Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

[Avaris]

By the sounds of it, it's rules for Team Based "multi-player" battles. What in 40k would be my "army" would in Apocalypse be a "Detachment" and the book tells us how me and my 3 allies work together in order to fight you and your allies.

I like the idea that has been described in the article though - damage is resolved at the end of the turn, so everyone always gets to act without being alpha-striked into obsolescence in turn 1. Given that the example also describes using a Reaver Titan I wouldn't be surprised if they reintroduce D-strength weapons, or at least an 8th Edition equivalent.
I also wonder how it will work without templates for macroweapons - that was a key point of titans being able to fire on entire board sections rather than just one guy, but I'll be quite surprised if they too are brought back.

I believe it’s explicitly a new system. It’s not 8th ed for multiplayer, it’s entirely new, with no cross over other than the models. See, for example, the prominent d12s in photos of Apocalypse, and that they’re saying there is never a long wait until doing stuff, suggesting an integrated turn structure.

[Wraith]

I believe it’s explicitly a new system. It’s not 8th ed for multiplayer, it’s entirely new, with no cross over other than the models. See, for example, the prominent d12s in photos of Apocalypse, and that they’re saying there is never a long wait until doing stuff, suggesting an integrated turn structure.

...Well damn, I never even noticed the dice. Using none-d6's, something that GW haven't done outside of Blood Bowl since Second Edition, is very unexpected.

In unrelated news, I'm not even interested in 30k but the new Dark Angels are pretty sexy. I love the baroque armour and how they have robes/cloaks wrapped around their necks, rather than just hanging off a backpack.

[Cheesegear]

Warhammer Fest Weekend

Horus Heresy 9; Dark Angels vs. Night Lords & Dark Mechanicum:
AFAIC, 30K died two years ago during 40K's transfer to 8th Ed. This is way too little, too late.

Chaos Bane...Cool? We're remaking Inquisitor; Martyr but with an AoS hat. Who cares? Keep playing Diablo III or Path of Exile.
GW is still pushing Champions for some reason, which upsets me. Buy physical cards to get access to digital cards!

If you like things collecting dust on your shelf, Bandai is doing a thing!

New edition of WHFRP. Still waiting on a Mortal Realms edition...Honestly, I just want to play Spelljammer again, and having a flying Kharadron ship flying through Realmgates is all I want to do...Okay, you got me...The Weatherlight is one of the coolest things I read about as a kid and its always stuck with me.
...WHFRP doesn't have Kharadrons. 'Nuff said.
(The cool fluff Kharadrons, that is. Tabletop Kharadrons are garbage and why I can't get into AoS)
(Also, there's so much cool **** going on in the fluff for M;tG, but no-one cares 'cause it has nothing to do with the game...Almost like 40K.
Avengers: Endgame; The is the crossover event of a lifetime.
The Weatherlight Saga; Am I a joke to you?)

Shirts!

Beastmen expansion for Vermintide. Nice!

Underworlds Online. Yes! Kill the dead tree version of the game. Underworlds is a game that almost demands an online version. ****! I want to get rid of my M;tG longboxes so bad. But then GW introduces a game with a ****-ton of cards and damn. Underworlds is a good game, but their business model is ****ed. Make it online, and it solves every problem I have with the game.

John French bails on Warhammer Fest (due to illness), but it's okay. You can pay GW more money to see him at the next event.

Scouring of the Shire...lol. The thing that never even happened in the movies. Nice!

Warcry feels like a new Underworlds, because they've killed UW by announcing an online client.

Halflings for Blood Bowl. Nice conversion bases for D&D models.

Necromunda stuff.
Adeptus Titanicus stuff.

...Bunch of stuff for 30K White Scars I don't care about.

Apocalypse 8th Ed. seems totally lame.

The Repulsor gets a new turret!

The Adeptus Mechanicus Transport looks awful.
The AdMech gets a Predator that looks...Okay. I guess.

Codex: Chaos Knights is finally going to be a thing.

Turns out painting single-coloured models is too hard for babies. So GW made a new undercoat designed for dipping your models in a thicker glaze.

[Destro_Yersul]

If you like things collecting dust on your shelf, Bandai is doing a thing!

I do like things collecting dust on my shelves. Probably gonna get me one of those things.

New edition of WHFRP. Still waiting on a Mortal Realms edition...Honestly, I just want to play Spelljammer again, and having a flying Kharadron ship flying through Realmgates is all I want to do...Okay, you got me...The Weatherlight is one of the coolest things I read about as a kid and its always stuck with me.
...WHFRP doesn't have Kharadrons. 'Nuff said.
(The cool fluff Kharadrons, that is. Tabletop Kharadrons are garbage and why I can't get into AoS)

KO are one of the last few AoS battletomes that haven't been updated yet, I think. They'll probably get an overhaul soon-ish.

Scouring of the Shire...lol. The thing that never even happened in the movies. Nice!

Still my biggest beef with those movies.

[Renegade Paladin]

Apocalypse 8th Ed. seems totally lame.

We don't know enough to say that. I'm cautiously optimistic about the literal only thing of substance they told us; resolving damage at the end of the battle round might be cumbersome depending on the system they use to do it, but the alpha strike problem has always been the major downfall of Apocalypse and at least it neatly sidesteps that.

[Cheesegear]

We don't know enough to say that. I'm cautiously optimistic about the literal only thing of substance they told us...

...

Detachments move in unison to perform devastating assaults, and as a Warmaster commanding an apocalyptic army, you’ll be making decisions that affect the lives of hundreds of your miniatures at a time.

Feels like Epic. Except, you know, paying 40K-scale amounts of currency to build your army.


I guess the real kicker for what makes or breaks Apocalypse for me, is what the Apocalypse Detachments are. I hate the existing Specialist Detachments.

[LansXero]

Warhammer Fest Weekend
Horus Heresy 9; Dark Angels vs. Night Lords & Dark Mechanicum:
AFAIC, 30K died two years ago during 40K's transfer to 8th Ed. This is way too little, too late.

Those models look so great though. If it wasnt FW priced, they would be lovely for 40k.

GW is still pushing Champions for some reason, which upsets me. Buy physical cards to get access to digital cards!

If it hasnt taken off yet, it wont. CCGs are not Miniatures, there is no value on older stuff. Keyforge was supposed to be huge and is fizzling out; so is Transformers. Its a different, cruel world.

If you like things collecting dust on your shelf, Bandai is doing a thing!

Shush you, the giant space marine is absurd, but that SoB keychain is the waifu I didnt knew I needed but totally deserve.

The Weatherlight is one of the coolest things I read about as a kid and its always stuck with me. (Also, there's so much cool **** going on in the fluff for M;tG, but no-one cares 'cause it has nothing to do with the game...Almost like 40K.

It was the most replayed trailer of an expansion ever (well, its still not much, but yeah). WAR sold like crazy, the novel went out of stock day 1, and everyone is talking about Gideon's death. Maybe down under its different, but the current marrying of mechanics to fluff in MTG is pretty good.

Underworlds Online. Yes! Kill the dead tree version of the game. Underworlds is a game that almost demands an online version. ****! I want to get rid of my M;tG longboxes so bad. But then GW introduces a game with a ****-ton of cards and damn. Underworlds is a good game, but their business model is ****ed. Make it online, and it solves every problem I have with the game.

Its stupid that cardboard boards cost as much as they do and can only be gotten bundled with 2 warbands otherwise. They seem to already have thrown the towel, having released cardless versions of many warbands as ETB kits.

Scouring of the Shire...lol. The thing that never even happened in the movies. Nice!

I have never met anyone who has ever played the game, this version or the old one. Ever.

Warcry feels like a new Underworlds, because they've killed UW by announcing an online client.

Yeah, and that sucks. Everyone here wants Kill Team: AoS, to use their duded in small skirmish games. Not to have to buy yet another ruleset and niche models only for there.

Apocalypse 8th Ed. seems totally lame.

Why is there a d12?

Codex: Chaos Knights is finally going to be a thing.

Pushed as hell, having half a Warhound's main gun.

[EhDerangedMonk]

Just got back from a sizable ETC-style team tournament, team sizes of 5. As a reminder every mission is a combination of Maelstorm+CA eternal war with fixed deployment maps. No index, no FW. Each team can only have one player using a given faction (ie Asuryani, Drukhari, Knights). Removal of 6 Objectives pregame is in effect. Redraw all impossible objectives. Gonna post a quick write up and maybe qq about the first game.

Spoiler: My List

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Alaitoc Battalion

Farseer Skyrunner(doom/guide)
Warlock Skyrunner(Jinx/Protect)
Warlock(Conceal/Reveal)

5x Dire Avengers
5x Dire Avengers
5x Rangers

7x Windriders - 7x Scatter Lasers

3x War Walkers - 6x Scatter Lasers

Alaitoc Air Wing
Crimson Hunter Exarch - Starcannons
Crimson Hunter Exarch - Starcannons
Hemlock Wraithfighter

Kabal of the Black Heart Spearhead
Archon - Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Venom Blade (Warlord: Labyrinthine Cunning, Writ)

Ravager - 3x Disintegrators
Ravager - 3x Disintegrators
Ravager - 3x Disintegrators

Razorwing Jetfighter
Razorwing Jetfighter

TO implemented nu-Ynnari and FAQ rules when they came out- a week after list submissions -and had everyone submit a new list. Really messed me up and I had to scramble to get this together at all. No practice, actually had to borrow a razorwing.

Spoiler: Game 1: Orks

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Spoiler: Opponent's List

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3x Mek with Shokk Attack Gun
Warboss
2 Weirdboys
6+ squads of grots

1 unit of tankbustas

15 Lootas

2 Units of Meganobs

This looks like a weaker variant of the anti-flyer list, i regain some advantage out of the meganob choice over more boys or grot artillery. Other list I could fight was probably going to be Haemonculus Drukhari which is pretty bad for me.

Opponent's choice of table. Heavy ruins, multilevel on a couple in his DZ. Frontline Assault (Pointy dawn of war)

I did very well for myself turn 1-2 but ended up going 4-16 in the end as I will explain.

My opponent brought his personal chess clock. Of the 9 people I personally knew at the tournament, none of them had a chess clock in any of their rounds. A nearby judge ruled that if someone brought a chess clock chess timers would be enforced. Note: I am not experienced against this orks list.

Pregame:
Opponent deploys in heavy ruins, only models visible from across the table are units of grots and the 3 Meks on the top floor of a ruin(untargettable because lol character). 1 Meganob squad and Lootas in reserve. I deploy first so deploy a standardish way with fliers in corners and the rest wide across the middle with troops ready to screen. I get first turn unless opponent seizes, he doesn't

Turn 1
I do some decent damage by aggressively extending my planes to the opposite corners of the map, mainly kill grots. Learned that even if firing a single model's guns my opponent can take and fail saves and then once enough models have died activate grot shields to grot shield wounds off. nbd, just a weird rule. Not knowing that my opponent is supposed to take saves/denies on their own time my opponent rolls all his saves on my time. Opponent more or less just faffs about. Da Jumps tankbustas from ruins into another ruin to shoot at the planes. At which my opponent declares that his ork boys wielding 2handed hammers are actually tankbustas (note no army list from him, tournament is WYSIWYG). After he doubleshoots via stratagem with his shock attack gun he then declares he's doing it again with the tankbustas. As even Ynnari can't ****ing doubleshoot twice I ask for the rules. Opponent immediately switches to my time as it's a rules question (I am bad at doing this back). Opponent doesn't have a rulebook...even on their phone. So I call a judge, judge goes with us to 3 tables before finding someone with vigilus who looks it up (on their phone lol) and yeah it's all good. Yay 7 mins of clock wasted.

Turn 2
Do some solid damage, tankbustas dead cuz i'm not bad. Opponent mostly just waits around, smites twice, shoots with meganobz at a plane that's 3" away. Opponent making some saves on their time now that I give the clock back to him once he did it to me on his Turn 1.

Turn 3
Having lost literally 0 units this whole game my turns are still taking a long time. Kill more gretchin, killed almost all of them actually despite ravagers/bikes/war walkers not doing much since they'd have to be 3-4" away from them to have LoS. Opponent's meganobs come in, Dajump the other injured meganob squad, lootas come in and shoot something.

Turn 4
I clock out 1-2units into my shooting phase, meganobs and lootas 90% unmolested (note they were most certainly dead if I didn't clock out). Opponent basically has free reign to raise hell

Turn 5
Opponent time walks me. of special note is the chain explosions of two of my planes.

Turn 6

Opponent time walks me. Game ends.

4-16 his favor. Yeah not too happy how this worked out. Opponent was pretty scummy -I get the impression he intentionally didn't bring the rulebook to time people out- and left a bad impression in my day. If I didn't run out of time it would have been hugely in my favor. Not going to T6 would have been nice too. Most of my tournament playing friends actually guessed the guy by name when I talked about it later and had similar sentiments about him so I guess he's a known entity in the local scene.

Spoiler: Game 2: Chaos

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Spoiler: Opponent's List

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2x Lord Discordant
Abaddon(o...kay?)
3x Defilers(wat)
50 or 60x Plaguebearers
Sloppity Bilepiper
That Other Nurgle guy
Chaos Sorcerer with Jump Pack(warptime)
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack(relic sword)
Changeling
3x Nurglings

List looked beatable probably was.

Hammer and Anvil, opponent going first

Pregame deploy bikes in cover on second floor of ruins with DA and warlocks. Rangers in reserve to hopefully reach the backline at some point. Opponent deploys aggressively on one flank where 4 objectives are. Lord in Reserve.

Turn 1
Opponent Advances. 4++ bubble goes on all daemon engines, -2 to hit on plaguebearer squad, Shots fired but no damage dealt. On my turn thanks to his advancing i fire with everything, all 5 planes, bikes, ravagers, walkers...and deal 7 wounds to a 3+/4++ T6 model. Yeah my dice whiffed super hard.

Turn 2
Opponent advances further, weakening his backline to congaline the plaguebearers a lot. He charges a dire avenger squad on an objective in the open but forgets to consolidate so I can pile in back onto the objective for my turn to score an eternal war point thanks to obsec. My dice decide to wake up and one lord discordant and a defiler are blown away. Fliers completely block off my lines from his models(FAQ was in effect, still blocking).

Turn 3
Lose both Dire avenger squads. Rangers drop hoping to get 2 secure objectives in his backline after some miserable draws. Opponent has had solid board control 3 turns now, I'm mostly trapped in my DZ. Move Crimson hunters to alternate path blocking location. Defilers both die, last lord discordant dies. Some plaguebearers die. Opponents Chaos lord deepstrikes and makes a 12" charge into my archon. Archon fails on his first save. Dies horribly. Farseer does 2 wounds back thanks to Heroic Intervention. No CP left.

Turn 4
Smite Chaos lord into the next millennium. boost bike warlock forward. Shoot plaguebearers and Nurglings. Move onto objective. Plaguebearers respawn to counteract my models thanks to rolling 1 for LD no points for me. Opponent casts smite and charges rangers with character and one plaguebearer squad.

Turn 5
Shoot nurglings and plaguebearers. boost bike warlock into opponents DZ. and steal an objective by wiping out one plaguebearer unit and the nurglings. Plaguebearers respawn. Opponent just afks on objectives and smites once killing something. Game ends (damn rolls of 2).

Opponent was looking a lot like he was gonna be tabled if it had gone longer. I think after T5 he had 5 plaguebearers and his characters left. Couldn't even move if he wanted to since plaguebearers were dead and miles out of coherency. If this had gone to 6 I would have turned this from a 4-16 to a 8-12 on Eternal war score alone let alone maelstrom. Opponent was a good sport, we were both messed up pretty badly by the FAQ/Ynnari rules.

Spoiler: Game 3: Tau

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Spoiler: Opponent's List

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Shadowsun
Pewpew Commander
Missile Commander
Darkstrider
Kroot Named character
5 Fire Warriors x6
4 Stealth Suits
2 Ghostkeel
Riptide
30? Gun Drones
20? Shield Drones
4 Stealth Drones
6-8 Marker Drones
Ethereal
Cadre fireblade

Deployment DoW. Opponent uses Stealthsuits to screen smites for the Ghostkeels. It's the intel mission.

First Turn:
I go first, Stealth drones die, 3/4 Stealthsuits die. Ghostkeel dead. Bunch of dead shield drones. Opponent strikes back, has to use Mont'ka to even reach me on half his army. It's not great for him.

Turn 2:
Ghostkeel 2 dies. Many drones and firewarriors lose their lives. Kauyon declared. It's not very effective.

Turn 3:
Can't remember if the riptide was injured last turn. Anyway it's dead now, so are a lot of drones and fire warriors. Kroot guy dies. Opponent Kauyons again i think. I'm not particularly worried about it here. I think Hemlock dies here. Razorwing crippled here.

Turn 4:
2 Dead commanders. 2-3 gun drones alive. maybe 5 fire warriors alive beside shadowsun. I think opponent kills a razorwing here.

Game ends due to round time out. I win 20-0. Game end about how I expected it. Alaitoc hoses Tau.

Spoiler: Game 4: Custodes

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Spoiler: Opponent's List

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3x Bikes
4x Bikes
2x Shield Captain on Bike
-1 to hit Vexila
2x 3 Custodes 2 spear 1 shield
1x 3 Custodes 1 spear 2 shield
8x Allarus terminators

Deployment is Vanguard Maelstrom is the Draw two opponent picks which one you keep mission

Opponent chose the table, I chose to fight him. Table had absurdly high L-shaped walls with bases (ruins). Opponent gets first turn.

Turn 1:
Opponent advances, plants 2 squads on home objectives, bikes on one no-man's land objective in the L-shaped wall. Lshaped walls facing me so it's hard to see. Opponent notices that if i position fliers on my own walls I could shoot him. So he takes advantage of the fact that he magnetized the lances on his bikes (custodes bike lances add about 4" to the model when pointed straight up) and moves them from the vertical to the horizontal position. I am not a huge fan of modelling for advantage but am worried for time and TO/judge is nowhere to be seen (note: 100player tournament). Ravagers and War walkers useless because of this. I manage to kill 3 bikes in the only squad i get LoS to with my bikes (the 4man).

Turn 2:
Opponent moves up, charges a razorwing and the elusive hemlock. Hemlock and razorwing live. 3rd squad of custodes on middle ground objective. I delete the 3-man squad of bikes and injure the last biker of the other squad. He rolls 22 2+ saves while on 1 wound and doesn't die. I think this turn I had 2 Defends and 2 Secures in his DZ

Turn 3:
Opponent advances vexila into my lines and tries to drop the terminators within 3" of me. I have 5CP left. Vect tells him to **** off, I roll a 6, RIP his 3CP. Captain tries to kill my Hemlock, fails. Other captain goes after the injured razorwing and fails. Terminators lacking anywhere good to drop and having 0CP for charge rerolls drop in on the bikers. Good use of ruins prevents overwatch but IDGAF about my bikers at this point. He fails the charge anyway. Dead Captain (warlord), nearly killed vexila, finish off biker. 4/5 dire avengers taste bolters. My bikes get shot up a bit.

Turn 4:
Kill half the terminators terminators. Plink away at other captain, and custodes on objectives. Farseer prepares to all-in a squad of custodes in middle ground for points. Ravagers move up. Crimson hunter takes a couple wounds.

Turn 5:
Allarus terminators do...something pointless. Razorwing dies. Think the hemlock dies here too. Farseer dives a squad of custodes. Luckily he has air support and smites for 1 just barely managing to kill them. Ravagers and bikes fire out killing the second captain and trying to kill the custodes on objectives but failing. 3++ is still good. Game ends due to roll.

18-2 my favor. Relatively close to time ~10mins.

If the game had gone one one more turn or he had not have moved the custodes' spears down it would have been 20-0. Talked to judge afterwards and he confirmed that it was illegal but too late to do anything about after the fact. Ruling was: weapon positions must be decided before the game start, can't change them midgame for advantage.

Spoiler: Game 5: Tau

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Spoiler: Opponent's List

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Sacea Cadre Fireblade
Ethereal
3x5 Fire WArriors (Sacea?)
30? Sniper Drones (all tau below)
Markerlight character x3.
Commander
2x Riptide
3x Missile Broadsides
30? Shield Drones
If it could take a +1 to hit against air it had it.

Deployment Hammer and Anvil, opponent's table choice..and somehow chose me rather than a mirror iirc. He took a risk and put 3 objectives in one DZ. I won the DZ roll off and took it bad times ahead. Really cool guy. Was speaking to him after the game and we both agreed that even with maximum velocity trackers it wasn't a good matchup for him. Deployed basically my whole army against the short board edge.

Turn 1
Opponent goes first. Has to Mont'ka to get in range with anything. I am a moron and left my farseer, bike warlock, and Archon warlord exposed. My opponent immediately blows away the archon who fails on his second save. One Crimson hunter taken to 8. I strike back, One Riptide dies, 10 Shield drones die. Opponent left only one squad of drones in range so i just shot them first with a tide of lasers. Razorwings shoot Sniper drones. Ravagers shoot sniper drones.

Turn 2
Opponent powers up and injures a hemlock, kills the Crimson hunter, injures a razorwing. I kill the second riptide, 10-11 shield drones, some fire warriors, and more sniper drones. Characters safely out of LoS.

Turn 3
Opponent manages to finish off one razorwing, injures a ravager. I roll saves like a boss on the second razorwing. Wasn't even using my dice I felt it was getting so gross. Drone genocide continues. Missilesides die after i kill the drones.

Turn 4
Opponent has 5 Sniper drones, 5 fire warriors, 2 fireblades, the markerlight characters, and a commander left. He concedes 20-0 my favor.

Aeldari planes are good against Tau, people.

Spoiler: Conclusions

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All in all considering I built my list in 3 days and had never run it before the day of the tournament I think I did okay. Daemons, GSC, and Drukhari definitely a bad matchup did my best to avoid them. Pure knights could be bad depending on how many gallants there are. Castellan guard still a risky fight that's map-dependant. If I buy a chess clock and force it into all my games at the LGS I can probably get used to chess clocks and not get ****ed by giving my opponent 40mins to work my army over.

Don't run Tau vs this archetype, you're gonna have a bad time. The Custodes list felt a little weak. Main issue is lack of solid priority threats beyond the bikes. I have a friend who runs Knights/Custodes and did so in this tournament. It's much scarier. Orks fight was very winnable and only really became a game because I ran out of time. I need to play against the actual Anti-air list sometime. Chaos list was mostly bad luck as it wasn't very well put together. In hindsight I should have taken the orks list I was offered instead of chaos as it was just a massive blob of orks no lootas/tankbustas but I had 3 teammates chomping at the bit to devour it and again, mostly bad rolls on my part and some clutch plaguebearer rolls kept the chaos list going. Moderate trauma from first game may have also played a part. IDK if you've ever timed out but having your turn end before the 'and now you kill his scary dudes' part for your opponent to play 3 turns back to back where all you can do is roll saves is super ****ing demoralizing. Couldn't even declare Lightning fast reflexes or roll overwatch.

Planes still good after FAQ nerfs, just require more foresight and finesse to use right. Running 5 planes is also great for screening when you don't **** up. They have really large footprints that make denying good deepstrike locations very easy while still providing value to your army unlike Dire Avengers, storm guardians, or rangers. Most games they may as well have not been given firearms. Still want the battalion for CP and having fixed area denial units is nice since past T2-3 it's pretty hard to keep your DZ locked down with dark eldar planes.

Foot warlock spent most of every game concealing the bikes and zoning deepstrikers or holding objectives, not sure if worth but more likely I just didn't have a matchup where cover was a big deal. War walkers are a decent alternative to the bikes as they're one point more than the bike squad. Getting tied up and mobility could be an issue but with 36" range you can probably deploy them on the table without a care most of the time and you've got mad durability(T6 6W, 5++) to make up for the lack of conceal.

Let me know what you think. If you like the writeups I'll see about doing another one for the next tournament I attend.

[Destro_Yersul]

I have never met anyone who has ever played the game, this version or the old one. Ever.

I played the old one. Have the Moria box set and a handful of rangers. I spent a brief period of time working for GW, and they required you to have minis for all three games. I picked the cheapest option. The game was ok, but I have no idea how it's still around with numbers being like they were. I don't remember ever actually selling any LOTR stuff.

[Requizen]

Warhammer Fest Weekend

New edition of WHFRP. Still waiting on a Mortal Realms edition...Honestly, I just want to play Spelljammer again, and having a flying Kharadron ship flying through Realmgates is all I want to do...Okay, you got me...The Weatherlight is one of the coolest things I read about as a kid and its always stuck with me.
...WHFRP doesn't have Kharadrons. 'Nuff said.
(The cool fluff Kharadrons, that is. Tabletop Kharadrons are garbage and why I can't get into AoS)
(Also, there's so much cool **** going on in the fluff for M;tG, but no-one cares 'cause it has nothing to do with the game...Almost like 40K.
Avengers: Endgame; The is the crossover event of a lifetime.
The Weatherlight Saga; Am I a joke to you?)

There is an AoS specific RPG coming out. It's going to be separate from WHFB RPG, but it's announced to already have Kharadron. Just for you!

Underworlds Online. Yes! Kill the dead tree version of the game. Underworlds is a game that almost demands an online version. ****! I want to get rid of my M;tG longboxes so bad. But then GW introduces a game with a ****-ton of cards and damn. Underworlds is a good game, but their business model is ****ed. Make it online, and it solves every problem I have with the game.

As someone who adores (and always talks about ) the physical version, I'm super excited for this. I'm on the Discord and just hyped for it in general. It's probably going to be very much what you want - flat price for getting the game gets you 4 of the factions (currently 18 in the game), all Universal/Neutral cards will be free forever, pay for extra Factions you want.

John French bails on Warhammer Fest (due to illness), but it's okay. You can pay GW more money to see him at the next event.

[/QUOTE]

I have never met anyone who has ever played the game, this version or the old one. Ever.

It's gotten a resurgence in our area, but it's quite niche. Supposedly the newest ruleset is actually really solid, but I can't get into another tabletop game. Though I might get that Hobbit Hole kit for fun.

Yeah, and that sucks. Everyone here wants Kill Team: AoS, to use their duded in small skirmish games. Not to have to buy yet another ruleset and niche models only for there.

They mentioned that there will be rules for existing AoS factions in the game - 9 to be exact, with the teased icons including Nighthaunt, Stormcast (duh), Idoneth, and Bonesplitterz among others. Though we won't know more until later, it does look interesting. While I don't have an inclination to start a Chaos army, getting the little factions would be a cool painting project for sure.

[Cheesegear]

It was the most replayed trailer of an expansion ever (well, its still not much, but yeah). WAR sold like crazy, the novel went out of stock day 1, and everyone is talking about Gideon's death. Maybe down under its different, but the current marrying of mechanics to fluff in MTG is pretty good.

Nicol Bolas is back.
There's a cover of In the End which sounds amazing.
Main characters die.

I think the Chapterhouse Case screwed GW; If they don't make a model for something, then they can't produce rules for it.

This shafts GW so hard. As it means that they can't actually progress the timeline in the way that M;tG can - ruleswise.

How many versions of Garruk are there? Nissa Revane?

The production time on a card, is piss.
Producing a model, takes effort - even when you're using CAD apparently.

One of the best things I've seen, was that with the Emperor's Spears book, there was a Chapter Tactics thing in back. If you want to represent Emperor's Spears on the table, here's how you do it. But, that wasn't about models, was it?
I think almost every novel should have that.

It's not hard to create ban lists if anything that comes out of the back of a novel is too strong (because GW doesn't play-test).

[Wraith]

I do like things collecting dust on my shelves. Probably gonna get me one of those things.

All of the concept art that I've seen for these things are grey CAD renderings - does anyone know if this is intentional, and they're going to be sold blank for you to paint as you wish, or are these just concept images for something that will come pre-painted? I'm betting on the latter, but the former would be kind of interesting.

Warcry feels like a new Underworlds, because they've killed UW by announcing an online client.

I'm not going to lie; the amount of time it took for me to realise that Warcry and Underworlds aren't the same game is slightly embarrassing.
Two skirmish-sized wargames based on the AoS IP and yet people are still asking for Kill Team: AoS as well? I like the AoS setting and I too would love to play an AoS RPG (for me, it would be more like Stargate than it would Spelljammer, but I digress) but this is how Specialist Games died the first two times and this sort of thing worries me.

Halflings for Blood Bowl. Nice conversion bases for D&D models.

The new Deeproot Strongbranch looks horrible. Also they're putting in Goblins and Halflings before they have put in Lizardmen, High Elves and Wood Elves (which I know have been announced, but still)? I can understand that GW might be trying to distance themselves from old races that don't appear elsewhere in any of their games - like Amazons, Norse and Khemri - but are Halflings really a top priority right now?
Again, I'm thinking back to how Specialist Games died twice before, and how I've mentioned Blood Bowl's slow release schedule since 2016. If GW are trying to keep people interested in the game and ensure that it has a long shelf life.... They sure as hell aren't acting like it.

Turns out painting single-coloured models is too hard for babies. So GW made a new undercoat designed for dipping your models in a thicker glaze.

I'm choosing to interpret these paints as a step towards inclusion, as they're likely going to be a godsend for people with limited mobility/dexterity, colour-blindness, partial sight and similar ailments which make fine coordination into a trauma.
I think I'm probably being very generous in that interpretation however, as I've seen nothing to suggest that's what GW is marketing them as.

The game was ok, but I have no idea how it's still around with numbers being like they were. I don't remember ever actually selling any LOTR stuff.

I've heard from multiple sources that in the year it came out, the Smaug model was the single best selling thing produced by GW after glue and paint. Hobbyists went nuts for it... or at least, bulk-buyers and scalpers assumed that they would and stocked up, at which point GW no longer cared what happened to them.

The point being, I don't think that the LotR games are intended to be played, so much as they're to be collected by LotR fanatics. The novelty will wear off eventually, but that will have little if anything to do with the rules of the game.

[Cheesegear]

I like the AoS setting and I too would love to play an AoS RPG (for me, it would be more like Stargate than it would Spelljammer, but I digress)

You misunderstand. I will make it Spelljammer.
You will be flying around on a boat.

I'm choosing to interpret these paints as a step towards inclusion, as they're likely going to be a godsend for people with limited mobility/dexterity, colour-blindness, partial sight and similar ailments which make fine coordination into a trauma.
I think I'm probably being very generous in that interpretation however, as I've seen nothing to suggest that's what GW is marketing them as.

I think you're being very, very generous. I firmly believe that the contrast paints are designed for people who refuse to paint their models because 'it's too hard'.
It's barely a step above making coloured sprays, marketing them as primers (they're not) and then also telling people that you can use them as a basecoat (you can't).

[Forum Explorer]

Just got back from a sizable ETC-style team tournament, team sizes of 5. As a reminder every mission is a combination of Maelstorm+CA eternal war with fixed deployment maps. No index, no FW. Each team can only have one player using a given faction (ie Asuryani, Drukhari, Knights). Removal of 6 Objectives pregame is in effect. Redraw all impossible objectives. Gonna post a quick write up and maybe qq about the first game.

Spoiler: My List

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Alaitoc Battalion

Farseer Skyrunner(doom/guide)
Warlock Skyrunner(Jinx/Protect)
Warlock(Conceal/Reveal)

5x Dire Avengers
5x Dire Avengers
5x Rangers

7x Windriders - 7x Scatter Lasers

3x War Walkers - 6x Scatter Lasers

Alaitoc Air Wing
Crimson Hunter Exarch - Starcannons
Crimson Hunter Exarch - Starcannons
Hemlock Wraithfighter

Kabal of the Black Heart Spearhead
Archon - Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Venom Blade (Warlord: Labyrinthine Cunning, Writ)

Ravager - 3x Disintegrators
Ravager - 3x Disintegrators
Ravager - 3x Disintegrators

Razorwing Jetfighter
Razorwing Jetfighter

TO implemented nu-Ynnari and FAQ rules when they came out- a week after list submissions -and had everyone submit a new list. Really messed me up and I had to scramble to get this together at all. No practice, actually had to borrow a razorwing.

Spoiler: Game 1: Orks

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Spoiler: Opponent's List

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3x Mek with Shokk Attack Gun
Warboss
2 Weirdboys
6+ squads of grots

1 unit of tankbustas

15 Lootas

2 Units of Meganobs

This looks like a weaker variant of the anti-flyer list, i regain some advantage out of the meganob choice over more boys or grot artillery. Other list I could fight was probably going to be Haemonculus Drukhari which is pretty bad for me.

Opponent's choice of table. Heavy ruins, multilevel on a couple in his DZ. Frontline Assault (Pointy dawn of war)

I did very well for myself turn 1-2 but ended up going 4-16 in the end as I will explain.

My opponent brought his personal chess clock. Of the 9 people I personally knew at the tournament, none of them had a chess clock in any of their rounds. A nearby judge ruled that if someone brought a chess clock chess timers would be enforced. Note: I am not experienced against this orks list.

Pregame:
Opponent deploys in heavy ruins, only models visible from across the table are units of grots and the 3 Meks on the top floor of a ruin(untargettable because lol character). 1 Meganob squad and Lootas in reserve. I deploy first so deploy a standardish way with fliers in corners and the rest wide across the middle with troops ready to screen. I get first turn unless opponent seizes, he doesn't

Turn 1
I do some decent damage by aggressively extending my planes to the opposite corners of the map, mainly kill grots. Learned that even if firing a single model's guns my opponent can take and fail saves and then once enough models have died activate grot shields to grot shield wounds off. nbd, just a weird rule. Not knowing that my opponent is supposed to take saves/denies on their own time my opponent rolls all his saves on my time. Opponent more or less just faffs about. Da Jumps tankbustas from ruins into another ruin to shoot at the planes. At which my opponent declares that his ork boys wielding 2handed hammers are actually tankbustas (note no army list from him, tournament is WYSIWYG). After he doubleshoots via stratagem with his shock attack gun he then declares he's doing it again with the tankbustas. As even Ynnari can't ****ing doubleshoot twice I ask for the rules. Opponent immediately switches to my time as it's a rules question (I am bad at doing this back). Opponent doesn't have a rulebook...even on their phone. So I call a judge, judge goes with us to 3 tables before finding someone with vigilus who looks it up (on their phone lol) and yeah it's all good. Yay 7 mins of clock wasted.

Turn 2
Do some solid damage, tankbustas dead cuz i'm not bad. Opponent mostly just waits around, smites twice, shoots with meganobz at a plane that's 3" away. Opponent making some saves on their time now that I give the clock back to him once he did it to me on his Turn 1.

Turn 3
Having lost literally 0 units this whole game my turns are still taking a long time. Kill more gretchin, killed almost all of them actually despite ravagers/bikes/war walkers not doing much since they'd have to be 3-4" away from them to have LoS. Opponent's meganobs come in, Dajump the other injured meganob squad, lootas come in and shoot something.

Turn 4
I clock out 1-2units into my shooting phase, meganobs and lootas 90% unmolested (note they were most certainly dead if I didn't clock out). Opponent basically has free reign to raise hell

Turn 5
Opponent time walks me. of special note is the chain explosions of two of my planes.

Turn 6

Opponent time walks me. Game ends.

4-16 his favor. Yeah not too happy how this worked out. Opponent was pretty scummy -I get the impression he intentionally didn't bring the rulebook to time people out- and left a bad impression in my day. If I didn't run out of time it would have been hugely in my favor. Not going to T6 would have been nice too. Most of my tournament playing friends actually guessed the guy by name when I talked about it later and had similar sentiments about him so I guess he's a known entity in the local scene.

Spoiler: Game 2: Chaos

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Spoiler: Opponent's List

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2x Lord Discordant
Abaddon(o...kay?)
3x Defilers(wat)
50 or 60x Plaguebearers
Sloppity Bilepiper
That Other Nurgle guy
Chaos Sorcerer with Jump Pack(warptime)
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack(relic sword)
Changeling
3x Nurglings

List looked beatable probably was.

Hammer and Anvil, opponent going first

Pregame deploy bikes in cover on second floor of ruins with DA and warlocks. Rangers in reserve to hopefully reach the backline at some point. Opponent deploys aggressively on one flank where 4 objectives are. Lord in Reserve.

Turn 1
Opponent Advances. 4++ bubble goes on all daemon engines, -2 to hit on plaguebearer squad, Shots fired but no damage dealt. On my turn thanks to his advancing i fire with everything, all 5 planes, bikes, ravagers, walkers...and deal 7 wounds to a 3+/4++ T6 model. Yeah my dice whiffed super hard.

Turn 2
Opponent advances further, weakening his backline to congaline the plaguebearers a lot. He charges a dire avenger squad on an objective in the open but forgets to consolidate so I can pile in back onto the objective for my turn to score an eternal war point thanks to obsec. My dice decide to wake up and one lord discordant and a defiler are blown away. Fliers completely block off my lines from his models(FAQ was in effect, still blocking).

Turn 3
Lose both Dire avenger squads. Rangers drop hoping to get 2 secure objectives in his backline after some miserable draws. Opponent has had solid board control 3 turns now, I'm mostly trapped in my DZ. Move Crimson hunters to alternate path blocking location. Defilers both die, last lord discordant dies. Some plaguebearers die. Opponents Chaos lord deepstrikes and makes a 12" charge into my archon. Archon fails on his first save. Dies horribly. Farseer does 2 wounds back thanks to Heroic Intervention. No CP left.

Turn 4
Smite Chaos lord into the next millennium. boost bike warlock forward. Shoot plaguebearers and Nurglings. Move onto objective. Plaguebearers respawn to counteract my models thanks to rolling 1 for LD no points for me. Opponent casts smite and charges rangers with character and one plaguebearer squad.

Turn 5
Shoot nurglings and plaguebearers. boost bike warlock into opponents DZ. and steal an objective by wiping out one plaguebearer unit and the nurglings. Plaguebearers respawn. Opponent just afks on objectives and smites once killing something. Game ends (damn rolls of 2).

Opponent was looking a lot like he was gonna be tabled if it had gone longer. I think after T5 he had 5 plaguebearers and his characters left. Couldn't even move if he wanted to since plaguebearers were dead and miles out of coherency. If this had gone to 6 I would have turned this from a 4-16 to a 8-12 on Eternal war score alone let alone maelstrom. Opponent was a good sport, we were both messed up pretty badly by the FAQ/Ynnari rules.

Spoiler: Game 3: Tau

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Spoiler: Opponent's List

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Shadowsun
Pewpew Commander
Missile Commander
Darkstrider
Kroot Named character
5 Fire Warriors x6
4 Stealth Suits
2 Ghostkeel
Riptide
30? Gun Drones
20? Shield Drones
4 Stealth Drones
6-8 Marker Drones
Ethereal
Cadre fireblade

Deployment DoW. Opponent uses Stealthsuits to screen smites for the Ghostkeels. It's the intel mission.

First Turn:
I go first, Stealth drones die, 3/4 Stealthsuits die. Ghostkeel dead. Bunch of dead shield drones. Opponent strikes back, has to use Mont'ka to even reach me on half his army. It's not great for him.

Turn 2:
Ghostkeel 2 dies. Many drones and firewarriors lose their lives. Kauyon declared. It's not very effective.

Turn 3:
Can't remember if the riptide was injured last turn. Anyway it's dead now, so are a lot of drones and fire warriors. Kroot guy dies. Opponent Kauyons again i think. I'm not particularly worried about it here. I think Hemlock dies here. Razorwing crippled here.

Turn 4:
2 Dead commanders. 2-3 gun drones alive. maybe 5 fire warriors alive beside shadowsun. I think opponent kills a razorwing here.

Game ends due to round time out. I win 20-0. Game end about how I expected it. Alaitoc hoses Tau.

Spoiler: Game 4: Custodes

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Spoiler: Opponent's List

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3x Bikes
4x Bikes
2x Shield Captain on Bike
-1 to hit Vexila
2x 3 Custodes 2 spear 1 shield
1x 3 Custodes 1 spear 2 shield
8x Allarus terminators

Deployment is Vanguard Maelstrom is the Draw two opponent picks which one you keep mission

Opponent chose the table, I chose to fight him. Table had absurdly high L-shaped walls with bases (ruins). Opponent gets first turn.

Turn 1:
Opponent advances, plants 2 squads on home objectives, bikes on one no-man's land objective in the L-shaped wall. Lshaped walls facing me so it's hard to see. Opponent notices that if i position fliers on my own walls I could shoot him. So he takes advantage of the fact that he magnetized the lances on his bikes (custodes bike lances add about 4" to the model when pointed straight up) and moves them from the vertical to the horizontal position. I am not a huge fan of modelling for advantage but am worried for time and TO/judge is nowhere to be seen (note: 100player tournament). Ravagers and War walkers useless because of this. I manage to kill 3 bikes in the only squad i get LoS to with my bikes (the 4man).

Turn 2:
Opponent moves up, charges a razorwing and the elusive hemlock. Hemlock and razorwing live. 3rd squad of custodes on middle ground objective. I delete the 3-man squad of bikes and injure the last biker of the other squad. He rolls 22 2+ saves while on 1 wound and doesn't die. I think this turn I had 2 Defends and 2 Secures in his DZ

Turn 3:
Opponent advances vexila into my lines and tries to drop the terminators within 3" of me. I have 5CP left. Vect tells him to **** off, I roll a 6, RIP his 3CP. Captain tries to kill my Hemlock, fails. Other captain goes after the injured razorwing and fails. Terminators lacking anywhere good to drop and having 0CP for charge rerolls drop in on the bikers. Good use of ruins prevents overwatch but IDGAF about my bikers at this point. He fails the charge anyway. Dead Captain (warlord), nearly killed vexila, finish off biker. 4/5 dire avengers taste bolters. My bikes get shot up a bit.

Turn 4:
Kill half the terminators terminators. Plink away at other captain, and custodes on objectives. Farseer prepares to all-in a squad of custodes in middle ground for points. Ravagers move up. Crimson hunter takes a couple wounds.

Turn 5:
Allarus terminators do...something pointless. Razorwing dies. Think the hemlock dies here too. Farseer dives a squad of custodes. Luckily he has air support and smites for 1 just barely managing to kill them. Ravagers and bikes fire out killing the second captain and trying to kill the custodes on objectives but failing. 3++ is still good. Game ends due to roll.

18-2 my favor. Relatively close to time ~10mins.

If the game had gone one one more turn or he had not have moved the custodes' spears down it would have been 20-0. Talked to judge afterwards and he confirmed that it was illegal but too late to do anything about after the fact. Ruling was: weapon positions must be decided before the game start, can't change them midgame for advantage.

Spoiler: Game 5: Tau

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Spoiler: Opponent's List

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Sacea Cadre Fireblade
Ethereal
3x5 Fire WArriors (Sacea?)
30? Sniper Drones (all tau below)
Markerlight character x3.
Commander
2x Riptide
3x Missile Broadsides
30? Shield Drones
If it could take a +1 to hit against air it had it.

Deployment Hammer and Anvil, opponent's table choice..and somehow chose me rather than a mirror iirc. He took a risk and put 3 objectives in one DZ. I won the DZ roll off and took it bad times ahead. Really cool guy. Was speaking to him after the game and we both agreed that even with maximum velocity trackers it wasn't a good matchup for him. Deployed basically my whole army against the short board edge.

Turn 1
Opponent goes first. Has to Mont'ka to get in range with anything. I am a moron and left my farseer, bike warlock, and Archon warlord exposed. My opponent immediately blows away the archon who fails on his second save. One Crimson hunter taken to 8. I strike back, One Riptide dies, 10 Shield drones die. Opponent left only one squad of drones in range so i just shot them first with a tide of lasers. Razorwings shoot Sniper drones. Ravagers shoot sniper drones.

Turn 2
Opponent powers up and injures a hemlock, kills the Crimson hunter, injures a razorwing. I kill the second riptide, 10-11 shield drones, some fire warriors, and more sniper drones. Characters safely out of LoS.

Turn 3
Opponent manages to finish off one razorwing, injures a ravager. I roll saves like a boss on the second razorwing. Wasn't even using my dice I felt it was getting so gross. Drone genocide continues. Missilesides die after i kill the drones.

Turn 4
Opponent has 5 Sniper drones, 5 fire warriors, 2 fireblades, the markerlight characters, and a commander left. He concedes 20-0 my favor.

Aeldari planes are good against Tau, people.

Spoiler: Conclusions

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All in all considering I built my list in 3 days and had never run it before the day of the tournament I think I did okay. Daemons, GSC, and Drukhari definitely a bad matchup did my best to avoid them. Pure knights could be bad depending on how many gallants there are. Castellan guard still a risky fight that's map-dependant. If I buy a chess clock and force it into all my games at the LGS I can probably get used to chess clocks and not get ****ed by giving my opponent 40mins to work my army over.

Don't run Tau vs this archetype, you're gonna have a bad time. The Custodes list felt a little weak. Main issue is lack of solid priority threats beyond the bikes. I have a friend who runs Knights/Custodes and did so in this tournament. It's much scarier. Orks fight was very winnable and only really became a game because I ran out of time. I need to play against the actual Anti-air list sometime. Chaos list was mostly bad luck as it wasn't very well put together. In hindsight I should have taken the orks list I was offered instead of chaos as it was just a massive blob of orks no lootas/tankbustas but I had 3 teammates chomping at the bit to devour it and again, mostly bad rolls on my part and some clutch plaguebearer rolls kept the chaos list going. Moderate trauma from first game may have also played a part. IDK if you've ever timed out but having your turn end before the 'and now you kill his scary dudes' part for your opponent to play 3 turns back to back where all you can do is roll saves is super ****ing demoralizing. Couldn't even declare Lightning fast reflexes or roll overwatch.

Planes still good after FAQ nerfs, just require more foresight and finesse to use right. Running 5 planes is also great for screening when you don't **** up. They have really large footprints that make denying good deepstrike locations very easy while still providing value to your army unlike Dire Avengers, storm guardians, or rangers. Most games they may as well have not been given firearms. Still want the battalion for CP and having fixed area denial units is nice since past T2-3 it's pretty hard to keep your DZ locked down with dark eldar planes.

Foot warlock spent most of every game concealing the bikes and zoning deepstrikers or holding objectives, not sure if worth but more likely I just didn't have a matchup where cover was a big deal. War walkers are a decent alternative to the bikes as they're one point more than the bike squad. Getting tied up and mobility could be an issue but with 36" range you can probably deploy them on the table without a care most of the time and you've got mad durability(T6 6W, 5++) to make up for the lack of conceal.

Let me know what you think. If you like the writeups I'll see about doing another one for the next tournament I attend.

Ork player sounds like a real jerk. I would've got in a fight with him over whose time got used for the rule dispute. To the point of trying to get him disqualified. After all, most tournaments require you to have a copy of all the rules you are using. Not having said copy would be grounds to autolose right there. Or at least, grounds to not be able to use Vigilus Defiant at all. After all, it's not your fault that he didn't bring his rules to the tournament.

Conceal is pretty much always better than reveal. And War Walkers are indeed awesome. But you know what else works? Vypers. Almost as tough as War Walkers, still have Fly, and are still Jetbikes so Conceal works on them as well.

[Wraith]

You misunderstand. I will make it Spelljammer.
You will be flying around on a boat.

And I am completely down for that, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. I just happen to particularly like the idea of exploring Realm Gates, too.

I think you're being very, very generous. I firmly believe that the contrast paints are designed for people who refuse to paint their models because 'it's too hard'.

Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely sure that they're doing it as a long-term financial investment - make it easier to get in the hobby, so it's then harder to get out of it later - but if as a side-effect it means that more people with a physical disability can pop together their push-and-play models and paint them to a reasonable standard in one-and-done glazes then I'm all for it.

If nothing else I'd rather see models that have been "cheated" to look like they're based and shaded, rather than just based or left grey. Any effort is better than none at all.

My opponent brought his personal chess clock. Of the 9 people I personally knew at the tournament, none of them had a chess clock in any of their rounds. A nearby judge ruled that if someone brought a chess clock chess timers would be enforced. Note: I am not experienced against this orks list.

This is a direct and quantifiable failing of the TO. You cannot allow one table to use different rules and conditions to the others, it's an unfair advantage to the one guy who has brought one having had all the time in the world to practice with it and accommodate its use into his turn.
This is even before it causes arguments over how its being used and whose 'turn' it is - a TO should have clear rules and expectations on that etiquette and being unprepared, unable or unwilling to enforce them just allows it to be abused.

[Maethirion]

I have never met anyone who has ever played the game, this version or the old one. Ever.

I did for a little while - there was a magazine they brought out for a while (in New Zealand) that came with a couple of minis, some paints and scenarios etc once a month. I was in the age bracket it was intended for and loved it. I don't think it lasted very long. I've still got some bits and pieces from it lying around somewhere. I'm not sure I would have ever played a full game using the full rule set though.

[LansXero]

Nicol Bolas is back.
There's a cover of In the End which sounds amazing.
Main characters die.

I dont know, the cover felt tacked-on. But the trailer was very good and a huge tease that got them the press they wanted so thats great. It was a pretty satisfying way to tie up plotlines that have been buliding up for years now. And a commercial success, many stores were out of product right after pre-release.

I think the Chapterhouse Case screwed GW; If they don't make a model for something, then they can't produce rules for it. This shafts GW so hard. As it means that they can't actually progress the timeline in the way that M;tG can - ruleswise. How many versions of Garruk are there? Nissa Revane?

Garruk was put on a bus, most likely; Nissa lost her place as main G 'walker to a newer one, but I get your point: Its easier to slot in plot scenes into cards than make models for it. WarmaHordes sort of tried this, with newer versions of their Warcasters reflecting changes in the lore, but it requires a semi-stable roster of characters to move forward and its harder with so many factions as there are in 40k. But maybe we'll see more fluff-related models, like P-Calgar, who knows.

The production time on a card, is piss. Producing a model, takes effort - even when you're using CAD apparently.

roflcopter, you do know that development time on a set is slightly over 2 years, right? I love 40k and many of the things GW does, but they are slower than they need to be because they want to, its got nothing to do with models or anything.

One of the best things I've seen, was that with the Emperor's Spears book, there was a Chapter Tactics thing in back. If you want to represent Emperor's Spears on the table, here's how you do it. But, that wasn't about models, was it?
I think almost every novel should have that. It's not hard to create ban lists if anything that comes out of the back of a novel is too strong (because GW doesn't play-test).

To this day I dont know why there never was a First Claw boxed set. Its just 5 models with pre-set bits, could be sold bundled with the paperback of the trilogy or whatever. Likewise, FW's books sometimes make their own stuff up, and things from the novel series dont have models and I dont get why the dissonance.

I think you're being very, very generous. I firmly believe that the contrast paints are designed for people who refuse to paint their models because 'it's too hard'.

Plenty of those around; otherwise there wont be anything for comission painters to work off. Sometimes its due to time constraints, unsupportive SOs, lack of proper space (like students living in rented rooms), etc. so its not always just not wanting to. So if its easier and faster to do, then maybe it will tide them over. Lets just hope it wont be even more expensive than regular Citadel.

It's barely a step above making coloured sprays, marketing them as primers (they're not) and then also telling people that you can use them as a basecoat (you can't)

.

Like the Army Painter ones? You totally can.

[Meatgrinder]

Spoiler: Repulsors are good!

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++Battalion: Blood Angels- 5 CP++
Captain (124)- Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
Captain (124)- Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield

Infiltrator Squad (110)- x5 Infiltrators
Scout Squad (55)- x5 scouts with combat knives
Scout Squad (55)- x5 scouts with combat knives


++Battalion: Blood Angels- 5 CP++
Captain (124)- Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
Lemartes (100)

Infiltrator Squad (110)- x5 Infiltrators
Scout Squad (55)- x5 scouts with combat knives
Scout Squad (55)- x5 scouts with combat knives

Death Company (380)- x5 Thunder hammers, x10 bolters and chainswords

Repulsor (270)- Heavy onslaught gatling cannon, onslaught gatling cannon
Repulsor (270)- Heavy onslaught gatling cannon, onslaught gatling cannon


++Battalion: <Graia> Adeptus Mechanicus- 5CP++
Enginseer (30)
Enginseer (30)

Rangers (35)- x5 rangers
Rangers (35)- x5 rangers
Rangers (35)- x5 rangers

++Total: 1987 pts, 18CP++

This is a list I've been thinking about lately. Haven't decided what warlord traits and relics (and Death Vision's) I'll be using yet. The Repulsors provide anti-horde dakka, the skitarii hold objectives and sometimes deny a power, and the Death Company and smash captains deal with any vehicles the opponent has. The Infiltrators, while expensive, can secure my flanks against deepstrikers, letting me funnel the hordes into the Repulsors.

Or, maybe I'm wrong, the Repulsors will die Turn 1, and I won't have enough bodies to hold my objectives. What do you all think?

[Ionbound]

I mean, my view on Contrast is this: It's awesome that GW is putting out something for those of us that don't have the time and skill to make tabletop quality models. I, personally, am one of these people; I don't have a ton of time to work with as a student, and also I suck at painting.

[LansXero]

I mean, my view on Contrast is this: It's awesome that GW is putting out something for those of us that don't have the time and skill to make tabletop quality models. I, personally, am one of these people; I don't have a ton of time to work with as a student, and also I suck at painting.

Then your minis will continue to look sucky; what bothers me is that they are giving the impression that its good for people with no skill and no interest in getting better. Its not. It saves time, sure, but if you couldnt paint with regular paints before, it will still be the same mess, just slightly more shaded and highlighted.

I paint moderately decently. Im also really short sighted and tend to lose focus often, to the point I cant even read. Nobody is good at practical stuff without trying and practice; I get that not everyone has time for that, but skills can be trained with enough will for it.

[Avaris]

Then your minis will continue to look sucky; what bothers me is that they are giving the impression that its good for people with no skill and no interest in getting better. Its not. It saves time, sure, but if you couldnt paint with regular paints before, it will still be the same mess, just slightly more shaded and highlighted.

I paint moderately decently. Im also really short sighted and tend to lose focus often, to the point I cant even read. Nobody is good at practical stuff without trying and practice; I get that not everyone has time for that, but skills can be trained with enough will for it.

I'd see this as a lowering of the first step towards painting. Getting decent results painting can seem an insurmountable challenge. Certainly, when I was younger the tools available meant it was impossible with my level of commitment and skill. Yet when I returned to the hobby there were new, better tools: shade paints. I absolutely credit shade paints with making me think 'hey, I can do this'. That got me painting, from there I gradually picked up more skills, having started off from a position that was 'I have no skill and no interest in this part of the hobby'.

So by saying 'this is good for people with no skill', they are encouraging those people who THINK they have no skill to try. And then, despite themselves, they will learn to get better! Telling people painting is a skill that you have to train will work for some, but drive others away. Tricking people into giving it a go and thinking 'oh, that's not so hard', will work for others.

[Requizen]

Jeez, I knew we were elitist gamers here, but I didn't know elitist painters were just as bad.

Get paint on models to the best of your ability. Who cares how it happens.

[LeSwordfish]

I love the idea of Contrast, and while i'm reserving judgement on the actual implementation, I've seen a few reports that it works pretty well when "just slopped on", which would be neat.

[Cheesegear]

Get paint on models to the best of your ability. Who cares how it happens.

My point is/was, a model that is generally or mostly a single colour (e.g; Space Marine, Seraphon, Daemons, etc.), can be fairly easily brought to tabletop quality with an all-over basecoat, wash, and drybrush. A GW Blackshirt can teach you how to do all of those things in less than an hour (depending on the time it takes for the wash to dry). Even when painting bright yellow, I can have the entire Primaris half of Dark Imperium pretty much done in 4 hours (as far as the Power Armour goes), including breaks...The majority of that time is spent because to get the yellow I want, I need to do shade-lining, not washing. And even then, yeah. 4 hours.

Contrast, is for people who think basecoat, wash and drybrush, is too hard.

Why someone thinks it's too hard, is up to the individual. But that's still who it's for.

[Brookshw]

Turns out painting single-coloured models is too hard for babies. So GW made a new undercoat designed for dipping your models in a thicker glaze.

Can't tell how I feel about it but am willing to give it a shot. Maybe it'll be useful,.....maybe not.

[Cheesegear]

Can't tell how I feel about it but am willing to give it a shot. Maybe it'll be useful,.....maybe not.

I guarantee that Contrast will be useful... If you're the kind of person that it's aimed at.

Choose one or more of the following:
a) You have difficulty shading and highlighting,
b) You don't like shading and highlighting (especially if 'it takes too long'),
c) Your desired unit or batch is predominantly painted a single colour that is conveniently one of the colours offered.
d) You have no interest in photographing - or having people look at - your models closer than 30cm.

If you, personally are one or more of those things, then Contrast Paints are for you.

[Avaris]

Personally, I’m thinking of giving it a go on scenery, possibly followed by drybrushing. I absolutely can do the approach of base plus shade there, but it takes a while to get a decent effect, and scenery is low on my priorities!

[Wraith]

I guarantee that Contrast will be useful... If you're the kind of person that it's aimed at.

I still don't have a problem with this. You and I have both been painting models for 20 years, that I know of, and we both learned to do it the "hard" way to the point that practice means its no longer "hard" for us.

But I don't need other people to have to learn the "hard" way if they don't want to. The technology is there to make it easier for them and they will have an easier time going on to more complex techniques as their confidence improves - I'm happy about that, and just wish it had been easier for me at the time, too.

While I don't think its deliberate, what I'm getting from the posts critical of the Contrast paints is sounding a lot like vitriol; that if you don't paint the "hard" way then you're not "good" enough.
I mean, yes - Contrast paints probably won't look as good as 3-step basing and shading. So what? Would you like a list of people who HAVEN'T won the Slayer Sword and to criticise all of them for being scrubs, too?

I just.... don't get why so many people have sneered at the idea. If you don't want or need them, then don't use them and leave them to people who do. And I am of course using the Royal "You" rather than directing this solely at Cheesegear, if it wasn't clear.

Personally, I’m thinking of giving it a go on scenery, possibly followed by drybrushing. I absolutely can do the approach of base plus shade there, but it takes a while to get a decent effect, and scenery is low on my priorities!

Hell yes; the less time I can spend painting plastic squares depicting rusty steel "bulkheads", the better.

[Cheesegear]

I mean, yes - Contrast paints probably won't look as good as 3-step basing and shading.

Correct.

Here's the thing you should takeaway from Contrast Paints; Speed. ...That is the way they're being marketed. Speed. Up to and including making a point out of the time it took for studio painters to paint the amount of models they did, in time for Warhammer Fest.

However, if you look at the shots of the models...They look bad. The studio examples, look bad.

This is the same trap that a lot of beginner airbrushers fall into. If you smash out the basecoat-and-wash in 10 minutes, you're basically done, right? Except if you're going to highlight the details, then the fact that you didn't highlight the basecoat, is going to stand out, and make your model, look bad.

I could paint every single one of my Imperial Fists, right now; Corax White basecoat, then Lamenters Yellow Glaze. It looks like ****.
So I don't do it.

This is one of the new Contrast paints for the same scheme;

Spoiler: Yellow

Show

It doesn't look much better than the way I already don't do it. I think the image is also a bit disingenous 'cause it doesn't show it looks when the other details of the model (particularly metallics) have been properly highlighted.

That's my problem.
Like I said earlier, 'basecoat, wash, drybrush' works for the majority of models. Your local blackshirt can teach you how to do it in less than an hour. Then all's it takes is practice. Once you know how to do 'basecoats' you can smash out a squad of 10 in about an hour (total).

And that's my takeaway.

a) Spend an hour (total) basecoating, washing and drybrushing, and get some decent models. The thing is, it isn't hard. Size of the paintbrush. Amount of paint you put on your brush. The vast majority of it is done by just not overloading the amount of paint you have for the size of your brush.
b) Spend 10 minutes and get a worse result.

Which leads me to what I said; Who are Contrast Paints aimed at?
People who don't have motor skills - for whatever reason.
People who don't have patience and/or time (by 'time' I mean, +30-60 minutes, Contrast is only your basecoat. It doesn't do detail work, so you still have to spend time doing that anyway).
People who paint armies with dominant colours.
People who don't care about critique.

None of those are necessarily negative, and you could have extenuating circumstances for any of them (e.g; Disability and who gives a **** about critiquing terrain?). But that is, how it is.

One last one, which I didn't really think of until just now...

Having 'one brush' and 'one paint' to do all your basecoating needs is also cheaper.

[Voidhawk]

I am one of the people Contrast is aimed at, so let me explain why.

I'm into 40k for the awesome hilarious universe first, the gaming and tiny-men shooting each other second, the social part third, and the Your-Dudes-forge-a-narrative fourth. Painting doesn't get on the list at all, not fifth or anywhere.

(Converting models to change their appearance does get a spot. When assembling new minis, I take the time to consider the aesthetics/tactics of every possible combination of limbs/weapons/etc until I find the narrative/strategy of the squad/monster that I want. I occasionally take a kit and slice/rearrange the pieces to better fit how I think the model should look. I just have no interest in painting them afterwards. I bet you didn't expect to hear that.)

I share the view that well painted models are more fun on the tabletop. I respect the level of craftsmanship that goes into them. But I have considered how long it takes to get decent, how long it takes to do an entire army at even a rubbish level, and how quickly models have recently been made unusable by nerfs, and have judged that it's simply not a worthy time expenditure for the level of enjoyment gained.

Afterall, what's the point of putting time into making them look better on the tabletop if a few months down the line they'll be put back in a box and never come out again? I can use that time for literally anything else; I have a life, and 40k isn't my only hobby.

Then your minis will continue to look sucky; what bothers me is that they are giving the impression that its good for people with no skill and no interest in getting better. Its not. It saves time, sure, but if you couldnt paint with regular paints before, it will still be the same mess, just slightly more shaded and highlighted.

This is literally all I have ever wanted painting wise. And I have told GW this before in surveys: Q - "Why don't you enjoy the painting aspect of the hobby?", A - "It takes too long".

I literally don't care if they look "sucky" at the end. I don't care what you think. Would you prefer if they were grey? Contrast paints will reduce the number of grey-plastic armies on the tabletop, guaranteed.

I guarantee that Contrast will be useful... If you're the kind of person that it's aimed at.

Choose one or more of the following:
a) You have difficulty shading and highlighting,
b) You don't like shading and highlighting (especially if 'it takes too long'),
c) Your desired unit or batch is predominantly painted a single colour that is conveniently one of the colours offered.
d) You have no interest in photographing - or having people look at your models closer than 30cm critique your models.

If you, personally are one or more of those things, then Contrast Paints are for you.

Yup, that's me and pretty much my entire playgroup. It's not even that I find shading/highlighting/drybrushing hard; I have a couple of decently painted minis here and there, it's just that when I put them on the table my brain goes "That's nice... it took X hours wasted to get it nice".

Again: I understand why people get a feeling of pride for well painted minis, and like to show them off online. But it's simply not what I do 40k for. I'm not looking for criticism, I'm not looking for advice, I'm not looking for ways to get better. I'm literally only looking for ways to make it quicker and cheaper.

In my ideal world, I'd want to be able to do an entire 2000pt army (including tanks, but not necessarily including characters) in roughly two 1 hour sessions with a gap for drying between them. That's how much effort being painted is worth to me.