What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

[Keltest]

This is like saying that if Roy wanted traps disarmed, he should've gone Rogue, rather than, say, taking twenty seconds to talk to Haley. Miko probably has several mid-level clerics under her direct command, and they certainly exist within the Guard at large. So let's put two and two together, shall we?

We did. You complained that it didn't make any sense that we got four. Lacuna, what is your objective here? Is it just to tick everybody off by arbitrarily declaring that things don't make any sense, even though youre the only person here who seems unable to grok them? Or are you just legitimately convinced that you know better than everybody else about these things? Because so far the only things you've shown me that actually don't make sense are your opinions.

[Peelee]

This is like saying that if Roy wanted traps disarmed, he should've gone Rogue, rather than, say, taking twenty seconds to talk to Haley.

Not at all similar; Roy wanted to be a fighter for specific, personal reasons. Miko wanted to be a paladin because....?

Miko probably has several mid-level clerics under her direct command, and they certainly exist within the Guard at large. So let's put two and two together, shall we?

Ya know what, let's indeed do some math. Miko works with clerics in the SG. Other members of the SG are shown to dislike Miko. Miko has been shown to pray to the gods for guidance rather than asking a cleric. Miko has been shown to be incredibly egotistical and self assured in her own superiority. You can infer either that she believed her own prayers and interpretations of the gods signs were enough, or you can infer that none of the clerics were willing to begrudge her any favors, or whatever else you want. Those are much better avenues than claiming they were not the actions you would take, and thus should not have been what Miko did.

[Resileaf]

Ya know what, let's indeed do some math. Miko works with clerics in the SG. Other members of the SG are shown to dislike Miko. Miko has been shown to pray to the gods for guidance rather than asking a cleric. Miko has been shown to be incredibly egotistical and self assured in her own superiority. You can infer either that she believed her own prayers and interpretations of the gods signs were enough, or you can infer that none of the clerics were willing to begrudge her any favors, or whatever else you want. Those are much better avenues than claiming they were not the actions you would take, and thus should not have been what Miko did.

Alternatively, Miko doesn't know that the spell 'Commune' exists because she has no ranks in spellcraft.

(Not that I think she's blameless, but I'm more inclined to blame an undiagnosed and untreated mental issue on my side)

[Ruck]

We did. You complained that it didn't make any sense that we got four. Lacuna, what is your objective here? Is it just to tick everybody off by arbitrarily declaring that things don't make any sense, even though youre the only person here who seems unable to grok them? Or are you just legitimately convinced that you know better than everybody else about these things? Because so far the only things you've shown me that actually don't make sense are your opinions.

Lacuna's objective is proving the men made a duplicate key, that's how they got the strawberries that Miko actually is every bit as chosen and special as she thinks she is, that the narrative has failed her by not complying, and therefore, there must be some flaw in the narrative that proves this is true. (And, by extension, some flaw in all of us who don't agree, since clearly we're simply not seeing the issue properly, unlike Lacuna.)

[Peelee]

Alternatively, Miko doesn't know that the spell 'Commune' exists because she has no ranks in spellcraft.

I'll never say no to a viable alternate theory!

[Lacuna Caster]

Not at all similar; Roy wanted to be a fighter for specific, personal reasons...

What on earth does this have to do with it? Roy and Miko's career motivations are irrelevant to their ability to reasonably requisition services from peers and subordinates within their organisation.

Ya know what, let's indeed do some math. Miko works with clerics in the SG. Other members of the SG are shown to dislike Miko. Miko has been shown to pray to the gods for guidance rather than asking a cleric. Miko has been shown to be incredibly egotistical and self assured in her own superiority...

Lacuna's objective is proving the men made a duplicate key, that's how they got the strawberries that Miko actually is every bit as chosen and special as she thinks she is, that the narrative has failed her by not complying...

Alternatively, Miko doesn't know that the spell 'Commune' exists because she has no ranks in spellcraft...

The spellcraft skill allows you to identify spells and magic items whose function would not otherwise be obvious to the naked eye. She doesn't need ranks in spellcraft in order to know that various highly-impactful spell-categories exist, any more than Roy needs ranks in such a skill in order to know that Planar Ally and Sending spells do, or any more than someone in our world needs to be an electrical engineer or physics PhD in order to know that telephones and aeroplanes exist.

I am not trying to argue that Miko has an infallible spiritual mandate and/or perfect information about all forms of D&D class mechanics, but I am not going to accept that she is some of kind of drooling idiot backbirth who knows less about the world she inhabits than a 10-year child would know about ours, or spent the last 28 years of her life living under a rock.

[Peelee]

What on earth does this have to do with it? Roy and Miko's career motivations are irrelevant to their ability to reasonably requisition services from peers and subordinates within their organisation.

Roy: "I want to be a fighter! I'll fight things! I shall be a great warrior, with my ancestral greatsword at my side!" *years later* "oh, hey, i might encounter traps. Guess I should find some way to deal with that."

Miko: "I am the chosen one of the gods themselves. Time to pick a divine class, time to pick a divine class, time to pick.... hey how about this one that doesn't let me talk to the gods that I'm a chosen one of."

You're the one who wanted to compare Miko to Roy as far as why they chose their classes, don't get all huffy at me when that blows up in your face.

Also, you keep assuming that Miko can just requisition stuff from others. If anything, having read How the Paladin Got His Scar should have given you the idea that the SG Commander (even generously assuming that's what Miko was) is not nearly as autonomous as you are trying to make us believe.

[Lacuna Caster]

You're the one who wanted to compare Miko to Roy as far as why they chose their classes...

No, you made this comparison, and I simply pointed out that none of this prevents either from requesting services from teammates with relevant capabilities.

Also, you keep assuming that Miko can just requisition stuff from others. If anything, having read How the Paladin Got His Scar should have given you the idea that the SG Commander (even generously assuming that's what Miko was) is not nearly as autonomous as you are trying to make us believe.

Oddly, having read The Order of the Stick, it seems that Miko is pretty accustomed to having her orders obeyed, including by fellow members of the Guard. I will grant that various aspects of Miko's narrative role have been in a state of apparent flux over time, but arguing that she wouldn't be allowed to ask for a Commune spell is baffling.

[Resileaf]

The spellcraft skill allows you to identify spells and magic items whose function would not otherwise be obvious to the naked eye. She doesn't need ranks in spellcraft in order to know that various highly-impactful spell-categories exist, any more than Roy needs ranks in such a skill in order to know that Planar Ally and Sending spells do, or any more than someone in our world needs to be an electrical engineer or physics PhD in order to know that telephones and aeroplanes exist.

I am not trying to argue that Miko has an infallible spiritual mandate and/or perfect information about all forms of D&D class mechanics, but I am not going to accept that she is some of kind of drooling idiot backbirth who knows less about the world she inhabits than a 10-year child would know about ours, or spent the last 28 years of her life living under a rock.

She read most of the 'Explosive runes' spell and did not realize that she was indeed reading an 'Explosive runes' spell.

[Lacuna Caster]

She read most of the 'Explosive runes' spell and did not realize that she was indeed reading an 'Explosive runes' spell.

...Maybe because that's a relatively obscure spell?

Look, there is nothing particularly subjective about this. The Sapphire Guard has repeatedly summoned extraplanar beings from the celestial realm to serve as judges, counsel and reinforcements. Miko is personally present for these ceremonies or the immediate aftermath. It is not plausible to suggest that she just... isn't aware that there are channels of communication between the mortal and Godly realms. She has to know this.

[Peelee]

No, you made this comparison

Spoiler: Gaslighting works better when I can't directly quote and link to you making the comparison, ya know.

Show

Which is mostly Paladins - a class which is very explicitly not allowed to talk to the gods. If Miko wanted actual divine conversation, she could have gone Cleric. Instead, she wanted to be special. She wanted to interpret their will through prayer. Well, what she wants, she gets.

This is like saying that if Roy wanted traps disarmed, he should've gone Rogue, rather than, say, taking twenty seconds to talk to Haley.

I simply pointed out that none of this prevents either from requesting services from teammates with relevant capabilities.

We never saw Roy trying to disarm traps himself. We have seen Miko trying to get guidance from the gods herself. We can very reasonably infer that she, for whatever reason (and more than one has been put forth), does not get guidance from the Clerics. That you refuse to accept that doesn't make your position any better.

...Maybe because that's a relatively obscure spell?

[citation required]

[Keltest]

...Maybe because that's a relatively obscure spell?

Look, there is nothing particularly subjective about this. The Sapphire Guard has repeatedly summoned extraplanar beings from the celestial realm to serve as judges, counsel and reinforcements. Miko is personally present for these ceremonies or the immediate aftermath. It is not plausible to suggest that she just... isn't aware that there are channels of communication between the mortal and Godly realms. She has to know this.

And for some reason you conclude that, rather than simply choosing not to use them she... is somehow prevented from doing so by some mysterious means?


I don't even get what your complaint here is. At risk of repeating myself, when Miko prays for divine guidance, she is seeking validation, not instruction. She isn't actually interested in following divine will if it deviates from her own will. That's literally the entire point of her character arc.

[Lacuna Caster]

Spoiler: Gaslighting works better when I can't directly quote and link to you making the comparison, ya know.

Show

I am not gaslighting you, Peelee. You started out by saying that Miko should have picked some other career path, and then I pointed out why this line of argument was daft (she doesn't need to pick that career in order to have channels of communication with the Gods.) It continues to be daft. Stop making it.

We never saw Roy trying to disarm traps himself. We have seen Miko trying to get guidance from the gods herself. We can very reasonably infer that she, for whatever reason (and more than one has been put forth), does not get guidance from the Clerics. That you refuse to accept that doesn't make your position any better.

What kind of argument is this supposed to be? We assume the text is infallible and work backwards from that to constrain what kind of evidence and reasoning we allow from the same text? Pardon my skepticism, but no thanks.

[Resileaf]

I don't even get what your complaint here is. At risk of repeating myself, when Miko prays for divine guidance, she is seeking validation, not instruction. She isn't actually interested in following divine will if it deviates from her own will. That's literally the entire point of her character arc.

If you ask me, she's asking for validation through instructions.

[Keltest]

If you ask me, she's asking for validation through instructions.

If that were the case, when she actually got a very direct and obvious message from the gods, she would have listened instead of assuming that being fired in the most visible and spectacular way possible was just a test. That she chose to ignore the only actual divine sign she got about her path says a lot.

[Lacuna Caster]

And for some reason you conclude that, rather than simply choosing not to use them she... is somehow prevented from doing so by some mysterious means?

No. I'm arguing that either (A) the Twelve Gods have neglected to establish channels of communication with their senior followers, which makes them pretty stupid even by the standards of other OOTSverse deities, and/or (B) there are logical inconsistencies within the text when you consider the magical and personnel resources ostensibly available to the Guard vs. their observed behaviours.

If you ask me, she's asking for validation through instructions.

Exactly. Whether Miko is looking for validation or not is irrelevant- or to the extent that it matters, getting an actual personalised message from the Gods would presumably be at least as validating as mumbling into the wall and hoping that they hear you. To suggest that Miko doesn't want to hear from the Gods would imply that she has some kind of subconscious fear of inadequacy, which... well, would not be a theory most of her critics espouse. In any case, over the multiple years she served with the Guard, it's not really plausible that they couldn't arrange to talk with her.

[Keltest]

No. I'm arguing that either (A) the Twelve Gods have neglected to establish channels of communication with their senior followers, which makes them pretty stupid even by the standards of other OOTSverse deities, and/or (B) there are logical inconsistencies within the text when you consider the magical and personnel resources ostensibly available to the Guard vs. their observed behaviours.


Exactly. Whether Miko is looking for validation or not is irrelevant- or to the extent that it matters, getting an actual personalised message from the Gods would presumably be at least as validating as mumbling into the wall and hoping that they hear you. To suggest that Miko doesn't want to hear from the Gods would imply that she has some kind of subconscious fear of inadequacy, which... well, would not be a theory most of her critics espouse. In any case, over the multiple years she served with the Guard, it's not really plausible that they couldn't arrange to talk with her.

None of the Sapphire Guard are their "senior followers." They appointed themselves to a specific job on behalf of the 12, and are an organization entirely separate from the priestly hierarchy. While the job they do is important in the same way the police force of a city is important, that doesn't mean they have any special channels to the absolute top of the hierarchy. Again, youre complaining that the top detective in Chicago doesn't have a personal line to the president of the US.

Also, as I said, Miko DID get a personalized message from the gods. She promptly ignored it because she didn't like it.

[Lacuna Caster]

None of the Sapphire Guard are their "senior followers." They appointed themselves to a specific job on behalf of the 12, and are an organization entirely separate from the priestly hierarchy.

For the umpteenth time, Keltest, they factually and verifiably are not. We know, from Word of God along with textual evidence, that the Guard includes azurite clerics as part of it's general roster.

Also, as I said, Miko DID get a personalized message from the gods. She promptly ignored it because she didn't like it.

This isn't about how Miko might, in principle, react to such a message. (Although her early behaviour actually shows her being fairly accommodating of fresh evidence, and I don't imagine that a middle-aged dwarf she's never met would have more influence over her than the Gods themselves.)

It's about the problem that no such message was ever forthcoming- not for Miko, or for anyone in the Guard who might have been trusted with information about purple quiddities, nor for anyone else in Azure City who might have appreciated knowing about a massive hobgoblin army on the march. Why is it, exactly, that the Twelve are hovering anxiously overhead ready to hit the Fall button when Miko snaps, and apparently oblivious to an unfolding crisis at every prior juncture?

[Keltest]

For the umpteenth time, Keltest, they factually and verifiably are not. We know, from Word of God along with textual evidence, that the Guard includes azurite clerics as part of it's general roster.

Which does not make them part of the hierarchy. Notably, we have also seen exactly 0 clerics in any sort of leadership position in the Guard.

That there are clerics in the guard does not mean the entire organization is of utmost importance.

This isn't about how Miko might, in principle, react to such a message. (Although her early behaviour actually shows her being fairly accommodating of fresh evidence, and I don't imagine that a middle-aged dwarf she's never met would have more influence over her than the Gods themselves.)

It's about the problem that no such message was ever forthcoming- not for Miko, or for anyone in the Guard who might have been trusted with information about purple quiddities, nor for anyone else in Azure City who might have appreciated knowing about a massive hobgoblin army on the march. Why is it, exactly, that the Twelve are hovering anxiously overhead ready to hit the Fall button when Miko snaps, and apparently oblivious to an unfolding crisis at every prior juncture?

Because for the umpteenth time, the gods are only allowed to affect the mortal world in strict and well defined ways, such as by granting clerics their powers and through their specific godly domains. Unless one of the Twelve had "talking paladins out of bad decisions" as one of their domains, they cant do squat until Miko actually does something that requires them to personally respond, like Falling. This isn't a plot hole, this is just you intentionally failing to understand.

[Vinyadan]

Unless one of the Twelve had "talking paladins out of bad decisions" as one of their domains, they cant do squat until Miko actually does something that requires them to personally respond, like Falling.

I can imagine how that would go... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m4a-bl4alo

[GreatWyrmGold]

This is like saying that if Roy wanted traps disarmed, he should've gone Rogue, rather than, say, taking twenty seconds to talk to Haley.

That would be a fair point, but you're overlooking a critical point: Roy isn't Miko. If Roy wanted to talk with the gods, he'd ask Durkon for help. If Miko wanted traps disarmed, she'd run straight at them and rely on evasion and "the Twelve Gods' favor" to keep her safe.

Miko probably has several mid-level clerics under her direct command

[citation needed]
Again, Miko is the highest-level paladin in the Sapphire Guard, not the highest-ranked. She has never been seen exercising any kind of authority over anyone but her horse and her prisoners—and given how well the latter were treated, I'm pretty sure we'd see more clerics ducking into nearby corridors when she passes if she had any kind of influence over their punishment.

For the umpteenth time, Keltest, they factually and verifiably are not. We know, from Word of God along with textual evidence, that the Guard includes azurite clerics as part of it's general roster.

Have you heard of chaplains? They're priests who work in militaries around the world. They're officially noncombatants, but the Sapphire Guard's clerics seem to be more like medics than infantry (almost as if there's another class specializing in that), and I'm not sure the distinction matters to this discussion. Most major nations employ chaplains of many religions; by your logic, these armies must all be part of several different (often opposed) religious hierarchies.

[CriticalFailure]

What if Miko was never adopted by Shojo

[Ruck]

Spoiler: Gaslighting works better when I can't directly quote and link to you making the comparison, ya know.

Show

Huh, isn't it weird how often Lacuna has to simply lie about what's been said in these arguments about Miko?

[Fyraltari]

I don't imagine that a middle-aged dwarf she's never met would have more influence over her than the Gods themselves.)

Durkon isn’t middle-aged. He just got bald prematurely.

[hroþila]

Again, Miko is the highest-level paladin in the Sapphire Guard, not the highest-ranked. She has never been seen exercising any kind of authority over anyone but her horse and her prisoners—and given how well the latter were treated, I'm pretty sure we'd see more clerics ducking into nearby corridors when she passes if she had any kind of influence over their punishment.

For what it's worth, I got the impression that she outranked Hinjo at the very least, and I read her rebuking him over fraternizing with the prisoners as exercising her authority over him. I don't know whether the text outright states this, though.

[Mightymosy]

What on earth does this have to do with it? Roy and Miko's career motivations are irrelevant to their ability to reasonably requisition services from peers and subordinates within their organisation.




The spellcraft skill allows you to identify spells and magic items whose function would not otherwise be obvious to the naked eye. She doesn't need ranks in spellcraft in order to know that various highly-impactful spell-categories exist, any more than Roy needs ranks in such a skill in order to know that Planar Ally and Sending spells do, or any more than someone in our world needs to be an electrical engineer or physics PhD in order to know that telephones and aeroplanes exist.

I am not trying to argue that Miko has an infallible spiritual mandate and/or perfect information about all forms of D&D class mechanics, but I am not going to accept that she is some of kind of drooling idiot backbirth who knows less about the world she inhabits than a 10-year child would know about ours, or spent the last 28 years of her life living under a rock.

You'll eventually have to accept this, because she is being painted that way, at least if you want to take the comic seriously and logically follow through - which I would advise against, personally. This is parody, especially during the golden and silver age of OotS. The robustness of the worldbuilding was constructed on the level of "Please don't touch or it might crumble! Here, enjoy some really funny jokes instead of thinking too hard!". And it worked REALLY well on that level, if you ask me.

I don't even get what your complaint here is. At risk of repeating myself, when Miko prays for divine guidance, she is seeking validation, not instruction.

Citation needed.

Because for the umpteenth time, the gods are only allowed to affect the mortal world in strict and well defined ways, such as by granting clerics their powers and through their specific godly domains. Unless one of the Twelve had "talking paladins out of bad decisions" as one of their domains, they cant do squat until Miko actually does something that requires them to personally respond, like Falling. This isn't a plot hole, this is just you intentionally failing to understand.

The gods can communicate, as shown in the comic. They can also take away divine magic.
Which is what is being discussed, I believe.

More to the point, Miko is seeking validation, not the truth, when she prays for guidance. Which you can see with her interpreting literally everything she can as divine validation in response to a prayer instead of, you know, actually looking at the ....

Citation needed.
Please point to a strip where the gods answer a prayer by Miko (which Gods, as established by the comic, CAN).

Why does Miko interprete anything and everything as indirect divine signals?
Maybe because she DOESN'T, you know, GET any direct communication.

Miko, in a way, behaves like someone in OUR world - we don't get direct divine contact, thus we choose to interprete or not interprete any sort of stuff as divine signs.

The difference is that in Miko's comic world there IS a way of divine communication.
HUGE difference.

Or they simply don't care about the mortals, being more interested in other aspects of the world (such as, say, its fjords). To some humans, puppies are pets. To others, pests that need to be put down. To yet others, a meal. The idea that all gods in OotS must care deeply about individual humans is an unsustainable premise.

Grey Wolf

The position that the Gods don't care or are too stupid to communicate when it would be helpful is holdable, I think.
What I (and I THINK Lacuna) are arguing is against the position that the gods are POWERLESS to intervene in any way shape or form.

I'm complaining, in part, because we've recently had an extended plotline that involves several OOTSverse deities explicitly conniving to manipulate mortal affairs, all while using several channels of direct and indirect communication with their senior followers to do so. It is reasonable why to ask why the single organisation of the planet that was probably best-equipped and motivated to coordinate with the Gods for this purpose were, in practice, completely ignored by their own patrons and/or stunningly bad at their jobs.

I mean, this wasn't such a problem 900 strips ago when things like Commune and Wind Walk had never been introduced or referenced within the story, but you can't just shoehorn these elements in the plot later on without raising questions about the competence of other actors.

This is basically where I am as well.
Back then it was an arguable case either way, and one probably SHOULDN'T argue too hard either way, about background worldbuilding in a story that is meant to be taken as funny parody anyway.

But I get the notion that the comic is supposed to be taken seriously, now, with all the ethical lectures and stuff, and now it establishes stuff that retroatively makes other stuff from before look inconsistent.

The highest ranked floor worker in Wal-Mart is still just a floor worker. They don't get the executives' phone numbers, even if they can ask a manager to call for them.

People have made these comparisons for a while now (CEOs, presidents, companies etc)

And it just doesn't make sense.
The current book establishes that Thor can remember every single person who ever prayed to him, with no indication that the Southern gods are less powerful.

I don't think anyone here has a CEO on the same kind of magical power level.

[Peelee]

People have made these comparisons for a while now (CEOs, presidents, companies etc)

And it just doesn't make sense.
The current book establishes that Thor can remember every single person who ever prayed to him, with no indication that the Southern gods are less powerful.

I don't think anyone here has a CEO on the same kind of magical power level.

What relevance does that have? Unless you wish to claim Thor personally answered every prayer and directly spoke to ask those who worshipped him, then that's neither here nor there.

[hroþila]

What relevance does that have? Unless you wish to claim [Thor] personally answered every prayer and directly spoke to ask those who worshipped him, then that's neither here nor there.

Yeah. In fact, we know he didn't, or Minrah wouldn't have been surprised that he knew her, and she would have got the answer to whatever was troubling her through her prayers, not in person. We also know Loki ignored Hilgya for the longest time. It would seem getting an answer is the exception, not the rule.

[Keltest]

You'll eventually have to accept this, because she is being painted that way, at least if you want to take the comic seriously and logically follow through - which I would advise against, personally. This is parody, especially during the golden and silver age of OotS. The robustness of the worldbuilding was constructed on the level of "Please don't touch or it might crumble! Here, enjoy some really funny jokes instead of thinking too hard!". And it worked REALLY well on that level, if you ask me.

Its very "generic D&D setting" by design. And in pretty much every D&D setting, the gods don't just manifest avatars and speak to mortals or solve the problems of their mortal worshipers for them.

Citation needed.

Have you actually... looked at Miko lately? Its not a coincidence that anything she views as a divine sign happens to support her current emotional state, and that she ignores things that don't, up to and including literal light from the 12 gods stripping her of her powers.

The gods can communicate, as shown in the comic. They can also take away divine magic.
Which is what is being discussed, I believe.

The gods can communicate through well defined channels, of which "random signs" is not one of them. If its not through their domain and its not a clerical spell, its not a godly message.

Citation needed.
Please point to a strip where the gods answer a prayer by Miko (which Gods, as established by the comic, CAN).

Why does Miko interprete anything and everything as indirect divine signals?
Maybe because she DOESN'T, you know, GET any direct communication.

Miko, in a way, behaves like someone in OUR world - we don't get direct divine contact, thus we choose to interprete or not interprete any sort of stuff as divine signs.

The difference is that in Miko's comic world there IS a way of divine communication.
HUGE difference.

… yes, which makes it all the more visible that she makes no effort to actually seek out such methods. Almost like she isn't actually interested in the actual will of her gods.

The position that the Gods don't care or are too stupid to communicate when it would be helpful is holdable, I think.
What I (and I THINK Lacuna) are arguing is against the position that the gods are POWERLESS to intervene in any way shape or form.

Its not that they are literally powerless, its just that they have rules about interfering on the mortal plane. Theyre trying to avoid having massive proxy battles on the world, remember? It was kind of a plot point pretty early on in the current book.

This is basically where I am as well.
Back then it was an arguable case either way, and one probably SHOULDN'T argue too hard either way, about background worldbuilding in a story that is meant to be taken as funny parody anyway.

But I get the notion that the comic is supposed to be taken seriously, now, with all the ethical lectures and stuff, and now it establishes stuff that retroatively makes other stuff from before look inconsistent.

Im pretty sure the gods, taken as a group, have been set up to look terrible on purpose. Its not just a coincidental thing from the first couple books, Rich is trying to make them look bad on purpose specifically because he doesn't want people looking to them as the solution.

People have made these comparisons for a while now (CEOs, presidents, companies etc)

And it just doesn't make sense.
The current book establishes that Thor can remember every single person who ever prayed to him, with no indication that the Southern gods are less powerful.

I don't think anyone here has a CEO on the same kind of magical power level.

Its an analogy, it doesn't have to be perfect. Its just to make the point of relative responsibilities and duties. Nothing Miko did until she Fell actually required the intervention or direction of the Twelve. They have better and more important things to do than to supervise the assistant manager. That's what Shojo was for. That doesn't mean they couldn't come down and give orders if they really felt like it, or if they actually needed the company owner to come down personally, but its otherwise simply not something that's on their watch list unless something goes wrong.

[Mightymosy]

What relevance does that have? Unless you wish to claim Thor personally answered every prayer and directly spoke to ask those who worshipped him, then that's neither here nor there.

The relevance is that the "CEO comparison" doesn't hold up as an analogy, and thus these analogies themselves are irrelevant for discussion (yet are brought up again and again).

Its very "generic D&D setting" by design. And in pretty much every D&D setting, the gods don't just manifest avatars and speak to mortals or solve the problems of their mortal worshipers for them.



Have you actually... looked at Miko lately? Its not a coincidence that anything she views as a divine sign happens to support her current emotional state, and that she ignores things that don't, up to and including literal light from the 12 gods stripping her of her powers.


The gods can communicate through well defined channels, of which "random signs" is not one of them. If its not through their domain and its not a clerical spell, its not a godly message.


… yes, which makes it all the more visible that she makes no effort to actually seek out such methods. Almost like she isn't actually interested in the actual will of her gods.



Its not that they are literally powerless, its just that they have rules about interfering on the mortal plane. Theyre trying to avoid having massive proxy battles on the world, remember? It was kind of a plot point pretty early on in the current book.


Im pretty sure the gods, taken as a group, have been set up to look terrible on purpose. Its not just a coincidental thing from the first couple books, Rich is trying to make them look bad on purpose specifically because he doesn't want people looking to them as the solution.





Its an analogy, it doesn't have to be perfect. Its just to make the point of relative responsibilities and duties. Nothing Miko did until she Fell actually required the intervention or direction of the Twelve. They have better and more important things to do than to supervise the assistant manager. That's what Shojo was for. That doesn't mean they couldn't come down and give orders if they really felt like it, or if they actually needed the company owner to come down personally, but its otherwise simply not something that's on their watch list unless something goes wrong.

I screened your post and still couldn't find an example of a god answering a prayer by Miko (something they CAN, be it an exception or not).

Thus, still [citation needed] for Miko disregarding information from the gods.

Note that even during her fall, there is communication.
Of course Miko SUCKS interpreting this very obvious signal from the gods, but the point remains that she didn't get concrete, direct information at any point before her death, not as an answer to a prayer and not otherwise.

We have a frame where she sits in a circle of candles, praying to the gods for answers.
They don't answer, at least not in the online material.
Thus she is left figuring out divine will all on her own and looks for indirect signs.
And sucks badly at that.

The only sign she DOES get is that her paladin powers work - to a point.
So, up until she loses her magic, her only semi-reliable indication of how she's doing comes from her getting magic juice every morning, so it is an easy deduction to make that her superiors (gods) don't have a problem with her performance.

ETA:
I confess I forgot about this discussion:

As Keltest said, please provide arguments to back up your claims. For example, please provide a single word answer to "let me see through their lies."

Why this fixation on a one-word answer?!?

Hylgia: Please tell me where Durkon is.
Loki: At day X you need to be on the road from place x to Thor's temple in firmament, exactly at hour x.

Miko: Please let me see through their lies.
12: They are not liars except Belkar.

I really don't understand you people arguing that the second answer would be fundamentally different from the first.

If you insist on a one-word answer (like Kish I am veeeery unconvinced a one-word answer was what Loki gave to Hylgia), how about:

Miko: Please let me see through their lies.
12: Don't

Alternatively:
12: Relax

or
12: Stop

Then again, I am not a pantheon of 12 super powerful magic gods, I'm not even a fantasy writer. I'm sure they could come up with an even better answer to this arbitrary one-word-limitation.