What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

[Lacuna Caster]

To paraphrase Thor, “Look, whatever plan you have that involves me fixing everything for you, I can guarantee there’s some dumb God rule that prevents me from doing so”.

Leaving aside the slight problem that this appears to be exactly what Thor is doing in an earlier strip, Durkon is talking about Thor directly intervening in a physical sense on the material plane. All I'm talking about is sending information.

[woweedd]

So what if Miko correctly interpreted the Twelve Gods' will? What if they did want her to destroy the gate to make sure Redcloak and Xykon couldn't harness its power? After all, maybe they expected that the city was lost and there was no way to keep the Gate safe despite Soon's protection and so decided that the only safe way to do things was to just destroy it.

That was literally the closest anyone has ever come to destroying Xykon. He was two sword swings away from being reduced to a particulary feeble ghost, trapped inside a random amulet for the day or two until Hinjo could arrange a nice dip in a volcano. He was as good as done until Miko intervened.

[Keltest]

Leaving aside the slight problem that this appears to be exactly what Thor is doing in an earlier strip, Durkon is talking about Thor directly intervening in a physical sense on the material plane. All I'm talking about is sending information.

Per Redcloak, gods explicitly cant do that. OOTS has been far more consistent about this than you seem to believe.

[Resileaf]

That was literally the closest anyone has ever come to destroying Xykon. He was two sword swings away from being reduced to a particulary feeble ghost, trapped inside a random amulet for the day or two until Hinjo could arrange a nice dip in a volcano. He was as good as done until Miko intervened.

How close was he to death when Miko freed herself from her cell?

[woweedd]

Leaving aside the slight problem that this appears to be exactly what Thor is doing in an earlier strip, Durkon is talking about Thor directly intervening in a physical sense on the material plane. All I'm talking about is sending information.

A. Who said that village was on the Prime Material? For all we know, that’s one of the outer planes. It’s just about the only place two gods could or would battle openly.
B. All indicator is that there’s no such thing as a “Mini-Godsmooy”. The only way to get more then a yes or no answer from the Gods is to cast the Commune spell, which isn’t exactly unlimited either. Even Clerics don’t have unlimited acess to the Gods, by D&D rules.

[woweedd]

How close was he to death when Miko freed herself from her cell?

Well, he was prone at Soon’s feet within 5 seconds.

[Resileaf]

Well, he was prone at Soon’s feet within 5 seconds.

Which is not necessarily a thing the Twelve Gods could have predicted at the time. For all we know, they expected Soon to be defeated.

[Lacuna Caster]

Per Redcloak, gods explicitly cant do that. OOTS has been far more consistent about this than you seem to believe.

And yet, per Durkula, they obviously can. So no, Keltest, I don't think it has been especially consistent about this.

A. Who said that village was on the Prime Material? For all we know, that’s one of the outer planes. It’s just about the only place two gods could or would battle openly.

But the whole point to the Gods' mutual non-aggression-pact is that the Gods aren't supposed to be battling openly at all, on the material plane or anywhere else. So this strip doesn't make sense unless... I dunno, Thor and Surtur secretly agreed to some staged public wrestling-bout for PR purposes and Surtur went ahead and devoured a bunch of souls regardless.

A more reasonable argument would be that the early strips were penned before any serious world-building applied to OOTSverse and should be considered apocryphal at best, but hey, you do you.

B. All indicator is that there’s no such thing as a “Mini-Godsmoot”.

Okay, but why? At some point, a sufficient preponderance of 'dumb god rules' starts to make the Gods themselves look pretty dumb.

[Razade]

Okay, but why? At some point, a sufficient preponderance of 'dumb god rules' starts to make the Gods themselves look pretty dumb.

By George. I think you've got it. The Gods are dumb. If they weren't cagey, nervous, paranoid types set in their ways we wouldn't have a story. They need to be dumb or else the story wouldn't happen. What so far has led you to think they weren't dumb?

[Keltest]

And yet, per Durkula, they obviously can. So no, Keltest, I don't think it has been especially consistent about this.


But the whole point to the Gods' mutual non-aggression-pact is that the Gods aren't supposed to be battling openly at all, on the material plane or anywhere else. So this strip doesn't make sense unless... I dunno, Thor and Surtur secretly agreed to some staged public wrestling-bout for PR purposes and Surtur went ahead and devoured a bunch of souls regardless.

A more reasonable argument would be that the early strips were penned before any serious world-building applied to OOTSverse and should be considered apocryphal at best, but hey, you do you.


Okay, but why? At some point, a sufficient preponderance of 'dumb god rules' starts to make the Gods themselves look pretty dumb.

Because the gods span all the 9 different alignments and have wildly differing interests, and past a certain point that's the only way for them to interact on the same project at all without everything just going to hell.

And Greg was using a spell to communicate with Hel, which means he initiated the contact.

[hroþila]

Divine fights have never been presented as unthinkable. Thor and Surtur have the same quiddity, so they can fight without creating a Snarl. We've also seen Thor about to fight Loki. We've seen several gods about to attack the Dark One when he was still weak enough that the danger of a new Snarl was probably negligible.

[Peelee]

Oh, I'm mostly indifferent to how much or how little the Gods 'micromanage' the physical world. What I would like is a story with some degree of baseline consistency as to how much management is generally going on.

If that were true, it would be far easier to suggest other fixes (e.g. Hel not talking to the vampire) than to suggest that Miko, the rest of the Sapphire Guard, and most other clerics and paladins in the world similarly get regular and frequent video calls to the heavens.

[Vinyadan]

Divine fights have never been presented as unthinkable. Thor and Surtur have the same quiddity, so they can fight without creating a Snarl. We've also seen Thor about to fight Loki. We've seen several gods about to attack the Dark One when he was still weak enough that the danger of a new Snarl was probably negligible.

Loki... Loki's quiddity turned green when he felt ill! That's it! That' the solution!

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

Nah, see, that's just what it looks like when the the light from theosophic particles mixes with light filtered through the traditional green status-ailment bubbles that gods and mortals have in common. You can't see the bubbles themselves because they're too tiny to make out individually from this distance - remember, the gods are huge in their natural fighting forms - but the green mixed with the partially-filtered portion of the yellow spectrum given off by Northern-quiddity particles comes out to a lime color when it comes time for your eyes to process it all.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Presumably, theyre stopped by the same thing that prevents every other god from just sending down a divine letter to any given follower whenever they want to. "the gods cant just manifest and manipulate the world outside of very well defined circumstances and methods" has been a pretty consistent rule in OOTS, and indeed most D&D based worlds.

And most fantasy worlds, since most writers realize that it's not very interesting to have problems solved by gods manifesting and just fixing stuff. (With the occasional exceptions, but those tend to either have very low-power gods or blur the line between powerful mortals and gods.)

Oh, I'm mostly indifferent to how much or how little the Gods 'micromanage' the physical world. What I would like is a story with some degree of baseline consistency as to how much management is generally going on.

It's pretty consistent. Gods only "directly" intervene by giving their servants certain powers, and sending them visions when strictly necessary.

[Mightymosy]

In Comic, Hilgya prays to Loki and Loki answers her and tells her where to find Durkon.

There is no reason in the comic why Thor should not have answered Durkon anytime Durkon prayed for advice, nor any stated reason why the Twelve Southern Gods COULD not answer Miko's prayers.

We see Thor DECLINING to speak to Durkon once, because he is fighting Surtur, but EVEN THEN he eventually takes the phone.

Not that I find it particularily disturbing or anything (this being a fantasy PARODY and all), but if you took the time and took the story seriously (which I advice against, PARODY!!!), I would call this a plot inconsistency (not mentioning he evil word, I won't) unless someone gives a convincing explanation.

An explanation "Thats how stories work" is not convincing, it needs to be logical within the framework set by the story, not by outside concerns.

[woweedd]

In Comic, Hilgya prays to Loki and Loki answers her and tells her where to find Durkon.

There is no reason in the comic why Thor should not have answered Durkon anytime Durkon prayed for advice, nor any stated reason why the Twelve Southern Gods COULD not answer Miko's prayers.

We see Thor DECLINING to speak to Durkon once, because he is fighting Surtur, but EVEN THEN he eventually takes the phone.

Not that I find it particularily disturbing or anything (this being a fantasy PARODY and all), but if you took the time and took the story seriously (which I advice against, PARODY!!!), I would call this a plot inconsistency (not mentioning he evil word, I won't) unless someone gives a convincing explanation.

An explanation "Thats how stories work" is not convincing, it needs to be logical within the framework set by the story, not by outside concerns.

Putting aside that, this being a parody, “that’s how stories work” is an actual reason, since the laws of narrative are actual tangible forces in OOTS-world, it’s stated that the link between god and cleric during prayers is non-verbal. The only feedback you get is that they’re still happy enough to give you spells. In the Surtur comic, Thor wasn’t “talking” to Durkon, merely granting him spells as he requested. If I remember correctly, it’s stated that the only reason Loki was able to help Hilgya was finding a loophole in the god rules that would normally stop him from doing that.

[Vinyadan]

Nah, see, that's just what it looks like when the the light from theosophic particles mixes with light filtered through the traditional green status-ailment bubbles that gods and mortals have in common. You can't see the bubbles themselves because they're too tiny to make out individually from this distance - remember, the gods are huge in their natural fighting forms - but the green mixed with the partially-filtered portion of the yellow spectrum given off by Northern-quiddity particles comes out to a lime color when it comes time for your eyes to process it all.

That's a remarkably elaborate response. Well done!

[Peelee]

In Comic, Hilgya prays to Loki and Loki answers her and tells her where to find Durkon.

There is no reason in the comic why Thor should not have answered Durkon anytime Durkon prayed for advice, nor any stated reason why the Twelve Southern Gods COULD not answer Miko's prayers.

We see Thor DECLINING to speak to Durkon once, because he is fighting Surtur, but EVEN THEN he eventually takes the phone.

Not that I find it particularily disturbing or anything (this being a fantasy PARODY and all), but if you took the time and took the story seriously (which I advice against, PARODY!!!), I would call this a plot inconsistency (not mentioning he evil word, I won't) unless someone gives a convincing explanation.

An explanation "Thats how stories work" is not convincing, it needs to be logical within the framework set by the story, not by outside concerns.

Something logical within thy framework of the story: paladins lack any spells that let them contact the gods, while clerics do have access to such spells (eg Commune). Durkon, to the best of our knowledge, never cast Commune. He certainly never did so on-screen, at least. The vamp likely cast it, and Hel likely took several liberties with the spell (which we know can happen, since Thor similarly abused Control Weather).

[hroþila]

Something logical within thy framework of the story: paladins lack any spells that let them contact the gods, while clerics do have access to such spells (eg Commune). Durkon, to the best of our knowledge, never cast Commune. He certainly never did so on-screen, at least. The vamp likely cast it, and Hel likely took several liberties with the spell (which we know can happen, since Thor similarly abused Control Weather).

Hmm, apparently standard, no-tricks Commune only allows for five-word phrases at most, and that's under specific circumstances.

Don't (1) screw (2) this (3) up (4)

Hmmm.

No (1) pressure (2), though (3)

HMMMMMM.

Yes this is silly and pointless.

[Peelee]

Yes this is silly and pointless.

But silly and pointless is my entire state of being!

[hroþila]

But silly and pointless is my entire state of being!

OK, let's run with this theory then! Why is Jirix LYING to Redcloak? Clearly, the Dark One couldn't bear to talk to him in person. Clearly, there's no army. Clearly, the Dark One's afterlife is super lame and if Redcloak found out he'd ditch the Plan. Clearly, it's one thing to

Spoiler: SoD

Show

kill your little brother

, it is quite another to be the (non-literal) paladin of this guy.

[Peelee]

OK, let's run with this theory then! Why is Jirix LYING to Redcloak? Clearly, the Dark One couldn't bear to talk to him in person. Clearly, there's no army. Clearly, the Dark One's afterlife is super lame and if Redcloak found out he'd ditch the Plan. Clearly, it's one thing to

Spoiler: SoD

Show

kill your little brother

, it is quite another to be the (non-literal) paladin of this guy.

.... I now need to be a paladin of Lenny.

[Aquillion]

If I remember correctly, it’s stated that the only reason Loki was able to help Hilgya was finding a loophole in the god rules that would normally stop him from doing that.

It's not explicitly stated, but it's heavily implied - she kept praying for guidance to help kill Durkon, and Loki was clearly ignoring her until the current crisis started, at which point bam, she gets told exactly where to go.

The fact that Loki didn't give her any further information heavily implies that he couldn't, and the fact that he sent her specifically and nobody else implies that he was only able to do so because her request to find Durkon gave him an excuse to send her after Greg within the rules.

Of course, another possibility from all this is that Loki is better at cheating the rules than the Southern Pantheon, which would fit his character.

[Mightymosy]

Did Hilgya use some sort of Commune spell? I don't remeber such a thing being mentioned.

Durkon prayed -> no answer, then answer for spell
Durkon prayed/cried for advice -> no answer
Miko prayed -> no answer
Hilgya prayed -> no answer at first, then specifics where to find Durkon

I don't remember any Commune spells being used, so please someone tell me.
I don't think it's particularily important, but I like it better if things actually make more sense, as compared to slightly less sense

[Snails]

It's not explicitly stated, but it's heavily implied - she kept praying for guidance to help kill Durkon, and Loki was clearly ignoring her until the current crisis started, at which point bam, she gets told exactly where to go.

That is my interpretation, too. But how do we square this with the frost giants getting sent against the Mechane by their god? Was this god not at the godsmoot so the hypothesized rule did not apply to him, though he could act freely in ways that please Hel? Or is there some other loophole?

[Fyraltari]

That is my interpretation, too. But how do we square this with the frost giants getting sent against the Mechane by their god? Was this god not at the godsmoot so the hypothesized rule did not apply to him, though he could act freely in ways that please Hel? Or is there some other loophole?

My guess is that Gods aren’t allowed to order their Clerics to attack other Clerics during the Moot as part of the whole truce thing. This doesn’t apply to the Order and the Mechane so Thrym could order a hit job on them but Thor and Loki can’t tell their people about the new church of Hel. However Loki was allowed to answer Hilgya’s prayer (which may not have involved a direct communication but something like her casting a Divination spell to know where Durkon is and getting coordinates or something) but not tell her anything else.

[Doug Lampert]

That is my interpretation, too. But how do we square this with the frost giants getting sent against the Mechane by their god? Was this god not at the godsmoot so the hypothesized rule did not apply to him, though he could act freely in ways that please Hel? Or is there some other loophole?

NPCs casting commune or planeshift off panel to discuss things with their god does not need any mention on panel. Failure to mention this would not constitute a plot hole.

You don't get to say, "But there's no mention of Hilgya casting commune and therefor she did not."
She could have done so, she says she was asking, she could easily have been asking with a spell, so Loki telling her stuff is not an indication that the gods can talk to mortals WITHOUT the mortal initiating it through a spell.

Similarly for the Frost Giants, they had multiple clerics, they could cast reasonable level spells, they may well have cast commune for some reason, you get lots of questions, if you've used the ones you called about then you may as well use the rest to ask what you else you need to do. I've had churches in game worlds that made contact at least once a week just to assure that there was no problem they should be dealing with.

[Snails]

My guess is that Gods aren’t allowed to order their Clerics to attack other Clerics during the Moot as part of the whole truce thing. This doesn’t apply to the Order and the Mechane so Thrym could order a hit job on them but Thor and Loki can’t tell their people about the new church of Hel. However Loki was allowed to answer Hilgya’s prayer (which may not have involved a direct communication but something like her casting a Divination spell to know where Durkon is and getting coordinates or something) but not tell her anything else.

Well reasoned. It feels right, even if I am not entirely sure if the details bear careful examination.

It makes a certain amount of sense to not allow the arranging of hits on clergy while the godsmoot is in session, as that is a reason why a high priest might feel obliged to not attend. And by one powerful high priest not attending, enemy churches might wonder if they have to hold their own high priest back, for fear of attack. Such a dynamic would undermine the point of the godsmoot: to give the pantheons safe means to negotiate, both within the pantheon and between pantheons. Everyone needs to feel that attending is the safer bet overall, even if there are some kinds of potential risks in doing so.

[Snails]

NPCs casting commune or planeshift off panel to discuss things with their god does not need any mention on panel. Failure to mention this would not constitute a plot hole.

I am not doubting such things.

The question is why it seems like Loki is using a loophole with Hilgya while the Frost Giants seem to be acting on direct orders.

One possible answer is because that is the best way to manipulate Hilgya -- even a god giving her orders would not work.

Fyraltari's answer is a very good one, and one can easily fill in off panels spells as answering the details.