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2019-04-16, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
We did. You complained that it didn't make any sense that we got four. Lacuna, what is your objective here? Is it just to tick everybody off by arbitrarily declaring that things don't make any sense, even though youre the only person here who seems unable to grok them? Or are you just legitimately convinced that you know better than everybody else about these things? Because so far the only things you've shown me that actually don't make sense are your opinions.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-04-16, 03:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
Not at all similar; Roy wanted to be a fighter for specific, personal reasons. Miko wanted to be a paladin because....?
Ya know what, let's indeed do some math. Miko works with clerics in the SG. Other members of the SG are shown to dislike Miko. Miko has been shown to pray to the gods for guidance rather than asking a cleric. Miko has been shown to be incredibly egotistical and self assured in her own superiority. You can infer either that she believed her own prayers and interpretations of the gods signs were enough, or you can infer that none of the clerics were willing to begrudge her any favors, or whatever else you want. Those are much better avenues than claiming they were not the actions you would take, and thus should not have been what Miko did.
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2019-04-16, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
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2019-04-16, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
Lacuna's objective is proving
the men made a duplicate key, that's how they got the strawberriesthat Miko actually is every bit as chosen and special as she thinks she is, that the narrative has failed her by not complying, and therefore, there must be some flaw in the narrative that proves this is true. (And, by extension, some flaw in all of us who don't agree, since clearly we're simply not seeing the issue properly, unlike Lacuna.)
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2019-04-16, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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2019-04-16, 04:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
What on earth does this have to do with it? Roy and Miko's career motivations are irrelevant to their ability to reasonably requisition services from peers and subordinates within their organisation.
The spellcraft skill allows you to identify spells and magic items whose function would not otherwise be obvious to the naked eye. She doesn't need ranks in spellcraft in order to know that various highly-impactful spell-categories exist, any more than Roy needs ranks in such a skill in order to know that Planar Ally and Sending spells do, or any more than someone in our world needs to be an electrical engineer or physics PhD in order to know that telephones and aeroplanes exist.
I am not trying to argue that Miko has an infallible spiritual mandate and/or perfect information about all forms of D&D class mechanics, but I am not going to accept that she is some of kind of drooling idiot backbirth who knows less about the world she inhabits than a 10-year child would know about ours, or spent the last 28 years of her life living under a rock.Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2019-04-16, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
Roy: "I want to be a fighter! I'll fight things! I shall be a great warrior, with my ancestral greatsword at my side!" *years later* "oh, hey, i might encounter traps. Guess I should find some way to deal with that."
Miko: "I am the chosen one of the gods themselves. Time to pick a divine class, time to pick a divine class, time to pick.... hey how about this one that doesn't let me talk to the gods that I'm a chosen one of."
You're the one who wanted to compare Miko to Roy as far as why they chose their classes, don't get all huffy at me when that blows up in your face.
Also, you keep assuming that Miko can just requisition stuff from others. If anything, having read How the Paladin Got His Scar should have given you the idea that the SG Commander (even generously assuming that's what Miko was) is not nearly as autonomous as you are trying to make us believe.
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2019-04-16, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
No, you made this comparison, and I simply pointed out that none of this prevents either from requesting services from teammates with relevant capabilities.
Also, you keep assuming that Miko can just requisition stuff from others. If anything, having read How the Paladin Got His Scar should have given you the idea that the SG Commander (even generously assuming that's what Miko was) is not nearly as autonomous as you are trying to make us believe.Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2019-04-16, 05:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
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2019-04-16, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
...Maybe because that's a relatively obscure spell?
Look, there is nothing particularly subjective about this. The Sapphire Guard has repeatedly summoned extraplanar beings from the celestial realm to serve as judges, counsel and reinforcements. Miko is personally present for these ceremonies or the immediate aftermath. It is not plausible to suggest that she just... isn't aware that there are channels of communication between the mortal and Godly realms. She has to know this.Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2019-04-16, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
Spoiler: Gaslighting works better when I can't directly quote and link to you making the comparison, ya know.
We never saw Roy trying to disarm traps himself. We have seen Miko trying to get guidance from the gods herself. We can very reasonably infer that she, for whatever reason (and more than one has been put forth), does not get guidance from the Clerics. That you refuse to accept that doesn't make your position any better.
[citation required]
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2019-04-16, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
And for some reason you conclude that, rather than simply choosing not to use them she... is somehow prevented from doing so by some mysterious means?
I don't even get what your complaint here is. At risk of repeating myself, when Miko prays for divine guidance, she is seeking validation, not instruction. She isn't actually interested in following divine will if it deviates from her own will. That's literally the entire point of her character arc.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-04-16, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
I am not gaslighting you, Peelee. You started out by saying that Miko should have picked some other career path, and then I pointed out why this line of argument was daft (she doesn't need to pick that career in order to have channels of communication with the Gods.) It continues to be daft. Stop making it.
We never saw Roy trying to disarm traps himself. We have seen Miko trying to get guidance from the gods herself. We can very reasonably infer that she, for whatever reason (and more than one has been put forth), does not get guidance from the Clerics. That you refuse to accept that doesn't make your position any better.Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2019-04-16, 05:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
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2019-04-16, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
If that were the case, when she actually got a very direct and obvious message from the gods, she would have listened instead of assuming that being fired in the most visible and spectacular way possible was just a test. That she chose to ignore the only actual divine sign she got about her path says a lot.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-04-16, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
No. I'm arguing that either (A) the Twelve Gods have neglected to establish channels of communication with their senior followers, which makes them pretty stupid even by the standards of other OOTSverse deities, and/or (B) there are logical inconsistencies within the text when you consider the magical and personnel resources ostensibly available to the Guard vs. their observed behaviours.
Exactly. Whether Miko is looking for validation or not is irrelevant- or to the extent that it matters, getting an actual personalised message from the Gods would presumably be at least as validating as mumbling into the wall and hoping that they hear you. To suggest that Miko doesn't want to hear from the Gods would imply that she has some kind of subconscious fear of inadequacy, which... well, would not be a theory most of her critics espouse. In any case, over the multiple years she served with the Guard, it's not really plausible that they couldn't arrange to talk with her.Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2019-04-16, 05:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
None of the Sapphire Guard are their "senior followers." They appointed themselves to a specific job on behalf of the 12, and are an organization entirely separate from the priestly hierarchy. While the job they do is important in the same way the police force of a city is important, that doesn't mean they have any special channels to the absolute top of the hierarchy. Again, youre complaining that the top detective in Chicago doesn't have a personal line to the president of the US.
Also, as I said, Miko DID get a personalized message from the gods. She promptly ignored it because she didn't like it.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-04-16, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
For the umpteenth time, Keltest, they factually and verifiably are not. We know, from Word of God along with textual evidence, that the Guard includes azurite clerics as part of it's general roster.
Also, as I said, Miko DID get a personalized message from the gods. She promptly ignored it because she didn't like it.
It's about the problem that no such message was ever forthcoming- not for Miko, or for anyone in the Guard who might have been trusted with information about purple quiddities, nor for anyone else in Azure City who might have appreciated knowing about a massive hobgoblin army on the march. Why is it, exactly, that the Twelve are hovering anxiously overhead ready to hit the Fall button when Miko snaps, and apparently oblivious to an unfolding crisis at every prior juncture?Last edited by Lacuna Caster; 2019-04-16 at 05:59 PM.
Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2019-04-16, 06:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
Which does not make them part of the hierarchy. Notably, we have also seen exactly 0 clerics in any sort of leadership position in the Guard.
That there are clerics in the guard does not mean the entire organization is of utmost importance.
Because for the umpteenth time, the gods are only allowed to affect the mortal world in strict and well defined ways, such as by granting clerics their powers and through their specific godly domains. Unless one of the Twelve had "talking paladins out of bad decisions" as one of their domains, they cant do squat until Miko actually does something that requires them to personally respond, like Falling. This isn't a plot hole, this is just you intentionally failing to understand.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-04-16, 08:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
I can imagine how that would go... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m4a-bl4alo
Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2019-04-16, 11:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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- In a castle under the sea
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
That would be a fair point, but you're overlooking a critical point: Roy isn't Miko. If Roy wanted to talk with the gods, he'd ask Durkon for help. If Miko wanted traps disarmed, she'd run straight at them and rely on evasion and "the Twelve Gods' favor" to keep her safe.
Miko probably has several mid-level clerics under her direct command
Again, Miko is the highest-level paladin in the Sapphire Guard, not the highest-ranked. She has never been seen exercising any kind of authority over anyone but her horse and her prisoners—and given how well the latter were treated, I'm pretty sure we'd see more clerics ducking into nearby corridors when she passes if she had any kind of influence over their punishment.
Have you heard of chaplains? They're priests who work in militaries around the world. They're officially noncombatants, but the Sapphire Guard's clerics seem to be more like medics than infantry (almost as if there's another class specializing in that), and I'm not sure the distinction matters to this discussion. Most major nations employ chaplains of many religions; by your logic, these armies must all be part of several different (often opposed) religious hierarchies.
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2019-04-17, 12:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
What if Miko was never adopted by Shojo
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2019-04-17, 02:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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2019-04-17, 03:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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2019-04-17, 03:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
ungelic is us
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2019-04-17, 04:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
You'll eventually have to accept this, because she is being painted that way, at least if you want to take the comic seriously and logically follow through - which I would advise against, personally. This is parody, especially during the golden and silver age of OotS. The robustness of the worldbuilding was constructed on the level of "Please don't touch or it might crumble! Here, enjoy some really funny jokes instead of thinking too hard!". And it worked REALLY well on that level, if you ask me.
Citation needed.
The gods can communicate, as shown in the comic. They can also take away divine magic.
Which is what is being discussed, I believe.
Citation needed.
Please point to a strip where the gods answer a prayer by Miko (which Gods, as established by the comic, CAN).
Why does Miko interprete anything and everything as indirect divine signals?
Maybe because she DOESN'T, you know, GET any direct communication.
Miko, in a way, behaves like someone in OUR world - we don't get direct divine contact, thus we choose to interprete or not interprete any sort of stuff as divine signs.
The difference is that in Miko's comic world there IS a way of divine communication.
HUGE difference.
The position that the Gods don't care or are too stupid to communicate when it would be helpful is holdable, I think.
What I (and I THINK Lacuna) are arguing is against the position that the gods are POWERLESS to intervene in any way shape or form.
Originally Posted by Lacuna_Caster
Back then it was an arguable case either way, and one probably SHOULDN'T argue too hard either way, about background worldbuilding in a story that is meant to be taken as funny parody anyway.
But I get the notion that the comic is supposed to be taken seriously, now, with all the ethical lectures and stuff, and now it establishes stuff that retroatively makes other stuff from before look inconsistent.
People have made these comparisons for a while now (CEOs, presidents, companies etc)
And it just doesn't make sense.
The current book establishes that Thor can remember every single person who ever prayed to him, with no indication that the Southern gods are less powerful.
I don't think anyone here has a CEO on the same kind of magical power level.Last edited by Mightymosy; 2019-04-17 at 04:53 AM.
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2019-04-17, 07:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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2019-04-17, 07:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
Yeah. In fact, we know he didn't, or Minrah wouldn't have been surprised that he knew her, and she would have got the answer to whatever was troubling her through her prayers, not in person. We also know Loki ignored Hilgya for the longest time. It would seem getting an answer is the exception, not the rule.
ungelic is us
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2019-04-17, 07:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
Its very "generic D&D setting" by design. And in pretty much every D&D setting, the gods don't just manifest avatars and speak to mortals or solve the problems of their mortal worshipers for them.
Have you actually... looked at Miko lately? Its not a coincidence that anything she views as a divine sign happens to support her current emotional state, and that she ignores things that don't, up to and including literal light from the 12 gods stripping her of her powers.
The gods can communicate through well defined channels, of which "random signs" is not one of them. If its not through their domain and its not a clerical spell, its not a godly message.
… yes, which makes it all the more visible that she makes no effort to actually seek out such methods. Almost like she isn't actually interested in the actual will of her gods.
Its not that they are literally powerless, its just that they have rules about interfering on the mortal plane. Theyre trying to avoid having massive proxy battles on the world, remember? It was kind of a plot point pretty early on in the current book.
Im pretty sure the gods, taken as a group, have been set up to look terrible on purpose. Its not just a coincidental thing from the first couple books, Rich is trying to make them look bad on purpose specifically because he doesn't want people looking to them as the solution.
Its an analogy, it doesn't have to be perfect. Its just to make the point of relative responsibilities and duties. Nothing Miko did until she Fell actually required the intervention or direction of the Twelve. They have better and more important things to do than to supervise the assistant manager. That's what Shojo was for. That doesn't mean they couldn't come down and give orders if they really felt like it, or if they actually needed the company owner to come down personally, but its otherwise simply not something that's on their watch list unless something goes wrong.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-04-17, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
The relevance is that the "CEO comparison" doesn't hold up as an analogy, and thus these analogies themselves are irrelevant for discussion (yet are brought up again and again).
I screened your post and still couldn't find an example of a god answering a prayer by Miko (something they CAN, be it an exception or not).
Thus, still [citation needed] for Miko disregarding information from the gods.
Note that even during her fall, there is communication.
Of course Miko SUCKS interpreting this very obvious signal from the gods, but the point remains that she didn't get concrete, direct information at any point before her death, not as an answer to a prayer and not otherwise.
We have a frame where she sits in a circle of candles, praying to the gods for answers.
They don't answer, at least not in the online material.
Thus she is left figuring out divine will all on her own and looks for indirect signs.
And sucks badly at that.
The only sign she DOES get is that her paladin powers work - to a point.
So, up until she loses her magic, her only semi-reliable indication of how she's doing comes from her getting magic juice every morning, so it is an easy deduction to make that her superiors (gods) don't have a problem with her performance.
ETA:
I confess I forgot about this discussion:
Why this fixation on a one-word answer?!?
Hylgia: Please tell me where Durkon is.
Loki: At day X you need to be on the road from place x to Thor's temple in firmament, exactly at hour x.
Miko: Please let me see through their lies.
12: They are not liars except Belkar.
I really don't understand you people arguing that the second answer would be fundamentally different from the first.
If you insist on a one-word answer (like Kish I am veeeery unconvinced a one-word answer was what Loki gave to Hylgia), how about:
Miko: Please let me see through their lies.
12: Don't
Alternatively:
12: Relax
or
12: Stop
Then again, I am not a pantheon of 12 super powerful magic gods, I'm not even a fantasy writer. I'm sure they could come up with an even better answer to this arbitrary one-word-limitation.Last edited by Mightymosy; 2019-04-17 at 10:28 AM.