Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bickering

[LansXero]

I based my SoB the week 32's came out 'cause I wanted to do scenic building ruins as bases and I couldn't do it on 25's and seraphim are impossible to balance on 25's. My old celestine got a high scenic base and it just so happens that she is about the same dimensions as the new one that got released months later.

How did you account for the wings though? The old one is really narrow, while the new one is very broad.

As for rebasing, it depends on how much effort you have put in. If you just did generic sand, base colour and a dry brush, then sure, it's not much effort to rebase 'em, but if you did a bunch of custom work with water effects, flight stands, trees, rocks and such, then there's a certain amount of leeway involved. As with all things, the more awesome your stuff looks, the more slack you get cut, especially if you aren't "that guy".

Whats so hard about just taking all that and placing it on top of a 32mm base? why even cut at all?

[9mm]

EDIT: I based all my 7th Ed Skaven on square 20's, but given how competitive my AoS scene is, I'm [i] expected[\i] to be "that guy" by stacking them 4 deep.

But clan rats are just supposed to stand in front of the globe throwers 2 deep across the entire battlefield.

Will admit I just replaced my reaper bones skeletons with actual GW boney bois when NOVA said round bases only.

Whats so hard about just taking all that and placing it on top of a 32mm base? why even cut at all?

doesn't look good and difficult to extend to the new base size.

[Salcomine]

There are lots of base extender products around for much cheaper than new GW bases. Little glue on rings so you dont gotta redo the bases just have a new boarder around them.

[Cheesegear]

Whats so hard about just taking all that and placing it on top of a 32mm base? why even cut at all?

Because gluing a base onto another base looks bad. However, what you can do - and I myself, have done several times - is that you cut off the vertical parts of the base, like, the edges that make the model stand up, the sides? Should leave you just a flat ring - or square, in the case of old WHFB models - that you just glue onto a bigger base. You then use the thick texture paints to cover up the seams.

There are lots of base extender products around for much cheaper than new GW bases. Little glue on rings so you dont gotta redo the bases just have a new boarder around them.

Yeah. I've seen those. You end up with bases kind of looking like models from War Machine. Rebasing your models is easy if you just put in a tiny amount of effort
However, the attitude of people that don't rebase essentially amounts to 'Yeah, I'm not doing that' at best, and 'It's better mechanically if I don't, lolololololol' at worst.

The only argument I accept - as always - is down to finances. However, you can buy 100 bases for the cost of a Codex. So, my question is, if you can't afford 100 bases, how can you afford 100 models? In AUD, you can buy 110 32mm bases for the price of one of the new Ork Vehicles. I imagine the ratios are pretty close for other countries, too... So, in that sense, I'm not even going to accept financial arguments, either.

[Wraith]

The only argument I accept - as always - is down to finances. However, you can buy 100 bases for the cost of a Codex. So, my question is, if you can't afford 100 bases, how can you afford 100 models? In AUD, you can buy 110 32mm bases for the price of one of the new Ork Vehicles. I imagine the ratios are pretty close for other countries, too... So, in that sense, I'm not even going to accept financial arguments, either.

The sounds somewhat entitled and disingenuous - you're taking on behalf of Tourney players as a representative of all players again. I think I speak for the majority when I'd say that most people don't buy whole armies - " a hundred models" - all at once, if not just because of the cost involved but because it's a lot of work to grind through assembling and painting all at once.

Most people budget themselves for a bit at a time, a squad or vehicle here or there, as their allowance or pay cheque allows. To demand that someone spend their entire monthly/bi-monthly/whatever allotment of "GW money" on bases or base extenders just so that someone like you will "let them" keep playing with the models they have already spent months (or years) collecting.... If you were to say that to my face, my response would simply be "then I won't play you" and go about my day whether you accept it or not.

[Cheesegear]

I think I speak for the majority when I'd say that most people don't buy whole armies - " a hundred models" - all at once

I've never said that that was the case. Not even I do that.

it's a lot of work to grind through assembling and painting all at once.

It sure is, combined with...

Most people budget themselves for a bit at a time, a squad or vehicle here or there, as their allowance or pay cheque allows.

...I addressed in my previous posts.

To demand that someone spend their entire monthly/bi-monthly/whatever allotment of "GW money" on bases or base extenders just so that someone like you will "let them" keep playing with the models they have already spent months (or years) collecting.... If you were to say that to my face, my response would simply be "then I won't play you" and go about my day whether you accept it or not.

Once again you're just assuming I'm a robot, who doesn't make exceptions where circumstances warrant.

There is a very big difference between someone who can't afford 100 bases at once (again, see my previous posts)*, and someone who refuses to buy 100 bases. As has been mentioned, the mechanical advantage that fighting in 3 ranks has - over 2 ranks - especially for Orks, is quite significant, by choosing not to rebase your models, you are, in fact, modelling for advantage. If a cheater refuses to play me, I'm not too bothered.

Now, if you're an Ork player, on a budget, where your army is 3x10 Orks (a la WarhammerTV), and it's clear that you only have the option of 'putting down what you have'. I'm not particularly bothered that your Boyz are on 25s. You're clearly on a budget, and even if you weren't, it's not like you're using the Boyz in such a way that causes mechanical advantage...

For comparisons...
Tactical Marines are on 32s now. If you run 5-mans, I'm not particularly bothered if you have them on 25mm bases. They're Tactical Marines. They get +1 to Cover. Rad. Have it. You can shoot Boltguns at me all you want. Devastators? That's a bit different. Especially if you're running 3 squads of them. All on 25s grouped up together around buff pieces (e.g; Banners and Characters) in a large-ish terrain piece and taking advantage of other 'wholly within' rules, because I will want to shoot them - even if they're not holding an Objective.

Another example is Death Company. 15-man Death Company on 25mm bases, has a much smaller footprint than the same unit on 32mm bases, which is a big deal due to how Blood Angel SUA works within the Codex, and it's also important because Death Company with Jump Packs are the best unit in the Codex. Now, if you've got a 5-man Death Company unit with no Thunder Hammers, on foot. Then I'm not going to care what bases they're on because it literally doesn't matter in such a way that it has an appreciable effect on the game.

Back to Boyz; If you've got 3 units of 10. It doesn't matter what bases they're on.
If you've got 3 units of 30 Stormboys, with another unit of 30 Boys for ObSec and/or Da Jump, it definitely does matter what bases they're on because it's quite clear that you wont not use the fact that they're all on 25s to your advantage... Which ties into my point. If you're a player with 90 Stormboys, with 30 more Boyz, with HQs and Grots to go with them. It's clear that budget isn't really a concern, and you do know full well what you're doing.

If budget is a concern, and your retort is "Yeah, but I built this army over several months if not a year."
My response can only be "So...Keep doing that, then. Bases are pretty cheap. Buy them over time. Same as everything else." (again, this is just a repeat of what I've said previously).

But I do expect some effort to be made to conform to the rules (even if it does take 4-5 months), especially if you're going to use some of the better models/army builds in the game (again, I said this previously).

Oh, that reminds me...

At an event I went to a year (?) ago. Dude was going to get penalised 'cause his army was badly painted. Except then it was brought up that he had tremors in his right hand. That is, his dominant hand didn't work right. And he's literally having to learn to do everything with his left hand, one of those fine motor skills that he has to re-learn, is painting. Everyone at the Event was like 'Fair enough' and let it slide, because he had a limitation.

...But, fact is, his models were (badly) basecoated and washed (no highlighting, obviously), with a three colour minimum, and based. He put in the best effort that he was able to. He clearly tried. It probably took him ages, and a lot of effort. So everyone gave him a pass, and the one or two people that said it was unfair that he got full paint score despite not having a 'well-painted army' are known a-holes to us anyway.
"At least he didn't pay someone else to paint his army for him!"
...Sick burn.

...Where was I?
I think I've said everything that matters.

[LansXero]

Sorry to derail the current discussion, but any good ideas on how to convert Eldar Rangers? They aren´t in the trade range, and I'd rather not order from the GW website if I can avoid it.

[Professor Gnoll]

Sorry to derail the current discussion, but any good ideas on how to convert Eldar Rangers? They aren´t in the trade range, and I'd rather not order from the GW website if I can avoid it.

I've seen people mix Shadow Warriors with Guardians or Dire Avengers, either modifying the shuriken catapults or using trimmed-down spare Splinter Rifle/Cannons (trimmed down splinter weapons look almost perfect, but unless you can get the bits it'd require buying yet another kit, which is going to get expensive). Otherwise, depending on how handy you are with Green Stuff, you can model your own cloaks onto guardians, and extend their catapults.

[Cheesegear]

Sorry to derail the current discussion, but any good ideas on how to convert Eldar Rangers?

Kabalite Warriors, cut off all the spikes, add Guardian heads. Green Stuff cloaks and hoods.
Looks pretty good.

Posted from phone.

[Renegade Paladin]

So for Apocalypse (open/narrative play, remember) in a couple of weeks, the Imperium is going to occupy a large fortification network; we're basically going to play a gigantic game of Stronghold Assault. I have a large scratch built fortification set which includes one extremely large bunker. I'm thinking of running it as a custom building, with the stat line, transport capacity, and fire points of an Aquila Strongpoint but no weapons attached and the following ability:

Command Bunker: An Astra Militarum Infantry Officer embarked in the Munitorum Command Bunker may ignore the range limitation on his Voice of Command ability, so long as the target unit contains a vox-caster. A Master of Ordnance embarked in the Munitorum Command Bunker may use his Artillery Barrage attack each turn so long as he remains embarked, measuring range and line of sight from any point on the model. An Officer of the Fleet embarked in the Munitorum Command Bunker may use his Air Raid Requested ability each turn so long as he remains embarked, measuring line of sight from any point on the model, and may use his Strafing Coordinates ability, measuring range from any point on the model.

I thought about allowing the Master of Ordnance to apply Master of Ballistics to applicable units within 6" of the bunker, but thought that might be a little much. Thoughts?

[LeSwordfish]

What's the capacity of that? Can I fill it full of Platoon Commanders and give my entire army Orders?

Other than that, seems cool. A bit low-key for apocalypse maybe.

[Drasius]

How did you account for the wings though? The old one is really narrow, while the new one is very broad.

My scenic bases are generally a little over the top, so if someone can see the ruins, they could see NewCelestine's wings.

Whats so hard about just taking all that and placing it on top of a 32mm base? why even cut at all?

Because it will look like absolute trash if you've put any effort at all into your scenic base.

[Renegade Paladin]

What's the capacity of that? Can I fill it full of Platoon Commanders and give my entire army Orders?

Other than that, seems cool. A bit low-key for apocalypse maybe.

An Aquila strongpoint's transport capacity is 30. I suppose by the wording you could, but I'm not going to. The general idea is to replicate the Lord Castellan's Supreme Command from 6th edition Apocalypse.

[Sinewmire]

Kabalite Warriors, cut off all the spikes, add Guardian heads. Green Stuff cloaks and hoods.
Looks pretty good.

Posted from phone.

How about mixing Guardians and Wood Elf Eternal guardians?

They have the right robey-armoury look.

[lord_khaine]

Gellar fields are important

[Cheesegear]

How about mixing Guardians and Wood Elf Eternal guardians?

The only reason you want Guardians is for their heads. I refuse to recommend Guardians for the weapon. By 'Eternal Guard', I hope you mean the box, as a whole, and you're actually using the Wildwood Ranger parts which are so much better.
If you aren't starting with a base of Kabalite Warriors Splinter Rifles, your Sniper Rifles are going to look pretty dumb.
All Ranger conversions (IMO) should start with whatever you're using carrying a Splinter Rifle... I know. Real Rangers look like they're carrying Lance weapons. I have heard that people use Dark Lances from their Drukhari, since Ravagers all run Dizzy Cannons now, so most competitive Aeldari players should have 6-9 Dark Lances lying around...And need to make 15 Rangers. So their three Ravagers gets them at least one squad.

If you want to stick Splinter Rifles onto the [Shadow Warriors/Sisters of the Watch] and [Wildwood Rangers/Eternal Guard] kit, I'm all for that. I've seen that. Online and in person. It looks great.
(While we're at it, I've also seen Sisters of the Watch get used as a Sisters of Silence conversion base)

Here's one using the Wildwood...

Spoiler

Show

But if you start your conversion with the idea that you're gonna use Shuriken Catapults as the weapon base...You're in for some bad-looking models. You can pretty much put any Body/Head combination you want into a green stuff cloak, because all Aelves pretty much look the same and their models pretty much match just like Space Marines as long as your paint scheme is unified (hence Dark Eldar Wraithknights). What's going to make or break your model is the weapon.

[LansXero]

So, I know its just one order, but if GW thinks Sisters should go anywhere near melee, I fear for the rest of the codex. Sure, its supposed to be a beta, but then... how much do people really expect it to change?



I always found Seraphims to be meh at best. Getting to burn things on turn 2 with low power flamers wont change that. The cinic in me is sure the rest of the book is stuff for repentias, penitent engines, crusaders and priests, as in, anything except what Sisters actually use.

Im so dissapointed :(

[Forum Explorer]

So, I know its just one order, but if GW thinks Sisters should go anywhere near melee, I fear for the rest of the codex. Sure, its supposed to be a beta, but then... how much do people really expect it to change?



I always found Seraphims to be meh at best. Getting to burn things on turn 2 with low power flamers wont change that. The cinic in me is sure the rest of the book is stuff for repentias, penitent engines, crusaders and priests, as in, anything except what Sisters actually use.

Im so dissapointed :(

Guard got a melee trait for one of it's factions and it ended up being one of the strongest factions in the game despite them nominally being a shooty army. +1 S and attack means Sisters are going to be pretty nasty in combat.

It's a nice buff for Seraphim but yeah, I don't think that's going to push them to being a super good unit. It might be worth it for a squad of 10 with bolt pistols though. 20 extra bolt pistol shots for 1 CP is pretty nice.

[Blackhawk748]

So, I know its just one order, but if GW thinks Sisters should go anywhere near melee, I fear for the rest of the codex. Sure, its supposed to be a beta, but then... how much do people really expect it to change?



I always found Seraphims to be meh at best. Getting to burn things on turn 2 with low power flamers wont change that. The cinic in me is sure the rest of the book is stuff for repentias, penitent engines, crusaders and priests, as in, anything except what Sisters actually use.

Im so dissapointed :(

Your pics arent working for me fyi

Anyway, the Seraphim ability is ok, as if you want to make a Brigade or want to have some girlfriends for Celestine you need to take them. As is, its ok. The hand Flamers are ok as you buy a pair of them and IIRC the don't have a unique statline so you are actually dual weidling them. Meaning each Seraphim with a pair of hand flamers gets 2d6 shots that auto hit for a reasonable price (if they dont mess with the prices).

As for Order of the Bloody rose... its ok. I mean, one of Sisters biggest issues in melee was that their Strength sucked so Celestians were straight garbage in melee. Now, does this mean i'll take them? Probably not. Are there units that can take advantage of it? Sure, if they make Repentia not hot garbage.

[LeSwordfish]

It seems a little premature to assume that statlines and special rules will stay the same.

[Blackhawk748]

It seems a little premature to assume that statlines and special rules will stay the same.

The special rules i agree with, though im not usre how many armies have had their units base abilities changed drastically, but why would you think their statlines would change? Sisters have been Strength and Toughness 3 for decades, so i dont see why that would change.

[LeSwordfish]

Well, they're redoing the whole shebang. I doubt we'll see Strength and Toughness, but I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they went down to a 4+ armour save, for example. Or maybe they'll get Terminator-equivalent units, or hand flamers will be a single profile not dual, or every seraphim carries a power sword, or, or, or,

I'm not sure I'm honestly expecting massive changes, but I think to look at a fragment of a fragment of a book and go "they'll be the best" is ludicrous. "Sucks already :(" is equally ludicrous, but also really annoying.

[Blackhawk748]

Well, they're redoing the whole shebang. I doubt we'll see Strength and Toughness, but I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they went down to a 4+ armour save, for example. Or maybe they'll get Terminator-equivalent units, or hand flamers will be a single profile not dual, or every seraphim carries a power sword, or, or, or,

I'm not sure I'm honestly expecting massive changes, but I think to look at a fragment of a fragment of a book and go "they'll be the best" is ludicrous. "Sucks already :(" is equally ludicrous, but also really annoying.

If they go to armor 4+ i will be pissed, though i would like Termi units, specifically some Retributor Vets or something. Actually i made a unit of them back in 7th for some homebrew, even got a test play on them. That was fun.

And thats why i just judged it based off of what i could see and used the Index as a base. If they don't improve our melee units, that Trait sucks. The Stratagem is ok, but not amazing with current Seraphim, though its a bit annoying that it does nothing for Melta pistols.

[JNAProductions]

I can’t find the post.

What are the leaks?

[Blackhawk748]

I can’t find the post.

What are the leaks?

I got you.

[JNAProductions]

Many thanks, friend!

[Aresneo]

Somehow I'm more excited by the Blackstone Fortress preview in the article. Specifically what look like a group of new plastic Squats.

[Renegade Paladin]

I can’t find the post.

What are the leaks?

Here, in an announcement roundup from the Blood and Glory event rather than in a discrete (and clearly titled) post.

Somehow I'm more excited by the Blackstone Fortress preview in the article. Specifically what look like a group of new plastic Squats.

Wouldn't it be a gasser if the mysterious answerers of the Vigilus distress call were Squats?

Reference, for those who don't want to dig through their mega-post.

[Avaris]

Your pics arent working for me fyi

Anyway, the Seraphim ability is ok, as if you want to make a Brigade or want to have some girlfriends for Celestine you need to take them. As is, its ok. The hand Flamers are ok as you buy a pair of them and IIRC the don't have a unique statline so you are actually dual weidling them. Meaning each Seraphim with a pair of hand flamers gets 2d6 shots that auto hit for a reasonable price (if they dont mess with the prices).

2d3 shots: hand flamers were errated down from d6 early on in 8th. I like the theory of the strategem, but am struggling to think of anything that would be a priority target that can be taken down with 4d3 hand flamer shots + 2*16 bolt pistol shots (including shooting phase). You’re probably getting 6 S3 hits and 21 S4 hits out of your squad of 10, which isn’t exactly threatening to most things. Could be used to take out a lone character, but aren’t many that will be that fragile. Say you’re hitting a basic SM character, so T4: you get probably 2 wounds from the flamers and 10 from bolt pistols, then they might fail 4 armour saves total. If only the range extension applied to the Inferno Pistols as well...

Specifically what look like a group of new plastic squats.

Pretty sure they’re Ratlings. Look at the feet.

[Blackhawk748]

2d3 shots: hand flamers were errated down from d6 early on in 8th. I like the theory of the strategem, but am struggling to think of anything that would be a priority target that can be taken down with 4d3 hand flamer shots + 2*16 bolt pistol shots (including shooting phase). You’re probably getting 6 S3 hits and 21 S4 hits out of your squad of 10, which isn’t exactly threatening to most things. Could be used to take out a lone character, but aren’t many that will be that fragile. Say you’re hitting a basic SM character, so T4: you get probably 2 wounds from the flamers and 10 from bolt pistols, then they might fail 4 armour saves total. If only the range extension applied to the Inferno Pistols as well...

Apparently i missed that, and my god why would you buy Flamer Pistols now? Seriously, thats just sad.