Erfworld 77, page 71

[SteveMB]

Do we know for certain that the dwagons Parson used in this battle are ALL the dwagons GK has?

Or maybe these are just the ones he used? The ones with enough move for this battle?

Seems like the gwiffons have a wide range in moves, maybe the dwagons do too?

My guess is that he used the dwagons that had been deployed for the original aborted ambush plan (presumably they were near where Wanda dropped off Jillian for Webinar's group to find, and thus somewhere between GK and the column).

[BRC]

I just realized somthing, Parson is in a unique position when it comes to protagonists, he has to battle AGAINST plot sheilds and Deus-ex-machina, I think this is the first instance of an antagonist (I consider team ansom antagonists because they work against parson who is the protagonist. Good guy/bad guy is irrelevant when it comes to tagonism) that I have run into getting saved by DeM.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

With Manpower and Leroy perma-croaked, who else can be promoted to Warlord status?

Many people think Parson is going to end up on a dwagon, but what about Wanda (better at hand-to-hand than Parson, I'm sure), Sizemore (he's sort of a spell slinger, and he comes with his own troops), or one of the gobwin commanders we haven't seen in action yet...

Just thinking out loud...

[Eten]

With Manpower and Leroy perma-croaked, who else can be promoted to Warlord status?

Many people think Parson is going to end up on a dwagon, but what about Wanda (better at hand-to-hand than Parson, I'm sure), Sizemore (he's sort of a spell slinger, and he comes with his own troops), or one of the gobwin commanders we haven't seen in action yet...

Just thinking out loud...

I simply don't know if Wanda or Sizemore are considered Warlords, and to what extent casters have on unit control(which are their official titles). I so far has seen three major distinct entities:
-Warlords
-Casters
-Units

Lastly, there is Stanley, who is considered an "Overlord" or simply addressed as "Lord", and I'd imagine he is simply a souped up version of a Warlord and is equal to a sort of king like title, and all finances, ultimate unit control, etc. is under his power. I've imagined that "Prince" Ansom leaves a King back in the Jetstone clan, etc. who would be similar to Stanley.

So I'm only seeing Parson or Stanley as acting as Warlords.

[R.I.P. Manpower]

With respect to Parson not noticing Ansom's arrival in the hex; it's entirely possible that he's had the lake hex blown up to encompass the whole of the table / viewing portal thingy so that he could better see & micromanage the battle over the lake...we already know that he's pretty far zoomed in panel 1...so it's not too far a stretch of the imagination that he blew it up even further!

...also, how are we to know whether or not that Parson's mathamancy device had already accounted for Ansom's arrival in the hex when it gave the 61% odds...bring on the morning and a new Stupid Meal toy!

[Girl Wonder]

I simply don't know if Wanda or Sizemore are considered Warlords, and to what extent casters have on unit control(which are their official titles). I so far has seen three major distinct entities:
-Warlords
-Casters
-Units

Lastly, there is Stanley, who is considered an "Overlord" or simply addressed as "Lord", and I'd imagine he is simply a souped up version of a Warlord and is equal to a sort of king like title, and all finances, ultimate unit control, etc. is under his power. I've imagined that "Prince" Ansom leaves a King back in the Jetstone clan, etc. who would be similar to Stanley.

So I'm only seeing Parson or Stanley as acting as Warlords.

Stanley is an Overlord, and his equivalent for Jetstone is the (as yet unseen) King Slately. Ansom is King Slately's Chief Warlord, which means his opposite number for Gobwin Knob is Parson. Ansom merely leads from the field, where Parson does not (Ansom has no trimancer board, after all, and, even if he did, given what Jillian has said about his desire to 'lead from the front', he probably would still be in the field rather than safe at home in Jetstone).

As for new Warlords, Stanley clearly has the ability to create new ones by promoting them from the ranks, though if he is limited by some sort of Shmuckers cost or time limit is not known. Given Wanda's comments, it DOES seem he is limited in the types of troops he can promote to Warlord, but so far the only limitation hinted at is that they must be 'living'. Still, he has a pool of 200 from which to choose. Of course, whether they'd be any good is another question entirely. Arguably, because of the Trimancer board, how big their bonus is is secondary to them just being there, thus giving Parson a lot more control over matters and who attacks when than if he were back at Gobwin Knob without warlords in the field.

[teratorn]

Does this seem correct in terms of Erfworld game-rules combat? Based on what little evidence we have. The fact that Parson even says "Hurry" is itself outside of the standard convention of an RTS.

I gave my account three or four posts above yours. I view it as a purely stack versus stack confrontation where all the all other units are put to the equivalent to zero move until those two stacks sort it out and there's a winner. Then the two sides gather a new/keep the same stack each and fight it off again. Ansom doesn't join middle battle, he entered the hex after Jillian won the first fight and merged stack with her as she was going to engage Manpower and Phat Singh. Parson took a few seconds to notice it (expanded for dramatic purpose) because for some reason he didn't know Ansom knew where the dwagons were (Jillian has no hat).

Inside the battling stacks there is a concept of time and action and the hurry makes sense (or there would be no story).

[Eten]

With respect to Parson not noticing Ansom's arrival in the hex; it's entirely possible that he's had the lake hex blown up to encompass the whole of the table / viewing portal thingy so that he could better see & micromanage the battle over the lake...we already know that he's pretty far zoomed in panel 1...so it's not too far a stretch of the imagination that he blew it up even further!

...also, how are we to know whether or not that Parson's mathamancy device had already accounted for Ansom's arrival in the hex when it gave the 61% odds...bring on the morning and a new Stupid Meal toy!

As far as I can tell, Parson did notice Ansom's arrival, but only a frame before we see him ourselves. I can easily see it as nothing more than the lake hex blown up. As for HOW Ansom traveled while the battle was going on, if could be something as simple as "tactical" combat is still measured in it's own turns(turn-based RPG), and in each of these individual turns other units outside of that tactical combat can keep moving(at a pace measured by the tactical combat turns).

[sihnfahl]

As far as I can tell, Parson did notice Ansom's arrival, but only a frame before we see him ourselves. I can easily see it as nothing more than the lake hex blown up. As for HOW Ansom traveled while the battle was going on, if could be something as simple as "tactical" combat is still measured in it's own turns(turn-based RPG), and in each of these individual turns other units outside of that tactical combat can keep moving(at a pace measured by the tactical combat turns).

Actually, Ansom moved at the Speed of Plot.

He arrived just in time to keep Jillian from getting skewered by Manpower. Manpower's sword was just one arm movement from gutting Jillian open like a landed fish.

No sooner. No later.

Edit: Which... doesn't translate well into game mechanics.

[Bongos]

I so wanted Manpower to get some! He looked so mean with that grimace and sword, I made it my avatar...

You know, Erfworld isn't a game, it is a world that resembles a game, some things are real life and some things are like a game...its a crazy mix. Like a "what if life was more like a game" kind of scenario.

I mean when was the last time stacks fell in love and had conversations in a game?

and what kind of game would it be? Air hostesses fighting dwagons? Evel Kneivel riding a magic carpet? The ORLY owl? Pretty mixed up genre of a game.

[SteveMB]

I so wanted Manpower to get some! He looked so mean with that grimace and sword, I made it my avatar...

Yes; does no one consider his feelings?

[R.I.P. Manpower]

I made it my avatar...

...I went for the Mnpwr on the dragon....the sword looks booping awesome...just the images with him wielding it would not make such a good avatar!

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Yes; does no one consider his feelings?

NICE!!! I need to get that one and the Jillian one, and put them on my refridgerator.

[benthehater]

If we were to apply the pun for Lady Phat-Singh, it could be a solid clue that until the last uncroaked warlord is dead, it really isn't over.

As much as the Dwagons are a significant loss, isn't this the scenario that Parson wanted anyway originally?

Ansom rides to the rescue of Jillian away from the column? Is that still viable? Is Ansom exposed and vulnerable to croaking?

[JazzManJim]

Actually, Ansom moved at the Speed of Plot.

He arrived just in time to keep Jillian from getting skewered by Manpower. Manpower's sword was just one arm movement from gutting Jillian open like a landed fish.

No sooner. No later.

Edit: Which... doesn't translate well into game mechanics.

Which means it trashes the story, since game mechanics are an integral part of the story. You can either have coherent game mechanics or "speed of plot". Not both. They're not compatible.

All of the suddent introducing real-time combat into what we've been told over and over again is a turn-based system is just bizarre and supremely unsatisfying.

[fendrin]

Lets see here, so much to say...

some people are giving up too early, sating that this is going to end in a Deus Ex Machina. (I suppose a titan-ex-machina would be more appropriate)

Don't mistake your own failure of imagination for there being no recourses. i can think of several, some of which are more likely than others:

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1. Jillian croaks Ansom now that he's vulnerable. (i.e. the thinkagram was a ploy)
2. GK has some dwagons in reserve, they carry one or more of the remaining warlords to the B-dwagons and go croak some more seige.
3. GK has some dwagons in reserve, they carry one or more of the remaining warlords to the B-dwagons and go croak one or more of Jillian, Ansom, and Vinny.

For that matter, one or both of Toast or Ferdinand could already be with the B dwagons.

I vote for number 3, remember, destroying the seige was just an opener Ansom was the real target, and he just made himself MORE vulnerable

Ok, there are three equally viable (and not entirely mutually exclusive) ways this can turn around for GK without it being a TeM. I'm sure I could come up with others if i tried (those weren't original ideas anyway)

as for how Ansom got the drop on Parson....

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Maybe he was veiled? He would need a lookamancer in his stack... my vote is Vinny. Who says a caster can't be promoted to a warlord? Maybe you canmulticlass? (ok, multicalssing might be considered an improbable rule change). Warlord might work like a prestige class, though.

Things look grim for Parson and Co., but remember, this is an TBS, not an RTS. playing a TBS against a worthy opponent almost always leaves you feeling like your boops are in a vice a the end of your opponents turn. then you take your turn and put the vice on the other boops. Ansom may have many flaws, but he's not stupid, and he has a decent head for strategy.

[JazzManJim]

You are confused. As I mentioned already, this is NOT an RTS. This is a TBS. Pieces have a movement allotment that takes them wherever they wish to be, not because they take less REAL TIME to move from point A to point B, but because they have a given number of move points. Units don't have to start out at daybreak to utilize their movement allotment. They can move 3 hexes in the blink of an eye or over 4 hours. Stop thinking in terms of realtime Earth. I'ts not an "improbable rule", it's the way movement works in any TBS. The only wrinkle here is that it's clear that units in disparate starting hexes (or at least, stacks with leaders) can reinforce each other during combat, though I wager that they only receive leader bonuses from any leaders they are with as they enter the hex.

This comic explicitly makes it at least partly an RTS. If it's not, then Parson can't have dwagons attack. It's not their turn. Ansom could get there, sure, but Manpower wouldn't have an attack until it's his turn again.

So, yeah, at least part of this game is an RTS - at least when it comes to combat in a hex. My problem is that we've had no indication whatsoever that this is the case. It's a new rule that just got dropped on us once again.

[benthehater]

Which means it trashes the story, since game mechanics are an integral part of the story. You can either have coherent game mechanics or "speed of plot". Not both. They're not compatible.

All of the suddent introducing real-time combat into what we've been told over and over again is a turn-based system is just bizarre and supremely unsatisfying.

Well, Rob's identified himself as a writer here. Which led to an admission that he's making his story first and foremost, and then building only what he needs of the gameworld to support the story. (Gencon 2007, Erfworld: The Seminaw; Baldur, Rob) Though he's going to make it as internally consistent as possible, obviously when he's in a situation that requires allegiance to the game or to the story, he's going to chose the story.

Cope. (GitP Forums, Erfworld: Erfworld 77, Page 71; benthehater)

[Zelig the Liar]

Keep in mind that we're all in the position that Parson is in. We're gamers (most of us) encountering a world that appears to conform to gaming rules. Of course he, and we, are going to approach it with certain preconceptions of the genre and boop up quite a bit on our predictions. We might come up with some clever tricks yet unseen by our opponent, but in as high-stakes a situation as this, I doubt we'll see the grace of any 'beginner's luck'. So the slightest wrong assumption (Jillian will not attack, units can't reinforce while combat is engaged) will really boop up even the most brilliant plans.

Remember, Parson's was a PERFECT plan if not for the Jillian factor. He reeled Ansom in like a master angler, and was patting himself on the back before the turn was over. Who's done that? I know I have.

I said it before. I have a really, really bad feeling about that smile. The turn's still not over, and even if all the dwagons in that hex are croaked, there's going to be at least another 3 turns before Ansom is at GK. Good grief people, have a little patience. (was tempted to misspell that as 'patients' for you spellcheckers out there, but meh)

[rant]

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I really do think we're about to see another twist. Yes, as frustrating as the current situation is already, I absolutely can't wait for all the complainers to start moaning about it if Parson actually wins this. That's the problem. The complainers will never be satisfied. Ever. They are complainers because they complain. It is their entire being and nature. The best thing is to ignore them or respond to them as gamers have for ages.

'Can I have your stuff?'

[/rant]

[Jade_Tarem]

One question: Why so many assumptions?

The big one is: "I know how the game works."

It's silly. There are no rules listed for the same reason that none of the PC's in Order of the Stick have character sheets - so that story/jokes can be made without the authors stumbling over something they posted months or even years ago.

As to the introduction of real-time combat into a TBS game... it's been done before (lots of places). So has "reinforcements in the middle of the fight" (Sword of the Stars, if nothing else. Remember the time lapses between comics. It could be that units outside of combats get to move between rounds in-combat. I don't assume that this is the case, but it is a possibility). Saying that the two "can't" be combined here because you were rooting for team Parson is stretching it a bit.

The next assumption is: "I know how the plot is going to turn out."

That's just ridiculous. Nonetheless, people come on, make a bunch of predictions (Ok, now Parson is going to kick butt. Ok, now Parson is going to kick butt. Surley now Parson is going to...). Then they post to complain that:

A) The comic is too predictable.
B) Their prediction didn't come true.

Sometimes in the same post! They reinforce it by going back to number 1 - saying that this or that "can't" happen, that the authors somehow made a mistake in a realm in which they are all powerful (their own story).

The real complaint is that, for whatever reason, the story isn't going the way they want it to. While this may be true, it is solved by simply not reading the comic. Free entertainment is not subject to quality control.

Rant over, that is all.

[ag30476]

The next assumption is: "I know how the plot is going to turn out."

That's just ridiculous. Nonetheless, people come on, make a bunch of predictions (Ok, now Parson is going to kick butt. Ok, now Parson is going to kick butt. Surley now Parson is going to...). Then they post to complain that:

A) The comic is too predictable.
B) Their prediction didn't come true.

Sometimes in the same post!

Making predictions or having expectations about a story and getting surprised when they don't come true is an integral part of reading or watching a story.

(OK there's also that mode where you're like watching Star Wars for the the 17th time and you're not going to really be surprised.)

The trick is to like the process.

The other strange thing with a web comic or any regularly serialized story is that in some sense I think the reading/watching can become a community event, for ex a forum on a web comic or a weekly party to watch a TV drama. Part of this shared experience is talking to others about the story...or ranting, depends on the person.

Yes you can discuss a standalone book, play or movie AFTER you've seen it but it's not the same thing. The perception of the serial story is mediated by the communal dialogue as the story enfolds.

Was I pseudo-intellectual enough?

[ErikZ]

Heavily damaged dragons are easily killed, but they should still attack at full strength. They probably have one good shot left in them.

If Ansom dies, what happens to the Angel Mercenaries? Would the contract be over?

That would leave Vinnie, Jillian and her peeps.

And I'm pretty sure if Ansom dies, Jillian will be in no condition to fight. Which would leave just Vinnie.

[Fineous Orlon]

I just realized somthing, Parson is in a unique position when it comes to protagonists, he has to battle AGAINST plot sheilds and Deus-ex-machina, I think this is the first instance of an antagonist (I consider team ansom antagonists because they work against parson who is the protagonist. Good guy/bad guy is irrelevant when it comes to tagonism) that I have run into getting saved by DeM.

Interesting point of view. Parson has to fight plot armor.

He's also been given plot armor, maybe, will that be important?

Anyway, all I can come up with is rereading the entire run and spitting out this: the big promise is that the little details are what matters, right from the beginning, with the lost rhinestone, carried through the entire strip, including 'exploitable mechanics' ...,

Like, did Jillian actually break the spell?
Did the calculator watch calculate the odds with all available forces for Ansom [i.e., including Ansom and Vinnie possibly riding in]?

For want of a nail...

Which nail?

For all we know, pigeons could make the difference. Maybe they can be used as a unit, or promoted to unit status, and Stanley gets them for free, every fourth or fifth time he busts a nut.

************************************************** *

I am working on how to view Parson's scenario in regards to the current sitch.

Parson was gaming a 'desperate, final struggle for survival between all that is noble and decent, and all that is vile and unholy...'

Ansom's side is not desperate, nor worried about its survival, particularly, right now. Will it be soon?

[Movoza]

But, I just can't visualize where this comic is going if Parson's side loses (which seems likely).

Plot more likely
It didnt seem like they were losing, though they should be at losing hand. Parson has it more difficult now. The stakes are up, and the game is on...

man, i did think there would be a little more humor though, even though there are some mean funny in it.

Movoza

[Zeku]

So new = good?

Don't be that guy. Seriously. It doesn't end well.

Yes, new is good. Old is also good. Please say something specific if you're going to be snide.

The disappointment comes from the fact that for the bulk of the comic, we've been set up to expect it to follow the story of Stanley and Parson. When you're following the story of a certain group, it's natural to expect not only for the action to centre on that group, but also for that group to experience certain ups and downs - set up specifically so you can follow those ups and downs with them and feel their journey with them.

We've?

But thus far Stanley and Parson have had mostly downs, with only one tiny up. And now the story's suddenly switched to make us think we're supposed to be following the story of Ansom and Jillian.

It has? Who said the story was about Parson? Your behavior is something I'm, unfortunately, quite familiar with. They are critics who first make assumptions about a text, and then criticize it for not conforming to those expectations.

There is a reason there are certain expectations in stories - it's because the expectations work, and have been proven over millennia

And you were there? Noone could ever improve on things right? So I guess you're not in the 'evolution' camp, but in the 'everything was perfect the instant it was created' camp?

you jar the senses of your audience, and will more often than not lose their interest, because you've disconnected yourself from their communal experience. Your story no longer resonates with them, and gets lost in the chaos - and that means the death of your story.

Say what? A story might not be written for your particular palate. That doesn't make the story a mistake.

One central theme in virtually every successful story ever told is overcoming adversity. But Ansom has failed to do this, because he's never faced adversity. Even when it seemed he might face adversity - trapped in a forest with a potential traitor as his only hope for escape - instead of overcoming it, we find out there was never adversity at all. The traitor was true, the trap was shattered, and no challenge ever came. We cannot be excited about Ansom's victory because we've been led from the beginning to expect his victory. Does anyone cheer when the 20-point favourite leaps into the lead, or do they cheer when the underdog unexpectedly pulls to the fore?

I think we all know the answer to that one.

We've witnessed the equivalent of maybe one chapter worth of dialogue. It might be just a little bit early to talk about the full scope of character development.

[SteveMB]

This comic explicitly makes it at least partly an RTS. If it's not, then Parson can't have dwagons attack. It's not their turn. Ansom could get there, sure, but Manpower wouldn't have an attack until it's his turn again.

So, yeah, at least part of this game is an RTS - at least when it comes to combat in a hex. My problem is that we've had no indication whatsoever that this is the case. It's a new rule that just got dropped on us once again.

This comic explicitly makes it at least partly an RTS. If it's not, then Jillian can't have the orlies screen off the other dwagons while she soloes the blue. It's not their (or her) turn.

It's a "new" rule that got dropped on us during the very second combat we saw, and the first one with hitsies inflicted by both sides.

[Zelig the Liar]

This comic explicitly makes it at least partly an RTS. If it's not, then Jillian can't have the orlies screen off the other dwagons while she soloes the blue. It's not their (or her) turn.

It's a "new" rule that got dropped on us during the very second combat we saw, and the first one with hitsies inflicted by both sides.

I'm sure that what we saw there was just a warlord's direction of the combat, and not RTS in action. I'm going to copy what I posted in the "Game Rules: Movement" thread here because I think it's relevant:

I've played TBS games where a unit's move stat was also used in the battles. When battle had commenced, the space the battle was in was zoomed in and revealed to be composed of many smaller spaces, and the units had their amount of move to use per turn of battle. The battle would last either until one side won or either side withdrew. Perhaps something similar is at work here.

As for timing, I think there might be something to the 1 turn in combat = 1 move outside of combat theory. Ansom was 3 move away from Jillian when she sent the thinkagram. Then say we count the Archons' opening attack as 1 combat turn, and Jillian's 'Boom! Headshot!' stunt as the 2nd, that would have Ansom arriving right at the 3rd combat turn and getting to Jillian just in time to yoink Manpower.

[Murderous Hobo]

I think it's due to the way the new rules are used as a deus-ex machine to turn the story the other way every time the story threatens to swing the balance in favor of one of the sides.

It's like watching two children having an argument.

A: Give me your marbles.
B: What if I won't?
A: Then I'll hit you.
B: I'll hit you back.
A: I'll call my mommy.
B: Then I'll call my dad, he's way stronger.
A: Then I'll call my uncle, he's a unprofessional bodybuilder.
B: Then I'll call the president.
A: Then I'll call the King of the World.
B: Then I'll call the King of the Universe.
A: Then I'll call the Emperor of all the Universes
B: My uncle Einstein can prove there is only one Universe.

and so on.

[SteveMB]

I think it's due to the way the new rules are used as a deus-ex machine to turn the story the other way every time the story threatens to swing the balance in favor of one of the sides.

That's somewhat inherent to the situation. Which side is going to be more likely to try something unusual: the one that's currently winning or the one that's currently losing?

Edit: I can think of at least one kinda-sorta exception -- "veiling" was introduced to explain why Ansom charged into the ring despite the bat-scout report, thus getting his boops even deeper into the vise (admittedly, it didn't actually cause him to do so).

[Surfing HalfOrc]

A lot of folks seem to be having an issue with TBS/RTS in the same game.

I was going through some of my old TBS games, and the rules in several state that "combat is simultanious.(sp?)" Meaning that the attacked forces can and will fight back, etc... Some even allow retreat through unoccupued hexes if the player wants or the attack matrix shows an "attacker/defender retreats" result.

It's just that most TBS games the actual combat is simulated with a single or multiple dice rolls and it's over.

But in Erfworld, the since the combatants are "real," there are no dice, and fights are not over until one or both sides are completely destroyed, withdraw, or surrender. So in any individual hex, the battle is RTS.