless people, quickly, and he's not punished.

My recollection is hazy on this one, but I recall that Lorgar's censure was compounded by his spreading of notion "Emperor as God" in contradiction of the Imperial Truth, and not just being slow (though I do recall Emps telling him to pick up the pace after the fact). Is my recollection wrong on the compound issues provoking the censure?

Citation not requested or required.

[Wraith]

Nah. If he gets his own book, they'll only GrimDarkness him up, providing GrimDark reasons for everything he does. Better off just sticking to your own headcannon that he's a pretty decent guy.

Jesus H Christ man; way to kill my buzz there!

You're right though - there's more than one way that El'Johnson's story can go. I like to think that the particular GrimDark way they'll do it is to have him be loyal, and noble, and with only the best of intentions.... Only for his Legion to get completely the wrong idea and FUBAR it with their silly robes-and-secrets nonsense thereafter.... But it could be worse.

He was ok with it to a point. Certainly I don't think Dorn would have thought of bringing Curze before the Emperor if he wasn't pretty damn sure the Emperor wouldn't be ok with his latest exploits

If I remember rightly, there were only two Primarchs that the Emperor directly rebuked (at least, for which we know the reasons) - Lorgar for being slow and religious, and Magnus for breaking with Nikea.

Everything else - Dorn and Curze, Leman Russ and Angron, Guilliman and Alpharius - is all conjecture or the presumptions of the Primarchs themselves.
I think someone said it above but I don't remember who - if the Emperor wants to make it known that he is unhappy with someone, he's perfectly capable of doing so... And he chose not to. Make of that what you will.

Is my recollection wrong on the compound issues provoking the censure?

Nope, you're right. That he also punched Malcador and called the Emperor out to back him up probably didn't help his case, either.

[Destro_Yersul]

I can't help noticing you left out the sentence that comes right after that one. The one that does explain why I'd like citations in some cases. "Its just if things like 'this was 100% successful' get said that I feel that needs to be backed-up.

Cheese might not be, but I'm enough of a pedant to look some up.

Index Astartes, White Dwarf 259, p60.

"The mere mention of [the Night Lords] presence in a system enough to ensure that civilized planets paid all outstanding tithes, ceased all illegal activity completely, and killed those who bore deformities rather than invite a purge from the Night Lords."

Bit old, so perhaps something more recent. Soul Hunter, Chapter 13, p192 in the Omnibus edition.

"the Night Lords were the Emperor's most potent weapon. Entire worlds would surrender their arms as the scanners revealed that the Astartes vessels that had translated into orbit bore the runic symbols of the VIII legion. In these waning years, the Night Lords encountered less and less resistance, as deviant societies abandoned their defiance rather than die under the claws of the most feared Imperial Legion."

same page.

"In their wake, shattered populations lived the lives of loyal, silent Imperial citizens, never even whispering a word of rebellion."

[comicshorse]

Thanks ( I have to say that, I asked for it )

That's certainly testament to a ruthless drive and energy.

The only part I'd really have issue with is 'the Emperor's most potent' weapons sentence. Not that I doubt it's there it's just that this a Night Lord book and I can't help wondering if a Space Wolf novel would have a similar quote about them being the Emperor's finest

Still I'll leave the revelation that the NL are better than every other Legion to be handled by fans of the Space Wolves/ Alpha Legion/ etc


P.S
I just flipped back and re-read my posts. I think the 'citation' thing is kinda drowning everything else out because I asked for citations on only 5 statements (sometimes again on the same statement when it was repeated)

[Cheesegear]

Bit old, so perhaps something more recent. Soul Hunter

It's in Soul Hunter!? But everyone's read that. I thought I'd read it in some short story during the Heresy that no-one's read because I'm a 40K!Hipster who reads Advent Calendar stories like some kind of huge nerd.
Guess not.

Then how is this new information? It's Soul Hunter!

The only part I'd really have issue with is 'the Emperor's most potent' weapons sentence.

Except you quoted Index Astartes II to me a page ago.
The Night Lords were the guys who got called in when other Primarchs failed.
You already know that they're the most potent Legion* because you quoted it at me.

*'Weapons', probably is the wrong word. Because Custodes exist.

[comicshorse]

Except you quoted Index Astartes II to me a page ago.
The Night Lords were the guys who got called in when other Primarchs failed.
You already know that they're the most potent Legion* because you quoted it at me.

*'Weapons', probably is the wrong word. Because Custodes exist.

And I answered that when you raised it

From the Lexicanum
[

B]This approach made the Night Lords well-suited for dealing with worlds brought into the Imperium during the Crusade who were subsequently lax in achieving full compliance, or who even threatened to rebel. They were heavily utilized as a force that solidifed the Imperium's grip after initial pacification was achieved;

[/B]


Posted by ME

Indicating the Night Lords weren't actually doing the heavy lifting of the pacification merely turning up to torture a few thousands of people to drive the message home. What message is debatable

Rather a flip answer I admit but makes the relevant point the NL aren't taking on forces that defeated their brothers but nudging/ terrorizing conquered worlds who aren't moving fast enough into full compliance or might even be considering back-sliding

Interestingly do these count for the NL. Cause if they pad their score by finishing off other people's worlds its gonna be fairly easy to be 'the quickest'

Then how is this new information? It's Soul Hunter!

Hey if you want to ignore it cause its too old. I'm cool with that

[DataNinja]

Your version doesn't make much sense since:
a) How would the thousand sons simply miss the whole space furries fleet+assorted support entering their orbit at their very homeworld?
b) If they only noticed it when the bombs were falling, then too bad, everybody except maybe Magnus would be dead right there. And Russ would've had zero reason to come down, just keep bombing until the planet cracks, no personal duel needed. Whereas in Inferno the fact they see it coming allows them to rise a super psychic shield that protects them from the bombardment and forces the space furries to descend and get close and personal.

Because A) Magnus was deliberately obfuscating things in remorse, and B) I'm fairly sure it was mentioned that they had some defenses (including the shield) that were simply up 24/7, that Magnus could not disable without arousing suspicion.

[LeSwordfish]

I literally did not know the word 'kid' was somehow offensive.

Perhaps a distinction worth making here is that it isn't "offensive" per se, merely smug and demeaning.

[Forum Explorer]

Jesus H Christ man; way to kill my buzz there!

You're right though - there's more than one way that El'Johnson's story can go. I like to think that the particular GrimDark way they'll do it is to have him be loyal, and noble, and with only the best of intentions.... Only for his Legion to get completely the wrong idea and FUBAR it with their silly robes-and-secrets nonsense thereafter.... But it could be worse.

I like the idea that El'Johnson was paranoid, and socially awkward. He doesn't really get other people, but this being 40K, seeing the worst in people usually means you are right about him. But he didn't realize that Luther was loyal to him, or why people had grudges against the Emperor in the first place.

[LansXero]

I like the idea that El'Johnson was paranoid, and socially awkward. He doesn't really get other people, but this being 40K, seeing the worst in people usually means you are right about him. But he didn't realize that Luther was loyal to him, or why people had grudges against the Emperor in the first place.

Is this the same swell guy who punched out the head of one of his marines for disagreeing with him, who trained and condoned the Dreadwing, letting them loose on Macragge's civilians and who openly consorts with a warp engine?

Truly, an outstanding guy, lets hope they dont 'grimdark' him (cause its a verb now).

[Forum Explorer]

Is this the same swell guy who punched out the head of one of his marines for disagreeing with him, who trained and condoned the Dreadwing, letting them loose on Macragge's civilians and who openly consorts with a warp engine?

Truly, an outstanding guy, lets hope they dont 'grimdark' him (cause its a verb now).

I fail to see how any of that contradicts anything I said.

[LansXero]

I fail to see how any of that contradicts anything I said.

Sorry, misquoted you instead of the guy who claimed El'Jonson was a good guy. Still, he is more than socially awkward, there is a lot of darkness and secrecy both to his character and his legion long before they started wearing robes and hunting the fallen

[Forum Explorer]

Sorry, misquoted you instead of the guy who claimed El'Jonson was a good guy. Still, he is more than socially awkward, there is a lot of darkness and secrecy both to his character and his legion long before they started wearing robes and hunting the fallen

I mean socially awkward in the sense that he just doesn't get people. For example, he doesn't understand why not being acknowledged for his accomplishments would upset Pertrubo. Hypothetically speaking.

I feel his darkness comes more from the paranoia side of things. When you don't trust people, you might end up doing some pretty questionable stuff as a result.

[Drasius]

[QUOTE=comicshorse;23822980] But why are you going on the impression you get rather than what I actually wrote ? Kinda irrelevant. Moving on

Because that's the impression you wished to convey - that the NL's were bullies more than a fighting force of astartes?

People keep saying this and yet nothing ever gets cited ( with quotes please)

Destro Yersul already answered this, but it brings up an interesting point - you said earlier that you loved the NL trilogy, yet a couple of those references were from said trilogy. How well do you remember the books?

So we get Curze saying how great he is an a way that indicates he's only really saying stuff to wind up his brother.
And how on earth do these 'ten other worlds' know about this in any way that they'd find even slightly believable

No, we get Curze making a point (which has always been a thing of his) ... and also riling up his brother because he can.

It's pretty easy for the Imperium to simply supply the 30k equivalent of gun-cam footage, or a public square camrea recording. Hell, let a few towns worth of refugees leave the plant and they'll tell anyone who asks just how quickly they should do as they're told when the Night Lords come calling.

I've read 'Unrembered Empire' (albeit years ago) and I don't remember that in the slightest. As for the Nightfane series that's post the Heresy when the Empire has gone to hell. It's unfair to compare success rates then when the NL have no worlds undergoing the same problems and stresses. Post Heresy was much worse than anything the Primarchs could have been expected to prepare for and as the NL weren't there we have nothing to compare the UM worlds with. (IMHO if the NL had stayed loyal there worlds would have fallen to chaos cults so fast it'd make you're head spin)

It's actually a plot point in a further book, the Dreadwing gets called in by the Lion and proceed to dig out the rebels via orbital bombardment, but only due to the Lion doing underhanded stuff that went against the vote of the triumverate of him/gulliman/bird boy. He gets called out about it when the other two find out (Curze gleefully tells them when he's dragged in front of them in chains and about to be executed).

As for Nightfane, true, but it's one of the three you asked for off the top of my head. If I went digging, I have little doubt that I would find another example. I'm not even sure it serves much purpose anyway, because comparing legions at the top of the list for "least likely to rebel" when deciding if one method was slightly better than another. Really, you should be comparing the NL work to the WE since it's butchery, but the NL is done with a purpose (or, was in 30k, not so much after the timeskip). If the NL's really are just doing it for the lulz, why would their rate of compliance be significatnyl higher than a legion like the WE?

Good point. Fastest gives the Emperor what he wants.
I'd still say 'fastest isn't best' by any normal desire to build a stable, successful empire it just seems the Emperor's priority list reads (in reverse order)

10- Lack of friendly casualties
9- Minimal damage to planets ability to serve the empire
8-fast
7-fast
6-fast
5-fast
4-fast
3-fast
2- Did I mention fast
1-FAST !

This also assumes that the NL way IS fastest in every situation. Which I'm not convinced by. See end of my reply

Doesn't need to always be the fastest, as long as it trends to the top over time. If you really wanted to make a solid argument, you'd be asking what happens to the rate of compliance when the carrot remains, but the stick is removed, and then pointing none-to-subtely at Nostromo. Then it becomes a question of if the Imperium's rate of integration of the local populace can be done before the horrors of what was done to people 1/2/3/etc generations ago fade from memory. Hell, ask most of the people born post 2000 about the war to end all wars and there will be very little beyond some vauge things they were told in high school that they weren't paying attention to. If anything, the subject gets glorified via the lastest FPS to be set in whichever war is currently the new/old hotness for a setting. That is the true measure of how terrifying the NL occupation is, that their influence lasts multiple generationsafter the last survivor of their invasion has been pt in the ground.

Sure
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nostramo

As mentioned, that's a single world that they never pacifed in the first place. A single instance of a planet reverting to type doesn't invalidate that they had an incredibly high percentage of worlds they pacified choose to remain loyal to the Imperium. Granted, it doesn't look good that it's their homeworld, but again, if the discussion is being based around "the NL's had one of the lowest rebellion rates of worlds they pacified" that's not the same as "the NL's never had a world that they pacified or controlled rebel, ever". You seem to be taking the later point while arguing the former.

Realistic bit fine, yes its a weird setting, no arguments
But yes there are more efficient ways. That's why the Emperor has 18 Legions and not one. Why the other Legions aren't told to use the NL tactics as they would if there way was the most efficient way

Long term or short term? 'Cause while integration is best in the long run, if you need the galaxy to stop being a bunch of turns RIGHT NOW, then fear is very much the most efficient in the short term.

As to why the other legions aren't told to do it the Night Lord way, it's because they're different legions, duh. You don't try and make Shaq a shooting guard just because that's where Jordan played, same way you wouldn't make a submarine captain fly a plane or a 100m sprinter run a marathon. While sufficiently talented individuals could do it, they'd never do it as well as someone suited to it. It's not to say that the NL's didn't use diplomacy where it was the best option (they did), nor that Gulliman didn't have a cadre of Destroyers to wreck stuff up and conduct some scorched earth actions (he did). As before, don't fall into the common trap of warhammer and think that just because legion [x] has something as their hat, that it's all they can do.

Because employing a Legion of murderous sadists is so often is code for 'we're the good guys'

The Imperium isn't the good guys and never claims to be. They're the least worst option for humanity out of the very few options that work in a galaxy with giant fungus men, immortal dynastic death robots, space elves who feed off pain and suffering and using the home of literal gods for your transportation network which also happens to basically be hell.

The fact that the NL's didn't pacify Nostramo is irrelevant. Its whether Curze tactics are actually efficient that is the core of the argument. It was the basic NL tactic ( slaughter huge numbers in sickening atrocities until they get so scared they surrender) that Curze used on Nostramo and then passed on to his Legion to be their major M.O.
And it failed. Curze left Nostramo with specific rules on how the planet was to be run and they disobeyed him. They rebelled. And Curze did what he does best.

[I]EFFICIENCY[/I]

Consider a scenario. Two planets are putting up heavy resistance. It's felt wiping out their capital in a act of terror will break their will. One planet is being attacked by ...The Imperial Fists say (A) one by the NL (B)
(A) The IF organize a lance strike and press the button and wipe out the city. No friendly casualties, an hours work
(B) The NL go in and attack the place. Batter down the defences until the enemy surrender, round up everybody and then skin them all alive over the next few days. Casualties occur and days pass
Why should (B) be considered the more efficient method ?

Consider that the NL's won't be doing B) unless A) is unavailable to them, unless by doing B), it saves them time in making other worlds comply without having to fire a shot at all.

In fact, I'll posit a highly loaded scenario of my own for you:
- The fists can't simply orbital barrage the centre of resistance away, due to void shields, and so must make planetfall, and take casualties fighting room to room against almost equal opponents. They then must repeat this for every ccentre of resistance because the enemy is stubborn.
- The NL's play up their schtik and do their terror warfare thing, making an example of the first city and broadcasting it to everyone else and promising that unless everyone surrenders in the next 5 minutes, they'll do the same to every city. The planet surrenders and the NL's take 1 assaults worth of casualties instead of mutliple and the populace is cowed out of any thought of rebellion.

Which of those is more efficient? We can come up with counter scenarios all day long, in the end, all we can go with is what's been presented as canon, and that is that the Night Lords terror shenanigans worked, and worked well.

My recollection is hazy on this one, but I recall that Lorgar's censure was compounded by his spreading of notion "Emperor as God" in contradiction of the Imperial Truth, and not just being slow (though I do recall Emps telling him to pick up the pace after the fact). Is my recollection wrong on the compound issues provoking the censure?

Citation not requested or required.

Correct. Lorgar was told to put a cork in his spouting of the Emperor's divinity as it was diametrically opposed to the Emperor's campaign to stamp out the idea of gods and worship to stave the chaos gods entities of the warp. The other half of it was because Lorgar was being Gulliman lite, all the bureaucracy with none of the macraggian efficiency and he was the slowest of all the legions in his efforts to get everyone to believe because they can't be a part of your cult if they're dead.

Cheese might not be, but I'm enough of a pedant to look some up.

Index Astartes, White Dwarf 259, p60.

"The mere mention of [the Night Lords] presence in a system enough to ensure that civilized planets paid all outstanding tithes, ceased all illegal activity completely, and killed those who bore deformities rather than invite a purge from the Night Lords."

Bit old, so perhaps something more recent. Soul Hunter, Chapter 13, p192 in the Omnibus edition.

"the Night Lords were the Emperor's most potent weapon. Entire worlds would surrender their arms as the scanners revealed that the Astartes vessels that had translated into orbit bore the runic symbols of the VIII legion. In these waning years, the Night Lords encountered less and less resistance, as deviant societies abandoned their defiance rather than die under the claws of the most feared Imperial Legion."

same page.

"In their wake, shattered populations lived the lives of loyal, silent Imperial citizens, never even whispering a word of rebellion."

Thanks. Fairly sure it noted in a number of palces elsewhere too, but those are more than enough.

Rather a flip answer I admit but makes the relevant point the NL aren't taking on forces that defeated their brothers but nudging/ terrorizing conquered worlds who aren't moving fast enough into full compliance or might even be considering back-sliding

Interestingly do these count for the NL. Cause if they pad their score by finishing off other people's worlds its gonna be fairly easy to be 'the quickest'

That's not all they do though, it's simply that when the NL's are in the area and stuff has gone south, might as well call in the experts. They still won plenty of battle honours bringing their own set of worlds to compliance.

As to the second, you'd assume not, since putting down a rebellion is not the same as bringing a world into compliance. That only makes the NL's record even more noteworthy, if they can be up in the top couple of legions for number of compliant worlds while ALSO picking up after the other, less successful legions.

[Brookshw]

The Imperium isn't the good guys and never claims to be. They're the least worst option for humanity out of the very few options that work in a galaxy with giant fungus men, immortal dynastic death robots, space elves who feed off pain and suffering and using the home of literal gods for your transportation network which also happens to basically be hell.

There's a brief exchange in Cult of the Spiral Dawn that I always liked

Spoiler

Show

"Remind me again why we're fighting for these bastards, Cross?" Trujilo asked.
"Because the other ones are much worse, my friend"
And that's the whole sorry story of the Imperium, Cross decided.

[comicshorse]

[QUOTE=Drasius;23823851]

But why are you going on the impression you get rather than what I actually wrote ? Kinda irrelevant. Moving on

Because that's the impression you wished to convey - that the NL's were bullies more than a fighting force of astartes?
.

Er...if that's the impression I wanted to convey, why would I explicitly write that that WASN'T what I meant ? Isn't it more likely other people simply got the wrong impression which was why I wrote to clarify

Destro Yersul already answered this, but it brings up an interesting point - you said earlier that you loved the NL trilogy, yet a couple of those references were from said trilogy. How well do you remember the books?

Well enough for books I read three years ago or so. Both the quotes were from the same two page section (out of roughly a 1,000 pages). Which was one of the less interesting parts (IMHO) as none of the characters are speaking, it's just narration of dubious provenance

It's pretty easy for the Imperium to simply supply the 30k equivalent of gun-cam footage, or a public square camrea recording. Hell, let a few towns worth of refugees leave the plant and they'll tell anyone who asks just how quickly they should do as they're told when the Night Lords come calling.

And people believe the propaganda provided by their enemies why ? Or let hordes of potential infiltrators on planet and just don'tr shoot them down ? That's before we even get to the fact you're even more depopulating the planet, wasting time gathering them up, wasting space and resources shipping them to have your ships ships their on blown out of the air
But if we're presuming magical flow of information how about that the NL's have been known to take surrenders and then murder everyone anyway. That's gonna do wonders for people's motivation to just give up. Which is of course the flipside of terror tactics. If people don't give up you've just convinced them to fight to the last man and bullet. To make suicidal attacks and blow themselves up to take you with them. You've just shot yourself in the foot

It's actually a plot point in a further book, the Dreadwing gets called in by the Lion and proceed to dig out the rebels via orbital bombardment, but only due to the Lion doing underhanded stuff that went against the vote of the triumverate of him/gulliman/bird boy. He gets called out about it when the other two find out (Curze gleefully tells them when he's dragged in front of them in chains and about to be executed).

So this is after the invasion by the Word Bearers ? Where the rebels are most likely to be infiltrators of their cults or just there cults full stop

If the NL's really are just doing it for the lulz, why would their rate of compliance be significatnyl higher than a legion like the WE?

Is it ? You have the figures for this ?

As mentioned, that's a single world that they never pacifed in the first place. A single instance of a planet reverting to type doesn't invalidate that they had an incredibly high percentage of worlds they pacified choose to remain loyal to the Imperium. Granted, it doesn't look good that it's their homeworld, but again, if the discussion is being based around "the NL's had one of the lowest rebellion rates of worlds they pacified" that's not the same as "the NL's never had a world that they pacified or controlled rebel, ever". You seem to be taking the later point while arguing the former.

I've already put my point on the irrelevance of using the word 'pacified' to explain it away. They used their technique to exert control. It failed.
Ok I seriously don't want to go down the citation route again but you can't use statements like the one's bolded when we both know such figures don't exist

As to why the other legions aren't told to do it the Night Lord way, it's because they're different legions, duh. You don't try and make Shaq a shooting guard just because that's where Jordan played, same way you wouldn't make a submarine captain fly a plane or a 100m sprinter run a marathon. While sufficiently talented individuals could do it, they'd never do it as well as someone suited to it. It's not to say that the NL's didn't use diplomacy where it was the best option (they did), nor that Gulliman didn't have a cadre of Destroyers to wreck stuff up and conduct some scorched earth actions (he did). As before, don't fall into the common trap of warhammer and think that just because legion [x] has something as their hat, that it's all they can do.

Wow its almost like you're saying the NL technique doesn't always work and they're not the bestest Legion ever
Also diplomacy, really ? 'Cause nothing I've ever read about Curze indicated a talent for diplomacy. He can barely stand to be in the same room as his own brothers
In fact as turn about is fair play let me make a citation
'Prince of Crows' : Sevatar, First Captain " Answer me father. What politics of peace did you teach ? What scientific and social illumination did you bring to this society ? In your quest for a human utopia what other ways did you try beyond eating the flesh of stray dogs and skinning people alive "
The whole conversation is well worth reading

In fact, I'll posit a highly loaded scenario of my own for you:
- The fists can't simply orbital barrage the centre of resistance away, due to void shields, and so must make planetfall, and take casualties fighting room to room against almost equal opponents. They then must repeat this for every centre of resistance because the enemy is stubborn.
- The NL's play up their schtik and do their terror warfare thing, making an example of the first city and broadcasting it to everyone else and promising that unless everyone surrenders in the next 5 minutes, they'll do the same to every city. The planet surrenders and the NL's take 1 assaults worth of casualties instead of mutliple and the populace is cowed out of any thought of rebellion.

And the Fists don't show footage of the smoking hole that used to be the Capitol, why ? Only difference is they don't waste time doing it slowly or take extra casualties because they want people alive to play with

As to the second, you'd assume not, since putting down a rebellion is not the same as bringing a world into compliance. That only makes the NL's record even more noteworthy, if they can be up in the top couple of legions for number of compliant worlds while ALSO picking up after the other, less successful legions.

You can assume it, don't make it true. I can assume they did get credit for them bolstering their 'score' with cheap victories at the expense of other Legions. That's the fundamental problem, making assumptions and then declaring them as facts

P.S.

The Imperium isn't the good guys and never claims to be. They're the least worst option for humanity out of the very few options that work in a galaxy with giant fungus men, immortal dynastic death robots, space elves who feed off pain and suffering and using the home of literal gods for your transportation network which also happens to basically be hell.

Y'know I was going to suggest the Interex, which had had more advanced technology than the Imperium. Granted they were small but I toyed with the idea that seeing the orks/ tyrannids coming they might expand absorb enough human worlds ( and alien ones as they don't suffer from the Imperium's xenophobia) they might be able to stand against these threats but on re consideration I don't think they could expand fast enough
Never mind

[Wraith]

Sorry, misquoted you instead of the guy who claimed El'Jonson was a good guy.

Hi.

Truly, an outstanding guy, lets hope they dont 'grimdark' him (cause its a verb now).

I never said he was perfect. You can be a good guy and still make some pretty heinous mistakes. Corax has a bigger bodycount of his own guys than El'Johnson after all, and Sanguinius - the noblest of them all - has his moments too.

I mean socially awkward in the sense that he just doesn't get people. For example, he doesn't understand why not being acknowledged for his accomplishments would upset Pertrubo. Hypothetically speaking.

I feel his darkness comes more from the paranoia side of things. When you don't trust people, you might end up doing some pretty questionable stuff as a result.

That's a perfectly valid interpretation of the Lion. He grew up alone in a forest, was adopted by medieval Knights and then suddenly finds himself in space at the head of an inhuman army. No one could blame him for being overwhelmed and trying to hide that fact from others.

At the same time, my preferred interpretation of him is that he does understand all that stuff.... but he just doesn't care.

I kind of got that from his interactions with Guilliman in Imperium Secundus. The impression I get of Guilliman is that he cares a lot about what other people think of him - he's always giving out advice whether its asked for or not and trying to be "helpful" by pointing out just how good his Legion is when using his tactics, to prove his point. And he likes that his advice stays in peoples' heads, even if they use it to try to argue with him; some of their brothers who get given advice agree with Guilliman and he can point to them and go, "look what I helped do". He likes it when they argue with him, try to prove him wrong and fail so that he can say "I told you so", and to some extent he likes those who try to prove him wrong and succeed so that THEY can say it to him. He LIKES being thought of, in some way, so that he can point out their achievements and how they relate to him.

Guilliman, however, hates the Lion because the Lion just doesn't care. El'Johnson ignores Guilliman whenever he can because he doesn't want or need advice. When Guilliman tries to give it to him, El'Johnson doesn't accept it or argue with it, he just disregards it. When El'Johnson does something and succeeds, he does it in a way that Guilliman didn't advise, and then - worst of all - El'Johnson doesn't even bother to try and rub it in Guilliman's face by boasting "I did it my way and I didn't need you". Because El'Johnson doesn't think of Guilliman at all.

And that's how El'Johnson operates. He's very self-sufficient, and content to do his job without having someone looking over his shoulder, or pestering someone else for advice and reassurance. Many people interpret that as secrecy or paranoia - I wonder if it could just be stoicism and a preference for doing things his own way.

Or maybe I'm just romanticising a douchbag, who happens to throw shade at Guilliman. Everyone likes it when that happens.

[LansXero]

[QUOTE=comicshorse;23824180]

And people believe the propaganda provided by their enemies why ? Or let hordes of potential infiltrators on planet and just don'tr shoot them down ?

Planets are pretty big places. And if they could outshoot an expedition fleet they wouldnt be under siege in the first place. Its usually just a couple of strong points that resist in every planet, the rest of the surface is free to bomb / invade because it likely doesnt matter.

That's before we even get to the fact you're even more depopulating the planet, wasting time gathering them up, wasting space and resources shipping them to have your ships ships their on blown out of the air

Thats Imperial standard, not just for the Night Lords: a population that consorts with xenos, that is tainted by mutation, that consorts with abominable intelligences, etc. will be subjected to re-education, servitor'd, or sent off-world to die crushed by the wheels of imperial machinery. The planet will get terraformed and re-settled anyways.

You are mixing re-conquered planets in 40k with compliances during the Great Crusade. There is very little the Imperium wants to salvage from their forlorn brothers out there in space; if the Emperor decrees it their world will get drained of resources, turned into a giant factory or their population will be herded into hives. Take Caliban for example: the forests and castles where the Lion grew are gone once the Imperium arrives. Because that idyllic nonsense didnt fit the Imperial standard, so it had to be all torn down and remade. And thats a planet that gave itself willingly and the home world of a Legion. Imagine how much the Imperium cares about 'depopulating' a world like the one the Nephilim held in Fear to Tread.

But if we're presuming magical flow of information how about that the NL's have been known to take surrenders and then murder everyone anyway. That's gonna do wonders for people's motivation to just give up. Which is of course the flipside of terror tactics. If people don't give up you've just convinced them to fight to the last man and bullet. To make suicidal attacks and blow themselves up to take you with them. You've just shot yourself in the foot

For like 20 books, the notion of 'transhuman dread' is hammered into 30k readers, over and over again, for us to understand that 'fight to the last man' doesnt happen against Astartes. Over and over we are told soldiers just stand there and get torn apart because the sheer impact of Legion warfare so far outclasses what they've seen before that they cant process it, falling to shock.

Add to that the NL's own twist and its even more of an stretch to believe populations will rally to defend their world. Maybe isolated pockets will, which is why its so important that everybody else rattles them out: fighting guerrilla wars is draining and toxic.

So this is after the invasion by the Word Bearers ? Where the rebels are most likely to be infiltrators of their cults or just there cults full stop

They are second-class Macraggians, the faction who killed Konor and thus lost when Guilliman took power. They are secluded in their own little resentful ghettos full of crime and rebellion, right there in the hearth of the 500 worlds.

Fun fact: Guilliman is the reason why we have Tyranids in the milky way :V

I've already put my point on the irrelevance of using the word 'pacified' to explain it away. They used their technique to exert control. It failed.

But they very specifically didnt. Curze did. That one man crusade is much different from the whole Legion descending en-masse. Also, you are mixing 200 years of Nostramo all together; but others have made this point better.

Wow its almost like you're saying the NL technique doesn't always work and they're not the bestest Legion ever. Also diplomacy, really ? 'Cause nothing I've ever read about Curze indicated a talent for diplomacy. He can barely stand to be in the same room as his own brothers.
In fact as turn about is fair play let me make a citation
'Prince of Crows' : Sevatar, First Captain " Answer me father. What politics of peace did you teach ? What scientific and social illumination did you bring to this society ? In your quest for a human utopia what other ways did you try beyond eating the flesh of stray dogs and skinning people alive "
The whole conversation is well worth reading

Threats are diplomacy. Issuing a demand for surrender or else is diplomacy. Diplomacy isnt niceness.

And the Fists don't show footage of the smoking hole that used to be the Capitol, why ? Only difference is they don't waste time doing it slowly or take extra casualties because they want people alive to play with

Its not the same kind of visceral imagery. Its one thing to die in a blast in seconds, another to die over two weeks as your organs are pulled out of your body and strewn around in front of your flayed relatives who have not been allowed to die yet either. It resonates differently.

Not to mention, all of this is wrongly assuming imperial-like populations during compliances. Which I dont think was the norm, so you have to take into account the NL also faced xenos, both sentient and bestial, so their terror tactics were just a part of their toolbox, and most likely used during uprisings so they wouldnt be slowed down.

Finally, that was also part of Kurze's hate for his Legion: that they devolved into sadists and murderers for the sake of it and started prolonging things for their enjoyment instead of because it was necessary. Was this always the case or was there a true legion at some point? the books are purposefully obscure, having both versions be treated as the biased opinion of the narrator.

Y'know I was going to suggest the Interex, which had had more advanced technology than the Imperium. Granted they were small but I toyed with the idea that seeing the orks/ tyrannids coming they might expand absorb enough human worlds ( and alien ones as they don't suffer from the Imperium's xenophobia) they might be able to stand against these threats but on re consideration I don't think they could expand fast enough

The Interex couldnt even stand against the Luna Wolves, what hope do they have against a Hive Fleet? Now, of course, Horus and his Legion are no slouches, but they are one expeditionary fleet, not even the full force of the Legion and surely not the full might of the Imperium. So thats pretty much a pipe dream.

[Drasius]

Er...if that's the impression I wanted to convey, why would I explicitly write that that WASN'T what I meant ? Isn't it more likely other people simply got the wrong impression which was why I wrote to clarify

Because you've clearly made up your mind that Night Lords = bad so you're trying to backtrack on statements that you made that were inaccurate?

Well enough for books I read three years ago or so. Both the quotes were from the same two page section (out of roughly a 1,000 pages). Which was one of the less interesting parts (IMHO) as none of the characters are speaking, it's just narration of dubious provenance

This is a thing that is stressed at multiple points in multiple books, it's not a single isolated throwaway mention. In fact, the Night Lords have this whole terror tactics thing so ingrained in their legion identity that you seem to have remembered this as their only trait, but then oddly forget that it's how they worked in 30k too? It's odd.

And people believe the propaganda provided by their enemies why ? Or let hordes of potential infiltrators on planet and just don'tr shoot them down ? That's before we even get to the fact you're even more depopulating the planet, wasting time gathering them up, wasting space and resources shipping them to have your ships ships their on blown out of the air
But if we're presuming magical flow of information how about that the NL's have been known to take surrenders and then murder everyone anyway. That's gonna do wonders for people's motivation to just give up. Which is of course the flipside of terror tactics. If people don't give up you've just convinced them to fight to the last man and bullet. To make suicidal attacks and blow themselves up to take you with them. You've just shot yourself in the foot

They don't, but you show them enough and the fear will start to set in, and if it's anything like the worst the Night Lords can manage, it'll be enough, especially when backed up with actual footage.

You're not wasting any effort on refugee scum fleeing from your benighted rule, you're letting them find their own way offworld via their own means to go tell everyone else how utterly ****ed they are if they resist the Night Lords. Hell, if you wanted to actually waste resources on it, you'd send the Alpha legion along with the NL's to plant subversives in the refugees to be more effective at spreading the message.

It's not that NL's "take surrenders and then murder everyone anyway", that would be counter productive, it's that if the Night Lords say "surrender in the next hour or we'll flay every 3rd person on the planet in alphabetical order" and then said planet doesn't surrender until 5 hours in after it's started, so they continue through with their threat, because people didn't do as told. There is no quarter given, and none asked for - do as instructed, follow the rules or pay the penalty. Will it make some places fight to the last? You could argue that, but then, that's why you have negotiation, then ultimatums rather than going directly to invasion.

So this is after the invasion by the Word Bearers ? Where the rebels are most likely to be infiltrators of their cults or just there cults full stop

No, this is stated as rebels from when Gulliman took power, who have been causing problems for the loyal citizens ever since. They get walled off and everyone in their area can basically go suck it, regardless of if they're with the rebels or not.

Is it ? You have the figures for this ?

Do you? You're making the claim that the Night Lords are bad at achieving compliance and demanding evidence from everyone, but where is your evidence for this not being the case? We've already seen quotes saying that entire systems got their act together when they heard the Night Lords were on their way, they literally don't even have to be near the planet in question to force them to decide that being a part of the Imperium is a better option. If you can't understand that this is about as efficient as it gets, then we will never come to an understanding.

I've already put my point on the irrelevance of using the word 'pacified' to explain it away. They used their technique to exert control. It failed.
Ok I seriously don't want to go down the citation route again but you can't use statements like the one's bolded when we both know such figures don't exist

No, Curze used the threat of punishment to keep them in line, and when said threat was removed, they revert to being turds. That shows that there's bad administration because the level of threat maintained wasn't strong enough.

Wow its almost like you're saying the NL technique doesn't always work and they're not the bestest Legion ever
Also diplomacy, really ? 'Cause nothing I've ever read about Curze indicated a talent for diplomacy. He can barely stand to be in the same room as his own brothers
In fact as turn about is fair play let me make a citation
'Prince of Crows' : Sevatar, First Captain " Answer me father. What politics of peace did you teach ? What scientific and social illumination did you bring to this society ? In your quest for a human utopia what other ways did you try beyond eating the flesh of stray dogs and skinning people alive "
The whole conversation is well worth reading

It's exactly what I'm saying, they're not the best legion and no, their terror tactics won't work every time. The point is that, of all the legions during the crusade, the Night Lords were among the top legions in efficient conquest of worlds. That means nothing more beyond that they were efficient at achieving conquest of worlds. Did the Ultras, Thousand Sons, Word Bearers and Alpha Legion also have a bunch of victories without shots being fired? Of course!, but they used their own methods and that still takes nothing away from the Night Lords achieve the same end though different means.

Curze is a single being, and unlike Magnus, he can't be in more than once palce at a time. Curze /= the entire legion, during the great crusade (ie, the time period we're talking about), the legions were split into varying battlegroups (there were something like 4000 battle groups with marines in the IIRC and near on 60000 without). Even then, you probably wouldn't have Curze do the talking on first contact anyway, there are specifically diplomats in each fleet to do that sort of thing.

Diplomacy is the first part, you jump into a system and say, "hey, any humans there, if so, want to join us? We've got cake and this guy called The Emperor, he's pretty neat", then they either reply that they have heard rumours of cake, and would love to join or that they have their own cake (and in one case, Emperor too), and that you can shove off. If the first, Yay! compliance, job done, move on to the next. If the second, we move to bargaining and or threats, at which point you mention that you do happen to have a rather large group of ships with plant killing weapons sitting around with nothing to do. If they don't take the hint, then you politely show them a vid of the last time the Night Lords and friends had to crash a party due to not being invited, and then if they still insist that you stay off their lawn, you shrug, tell them that you did warn them, and then let the Night Lords do their thing.

Again, the Night Lords (and legionaries in general) are the stick, not the carrot. Yes, Curze is not Peturabo, the builder, or Magnus, the teacher, nor Lorgar, the philosopher, he's there to kill people and break their things, the same way Russ or Angron were, the same way Maggie, Perty or Lorgar were when their other skills weren't required and they put their war face on. Same goes for their legions, sure, the BAngels get all creative and whatnot in their downtime, the Ultras are taught how to lead and administer, but they're still legionaries first, they're tools made explicitly for war, it's just that some legions have other uses too, while some are meant to be combat focused. Yes, Prince of Crows is good, yes, Sevatar is awesome, but that doesn't change anything - Curze was prescient, when he states in the very same conversation "It. Was. The. Only. Way.", it's out of frustration that this is how it has to be, because he's seen it, he knows that this is how things go.

And the Fists don't show footage of the smoking hole that used to be the Capitol, why ? Only difference is they don't waste time doing it slowly or take extra casualties because they want people alive to play with

Because nobody cares about buildings that can be rebuilt, destroying a building is a regular, mundane thing. Having your children excoriated in front of you over the course of weeks using your own hands through mechanical compulsion after your eyelids have been removed and your pain centres stimulated without respite is very, very different.

You can assume it, don't make it true. I can assume they did get credit for them bolstering their 'score' with cheap victories at the expense of other Legions. That's the fundamental problem, making assumptions and then declaring them as facts

You can assume anything you like, but it's pretty plain that you're not going to be swayed, regardless of anything said to you. You've decided that Night Lords are bad and the Ultras are good and that there's no inbetween. For some reason, in a setting that is only just clinging to grey vs black morality, you appear firmly lodged in a white vs black mindset.

Y'know I was going to suggest the Interex, which had had more advanced technology than the Imperium. Granted they were small but I toyed with the idea that seeing the orks/ tyrannids coming they might expand absorb enough human worlds ( and alien ones as they don't suffer from the Imperium's xenophobia) they might be able to stand against these threats but on re consideration I don't think they could expand fast enough
Never mind

The Interex weren't powerful enough to fend of a single expeditionary fleet, if they were not strong enough to defend against ~ 1/60,000 th of the Imperium's might, they were not the way to save humankind from the various other terros of the Galaxy. The interex are a lesson in good/nice/enlightened not working in the warhammer setting.