Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

[LansXero]

I know. But pretty much everything in the Space Marine codex can be taken as Blood Angels or Dark Angels. Also, even if the other Space Marine factions had access to those units, Blood Angels and Dark Angels still have much better faction traits.

Dunno, White Scar Black Knights or Ravenwing stuff could work. Talonmasters make the IF trait redundant, so there is that; but fall-back-and-shoot is not a bad trait on itself, and considering how many reroll 1s SMs get, 'stand still and rr1s' isnt all that great. If you give 'weapons from the dark age' to all space marines, crimson fists with their new specialist detachment get much better, and so do Raven Guard hellblasters, specially if they also get a Darkshroud for eldar-lite levels of -1 stacking.

[Cheesegear]

I understand this sentence, but part of me still wants to say: 'those are all Space Marines.'

Explain this then...

Q: Is a Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or
Deathwatch Detachment also a Space Marines Detachment?
A: No.

...At best, you can say that they are all Astartes - which they are.
However, GW has explicitly said what a Space Marine is, and anything outside of the Space Marine Codex, isn't.

Maybe I should have said 'Codex Marines'? But with Vigilus out, 'Space Marines' means something new, now. At least as far as tabletop discussions are concerned.

On a different note, how's the Mathhammer for Devastator Centurions?

Better than Aggressors. Except that Aggressors can Melee.
Bring Storm of Fire, and Guilliman. And a Banner. Maybe an Apothecary.

I know. But pretty much everything in the Space Marine codex can be taken as Blood Angels or Dark Angels. Also, even if the other Space Marine factions had access to those units, Blood Angels and Dark Angels still have much better faction traits.

...And that's a big problem. One of the...Issues...With a multiple <Sub-Faction> Codex, is that you lose ~half a page, if not more, to Stratagems that your <Sub-Faction> literally can't use. Now, this isn't a case of 'This is bad so you probably shouldn't use it anyway' ...I've used Orbital Strike a few times. It's incredibly useful...Rarely. However, even if you run two, maybe three different Sub-Factions, you'll still lose out on a few Stratagems that you can never use. Even then, I'd really like to give the Ultramarines Warlord Trait to my Imperial Fists...Nope. Can I make so I get the Raven Guard Warlord Trait onto my Black Templars Warlord? Speaking of Black Templars...How come my BT Captain can't have The Sanctic Halo? That would be super useful.

Then Blood Angels, Dark Angels, etc. come out. They have almost all of the same units that their parent Codex does. But every single Stratagem or ability is dedicated to a single Faction, which means no wasted page space, which means that due to GW's 'throw everything at the wall' approach, the more page space they get to a single idea, the more chance there is of them accidentally writing something good. There's some bulls* about Successor Chapters only taking specific Relics...But the only model that really affects, is Gabriel Seth.

In effect, with the exception of Guilliman + Standard of the Emperor Ascendant +/- Storm of Fire; Dark Angels and Blood Angels are effectively Space Marines+

[9mm]

So how about them White Dwarf leaks?

Don't really play assassins, but looks reasonable?

[Forum Explorer]

Explain this then...



...At best, you can say that they are all Astartes - which they are.
However, GW has explicitly said what a Space Marine is, and anything outside of the Space Marine Codex, isn't.

Maybe I should have said 'Codex Marines'? But with Vigilus out, 'Space Marines' means something new, now. At least as far as tabletop discussions are concerned.



Better than Aggressors. Except that Aggressors can Melee.
Bring Storm of Fire, and Guilliman. And a Banner. Maybe an Apothecary.



...And that's a big problem. One of the...Issues...With a multiple <Sub-Faction> Codex, is that you lose ~half a page, if not more, to Stratagems that your <Sub-Faction> literally can't use. Now, this isn't a case of 'This is bad so you probably shouldn't use it anyway' ...I've used Orbital Strike a few times. It's incredibly useful...Rarely. However, even if you run two, maybe three different Sub-Factions, you'll still lose out on a few Stratagems that you can never use. Even then, I'd really like to give the Ultramarines Warlord Trait to my Imperial Fists...Nope. Can I make so I get the Raven Guard Warlord Trait onto my Black Templars Warlord? Speaking of Black Templars...How come my BT Captain can't have The Sanctic Halo? That would be super useful.

Then Blood Angels, Dark Angels, etc. come out. They have almost all of the same units that their parent Codex does. But every single Stratagem or ability is dedicated to a single Faction, which means no wasted page space, which means that due to GW's 'throw everything at the wall' approach, the more page space they get to a single idea, the more chance there is of them accidentally writing something good. There's some bulls* about Successor Chapters only taking specific Relics...But the only model that really affects, is Gabriel Seth.

In effect, with the exception of Guilliman + Standard of the Emperor Ascendant +/- Storm of Fire; Dark Angels and Blood Angels are effectively Space Marines+

That is hilarious.


It'd be interesting to see them. I haven't for a long time. Basically since 8th started really.


I agree. It's actually one of my problems with the Space Marine codex is that it's too full. They've got so many options that some are doing the exact same job, and thus are almost completely redundant. Having so many factions kinda does the same thing.

[Blackhawk748]

So how about them White Dwarf leaks?

Don't really play assassins, but looks reasonable?

"Pay 1 Cp to swap Assassins" seems useful for list tailoring, the others seem ok. The one that lets you get CPs back seems good if you set that up reliably.

[bluntpencil]

"Pay 1 Cp to swap Assassins" seems useful for list tailoring, the others seem ok.

It also allows for Rule of Four, as opposed to Three. Take three Vindicares, leave 85 points for reinforcements. Pop that strat, four Vindicares.

Also, the Callidus strat, extending their special ability, may be good for draining CP-thirsty opponents early-game.

Personally, though, I think it's all about the Vindicares - I can see them popping Imperial Guard Priests and Officers very reliably, leaving them without their buffs after a couple of turns.

[Cheesegear]

It also allows for Rule of Four, as opposed to Three. Take three Vindicares, leave 85 points for reinforcements. Pop that strat, four Vindicares.

Except that Vindicares are still pretty much the worst and why would you do that? But yeah...I get you're saying, and that's exactly how it works.
The only reason to take one Vindicare is because it deals Mortal Wounds to <Vehicles> and <Monsters>.

Callidus Assassins remain the best Assassins, in general. Show up <7" away. Charge. Kill a Character (ideally) and get CPs back.
I notice that GW didn't change that Callidus' don't have to be on the table for Reign of Confusion to work. Supreme Deception is ****ing amazing.

I notice that GW didn't change that Culexuses change your WS and BS to 6, instead of 'only hit on a unmodified 6'. Which means that if your model has -1 to hit for any reason (Advance and shoot with Assault weapons, move and shoot with Heavy weapons, Thunder Hammers, etc.) the Culexus literally can't be hit. Which will still be a thing. It's always fun seeing a Culexus just drop a Smash Captain because the Captain can only hit on 7s - which isn't a thing.

Personally, though, I think it's all about the Vindicares - I can see them popping Imperial Guard Priests and Officers very reliably

Priests, maybe. Officers? Can Vindicares see through walls? Oathbreakers are strong because they see through walls, not just because they can target Characters.

[Requizen]

Vanguard/Rangers are borderline useless in Kill Team a lot of the time. Unless you get a really favorable map. Stick to Ruststalkers/Infiltrators.

Maybe grab one or two, but Ruststalkers and Infiltrators are amazing.

I was playing Kill Team only last night and we had pretty much this same discussion. There general consensus is that Ad.Mech are a Glass Cannon team with a preference for shooting, as opposed to GSC who are Glass Cannons for CQC.

Ad.Mech's close combat units are... okay. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a Trap, but 'okay' isn't really good enough to build a battle plan around, especially not when their long ranged stuff is significantly better than average. If you can take a couple of 'brick' units to tie up your opponent's CQC experts rather than give them free reign to rampage through your warband that's decent, but ideally you should be falling back and then shooting them in the face.
And then cry when you're playing Arena, unable to LoS or Overwatch through tight corridors and have to try and take an objective on the other side of the board.

Hmmmm /thinking

Well I think I'll snag a couple of both and see what happens.

[Cheesegear]

'Horde'
Skitarii Vanguard (x10) - 90 Points
Vanguard Alpha - 10 Points

100 Points

Melee Blender
Sicarian Infiltrators (x4); Chordclaws & Razors - 60 Points
Ruststalker Princeps; Chordclaw & Blades - 16 Points
Infiltrator Princeps; Flechette Blaster & Taser Goad - 16 Points

92 Points

Anti-Marine
Ranger Gunners (x3); Arc Rifle, Plasma Calivers (x2) - 36 Points
Skitarii Vanguard; Enhanced Data-Tether - 14 Points
Vanguard Gunners (x3); Plasma Calivers (x3) - 39 Points
Vanguard Alpha - 10 Points

99 Points

[bluntpencil]

Am I the only one that's disappointed that there are no Vanus and Venenum stratagems?

[Wraith]

Am I the only one that's disappointed that there are no Vanus and Venenum stratagems?

I don't think that Venenum is a big loss. They do poisoned attacks - in the grand scheme of things that's not hugely interesting, and what they might do mechanically - ignore high Toughness or ignore saves - is already done by the other Assassins.

Vanus would be really interesting though, in an edition where CPs are so hugely important. An Assassin whose gimmick is to sabotage your opponent's stratagems or to reduce/manipulate their CPs - killing them with "misinformation" as such - would be something that I haven't seen before and yet be worthwhile taking.

[LeSwordfish]

I don't think that Venenum is a big loss. They do poisoned attacks - in the grand scheme of things that's not hugely interesting, and what they might do mechanically - ignore high Toughness or ignore saves - is already done by the other Assassins.

Vanus would be really interesting though, in an edition where CPs are so hugely important. An Assassin whose gimmick is to sabotage your opponent's stratagems or to reduce/manipulate their CPs - killing them with "misinformation" as such - would be something that I haven't seen before and yet be worthwhile taking.

The other day i thought of how fun it would be to have a character/stratagem/ability that forced your opponent to play one of their stratagems - from command-point-rerolling a successful roll to forcing them to use Honour The Chapter on a mook rather than their Captain. Very powerful of course, but a lot of fun.

[Cheesegear]

Vanus would be really interesting though, in an edition where CPs are so hugely important. An Assassin whose gimmick is to sabotage your opponent's stratagems or to reduce/manipulate their CPs - killing them with "misinformation" as such - would be something that I haven't seen before and yet be worthwhile taking.

You mean exactly like a Callidus does, and that specific thing you want to see is exactly what makes a Callidus so good?

[Brookshw]

An Assassin whose gimmick is to sabotage your opponent's stratagems or to reduce/manipulate their CPs - killing them with "misinformation" as such - would be something that I haven't seen before and yet be worthwhile taking.

So, an Imperium Agent of Vect

[Wraith]

You mean exactly like a Callidus does, and that specific thing you want to see is exactly what makes a Callidus so good?

More so - Callidus is a close combat machine who has a side-line in messing with CPs. I want a guy whose main idea is just that - make your opponent's cost more, makes yours cost less, "Deny The Witch" them entirely under certain circumstances, or even other effects like making allied units count as being in cover when being shot at, or something.

Just anything that isn't a beatstick with a powerful ability attached to it.

[The Patterner]

More so - Callidus is a close combat machine who has a side-line in messing with CPs. I want a guy whose main idea is just that - make your opponent's cost more, makes yours cost less, "Deny The Witch" them entirely under certain circumstances, or even other effects like making allied units count as being in cover when being shot at, or something.

Just anything that isn't a beatstick with a powerful ability attached to it.

I'd love something like that, and add that they have a really bad statline, but they have some form of defensive mechanic if they remain still.

Just look at the number of character types GSC got now, it can be done.

[Cheesegear]

I want a guy whose main idea is just that - make your opponent's cost more, makes yours cost less, "Deny The Witch" them entirely under certain circumstances

So, yeah. You're just asking for Agents of Vect, which GW was decided it was so broken that it was worth 4 CPs. ...But then GSC was printed before FAQ 2, so GW can't change it now without being done for false advertising or something, so GSC isn't going to be changed for another two months, possibly even six. Despite knowing for a fact that by the time it was released, it was already broken during the advertising stage.

But making your own Stratagems cost less CPs is a huge deal. If you want to introduce discounted Stratagems to the meta - especially under the <Imperium> tag - you're insane.

Just anything that isn't a beatstick with a powerful ability attached to it.

The problem is that due to the way that an Assassin (singular) works now, they all have to cost 85 Points.

If there is an Assassin that I could take, that makes my Stratagems cost less CPs...Especially as an Imperium player with access to Guard Battalions, and extremely CP-intensive Factions like Blood Angels and Imperial Knights...There are no other Assassins. You just annihilated every single Assassin out of the game because the only one that'd be worth anything is the one that force multiplies your entire army and doesn't take a slot.

[Renegade Paladin]

So... Commissar Severina Raine has a relic power sword that's actively worse than a regular power sword. And a special ability that essentially demands she be in assault.

[YossarianLives]

So... Commissar Severina Raine has a relic power sword that's actively worse than a regular power sword. And a special ability that essentially demands she be in assault.

I'm pretty sure that's supposed to be a regular sword, not a power sword. If you look at the model and artwork there's no cables or glowy-bits anywhere on it.

But, yeah. I know I wasn't expecting the model's rules to be any good. I'm gonna do some minor conversion work and run her as a generic Lord Commissar.

[Blackhawk748]

So... Commissar Severina Raine has a relic power sword that's actively worse than a regular power sword. And a special ability that essentially demands she be in assault.

At least her pistol is nice, but ya, you have a named sword and its just garbage. Like, make it D2 or something.

At least her model looks nice.

[Cheesegear]

"We would like to sell a model at twice the price of the easily convertible normal model. But also she's arguably worse."
Cool. I hate it. If you're going to say that female models don't need a noticeable chest, then I can convert a ****-ton of my own models. Like all those totally useless Commissars that we get for basically free in SC! boxes.
"You hate women, confirmed."

It actually bothers me that people will actually buy the over-priced model just to convert it... Despite cheaper options for the same conversion being available.

If she was half the price... But she's not.

Posted from phone.

[LudDavenport]

Brood brothers has some weird interactions. Like, orders. Since Brood Brothers replaces the <Regiment> keyword in a similar way to a normal regiment, can brood brothers officers give orders to GSC Brood Brothers units?

Since Brood Brothers HWTs and AM HWTs have different data slates, it seems like GSC can bring 6xHWTs... which seems pretty great. Especially given you can have one 3xlascannon BB HWT out in the open safely for 2cp/turn. If said unit is also rr 1s to hit, sounds good.

I wonder if the mortar cost increase is a typo, hints at a coming nerf, or for some reason a random GSC tax.


Assuming You can order GSC Brood Brothers, I made up a list.

Spoiler: GSC BB 2k List

Show

Rusted Claw Auxiliary Support Detachment (-1CP)
Atalan Jakals(x5); Demo Charges - 75 points

Four Armed Emperor Brigade (+12CPs) [Grandsire's Gifts (-1CP)]
(W) Patriarch; [Amulet of the Voidwyrm] - 125 points Born Survivor;Mental Onslaught, Might From Beyond
(BC) Magus; Familiar [The Crouchling] - 83 points Inscrutable Cunning; Mass Hypnosis, Mind Control, Psionic Blast
(BC) Primus -75 points Alien Majesty

Acolyte Hybrids - 35 points
Acolyte Hybrids - 35 points
Acolyte Hybrids - 35 points
Acolyte Hybrids - 35 points
Acolyte Hybrids - 35 points
Acolyte Hybrids - 35 points

Calmavus - 55 points
Nexos - 50 points
Aberrants(x10); Power Hammers - 320 points
Purestrain Genestealers(x20) - 300 points

Cult Scout Sentinel; Heavy Flamer - 44 points
Cult Scout Sentinel; Heavy Flamer - 44 points
Cult Scout Sentinel; Heavy Flamer - 44 points

Brood Brothers Heavy Weapons Squad; Lascannons - 78 points
Brood Brothers Heavy Weapons Squad; Heavy Bolters - 41 points
Brood Brothers Heavy Weapons Squad; 2x Heavy Bolters, Mortar - 40 points

Brood Brothers Spearhead (+1CP)
Company Commander - 30 points
Company Commander - 30 points

Platoon Commander - 20 points
Platoon Commander - 20 points

Heavy Weapons Team; Mortars - 33 points
Heavy Weapons Team; Mortars - 33 points
Heavy Weapons Team; Mortars - 33 points
Wverns(x2) - 206 points

Spoiler: vague tactics

Show

2 bombs for turn 2+, or defensive deployment turn 1 if going second. Large amount of anti-horde ranged fire to clear screens for turn 2-3 bombs charging in. Wouldn't really count the Demo charge delivery service as a bomb, just another deepstrike threat to any vehicles/monsters.

Patriarch takes in the genestealers, leading the charge to deny overwatch. Hopefully he can pop his buff on the stealers, and they eat prettymuch anything on the charge.
Primus+magus bring in the abbarrents, hopefully getting off Mass Hypnosis to deny overwatch. They can kill a knight on the charge, and do similar things to heavy threats.
Clamavus comes in with whichever bomb needs higher odds of a charge working. Also with the patriarch if there is a good target for mental onslaught.

HWTs/CCs/PTs/Wyverns/Nexos camp in the deployment zone hopefully on objectives, shooting at chaff. Sents try to contest the midfield slightly, probably just die turn 1. Troops pop up were necessary, possibly some in the deployment zone to help fill space.

Spoiler: Things I would like others thoughts on

Show

So, right now the list is CRAZY points tight. You might notice one BB HWT having a mortar... yeah I needed 1 point.
I guess dropping a platoon commander might be correct? The other flex option is dropping the Nexos, but 1CP/round seems like a big deal given how
CP hungry GSC is. 15 might get me to turn 3, if I don't pop agents of vect too often.

Not super happy with having all the troops as 5 mans. Again points were an issue, and 35 is a very nice price. Would like some guardsmen to fill out the deployment zone though... *shrug*

I guess another option to cut is reducing the las cannon BB HWT to Heavy Bolters. It just seems nice to have the lascannon option there, and they are very cheap.

[Cheesegear]

...AND Raine is RESIN, too.

Posted from phone.

[Blackhawk748]

...AND Raine is RESIN, too.

Posted from phone.

And I change my opinion. It sucks now.

[LansXero]

...AND Raine is RESIN, too.

Posted from phone.

Its also sold-out. GW is taking special orders from trade range / stockists to get more produced.

[bluntpencil]

"We would like to sell a model at twice the price of the easily convertible normal model. But also she's arguably worse."
Cool. I hate it. If you're going to say that female models don't need a noticeable chest, then I can convert a ****-ton of my own models. Like all those totally useless Commissars that we get for basically free in SC! boxes.
"You hate women, confirmed."

It actually bothers me that people will actually buy the over-priced model just to convert it... Despite cheaper options for the same conversion being available.

If she was half the price... But she's not.

Posted from phone.

Well, there's an upshot there - it means that precedent has been set for less sexualised female miniatures, making them easier for us to convert, since they won't stand out any more. Just get some female heads from third party producers, and stick them on Cadians etc etc. Nice.

[LeSwordfish]

Well, there's an upshot there - it means that precedent has been set for less sexualised female miniatures, making them easier for us to convert, since they won't stand out any more. Just get some female heads from third party producers, and stick them on Cadians etc etc. Nice.

Another interesting precedent is the stormcast heads that Forge World now do. A couple of boxes of generic bare heads for imperial guard would mean a lot to some people.

[Avaris]

Its also sold-out. GW is taking special orders from trade range / stockists to get more produced.

I’m not sure that’s quite accurate? they haven’t released it on the web store at all yet, so it’s not possible for it to be sold out? My understanding is that they’re doing it in a somewhat similar way to ‘on demand’ models: they don’t know how popular it will be, so are giving independent stockists the opportunity to make preorders and will produce to meet that demand.

[Cheesegear]

Its also sold-out. GW is taking special orders from trade range / stockists to get more produced.

Reminds me of the Noise Marine.
Nice model.
Expensive and unusable.
Don't buy it.

"OMG U GAIZ WE SOLD OUT." Well yeah. If you only send 3 to a store of course you will.

Posted from phone.

[Avaris]

Reminds me of the Noise Marine.
Nice model.
Expensive and unusable.
Don't buy it.

"OMG U GAIZ WE SOLD OUT." Well yeah. If you only send 3 to a store of course you will.

Posted from phone.

I suspect they’re realising that they have absolutely no idea how well some products will do. Similar to when MtG had a huge amount of unsold unhinged they had to get rid of due to overprinting, if GW had special edition models in the past that sold poorly they’ll be cautious with the production for stuff like the Noise Marine. So in this case, they’re trying a new model which is not quite ‘make to demand’ in order to have an accurate read on how well it will sell. I suspect this model is seen as a risk by some being female and linked into a brand new book series, with interesting but not game-breaking rules.

Of course, getting an idea of how well things should sell is something they should have worked out decades ago, but given how terrible GW corporate practices were until recently I’m not surprised they don’t have an accurate read on it.