Anonymouswizard researches Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

[Gnoman]

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Slytherin's monster has a perfectly good reason to exist. It was the pet of a wizard that hated wizards who aren't "pure" enough, and he locked it away for his heirs after he was gone. There is absolutely no need to give it any more justification whatsoever, and creating the imbecilic "interdict of Merlin" is just one more way the author makes his absolute contempt of the series crystal clear.

[druid91]

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Slytherin's monster has a perfectly good reason to exist. It was the pet of a wizard that hated wizards who aren't "pure" enough, and he locked it away for his heirs after he was gone. There is absolutely no need to give it any more justification whatsoever, and creating the imbecilic "interdict of Merlin" is just one more way the author makes his absolute contempt of the series crystal clear.

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I mean, it's kind of a stupid thing to do though isn't it? One Avada Kedavra and it's dead. They make a big deal about how there's almost nothing that can stop the Avada Kedavra, and if Basilisks were one of those things you'd think they'd note it. And USING the Killing Curse is only illegal on humans, not Basilisks or other magical creatures.

So, it's an almost entirely ineffective weapon against it's supposed targets, and only gets on so well as it did because of arbitrary stupidity from hundreds of years of the 'Finest Witches and Wizards of their Generation' in disbelieving that something demonstrably true is really just myth.

Slytherin would have been much better off just... doing basically ANYTHING else, as opposed to hiding a giant snake in a secret room.

[Sapphire Guard]

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If you want to leave behind knowledge, why not a library or a Pensieve, what do you need a giant snake for?

Avada Kedevra is an instakill attack. So is looking at a Basilisk. Which do you think will take effect first?

IIRC there is a conversation about the 'For Enemies' spell in MOR. It's not relevant to anything in story, it's just brought up at random in a conversation between Harry and...Snape, I think? Why does this conversation happen, except to take a pointless jab at the HP books?

[Silver Swift]

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If you want to leave behind knowledge, why not a library or a Pensieve, what do you need a giant snake for?

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The interdict of Merlin prevents powerful magic from being transferred in any way other than one person directly explaining it to another. Instructions written in a book explicitly don't work and I'm assuming a Pensieve doesn't work either, but teaching your secrets to a long lived sentient snake and having it teach your heirs does.

"Powerful wizard has a secret pet and doesn't know what to do with it after his death" is also a fine explanation, but the interdict is a decent re-interpretation. It's good worldbuilding, helps illustrate Voldemorts character and gives Quirrelmort a plausible lie to feed Harry about his true motivations.

Now, I happen to agree with you, based on my limited knowledge of it, but I'm not sure people who prefer it to HP do.

Anecdotal evidence, but I do. HPMOR works best when it's doing its own thing, comparing it to canon is kind of a pointless exercise when the two stories are trying to do such radically different things.

[Foeofthelance]

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I mean, it's kind of a stupid thing to do though isn't it? One Avada Kedavra and it's dead. They make a big deal about how there's almost nothing that can stop the Avada Kedavra, and if Basilisks were one of those things you'd think they'd note it. And USING the Killing Curse is only illegal on humans, not Basilisks or other magical creatures.

So, it's an almost entirely ineffective weapon against it's supposed targets, and only gets on so well as it did because of arbitrary stupidity from hundreds of years of the 'Finest Witches and Wizards of their Generation' in disbelieving that something demonstrably true is really just myth.

Slytherin would have been much better off just... doing basically ANYTHING else, as opposed to hiding a giant snake in a secret room.

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The thing to remember is that the Chamber of Secrets is never really explored in any context. For all we know, it was originally a store house of books and other such things. From the fact that the entrance is located on the edge of a fairly modern sink, someone had to have been doing some upkeep on it well after Slytherin was gone. The basilisk only comes out because the homicidal ghost of a serial killer mentally dominates an eleven year old girl into telling it to. On the other hand, it makes a pretty good test of 'worthiness' as any Parseltongue can enter the chamber and tell the basilisk to go back to sleep. Its entirely possible Voldemort had already looted it of everything worth taking, leaving only the giant monster that would have been much more difficult to smuggle out. Or its possible that there were still other things left to explore, as no one seems to have gone back in until Ron fetches the fang, and he can only do so because he's listened to Harry talk in his sleep.

[Sapphire Guard]

Honestly, that seems much stupider than the 'secret pet' explanation.

[Aeson]

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If you want to leave behind knowledge, why not a library or a Pensieve, what do you need a giant snake for?

Avada Kedevra is an instakill attack. So is looking at a Basilisk. Which do you think will take effect first?

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The one that doesn't require you to say a bunch of funny words in order to make it work.

Also, there's suggestions in the books that Avada Kedavra isn't exactly the easiest spell to cast; Crouch-Moody suggests that Harry's entire fourth-year class could cast it on him in unison without doing anything worse than giving him a nosebleed, and one of the Death Eaters (Bellatrix?) or maybe Voldemort told Harry that he had to mean the Unforgivable Curses in order to cast them effectively.

There's also the possibility that the giant snake might insulate the Heir of Slytherine from detection, or at least incrimination; there are ways to reveal what spell a wand has recently cast, Hogwarts might have a system which could alert teachers whenever something too nasty is going on, and Dumbledore indicates that powerful magic leaves marks both on people and upon the area in which it was cast, which suggests that. A giant snake with a deadly gaze? Probably not so easy to trace back to the person who's setting it upon others, especially if you're not sure exactly what the monster is - a basilisk? A catoblepas? A cockatrice? Something like Medusa? Something else? - or how it's getting around without being seen. Even if you do find and catch the monster, how do you prove that a specific student has been setting it upon others? Parseltongue is a rare gift, many wizards are apparently biased against those who have it, and a basilisk that's been killing children is probably in the "kill on sight" and "too dangerous to attempt to capture" categories rather than the "capture so that we can interrogate it" category even if there's anyone willing to admit that they can speak to it who might be trusted enough to interrogate it, so how likely is it that anyone is going to question the snake even if it is found? Unless little Johnny Slytherine is unfortunate enough to be caught in the act of controlling the snake and setting it upon someone, he'll probably get away scot-free, and even if he is caught in the act he may well be able to claim that he was trying to stop the snake in the only way he could; it's not like it's all that likely that anyone else who understands Parseltongue will hear him ordering the snake to kill someone.

[hamishspence]

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From the fact that the entrance is located on the edge of a fairly modern sink, someone had to have been doing some upkeep on it well after Slytherin was gone.

Yup - this guy:

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Corvinus_Gaunt

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no one seems to have gone back in until Ron fetches the fang, and he can only do so because he's listened to Harry talk in his sleep.

Actually, in book 7:

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Harry uses Parseltongue to open the locket Horcrux in front of Ron. I think Ron remembered that "Open" command from then, and was able to mimic it later to get in. (Harry had also opened the sink in front of Ron too - but that was 5 years before, and the locket opening would have been much fresher in Ron's memory).


"Ron remembered Harry speaking it at random in his sleep" was I think, movie only. Having it be remembering the opening of the locket, works better IMO.

[Lethologica]

Honestly, that seems much stupider than the 'secret pet' explanation.

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The Interdict of Merlin is something that makes sense for the HPMOR universe, wherein the 'smartest' characters are generally strongly concerned with the potentially existential threat posed by reality-warping magic. Given that principle, using Slytherin's monster to bypass the Interdict is a neat reformulation of the monster's raison d'etre.

Yudkowsky's issue with the basilisk in canon is explained via his mouthpiece Quirrell: the nominal purpose of the serpent is so that the Heir of Slytherin can use it to purge the unworthy from Hogwarts, but the basilisk isn't realistically able to accomplish that goal. Of course, that issue disappears if one views the basilisk as one tool to be used towards that end, rather than the sole means, but it wouldn't be HPMOR if it didn't make the most of its nitpicks.

This is honestly a great example of both the good and bad of HPMOR that I discussed before.

[Aeson]

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The Interdict of Merlin is something that makes sense for the HPMOR universe, wherein the 'smartest' characters are generally strongly concerned with the potentially existential threat posed by reality-warping magic. Given that principle, using Slytherin's monster to bypass the Interdict is a neat reformulation of the monster's raison d'etre.

Yudkowsky's issue with the basilisk in canon is explained via his mouthpiece Quirrell: the nominal purpose of the serpent is so that the Heir of Slytherin can use it to purge the unworthy from Hogwarts, but the basilisk isn't realistically able to accomplish that goal. Of course, that issue disappears if one views the basilisk as one tool to be used towards that end, rather than the sole means, but it wouldn't be HPMOR if it didn't make the most of its nitpicks.

This is honestly a great example of both the good and bad of HPMOR that I discussed before.

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I think you're underestimating how much damage an unresolved string of assaults and murders could do to the school, especially if the assaults and murders recur every time the school reopens over some long period of time. The primary objective of the plan is to limit magical knowledge to those 'worthy' of learning it; keeping the school open but only available to the wizard-born is essentially a bonus. Getting the school shut down probably goes a long way towards accomplishing the primary goal; the wizard-born ought to be in a significantly better position to learn magic without the school than the muggle-born are, between having parents and siblings who know magic and presumably also having better access to resources for learning magic, like wizarding tutors, Diagon and Knockturn Alleys, and a greater likelihood of knowing someone who can point out where to find out about something to do with magic. Mr and Mrs Granger can instill Hermione with a drive to learn, but they cannot teach her how to cast a spell, tell her where to find the Practical Magic section of the local library, send her to a family friend for help with her potions, etc. Mr and Mrs Weasely could in theory do all of that and perhaps more for their children. Additionally, wealthy wizarding families like the Malfoys can probably more easily hire private wizarding tutors and better evaluate how good the tutors are than muggle families like the Grangers.

Obviously, obtaining the power to set admissions policy at the school and using administrative powers to purge the school of the 'unworthy' students is a more viable long-term solution than assault and murder, especially as it doesn't have the side-effect of denying the 'worthy' students access to the resources of a school like Hogwarts, but if you're nasty enough to think that murdering children is a reasonable way to accomplish something in the first place, the basilisk isn't a completely terrible fallback plan.

[5a Violista]

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I think you're underestimating how much damage an unresolved string of assaults and murders could do to the school, especially if the assaults and murders recur every time the school reopens over some long period of time. The primary objective of the plan is to limit magical knowledge to those 'worthy' of learning it; keeping the school open but only available to the wizard-born is essentially a bonus. Getting the school shut down probably goes a long way towards accomplishing the primary goal; the wizard-born ought to be in a significantly better position to learn magic without the school than the muggle-born are, between having parents and siblings who know magic and presumably also having better access to resources for learning magic, like wizarding tutors, Diagon and Knockturn Alleys, and a greater likelihood of knowing someone who can point out where to find out about something to do with magic. Mr and Mrs Granger can instill Hermione with a drive to learn, but they cannot teach her how to cast a spell, tell her where to find the Practical Magic section of the local library, send her to a family friend for help with her potions, etc. Mr and Mrs Weasely could in theory do all of that and perhaps more for their children. Additionally, wealthy wizarding families like the Malfoys can probably more easily hire private wizarding tutors and better evaluate how good the tutors are than muggle families like the Grangers.

Obviously, obtaining the power to set admissions policy at the school and using administrative powers to purge the school of the 'unworthy' students is a more viable long-term solution than assault and murder, especially as it doesn't have the side-effect of denying the 'worthy' students access to the resources of a school like Hogwarts, but if you're nasty enough to think that murdering children is a reasonable way to accomplish something in the first place, the basilisk isn't a completely terrible fallback plan.

(Not in spoilers because it talks about HP-canon, not MoR spoilers, and I'm sure Anonymouswizard is probably tired of opening up this thread and just seeing post after post of hidden spoilers)

It should also be remembered that, in canon, Slytherin grew up in an era where "A muggle-born betrays us to the local muggles and causes the local muggles to try to kill us" was not an irrational fear. He just took it to more extremes than the other founders, who seemed unworried about that possibility. Because the other founders wouldn't listen to him on his blood-purity argument, he probably felt forced to set in additional precautions on his own.

...
Anyway, I probably won't get back involved in this thread's conversations until I have something to say about Methods of Rationality that isn't a spoiler for Anonymouswizard.

[Lethologica]

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I think you're underestimating how much damage an unresolved string of assaults and murders could do to the school, especially if the assaults and murders recur every time the school reopens over some long period of time. The primary objective of the plan is to limit magical knowledge to those 'worthy' of learning it; keeping the school open but only available to the wizard-born is essentially a bonus. Getting the school shut down probably goes a long way towards accomplishing the primary goal; the wizard-born ought to be in a significantly better position to learn magic without the school than the muggle-born are, between having parents and siblings who know magic and presumably also having better access to resources for learning magic, like wizarding tutors, Diagon and Knockturn Alleys, and a greater likelihood of knowing someone who can point out where to find out about something to do with magic. Mr and Mrs Granger can instill Hermione with a drive to learn, but they cannot teach her how to cast a spell, tell her where to find the Practical Magic section of the local library, send her to a family friend for help with her potions, etc. Mr and Mrs Weasely could in theory do all of that and perhaps more for their children. Additionally, wealthy wizarding families like the Malfoys can probably more easily hire private wizarding tutors and better evaluate how good the tutors are than muggle families like the Grangers.

Obviously, obtaining the power to set admissions policy at the school and using administrative powers to purge the school of the 'unworthy' students is a more viable long-term solution than assault and murder, especially as it doesn't have the side-effect of denying the 'worthy' students access to the resources of a school like Hogwarts, but if you're nasty enough to think that murdering children is a reasonable way to accomplish something in the first place, the basilisk isn't a completely terrible fallback plan.

It's not that I underestimate that damage, but more that I don't feel that damage lines up with Slytherin's supposed goal. If Slytherin felt that no Hogwarts was better than Muggle-borns learning at Hogwarts as a general matter, he would have refused to found the school on those terms. So that preference must be circumstantial in nature - there must be some additional conditions under which using the basilisk to end the school would be better than continuing to let Muggle-borns attend. That kind of "in case of X, break glass" approach to the basilisk's presence does not jibe with how it is presented to us in the book. Its primary utility is supposed to be purging the unworthy, not purging the school entire, and its utility is conditioned on discovery by the Heir, not by anything else happening at the school that would bring about those circumstances.

That said, I addressed why I felt this criticism of canon was a nitpick at best to begin with, so I don't regard this as a significant point of difference.

[Sapphire Guard]

If slytherin doesn't help found the school, the others found a different one somewhere else.

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The Interdict of Merlin is something that makes sense for the HPMOR universe, wherein the 'smartest' characters are generally strongly concerned with the potentially existential threat posed by reality-warping magic. Given that principle, using Slytherin's monster to bypass the Interdict is a neat reformulation of the monster's raison d'etre.

Yudkowsky's issue with the basilisk in canon is explained via his mouthpiece Quirrell: the nominal purpose of the serpent is so that the Heir of Slytherin can use it to purge the unworthy from Hogwarts, but the basilisk isn't realistically able to accomplish that goal. Of course, that issue disappears if one views the basilisk as one tool to be used towards that end, rather than the sole means, but it wouldn't be HPMOR if it didn't make the most of its nitpicks.

This is honestly a great example of both the good and bad of HPMOR that I discussed before.

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If Merlin is powerful enough to enforce such an arbitrary rule, why can he not enforce one that just prevents said magic from being cast? It can't be because others are powerful enough to break it, because that would apply to the other spell too.

PMOR works best when it's doing its own thing, comparing it to canon is kind of a pointless exercise when the two stories are trying to do such radically different things.

Normally this would be true, but when MOR itself is making fun of canon without representing it accurately, it becomes a valid criticism.

[deuterio12]

It's not that I underestimate that damage, but more that I don't feel that damage lines up with Slytherin's supposed goal. If Slytherin felt that no Hogwarts was better than Muggle-borns learning at Hogwarts as a general matter, he would have refused to found the school on those terms.

Slytherin could've, you know, changed his mind after the school's foundation. Maybe he expected the filthy mudbloods would prove less capable at studies and reduced to secondary status, but when they proved to be just as good at magic as pure-blooded wizards then he started to be pissed off. Maybe he was just less of a racist jerk at start but got bitter and xenophobic with old age.

People are not immutable basically, Harry and his friends grow and evolve quite a lot over the books, unlike MOR's author avatar that starts as a racist "better than thou" jerk and ends as a racist "better than thou" jerk.

So that preference must be circumstantial in nature - there must be some additional conditions under which using the basilisk to end the school would be better than continuing to let Muggle-borns attend. That kind of "in case of X, break glass" approach to the basilisk's presence does not jibe with how it is presented to us in the book. Its primary utility is supposed to be purging the unworthy, not purging the school entire, and its utility is conditioned on discovery by the Heir, not by anything else happening at the school that would bring about those circumstances.

Did you miss the bit where Slytherin considered pure blooded wizards to be the master race, and his own bloodline even more mastery? So yes of course Slytherin expected his "true heir" to notice how badly the school to be going, find the basilisk and "fix" the school with it.

Normally this would be true, but when MOR itself is making fun of canon without representing it accurately, it becomes a valid criticism.

The only way to appreciate MOR is to read it as irrationaly as possibly, otherwise it indeed falls apart pretty fast.

[Douglas]

People are not immutable basically, Harry and his friends grow and evolve quite a lot over the books, unlike MOR's author avatar that starts as a racist "better than thou" jerk and ends as a racist "better than thou" jerk.

"Better than thou" and "jerk" I agree, though I think both were greatly reduced by the end, but I don't recall any racism from him. Do you have any examples?

[An Enemy Spy]

I haven't read it but every little snippet of it I've seen and everything I've heard said about it both by its fans and detractors just makes it seem so unbearably smug. Like it was written by the most insufferable self proclaimed genius who thinks that the reason people don't like him is because they can't keep up with his dazzling intellect rather than the fact that he's openly condescending and unpleasant, who thinks he's so clever because he can see the logical inconsistencies in a whimsical wizard book written for children.

[Lethologica]

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If Merlin is powerful enough to enforce such an arbitrary rule, why can he not enforce one that just prevents said magic from being cast? It can't be because others are powerful enough to break it, because that would apply to the other spell too.

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There is no information to suggest that the alternative either was or wasn't possible. As such, neither of us can say anything of use about it.

As far as comparative utility, perhaps Merlin believed his Interdict would accomplish something of value besides preventing existential threats, but I admit that nothing comes to mind.

Of course, the real answer is that Yudkowsky wanted to invent some explicit justification for forgotten ancient epic magic.

Slytherin could've, you know, changed his mind after the school's foundation. Maybe he expected the filthy mudbloods would prove less capable at studies and reduced to secondary status, but when they proved to be just as good at magic as pure-blooded wizards then he started to be pissed off. Maybe he was just less of a racist jerk at start but got bitter and xenophobic with old age.

Upon checking, something like this is in fact canon:

“For a few years, the founders worked in harmony together, seeking out youngsters who showed
signs of magic and bringing them to the castle to be educated. But then disagreements sprang up
between them. A rift began to grow between Slytherin and the others. Slytherin wished to be more
selective about the students admitted to Hogwarts. He believed that magical learning should be kept
within all-magic families. He disliked taking students of Muggle parentage, believing them to be
untrustworthy. After a while, there was a serious argument on the subject between Slytherin and
Gryffindor, and Slytherin left the school.”
Professor Binns paused again, pursing his lips, looking like a wrinkled old tortoise.
“Reliable historical sources tell us this much,” he said. “But these honest facts have been
obscured by the fanciful legend of the Chamber of Secrets. The story goes that Slytherin had built a
hidden chamber in the castle, of which the other founders knew nothing.
“Slytherin, according to the legend, sealed the Chamber of Secrets so that none would be able to
open it until his own true heir arrived at the school. The heir alone would be able to unseal the
Chamber of Secrets, unleash the horror within, and use it to purge the school of all who were
unworthy to study magic.”

So that's my error.

On other elements of this point I remain unconvinced, but have little desire to debate this minor point, and still less to engage with your apparent vitriol towards HPMOR generally.

[Frozen_Feet]

The basilisk's presence makes most sense if you consider a weapon to be used against hostile muggles, not muggle-borns.

Like, if a muggle-born did betray the school and lead an army of muggles to siege it, a thing such as the basilisk would be a massive boon.

[Silver Swift]

Anyway, I probably won't get back involved in this thread's conversations until I have something to say about Methods of Rationality that isn't a spoiler for Anonymouswizard.

Agreed. Can we move the discussion on the quality of HPMOR as well as the discussions on plot points for later in the story to another thread?

[Keltest]

Agreed. Can we move the discussion on the quality of HPMOR as well as the discussions on plot points for later in the story to another thread?

There are already two HP threads active. Do we really need a third?

[Sapphire Guard]

We could always follow GITP tradition and start arguing about Star Wars instead.

Every worthwhile LP has needlessly long, spoiler filled discussions. AES can't read a good majority of their own threads.

[hamishspence]

We could always follow GITP tradition and start arguing about Star Wars instead.

How about Star Wars's influence on Harry Potter? In the early books especially, wizards going bad is referred to as "going over to the Dark Side".

Philosopher's Stone:

Harry: "If I get caught before I can get to the Stone, well, I'll have to go back to the Dursleys and wait for Voldemort to find me there, it's only dying a bit later than I would have, because I'm never going over to the Dark Side!”

Prisoner of Azkaban:

Hagrid: "But when a wizard goes over to the Dark Side, there's nothin' and no one that matters to 'em anymore."

[keybounce]

There are already two HP threads active. Do we really need a third?

Yes.

One was about magic in HP canon, and digressed into HP:MoR

This thread about HP:MoR opened up, and I moved the discussion here, thinking it was on-topic. A mod had to remind us that this thread is about one person's first-time reading of HP:MoR.

Absolutely HP:MoR needs it's own thread. That's clear by now.

[Lethologica]

Yes.

One was about magic in HP canon, and digressed into HP:MoR

This thread about HP:MoR opened up, and I moved the discussion here, thinking it was on-topic. A mod had to remind us that this thread is about one person's first-time reading of HP:MoR.

Absolutely HP:MoR needs it's own thread. That's clear by now.

Unless I mistake you, the reminder said to keep that discussion in spoilers, not to stop posting about it in this thread entirely.

But hey, as long as we're here, is there anything I want to say about chapter 7? Well, if chapter 5 didn't make it clear, chapter 7 leaves no question that Malfoy is taking over Ron's screentime in this universe. The three-way conversation with Malfoy, Ron, and Harry at the station mirrors a similar event slightly later in canon, with Ron in Malfoy's role:

He turned back to Harry. "You'll soon find out some wizarding families are much better than others, Potter. You don't want to go making friends with the wrong sort. I can help you there."

He held out his hand to shake Harry's, but Harry didn't take it.

"I think I can tell who the wrong sort are for myself, thanks," he said coolly.

"Well, I don't intend to hang around with anyone who hangs around with Draco Malfoy," Ron announced coldly.

Harry shrugged. "That's up to you. I don't intend to let anyone say who I can and can't hang around with." Silently chanting, please go away, please go away...

Where canon Harry makes friends who can help him, HPMOR Harry makes rivals who he can lecture; rather than sharing food with Ron, breaking bread together, he shares Science with Malfoy, breaking his mind. A proper Simplicio for Harry's Salviati. Though I suppose Ron fills the role, too, in this chapter - whether it's Quidditch or blood purity, Harry inquires in order to refute.

[Tyndmyr]

I haven't read it but every little snippet of it I've seen and everything I've heard said about it both by its fans and detractors just makes it seem so unbearably smug. Like it was written by the most insufferable self proclaimed genius who thinks that the reason people don't like him is because they can't keep up with his dazzling intellect rather than the fact that he's openly condescending and unpleasant, who thinks he's so clever because he can see the logical inconsistencies in a whimsical wizard book written for children.

I'd advise reading it for yourself, then. You might view it that way afterward, and you might not. It seems that both sorts of reactions exist, but you'll get a better feel for it on a read through than you will based on quotes cherry picked from either side.

I'm interesting in seeing Anonymouswizard's reactions as he reads through it, and it'd provide another viewpoint if you were interested in doing the same. Probably easier to manage spoilers as well if we just talk about the bits that were just read.

[Fable Wright]

He's right that not everybody can become a wizard. Depending on the game it takes either 11 INT or five Failed Notches.

Ah, is this a magic fades/changes story? I like those, might actually do a MOR/UA crossover, if only because the way Adepts work would make Harry's Mind explode. Plus I could probably blag a Rationamancer out of it.

Between the two, the five failed notches are harder.

Though my headcanon is that ALL the wizards in Harry Potter are Unknown Armies characters of various stripes. Purebloods tend heavily to Adept given many chances to fail Unnatural checks in early age, while a lot of the people who were raised in muggle society tend towards Avatars. (Tom Riddle being an example of a muggleborn Adept. That... goes about as well as it does in UA.) Well-adjusted or sociopathic people turn are mundane, and most 'spells' are actually minor to significant rituals.

Spoiler: To Wit

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Harry got five Isolation notches growing up while embodying The Survivor growing up, and the magic that gave him his scar was a Major charge ritual, cashed in immediately to protect the child. As an Avatar AND Adept, he's a special kind of crazy, the chosen one. A Quiddich Viaturge/Survivor. Rational-mancer in MoR.

Hermione is an Avatar of the Scholar.

Ron had five Unnatural checks, no question, gaining Arachnaphobia as his madness. Obsession related to Wizard's Chess and his random magic has extended to plants and animals.

Neville, as the sanest and most reasonably well-adjusted individual, is actually neither an Avatar nor Adept, but does have an identity that gives him ritual casting.

Draco is clearly some kind of Adept of Cronymancy—he needs to keep Crabbe and Goyle around to use any magic. A symbiotic relationship, as they're wizarding Avatars of the Executioner and the Loyal Servant, and need a boss.

[Anonymouswizard]

Between the two, the five failed notches are harder.

Though my headcanon is that ALL the wizards in Harry Potter are Unknown Armies characters of various stripes. Purebloods tend heavily to Adept given many chances to fail Unnatural checks in early age, while a lot of the people who were raised in muggle society tend towards Avatars. (Tom Riddle being an example of a muggleborn Adept. That... goes about as well as it does in UA.) Well-adjusted or sociopathic people turn are mundane, and most 'spells' are actually minor to significant rituals.

Spoiler: To Wit

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Harry got five Isolation notches growing up while embodying The Survivor growing up, and the magic that gave him his scar was a Major charge ritual, cashed in immediately to protect the child. As an Avatar AND Adept, he's a special kind of crazy, the chosen one. A Quiddich Viaturge/Survivor. Rational-mancer in MoR.

Hermione is an Avatar of the Scholar.

Ron had five Unnatural checks, no question, gaining Arachnaphobia as his madness. Obsession related to Wizard's Chess and his random magic has extended to plants and animals.

Neville, as the sanest and most reasonably well-adjusted individual, is actually neither an Avatar nor Adept, but does have an identity that gives him ritual casting.

Draco is clearly some kind of Adept of Cronymancy—he needs to keep Crabbe and Goyle around to use any magic. A symbiotic relationship, as they're wizarding Avatars of the Executioner and the Loyal Servant, and need a boss.

Oh, the five failed notches are so much harder (and not everybody who gets them makes the unconscious decision to snap into an Adept). In D&D the main thing stopping people from becoming wizards is the lack of the required education, in UA it's the lack of the crazy.

While that's a good theory, unfortunately it only works for UA2, UA3 made rituals more specific and the defined requirements to those we have just don't fit HP magic. Plus none of the rituals from before about World War 2 work in UA3.

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Plus Ron doesn't seem like an Agrimancer to me.

[Fable Wright]

While that's a good theory, unfortunately it only works for UA2, UA3 made rituals more specific and the defined requirements to those we have just don't fit HP magic. Plus none of the rituals from before about World War 2 work in UA3.

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Plus Ron doesn't seem like an Agrimancer to me.

You're really taking a demon's word at face value?

The one rule he was lying about was the statement that only one of those "rules" was a lie. All of them are fabrications to keep people away from developing the kinds of magical networks you see in Harry Potter.

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Ron isn't an agrimancer, though; he's a chess Adept whose unique brand of crazy has caused his wild magic domain to blend towards agrimancy.
Recall that the books are a very small subset of craziness.

[Anonymouswizard]

I suppose I should get back to this. This story just makes me so depressed, especially because I know I could be reading so much better stuff, I was doing it on the bus home!

Chapter Eight - Probably gonna be complaints about that bias mate
Hermoine seems to have changed as well. Wasn't she an annoying mixture of friendly and proud in Philospher's Stone? Another pointless character change, Hermoine knew how to talk with people, although she seemed to have a little bit of trouble connecting with them straight away (unlike Ron, who was more of the opposite).

Okay Hermoine, here's some advice. You walk up to somebody and say 'hello, how are you doing', or something else noncommital.

Seriously, Hermoine's coming off as a really bad and obnoxious autism stereotype. You know, the one that implies the lot of us have no sense of humour, no social skills, and no life (I mean look at me, I at least have the first two. If my conversation partner is completely oblivious and has the attention span of a goldfish suffering from ADD).

Oh, oh, I know this ones. Up, Down, Top, Bottom, Weneedsomenewwords, Willstrangeandcharmdo.

Congrats Hermoine, the teacher did what you asked for! It only happened to be the most annoying boy in the world.

Odds of badly shoehorned into the story relationship 8:3.

Really, Harry's mode of speech seems to be 'thirty year old who likes D&D and Adventure Games'. It's still annoying, and it makes me want to shove the kid into a school playground and see what bruises he can collect.

Odds rising to 13:2.

Really, do we need two of our main characters to have exactly the same personality? Look forward to my next work, Wooster and Wooster, where the somewhat imcompetent gentleman gets a new butler.

I really do feel like this is an infodump because the author has just realised that there might be somebody reading this who hasn't read Harry Potter yet. My advice to this hypothetical person: flee whule you can!

I feel bored out of my mind by this testing bit. Also odds are now at 15:6.

And immediately afterwards raise to 37:4. Also I think I've seen this proposition on the internet. Also Harry, is that what the kids are calling it these days? Much grander than the names we used, I can tell you that much.

Hermione's role in the story: badly thought out love interest and somebody to clean the test tubes.

Darn right Hermoine! That's the first intelligent thing anybody's said in this story.

Hermoine meet Marty Stu. You'll probably be starting a relationship with himn soon, the odds are still at 8:3. I mean even without the wordless wandlass magicus he's still a Marty Stuus.

Punch him in the face! Punch him in the face! I'm really starting to loathe this smugness.

I mean, I get the point of the demonstration, but still. Annoying.

God, our author just has to show how his Harry is so much clevererer than any canon character doesn't he. The suggestion is good, but I'm still not convinced it's worthwhile. Essentially if we assume we're at the back of the train we have to guage the potential saved time from a prefect being able to help with the lost time from them not being able to.

Ah, good, at the very least Harry's actions might be coming back to bite him.

It did more harm than good, harm than good. I really don't like this philosophy of Harry's.

Turned so scary Hermione? He's normally much scarier than this, you didn't have to sit through him shopping.

Finally this chapter is over. Maybe I'll be able to do Chapter 8 tomorrow and get through this at a decent clip.

[Silva Stormrage]

Okay maybe someone who has actual access to the first book might correct me. But I thought a big part of the first book's character development for Hermoine was her going from a "Overly follows the rules doesn't know how to interact with people properly goody two shoes" to someone who values friends over the rules? Or am I misremembering. It's been a while since I read the first HP book. So ya I don't see her characterization being that off. Methods gave Hermoine a better memory and made her slightly more shy... Thats not the character assassination you are portraying. Could you elaborate if I am misunderstanding you at all?

In the future you will see Hermoine and Harry diverge quite a lot in terms of personality. They both are "Knowledgable kids who like books and learning/science" but there is a wide divergence otherwise. Mainly Hermoine is the one with an actual moral compass as you noted in his chapter with the whole Longbottom "prank" situation. You are not meant to side with Harry's point of view on that situation.

As for the relationship thing if you want to know wether or not that occurs feel free to read this spoiler.

Spoiler: Relationship

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Nope, they don't end up together. Everyone THINKS they are in one and it's hinted that Hermoine has a crush on Harry near the very end of the series but it's brought up and then basically given the "Who cares it's not relevant" treatment in story. Frankly it's quite likely Harry is flat out asexual in this story.

Once again I feel like I have to reiterate that you are reading WAAAY too much into hating Harry and thinking the author wants to make him super clever and amazing. Trust me Hermoine fills more of a roll than "Potential love interest and someone who cleans out test tubes".

Like I get where some of the annoyance comes in but I feel you are coming in way over dramatically. Hopefully you will enjoy the series a bit more once Harry starts to come down from his "HAHAH I AM A GENIUS EVIL OVERLORD MUHAHAHAHAH" state.