Should I Stay or Should I Go

[Mr Beer]

If I felt like that I'd just stop going round there.

Are these people your only friends or something?

[Calthropstu]

Are they actually your friends?

Aside from gaming what do you guys do? Would they put you up for a few days if your wife kicked you out? Would they help you fix your xar or move furniture for a day without charging you? Would they help you hide a body? Would they act as your wing man at a club?

What outside of gaming do you do together?

[Mordaedil]

If it was an SO he'd been with for decade, they'd be living together and he'd be subject to this most of the time. There'd be little room for doubt about malice or manipulation. These are people he sees a couple times week that rip on each other often enough that cutting retorts are apparently expected. There's plenty of room for miscommunication here, particularly if these guys are generally socially inept; something their current living situation rather suggests.

Not that it particularly matters. Them being useless toads would make no difference to the social responsibility we -all- have to not be indecent to those -we- call friends. He owes it to himself as much as, perhaps more than, he owes it to them to either try to make it work, if he has any hope at all, or to give them a clear reason why he wants to dissociate, if he doesn't. That they're utterly failing at being decent to him isn't a good enough reason to fail at it himself.

I think you'll find he shouldn't need to make an effort to keep being friends with someone. If you have to put effort into maintaining friendships this way, it's really not worth it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think you'll find he shouldn't need to make an effort to keep being friends with someone. If you have to put effort into maintaining friendships this way, it's really not worth it.

Of course you have to put effort into any relationship that isn't so shallow as to be little more than an acquaintance. You can't rely on "friendship" that shallow to be anything more than a meaningless time-sink. I wouldn't call someone with whom that is the nature of our relationship a "friend."

[tensai_oni]

Kelb, you are both normalizing toxic behaviour and making it OP's fault that he didn't "try hard enough" to make it work.

Once again, what OP describes isn't normal, and if you think it is then you need to adjust what "normal" means for you. I had plenty of friendships with other guys and dickish behaviour like that was never involved. Sure, there was good natured ribbing involved - when we knew each other well enough to know that we're okay with it. These guys clearly don't wait for boundaries to be established before crossing right over them, since OP introduced a new person to them and they immediately started picking on him.

They're not just boys being boys, doing boy things. They're pricks and *******s.

[Spore]

Can't there be both types of "friend" groups without each faction trying to tell the others they are wrong?

There can be a conglomerate of dudebros who insult each other and their respective families. (Dudebro is not meant as an insult here. I enjoy dark humor and vile insulting every now and then)
There can be a group of sensible modern men who joke lightly but don't take it too far.

Both are valid options as long as everyone involved is comfortable. We cannot tell you one is right or wrong. We can just advise you to quit spending your free time in a circle you do not enjoy. You don't have to break up friendships for that. Just state you won't be joining their game for a while. And then play off of that.

[Mordaedil]

There isn't anything problematic with groups who throw out casual insults at eachother, the problem arises when someone is feeling uncomfortable with it, which is the case here and why it is problematic. There isn't any factions going on here.

[Incorrect]

My short input would be to just show them this thread. Show them your thoughts as you have written them down here.
It would be better if you feel like you could have the talk with them directly, but if you feel like that would be too much, then it might be easier to just share this.

I think its possible that these people see you as a friend but they are so far into their jokes and group-culture that they dont realize how its making you feel. If they are adult enough to relate to peoples feelings, I think there is a real chance that they will change.
If not, if they dont immediately react and respect your feedback, then they are not worth your time.

Its not until you remove a toxic element from your life that you realize how much it has been affecting you.

[tensai_oni]

Can't there be both types of "friend" groups without each faction trying to tell the others they are wrong?

Yeah? Nobody's saying either type of group you described is wrong. The problem with the group from OP's post isn't that they casually throw insults around, but that they do so towards people who are obviously not okay with it.

[Calthropstu]

Yeah? Nobody's saying either type of group you described is wrong. The problem with the group from OP's post isn't that they casually throw insults around, but that they do so towards people who are obviously not okay with it.

Except they don't KNOW they're not ok with it. People who act like this generally are social morons.

[Scripten]

Except they don't KNOW they're not ok with it. People who act like this generally are social morons.

What does that have to do with anything? Do they get a pass because they're inept at social interactions? This all sounds like the Geek Social Fallacies. I haven't tolerated people like this in my social circles since middle school, and nobody should feel obligated to do so.

And anyway, they drove away a neutral third-party person in a single session. That's impressive even for the major horror story groups.

[GunDragon]

They actually didn't drive the newcomer away in a single session. He was with us for a year or two before finally quitting.

And as for the other "friendship" elements other than the 1-2 per week game sessions, we don't really hang out or do stuff together. We used to do other stuff and that was great, but that was a long time ago.

If I asked them for help with anything that doesn't have to do with gaming, I don't think they would care or make up excuses not to help. I don't trust them enough to help me anyway. It's hard to trust someone who always makes fun of you and kicks you down.

The last time I really did anything with them other than tabletop was back a few months ago when I helped them move to their new apartment. Our friendship was already in the crapper at that point and I was hoping that helping them move would have mended things. I just wanted to have a sense of belonging with that group again. But sadly it was not to be. They did not seem all that happy or appreciative that I was helping them, even though I did help them a lot, taking 8 hours out of my day using a ton of fuel and physical energy.

I don't really know if they are social morons, emotionally immature, or whatever, because I feel like I don't really know them anymore. They have changed over the years, of course, everyone does, but not really for the better.

And I like what Pex said. It's true, friends do tend to outgrow each other after a while, and I think that might be what's happening here.
And not all of them are equally mean. There is one who I could talk to about this without making it worse.

[Koo Rehtorb]

You know the details of the relationship better than any of us. Also, this isn't an RPG problem. This is a people problem.

[Saintheart]

As said, this is a people problem, not a RPG problem. As a result, there's a fair amount of hyperbole, stereotyping or "filling in the blanks" going on in this thread which may or may not be applicable because we don't know the full story and likely never will.
That being said, two options:

(1) Do the de rigeur thing of "talking" to them about it. The purpose of this conversation being essentially you telling them not to treat you like crap. Rarely do these conversations turn out well even between two people, let alone three grown men who are still living together around the same age most people have started moving on with their lives in some way. You're basically expecting these three guys, who apparently have been kicking you for years, to have a sudden Road To Damascus moment and overnight realise they've been nasty and start treating you as other than the bottom person in the hierarchy. Which (a) requires several people to massively change, and (b) maintain that change over a period of time with someone they only talk to a week. If people can't do that for Jesus except in exceptional circumstances, there are small odds - based on what you're saying - that this is going to end well or that it's going to turn out achieving any lasting change.

(2) Cut them off and move on. Life's too short, and if you're getting towards the age of 30, it's getting shorter every day. Gaming groups and good shared experiences are not so rare that you have to cling onto one group in the hope that things will go back to how they were. Spoiler alert: they never do. That said, if -- as I have a horrible suspicion -- these are your only friends you see regularly socially, then I strongly suggest you obey the wingwalkers' code: don't let go of one support until you have hold of another one. Go find someone else to game with before quitting these guys.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Kelb, you are both normalizing toxic behaviour and making it OP's fault that he didn't "try hard enough" to make it work.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said any such thing.

I said that dealing with this problem forthrightly and honestly was the right thing to do rather than slink away and leave people who considered you a friend confused and hurt if they don't know what they've done wrong.

Once again, what OP describes isn't normal, and if you think it is then you need to adjust what "normal" means for you. I had plenty of friendships with other guys and dickish behaviour like that was never involved. Sure, there was good natured ribbing involved - when we knew each other well enough to know that we're okay with it. These guys clearly don't wait for boundaries to be established before crossing right over them, since OP introduced a new person to them and they immediately started picking on him.

Spare me.

Just because you and yours are delicate with each other doesn't make being rough around the edges "toxic." They're crossing the line and that's a problem but part of the problem might be that they don't know that because the OP has obfuscated that fact.

They're not just boys being boys, doing boy things. They're pricks and *******s.

One man's good natured ribbing is another's grievous insult. The only way to find somebody's boundaries is to test them. You're only a [expletive] if you're deliberatly ignoring boundaries that are well established, not for being ignorant of the boundaries the other guy is covering.

If you're having a problem like the OP and you keep it to yourself, either it's not that big a problem or you're being a coward.

Yeah? Nobody's saying either type of group you described is wrong. The problem with the group from OP's post isn't that they casually throw insults around, but that they do so towards people who are obviously not okay with it.

You can't know that. You're not there to read their body language and the OP has explicitly told them he was fine when that wasn't true. I'm not saying what they're doing is okay but it's very likely that the OP is not without fault here.

The only way to be sure is to attack the problem head-on; tell them, explicitly, that he's having this problem and see how they react. If they're what you think they are then they'll just mock him and he can leave with the certainty of knowing he did all he can. If they're not, he avoids throwing away a decade of friendship over a miscommunication.

[Nifft]

Can't there be both types of "friend" groups without each faction trying to tell the others they are wrong?

No, having friends is inherently wrong.

[Velaryon]

I'm with Kelb on this. It may well be that the OP's gaming group are jerks who are not worth his time, but none of us in this thread have seen this situation and cannot make that call. OP has explicitly told them that everything is fine when it's not, which is an unhealthy behavior, and it is unfair to blame them for taking OP at his word when he denies that there is a problem.

And as for the other "friendship" elements other than the 1-2 per week game sessions, we don't really hang out or do stuff together. We used to do other stuff and that was great, but that was a long time ago.

If I asked them for help with anything that doesn't have to do with gaming, I don't think they would care or make up excuses not to help. I don't trust them enough to help me anyway. It's hard to trust someone who always makes fun of you and kicks you down.

The last time I really did anything with them other than tabletop was back a few months ago when I helped them move to their new apartment. Our friendship was already in the crapper at that point and I was hoping that helping them move would have mended things. I just wanted to have a sense of belonging with that group again. But sadly it was not to be. They did not seem all that happy or appreciative that I was helping them, even though I did help them a lot, taking 8 hours out of my day using a ton of fuel and physical energy.

I don't really know if they are social morons, emotionally immature, or whatever, because I feel like I don't really know them anymore. They have changed over the years, of course, everyone does, but not really for the better.

And I like what Pex said. It's true, friends do tend to outgrow each other after a while, and I think that might be what's happening here.
And not all of them are equally mean. There is one who I could talk to about this without making it worse.

This is definitely a sign that it's a people issue, not a game issue, as others have said. It's clear that you feel you're losing or have lost the friendship. However, I do think you should try talking to one of them (you said there was one you felt would be more approachable than the others, right?) and letting them know that you feel like an outsider, like their insults have gone beyond good-natured ribbing, and that you're feeling uncomfortable and considering splitting from the group.

It might well be that you've grown apart from them, but I think you'd be doing yourself a disservice to assume that without at least trying to discuss the situation with them first.

Also, someone on page 1 mentioned that you sounded depressed. I did not see if you replied to that. Do you suffer from depression? It has been my experience that depression leads me to believe things like "none of my coworkers like me" or "these people I thought were my friends would be happier if I wasn't here with them." That isn't necessarily true - depression is dangerous because it weaponizes your fears and turns them against you. You don't have to answer if you don't want to, but if you do suffer from depression, please consider that it often tells you to assume the worst about people when the worst isn't actually true.

[GunDragon]

You're right, this is a people problem, not a game problem.
And yeah I do have depression. I've had it for 10 years also.
What I think I'm going to do is give this group 1 last try. 1 last try. We'll see how it goes.

[GrayDeath]

I may be harping too strongly into the same chink others did, but let me restate: Dont "Give it a try".
Tell Them. In a way NOONE can misunderstand.
Anything else will only tell you already know: That at this time the game is not fun for you, and that their behaviour disturbs your wellbeing.

Confronting them (ideally, as you mentioned wanting to do, not all of them at once) aobout it however will kae sure where the problem lies.

Believe me, as someone who "lost" a Gaming Group because I didnt say anything about the things rubbing me wrong (though the specifics were wildly different and I was partially at fault): You dont want to regret saying nothing.

Good Luck.