Optimizing A Fighter/Clostiered Cleric Build

[Bartmanhomer]

Ok I want to optimized a Female Chaotic Good Lesser Drow Fighter/Cleric. I want my character to become a melee powerhouse plus healbot. This is her character sheet: https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1170862 Also I need very good prestige class for my multiclass build. Any advice anyone? I'm doing this for fun by the way just to let everyone know.

[dgnslyr]

If you're trying to optimize, your best bet is probably to drop Fighter entirely and play a straight Cleric; if you're worried about proficiencies, you could play a base cleric instead of a cloistered cleric, too, although it's up to you.

The usual way to make a good cleric is to use Divine Metamagic (DMM) and Metamagic: Persist, which at the cost of a load of Turn Undead charges, makes your self-buffs last all day. This can work with Divine Power, for example, to give yourself full BAB all day, since it wouldn't be 3.5 if you couldn't replace an entire class's abilities with one medium-level spell. In terms of domains, you'll want Undeath Domain just for the free Extra Turning bonus feat, and Travel Domain traded into the Travel Devotion feat, so you can move as a swift action and save your move action to make Full Attacks, again at the cost of Turn Undead attempts.

In terms of prestige classes, pretty much any prestige class that advances divine casting and doesn't lose caster levels is fine. Divine Oracle only requires a feat tax of Skill Focus(Knowledge) for entry, and has a lot of benefits for a character in melee without setting you back any caster levels.

[Bartmanhomer]

If you're trying to optimize, your best bet is probably to drop Fighter entirely and play a straight Cleric; if you're worried about proficiencies, you could play a base cleric instead of a cloistered cleric, too, although it's up to you.

The usual way to make a good cleric is to use Divine Metamagic (DMM) and Metamagic: Persist, which at the cost of a load of Turn Undead charges, makes your self-buffs last all day. This can work with Divine Power, for example, to give yourself full BAB all day, since it wouldn't be 3.5 if you couldn't replace an entire class's abilities with one medium-level spell. In terms of domains, you'll want Undeath Domain just for the free Extra Turning bonus feat, and Travel Domain traded into the Travel Devotion feat, so you can move as a swift action and save your move action to make Full Attacks, again at the cost of Turn Undead attempts.

In terms of prestige classes, pretty much any prestige class that advances divine casting and doesn't lose caster levels is fine. Divine Oracle only requires a feat tax of Skill Focus(Knowledge) for entry, and has a lot of benefits for a character in melee without setting you back any caster levels.

But I really don't want to drop the Fighter class and I want to stick with both classes.

[Aetis]

Maybe ask your DM to let you take the Ordained Champion Prestige Class

[Bartmanhomer]

Maybe ask your DM to let you take the Ordained Champion Prestige Class

I check the prestige class and I have to worship either Hextor or Heironeus. So that won't do.

[bean illus]

I check the prestige class and I have to worship either Hextor or Heironeus. So that won't do.

If your dm won't let you fluff Ordained Champion to whatever martial deity you want, then ... he doesn't want you to have fun. lol

Most/many cleric prcs have some fluff req. Amongst the list ...

Sacred exorcist, Church Inquisitor, paragnostic Apostle, contemplative, Seeker of the Misty Isle. ... Chameleon ...

How powerful do you want to be?

[Bartmanhomer]

If your dm won't let you fluff Ordained Champion to whatever martial deity you want, then ... he doesn't want you to have fun. lol

Most/many cleric prcs have some fluff req. Amongst the list ...

Sacred exorcist, Church Inquisitor, paragnostic Apostle, contemplative, Seeker of the Misty Isle. ... Chameleon ...

How powerful do you want to be?

Ok I can do ask the DM that.

[Nifft]

Ok I want to optimized

But I really don't want to drop the Fighter class

"Help me make my car fast, but I don't want to change the square wheels."

[Bartmanhomer]

If your dm won't let you fluff Ordained Champion to whatever martial deity you want, then ... he doesn't want you to have fun. lol

Most/many cleric prcs have some fluff req. Amongst the list ...

Sacred exorcist, Church Inquisitor, paragnostic Apostle, contemplative, Seeker of the Misty Isle. ... Chameleon ...

How powerful do you want to be?

What about other Fighter PrC?

[Saintheart]

What about other Fighter PrC?

No, because most dedicated Fighter PrCs out there will not let you advance caster levels, which is the most crucial element of the build. It's 3.5, Caster Levels Are King.

[Bartmanhomer]

No, because most dedicated Fighter PrCs out there will not let you advance caster levels, which is the most crucial element of the build. It's 3.5, Caster Levels Are King.

Ok fair enough then.

[bean illus]

"Help me make my car fast, but I don't want to change the square wheels."

Well the word optimize does mean 'very best'.

But very playable builds (for most tables) can include some fighter.

One of the best/simple ways to add 'fighter' to cleric is to lower your caster stat/save DCs, and pump physical stats/skill/feats and domains. It really can have an effect on the character of the play.

The 'only' reason to take "fighter" is for extra feats. So a good question might be; what do you want your fighter to do? Power attack? TWF? Trip?
Barbarian gets pounce.

Are you looking to get 9ths? Ordained champion loses 2 caster levels. Seeker loses 2?

Cleric6, paragnostic apostle3, ordained champion4, seeker7. It can be chopped up more, but it'll do 8th level spells. Squeeze in one level of fighter and barbarian and still get 7s.

[bean illus]

A fighter/cleric's goal is to get Divine Power (4th level spell) as fast as possible. If you aren't sure, go read it. Now.
An interesting looking build that doesn't do that minimum thing may find it much later.

Look here. You get 2 fighter and one barbarian level. ... TONS of feats quick.

1. Cloistered Cleric:*
Quicken Spell (flaw), DMM-Quicken (flaw),
Weapon Focus- L SWORD (domain), Strength (domain), Know* (domain)

2. Fighter1: Combat Reflexes
3. Cleric2: Extra Turning1
4. Fighter2: TWF
5. Barbarian1, lion: Pounce
6. Ordained Champion1: Extra Turning2
+1 domain2, Imp TWF, Oversized TWF
9. O Ch 4:

Here you're 5 caster levels behind, and you won't have divine power till 12th level.

Or ...

CCleric 5, Paragnostic Apostle 1, Ordained Champion 4, SotMI1

6 domains, two bonus fighter feats, only 2 CL behind, and divine power at 8th.

[Bartmanhomer]

A fighter/cleric's goal is to get Divine Power (4th level spell) as fast as possible. If you aren't sure, go read it. Now.
An interesting looking build that doesn't do that minimum thing may find it much later.

Look here. You get 2 fighter and one barbarian level. ... TONS of feats quick.

1. Cloistered Cleric:*
Quicken Spell (flaw), DMM-Quicken (flaw),
Weapon Focus- L SWORD (domain), Strength (domain), Know* (domain)

2. Fighter1: Combat Reflexes
3. Cleric2: Extra Turning1
4. Fighter2: TWF
5. Barbarian1, lion: Pounce
6. Ordained Champion1: Extra Turning2
+1 domain2, Imp TWF, Oversized TWF
9. O Ch 4:

Here you're 5 caster levels behind, and you won't have divine power till 12th level.

Or ...

CCleric 5, Paragnostic Apostle 1, Ordained Champion 4, SotMI1

6 domains, two bonus fighter feats, only 2 CL behind, and divine power at 8th.

Nice I love it.

[Ramza00]

So for flavor, I would think of Eilistraee as a goddess of dance (which she is) and in your Cleric mind Dance is Dancing but also good War is Dancing. This is the mindset that Ares was worshiped in Greek Mythology, he was the God of War and Dance and he learned Dancing before he learned War and he was a very playful person who gets sweeped up in the moment (by contrast Athena his rival, also goddess of War was very stoic and mocked Ares for letting his emotions control him.)

So if your DM merely allows you to take Elimister as an Ordained Champion as a houserule this is great. If your DM is uncomfortable with this point out how Heretic of the Faith feat allows you to swap another domain for another where you give a flavor reason (Elimister is the Goddess of Dance and to you Dance means War) and you swap out your least desired domain (in this case Good) for the War Domain. (Why swap out Good Domain? Well the first 3 domain spells are on the cleric list at the same level, of the 9 spells only the 4th level spell Holy Smite is not on the cleric list of the same level, and the +1 caster level to good spells is meh.) Taking Heretic of the Faith gives you the War Domain and since the War Domain also gives you the Weapon Focus feat you are now on your way to Ordained Champion Land. (OC Adapation land after the prestige class in the same book land.)

----

Furthermore taking a level of Barbarian for Pounce makes sense with such a flavor for your Cleric. It even makes more sense if you use UA and trade the standard Rage of Whirling Frenzy. Whirling Frenzy is an alternative rage ability that gives you an extra attack at the expense of not getting the con bonus with rage and the moral bonus. See here. You still keep your strength bonus with whirling frenzy just like rage has.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...WhirlingFrenzy

Aka your whirling frenzy is giving into the madness that sometimes occurs with dance. You normally try to fight a battle like a dance, but sometimes you just take it too far and in the process lose the precision you need to cast spells that requires precise hand movements (somatic components), words (verbal components), focus (divine focus brandished) etc.

[Maat Mons]

Okay, I know the bastard sword is Eilistraee's favored weapon. But are you sure you really want exotic weapon proficiency? You can wield it in two hands as a martial weapon.

If you're committed to emulating Eilistraee equipment-wise, the second level of Moon-Warded Ranger (Dragon 340, p55) lets you add your wisdom bonus to AC when wearing light armor or no armor. And it kind of fits, what with Eilistraee being the moon-goddess of the ... *looks it up* Dark Seldarine ... pantheon.

If you do go the Moon-Warded Ranger route, I'd suggest that be instead of any fighter levels.

As for prestige classes, there's nothing wrong with more Cleric levels.

[bean illus]

A fighter/cleric's goal is to get Divine Power ...

Look here. You get 2 fighter and one barbarian level. ... TONS of feats quick.

1. Cloistered Cleric: OPEN
Quicken Spell (flaw), DMM-Quicken (flaw),
Weapon Focus- L SWORD (domain), Strength (domain), Know* (domain)

2. Fighter1: Combat Reflexes
3. Cleric2: Extra Turning1
4. Fighter2: TWF
5. Barbarian1, lion: Pounce
6. Ordained Champion1: Extra Turning2
+1 domain2, Imp TWF, Oversized TWF
9. O Ch 4:

Here you're 5 caster levels behind, and you won't have divine power till 12th level.

Or ...

CCleric 5, Paragnostic Apostle 1, Ordained Champion 4, SotMI1

6 domains, two bonus fighter feats, only 2 CL behind, and divine power at 8th.

Nice I love it.

lol, which one? I gave opposing examples? (I advise the second.

... Eilistraee ... lets you add your wisdom bonus to AC when wearing light armor or no armor.

We may be looking at a low DC build, to create a "fighter" feel by using mostly buffs / etc.

Bartman ...
1. What ability stats would you like primary? Wis>str>..., wis>dex> ..., str>cha>wis?
2. What level of cheese are you looking for? Will it include high level play with optimized wizard 20 at the table?

You may be able to make do with 6-7th level spells, which could free 2-5 levels for high level ToB maneuvers.
- Or go shopping for class abilities. Once you have extended divine power you can abandon bab entirely.

[Bartmanhomer]

lol, which one? I gave opposing examples? (I advise the second.



We may be looking at a low DC build, to create a "fighter" feel by using mostly buffs / etc.

Bartman ...
1. What ability stats would you like primary? Wis>str>..., wis>dex> ..., str>cha>wis?
2. What level of cheese are you looking for? Will it include high level play with optimized wizard 20 at the table?

You may be able to make do with 6-7th level spells, which could free 2-5 levels for high level ToB maneuvers.
- Or go shopping for class abilities. Once you have extended divine power you can abandon bab entirely.

The first one sound good but not optimized worthy. I like the second one better because it's optimized worthy. The primary ability stats that I'm focusing is Strength and Wisdom.

[dgnslyr]

I guess it depends what you want to do with your character? Or more specifically, what you want to accomplish with your fighter levels.

The mountain of bonus feats from fighter are good for rushing through feat trees like Shock Trooper and anything Combat Reflexes-related, for example, if you're specifically trying to build an Ubercharger or a spiked chain trip fighter. On the other hand, if your fighter-related goals are more general, like Power Attacking hard, making iterative attacks, and dealing good melee damage, then you're probably better served by having more Cleric levels so you'll gain more spells more quickly.

As a cleric, starting at 7th level, you can cast (and persist) Divine Power, which instantly negates all the BAB you lost from taking cleric levels. By 9th level, you can persist Righteous Might on yourself to enlarge yourself and your weapon die for the entire day; it's also the level where you can naturally cast a Persisted Divine Favor for +3 to hit and damage. On the other side, your average fighter bonus feats are typically going to be a conditional +1 to hit or damage on one thing or another.

Your cleric levels give you cleric spells that make up for your lost fighter BAB and feats, but your fighter levels are never going to give you back your lost caster levels.

Really, if your goal is to be a cleric that fights, then your best bet is to play straight cleric and pick up Persistent Spell, DMM: Persistent Spell, and as many Extra Turnings as you can, after the obligatory Power Attack, since there's not a lot that improves a cleric's fighting ability more than getting more cleric levels.

It's not like your character sheet exists in game. It's a fiction that exists for you and your play group, outside the world, and nobody in-setting will know otherwise.

[bean illus]

The first one sound good but not optimized worthy. I like the second one better because it's optimized worthy. The primary ability stats that I'm focusing is Strength and Wisdom.

I looked at your spread. Looks fun.

1. CCleric, power attack,
ewp-bastard, good domain, know domain
3. CCleric 3, combat reflexes
5. Ordained Champion 1-e5, war domain,
TWF, Oversized TWF (lose good and know powers)
6. O Champion 2, quicken spell
7. Paragnostic Apostle 1,
glory domain-TU2
9. O Champion 4, dmm quicken
10. SotMI 1, travel domain devotion
12. Paragnostic 3, extra TU3,
Panning domain (extend)
13. 8 open levels
15. dmm extend

Just a sketch ...

I just edited to streamline the build. It's better.

[Bartmanhomer]

What about a Warblade/Cleric build. Will that change anything or no?

[Maat Mons]

What about a Warblade/Cleric build. Will that change anything or no?

Instead of asking your DM to adapt Ordained Champion to Eilistraee, you'll be asking your DM to adapt Ruby Knight Vindicator to Eilistraee.

Nah, just kidding. You'll be asking for both.

[Bartmanhomer]

Instead of asking your DM to adapt Ordained Champion to Eilistraee, you'll be asking your DM to adapt Ruby Knight Vindicator to Eilistraee.

Nah, just kidding. You'll be asking for both.

What's the Ruby Knight Vindicator? I'm curious.

[dgnslyr]

What's the Ruby Knight Vindicator? I'm curious.

It's a Crusader/divine caster hybrid Prestige Class from Tome of Battle. The gist of Tome of Battle is about giving martial characters more diverse options that aren't feats, in the form of Maneuvers learned by Martial Adepts; maneuvers are a bit like spells, but generally non-magical and recharge every encounter or sooner, and their effects range from offensive to defensive to utility. In addition to full Initiator, full BAB, and 8/10 Divine Caster progression, it gives you additional ways to spend your Turn Undead attempts. Most notably, at higher levels you can burn a TU attempt to gain an extra Swift Action, which is especially relevant for Martial Adepts who have a lot of ways to use their Swift Action.

Since the main limiting factor for RKV entry is the 8 ranks in Knowledge: Religion, you can get your first level in RKV at level 6 at the soonest, which leaves 5 levels before then. The strongest RKV entry is probably Cleric 4/Crusader 1, since it gives you the most caster levels, but if you'd rather have less spells and more maneuvers, then Cleric 2/Crusader 3 is also an option. Note that non-Initiator levels advance your Initiator Level (equivalent to Caster Level) at 1/2 IL per level, but non-caster levels don't advance your Caster Level at all. Also, because non-Initiator levels count for half, you typically want to have an even number of non-Initiator class levels.

[Bartmanhomer]

It's a Crusader/divine caster hybrid Prestige Class from Tome of Battle. The gist of Tome of Battle is about giving martial characters more diverse options that aren't feats, in the form of Maneuvers learned by Martial Adepts; maneuvers are a bit like spells, but generally non-magical and recharge every encounter or sooner, and their effects range from offensive to defensive to utility. In addition to full Initiator, full BAB, and 8/10 Divine Caster progression, it gives you additional ways to spend your Turn Undead attempts. Most notably, at higher levels you can burn a TU attempt to gain an extra Swift Action, which is especially relevant for Martial Adepts who have a lot of ways to use their Swift Action.

Since the main limiting factor for RKV entry is the 8 ranks in Knowledge: Religion, you can get your first level in RKV at level 6 at the soonest, which leaves 5 levels before then. The strongest RKV entry is probably Cleric 4/Crusader 1, since it gives you the most caster levels, but if you'd rather have less spells and more maneuvers, then Cleric 2/Crusader 3 is also an option. Note that non-Initiator levels advance your Initiator Level (equivalent to Caster Level) at 1/2 IL per level, but non-caster levels don't advance your Caster Level at all. Also, because non-Initiator levels count for half, you typically want to have an even number of non-Initiator class levels.

Nice. So it's a good build I see.

[Maat Mons]

Note that, while Ruby Knight Vindicator is definitely geared towards Crusaders, it's possible to get in with Warblade or Swordsage instead. You just have to spend two feats to get the Devoted Spirit maneuver and stance required.

Of course, since Ruby Knight Vindicator itself gives you maneuvers and stances from Devoted Spirit, you could arguably retrain both of those feats later without losing any class features.

[weckar]

Lesser drow don't tend to make very good martial types. How stuck are you on that race? Anything that gives Powerful Build will probably serve you better as it unlocks some good tactical feats.

[The Insanity]

Lesser drow don't tend to make very good martial types. How stuck are you on that race? Anything that gives Powerful Build will probably serve you better as it unlocks some good tactical feats.

He loves lesser drow.

But I really don't want to drop the Fighter class

Why?