What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

[Worldsong]

Thanks. I still think this is an example of Miko jumping the gun, more specifically rationalizing that if a)the sentence for disrupting the fabric of reality is death and b)the Sapphire Guard's diviners do not make mistakes (and c)everyone she has run into who recognizes their description has identified the Order as violent criminals), then their death sentence is an inevitability. (And she's not gonna shed too many tears if she has to bring it to pass before any actual trial.)

That's the explanation I'd go with myself. If Miko believes that she's sent to retrieve the Order so they can be given the death penalty then saying that her lord ordered their execution isn't a lie, it's her getting ahead of herself.

And as has been pointed out by many, both in-universe and out, one of Miko's flaws is that she gets ahead of herself.

[Lacuna Caster]

I mean Shojo could've realized that the Gate was destroyed by adventurers who have thus just wrapped up a plot arc adventure and will thus inevitably be f**king around shopping and stuff, and decided it was an excellent opportunity to get rid of Miko for a nice long time.

If his primary objective was to waste Miko's time while posing a significant and otherwise pointless risk to both her own life and the Orders' (even trying to take them alive could easily go sideways), sure. If his primary objective was to safeguard the world, he'd have to fall straight out of the crazy tree and hit every branch on the way down. As would Eugene, et cetera.

That's the explanation I'd go with myself. If Miko believes that she's sent to retrieve the Order so they can be given the death penalty then saying that her lord ordered their execution isn't a lie, it's her getting ahead of herself.

If you really want to try and reconcile the two statements, sure. But again, as far as I can tell early-strip Miko basically needs to inhabit a separate universe from later-strip Miko and the later strip in general, so I don't see the point.

[Worldsong]

If you really want to try and reconcile the two statements, sure. But again, as far as I can tell early-strip Miko basically needs to inhabit a separate universe from later-strip Miko and the later strip in general, so I don't see the point.

The point is easier to see if you don't agree with that assessment.

[Lacuna Caster]

The point is easier to see if you don't agree with that assessment.

Unfortunately, I do. Early-strip Miko, as far as I can tell, exists in a universe without teleport, wind walk, sending, scrying, any hint of Eugene's intel, any knowledge of the Crimson Mantle, and probably no O-Chul or Hinjo as diplomancer backup. Absent all that, the panel with "Mr. Scruffy says" doesn't exactly prey heavily on my mind.

[Worldsong]

Unfortunately, I do. Early-strip Miko, as far as I can tell, exists in a universe without teleport, wind walk, sending, scrying, any hint of Eugene's intel, any knowledge of the Crimson Mantle, and probably no O-Chul or Hinjo as diplomancer backup. Absent all that, the panel with "Mr. Scruffy says" doesn't exactly prey heavily on my mind.

I understand that you do and I do not mind that you hold that opinion, but it does not sway mine.

[Lacuna Caster]

Yup. And I don't know why Lacuna insists on defending this stance, since in order to do so he must reject reality itself and he could easily fall back on that other trump card of his instead: "Everything after Miko's first few appearances was Rich changing and betraying his character", which has the advantage of being unverifiable.

Speaking of verification, could you point out where I've actually said this? I've said that the late and early version of the character are for all intents and purposes factually inconsistent with eachother, but I'd appreciate if you didn't mix bulverist insinuations with putting words in my mouth.

[woweedd]

Speaking of verification, could you point out where I've actually said this? I've said that the late and early version of the character are for all intents and purposes factually inconsistent with eachother, but I'd appreciate if you didn't mix bulverist insinuations with putting words in my mouth.

In what way is that NOT saying that everything after Miko's first few appearances is Miko's character being betrayed? I don't see a distinction.

[Ruck]

That's the explanation I'd go with myself. If Miko believes that she's sent to retrieve the Order so they can be given the death penalty then saying that her lord ordered their execution isn't a lie, it's her getting ahead of herself.

And as has been pointed out by many, both in-universe and out, one of Miko's flaws is that she gets ahead of herself.

Yeah. I've said this before, but I have previously re-read the NCFTPB strips after hearing the argument that Miko's character was altered for the needs of the plot, and if anything, I came away more convinced that the qualities that led to her downfall were always there. (Indeed, she's like Tarquin in that way; you got hints of the underlying personality traits, but the mask of competence and other qualities overshadowed them to the point where the dramatic break may have come as a surprise.)

[Kelenius]

The wizard in question works for Lord Shojo- you know, the ruler of a city with a system of feudal government characterised by expectations of absolute loyalty- so he doesn't really get much of a choice in the matter, particularly on, again, a mission of world-shaking importance. The actual chance of mishap is only 1% given sufficient study and results in a mere 1d10 damage, but if that's such a concern, simply teleport to the nearest familiar town in the north, which will still shave weeks off Miko's travel time, and doesn't involve getting involved in a fight. (Not that any fight need occur if you, um, just tell Miko what Eugene/the BoPLaG knows.)

Shojo is not the absolute ruler of the city. He could probably force the wizard to do it, but that would be burning his goodwill, and he is a leader of a city full of political intrigue who is pretending to be senile. We don't know if the wizard is even the part of the Sapphire Guard. Mishap chance is small, but you're ignoring the chance of arriving at a wrong spot. He was seen teleporting twice, and messed up once, getting himself killed in the process. That would put his success rate at 50%. Imagine that he fails on the way there and ends up getting eaten by a bird in the middle of nowhere. Now instead of tracking down the order, Miko needs to get back to Azure city with the wizard's body, giving her a massive delay.

And as for teleporting her to a nearest city, he might very well have, we don't know if he did or did not.

In any case, all of this logic would apply to any mission that took the Order to the unknown regions of the Western Continent, which Shojo was fully intent on using said Wizard for. Didn't stop him there. And if all that fails, just use Wind Walk.

When the wizard is teleporting the order, he's teleporting from one city to another, not from one city to a group of adventurers in the middle of wilderness through scrying. Wind walk, which lasts a hour/level, may very well have been actually used. Why do you assume it wasn't? She could have had it cast on her at the start of the mission to give her a boost. Barring someone in the comic saying that Miko walked all the way, there's no evidence for either idea.

Teleport spells don't help persuade the Order, of course, but a customised Sending message from Shojo might, as could sending other paladins that have actual diplomacy skills.

The entire order except for Roy and Durkon refused to go with her when she explained everything to them personally. Roy changed his mind later. What makes you think that 25 words from someone who isn't even here will do the trick?

Because Sangwaan can Scry the Orders' current location/s and then relay that information to Miko via Sending, even if she doesn't come on the mission in person. (It's not like they have great will saves, and she can just cast the spell over and over until she gets a reading.) Miko's actual tracking skills are largely redundant if you assume a modicum of coordination with diviners in the Guard.

That's not how scrying works. "Where are they?" "Some forest" is about the best that they can get. And that essentially uses up diviner's whole day, where she might have other duties. Not to mention that she might have done that actually, again, we don't know if they did or did not, and there's no evidence for either idea.

You specifically said "Miko is wrong is a very simple explanation that resolves all contradictions" when I have been talking about a bevy of contradictions that range much wider than Miko's mission-statement. And no, I'm not saying it's all Shojo's fault (indeed, part of my argument is that several other characters would have to be equally daft)- I'm saying it's utterly implausible that actual sane humans would make these decisions at all.
.

There's this wonderful thing called "context". Same words can have different meanings in different context. When I said "all contradictions", I was responding to the point about Miko saying that Shojo ordered the order executed - meaning, "all" referred to all contradictions that arise you assume that she's saying the truth.

I'll also add that (after sleeping on it) "Literally every logical absurdity in the early strip can be blamed exclusively on Miko." is a phrase that makes no sense. Miko is an imaginary character. The comic exists in real world. Miko can't be "blamed" on a real-world concept because she does not exist.

And again, you are proposing your version of the events, which makes no sense, making a load of assumptions, and because that version of the events is improbable, you declare that the entire comic is. The biggest assumption you make is that Shojo has no other concerns than returning the order to the Azure city, and that he should therefore throw all of his resources at this task. There's a myriad of other possibilities why teleporting Miko might be impossible. Maybe the wizard has been drinking for two weeks and they don't know when it'll end. Maybe he teleported somewhere else two weeks ago, and has been drinking there, so they can't even reach him. Maybe he's on a different mission. Maybe a noble family is using his services. Maybe he didn't level to use teleport yet. Maybe Shojo just didn't think about it. Mayby Shojo wants to involve as few people in this as possible. Maybe Shojo doesn't think this issue is time-sensitive. Maybe Shojo thinks that it's better to do the mission slow and steady. Maybe he suggested using the wizard but the paladins, who are unaware of the mission's importance, wanted to get rid of Miko for longer and insisted on not doing it, and Shojo decided to not force the issue. Maybe Miko is the wizard's old crush and Miko wants nothing to do with him. Maybe the wizard is Miko's old crush and he wants nothing to do with her. Maybe the wizard is Lawful Evil and doesn't want to teleport paladins. All possible theories that don't put the entire comic in jeopardy.

[factotum]

We don't know if the wizard is even the part of the Sapphire Guard.

I've just spent ten minutes trying to find it with no success (maybe it's a bonus strip in one of the books?), but there's definitely a panel where Roy asks Hinjo why they can't make use of the wizard to teleport somewhere, and Hinjo knows nothing about any wizard. If the wizard were a Guard member Hinjo would know him, ergo, he isn't a member of the Sapphire Guard.

[Fyraltari]

I've just spent ten minutes trying to find it with no success (maybe it's a bonus strip in one of the books?), but there's definitely a panel where Roy asks Hinjo why they can't make use of the wizard to teleport somewhere, and Hinjo knows nothing about any wizard. If the wizard were a Guard member Hinjo would know him, ergo, he isn't a member of the Sapphire Guard.

Not exactly that exchange but close. Pretty sure the SG is "Paladins & Clerics only" though.

[woweedd]

Not exactly that exchange but close. Pretty sure the SG is "Paladins & Clerics only" though.

Indeed. In theory, there could be some multiclass arcane casters, say, a Paladin/Sorcerer, or a Wizard/Cleric, but, in all likelihood, none high-level enough to cast Teleport. Multicasting wrecks hell with XP gain.

[littlebum2002]

Lying about being in a dating relationship isn't as serious a violation as lying about the express commands of your liege lord in a matter of life and death, as you know perfectly well.

Yes, but you said "Miko has a character class that literally doesn't allow her to lie". So which is it? Are Paladins allowed to lie or not?

The wizard in question works for Lord Shojo

No he doesn't, he works for a noble

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html

[hamishspence]

No he doesn't, he works for a noble

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html

To be fair, Shojo's description of the wizard as being on his personal staff:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html

does suggest that he was one of the nobles who "employed wizards".

[Kish]

Indeed. In theory, there could be some multiclass arcane casters, say, a Paladin/Sorcerer, or a Wizard/Cleric, but, in all likelihood, none high-level enough to cast Teleport. Multicasting wrecks hell with XP gain.

No need for "in all likelihood" here--Shojo explicitly says that losing that one wizard means he can't have the Order teleported around until he's been resurrected.

[Fyraltari]

It also makes sense that the SG couldn’t use him to move around, he’d start wondering why those paladins are so devil-may-care about jurisdictions.

Conspiracies are hard, you gotta hide stuff.

[littlebum2002]

To be fair, Shojo's description of the wizard as being on his personal staff:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html

does suggest that he was one of the nobles who "employed wizards".

That is true, but it's strange that Shojo would have had a personal wizard on his staff and Hinjo wasn't even aware of his existence.

[The Aboleth]

You specifically said "Miko is wrong is a very simple explanation that resolves all contradictions" when I have been talking about a bevy of contradictions that range much wider than Miko's mission-statement. And no, I'm not saying it's all Shojo's fault (indeed, part of my argument is that several other characters would have to be equally daft)- I'm saying it's utterly implausible that actual sane humans would make these decisions at all.

(Bolded emphasis mine) It seems like you believe the word "sane" should mean "always makes logical decisions." That is almost never the case, in real life or in narratives.

Take Shojo, for example. He is "sane" in the sense that he can (if he chooses) hold a meaningful/coherent conversation with someone. And he's clearly either very smart or very charismatic--or both--because he succeeds in making a bunch of nobles and Sapphire Guard members think he's senile so he can rule in the manner he thinks is best.

BUT, Shojo's defining characteristic to me has never been his intellect, charisma, or status as a ruler; no, his defining characteristic is that he is desperate. And this desperation has warped his decision-making in such a way that he doesn't always make the most logical choices.

He is desperate to stay alive because nobles keep trying to assassinate him. And he is desperate to rule in the way he sees fit but keeps running into resistance either from the nobles (who don't agree with his policies and/or who want the throne themselves) or the Sapphire Guard (who wouldn't like him doing things that could violate the Oath). His solution to these problems--a solution born out of desperation--is to fake senility. Is it a logical choice? Of course not--but it's the choice he makes because he thinks it's the only long shot he feels he has left, and it works because he's skilled and/or smart enough to pull it off.

When the first Gate is destroyed, he is desperate to find out information. So he summons a BoPLaG...only to be met by Eugene, who Shojo recognizes is also like him--that is, someone who is equally desperate to accomplish his objectives. The two strike a deal and come up with a plan, both born out of their mutual desperation, because their thinking has been warped over a long period of time to cause them to see these decisions as their only viable option. Is it totally logical? To them it seems so, because they're desperate. We, the readers, do not share their desperation, so of course we can think of a more efficient approach to the Gate issue.
But they can't, because they're defined by their desperation.

If you look at Shojo and Eugene's actions through that lens, their actions make complete sense. If you continue to look at their actions through the lens of "What is the most logical/optimal solution they should have taken," then obviously their actions won't make sense at all. I choose to look through the desperation lens, because it fits their characters. YMMV.

[Rodin]

That is true, but it's strange that Shojo would have had a personal wizard on his staff and Hinjo wasn't even aware of his existence.

He probably was aware that Shojo had a wizard on staff. What Hinjo didn't know was that he died, because Shojo kept the entire Cliffport excursion under his hat. Without knowing that he died, he couldn't raise him from the dead in time to be useful in the battle.

[Squire Doodad]

He probably was aware that Shojo had a wizard on staff. What Hinjo didn't know was that he died, because Shojo kept the entire Cliffport excursion under his hat. Without knowing that he died, he couldn't raise him from the dead in time to be useful in the battle.

He probably just knew that there was "a" wizard, not knowing that it was one who could teleport. That also suggests it isn't anyone too important legally speaking, because if it was a "Arcane Advisor" or something then Hinjo, even if he didn't know he could teleport, would still have him on his own staff due to the lack of time to get his own proper set of staff members.

[Kish]

Whether Shojo actually counts as sane is debatable. After all, he bragged of being paranoid.

What is much more certain, is that Lacuna continues to insist on the...

false dichotomy between stilted perfection and nonsensical contrivance.

[Keltest]

Whether Shojo actually counts as sane is debatable. After all, he bragged of being paranoid.

What is much more certain, is that Lacuna continues to insist on the...

True, but in context he was talking about how he survived the constant assassinations, so... YMMV I guess.

[Lacuna Caster]

Shojo is not the absolute ruler of the city. He could probably force the wizard to do it, but that would be burning his goodwill, and he is a leader of a city full of political intrigue who is pretending to be senile. We don't know if the wizard is even the part of the Sapphire Guard. Mishap chance is small, but you're ignoring the chance of arriving at a wrong spot. He was seen teleporting twice, and messed up once, getting himself killed in the process...

All arguments which would be even the teensiest bit relevant if Shojo hadn't been explicitly willing to use said wizard to actually help hunt down Xykon. It's bizarre to assert he was less qualified for the mission to go fetch Roy in the first place.

When the wizard is teleporting the order, he's teleporting from one city to another, not from one city to a group of adventurers in the middle of wilderness through scrying. Wind walk, which lasts a hour/level, may very well have been actually used. Why do you assume it wasn't...

Because a bonus strip in Paladin Blues explicitly shows Miko walking out the gates of azure city, alone and on horseback, and because the journey would not have taken her weeks otherwise. This is a ridiculous scenario.

The entire order except for Roy and Durkon refused to go with her when she explained everything to them personally. Roy changed his mind later...

What on earth are you referring to? Miko telling them 'surrender or die', which hardly qualifies as 'everything'? Or Roy being immediately willing to come as soon as he learned she was a paladin and that they were being charged with crimes against existence? If Shojo was, for some reason, genuinely convinced that absolutely nothing would persuade the Order to come quietly, then that's an argument for sending more combat strength, not for sending Miko alone.

That's not how scrying works. "Where are they?" "Some forest" is about the best that they can get...

The spell description explicitly states that scrying can be used for the purpose of gaining 'careful study' of an area. And no, I don't think Sangwaan had other duties more important than helping to stop the world ending. You're throwing up the most trivial objections to expediting a mission that is ultimately more important than any other errand Shojo's underlings could possibly be involved in.

Yes, but you said "Miko has a character class that literally doesn't allow her to lie". So which is it? Are Paladins allowed to lie or not?

Littlebum, I'm perfectly happy to allow that violations of the code come in greater and lesser degrees. Try looking at this the other way: What lie could Miko possibly tell that would be severe enough to qualify as a gross violation of her code of conduct?

(Bolded emphasis mine) It seems like you believe the word "sane" should mean "always makes logical decisions." That is almost never the case, in real life or in narratives.

This is a false dichotomy of your own invention. There is quite a space between 'mathematically optimal' and 'not head-bangingly wrong'. It is not plausible that a high-level ghost-wizard is going to spend weeks and weeks in leisurely contemplation floating above the floor and never once think 'I wonder why the ninja chick isn't back yet, she did use teleport, right?' or 'wait, don't sending spells exist?' This is not behaviour born of spur-of-the-moment desperation, it's behaviour born of Plot Holes.

[Kelenius]

All arguments which would be even the teensiest bit relevant if Shojo hadn't been explicitly willing to use said wizard to actually help hunt down Xykon. It's bizarre to assert he was less qualified for the mission to go fetch Roy in the first place.

All arguments except for "wizard is unwilling to teleport to an area he doesn't know", "wizard is occupied", "wizard is not in the city"... basically, all the reasons I listed in my post. If you'd like to actually refute all of my arguments, you'd need to go through them and explain why all of them don't work. Sorry, but you can't just say that they don't work without explaining why. All arguments I made make the wizard unavailable for teleporting Miko and available for teleporting the order later.

Because a bonus strip in Paladin Blues explicitly shows Miko walking out the gates of azure city, alone and on horseback, and because the journey would not have taken her weeks otherwise. This is a ridiculous scenario.

Fair enough, I haven't read that one.

What on earth are you referring to? Miko telling them 'surrender or die', which hardly qualifies as 'everything'? Or Roy being immediately willing to come as soon as he learned she was a paladin and that they were being charged with crimes against existence?

The latter, yes.

If Shojo was, for some reason, genuinely convinced that absolutely nothing would persuade the Order to come quietly, then that's an argument for sending more combat strength, not for sending Miko alone.

Shojo probably had things to say to the order that would make them come quietly, and if Shojo could cast sending, he would maybe do it. But he can't - he'd need to ask a cleric to do it. Which means that he'd need to explain these reasons to the cleric. And that he can't do. He can't tell anyone that he's sending Roy after the gates.

Shojo believed that Miko was capable of bringing the order in by force. For reasons right or wrong, he turned out to be correct. You can't say that Shojo was wrong to send Miko alone when he objectively was right.

The spell description explicitly states that scrying can be used for the purpose of gaining 'careful study' of an area.

I'm not talking about scry-to-teleport. I am responding to your idea that

Because Sangwaan can Scry the Orders' current location/s and then relay that information to Miko via Sending, even if she doesn't come on the mission in person. (It's not like they have great will saves, and she can just cast the spell over and over until she gets a reading.) Miko's actual tracking skills are largely redundant if you assume a modicum of coordination with diviners in the Guard.

And the scrying spell allows you to "see and hear the subject and the subject’s immediate surroundings (approximately 10 feet in all directions of the subject)." So the best answer they'll get is most likely "they're somewhere in a grassy area". Pay more attention please.

And no, I don't think Sangwaan had other duties more important than helping to stop the world ending. You're throwing up the most trivial objections to expediting a mission that is ultimately more important than any other errand Shojo's underlings could possibly be involved in.

Sangwaan doesn't know and can't be told that they are stopping the world ending because Shojo can't tell SG that he's sending Roy after the gates.

And secondly, "a mission that is ultimately more important than any other errand Shojo's underlings could possibly be involved in" is only such from the reader's perspective. This is a very important point that you are missing - characters in the comic do not have the same knowledge as the reader and they do not have the same interests as the reader. Characters not taking perfect decisions from the reader's perspective is not a mistake in the comic.

[littlebum2002]

The spell description explicitly states that scrying can be used for the purpose of gaining 'careful study' of an area.

If you scry on someone, you can carefully study their surroundings, but you won't know where they are. You can teleport "to their location", but since you don't actually know where their location is, you can't tell someone else to go to that location to meet them.


Think about if you tried scrying on me right now. You would have a detailed description of the inside of my house, you could use that detailed description to teleport to my house, but you still don't know my address so you can't tell someone else how to get here.

And, as someone else pointed out, teleporting right on top of a group of high level adventurers isn't a very good idea. Without the storm, the Order (now aided by Durkon) probably would have taken out Miko and the Wizard.

And why risk it? As far as Shojo is concerned, there's no rush. One gate was destroyed years ago, and another one was just destroyed. So it will probably take years before the next one is destroyed. So what if the paladin takes a month to find the Order?

Littlebum, I'm perfectly happy to allow that violations of the code come in greater and lesser degrees. Try looking at this the other way: What lie could Miko possibly tell that would be severe enough to qualify as a gross violation of her code of conduct?

Was she even lying? "You have been charged with crimes for which the only possible sentence is death". They were indeed charged with crimes, and (to her knowledge) the sentence for those crimes is death. Shojo only told her to "try hard" to bring them back alive so they could go to trial for their crime, he never said that it wasn't a capital crime. So, at worse, I would consider her claims to be a "slight embellishment" rather than an all out lie.

[Lacuna Caster]

All arguments except for "wizard is unwilling to teleport to an area he doesn't know", "wizard is occupied", "wizard is not in the city"... basically, all the reasons I listed in my post. If you'd like to actually refute all of my arguments...

No, I'm not going to go through these arguments, because you're the one making positive assertions for which you have no evidence, and all of these excuses are petty and inconsequential relative to the urgency of the mission. If the wizard is out of the city, use a Sending to get him back, or make a trip to magic walmart. Or, again, just use Wind Walk.

Shojo probably had things to say to the order that would make them come quietly, and if Shojo could cast sending, he would maybe do it. But he can't - he'd need to ask a cleric to do it. Which means that he'd need to explain these reasons to the cleric. And that he can't do. He can't tell anyone that he's sending Roy after the gates.

He doesn't have to. All he has to do is have the Being of Pure Law and Good explain that the Order blew up the Gate accidentally- which is true- and he wants to bring them in nonviolently. This doesn't require saying that he wants to hire Roy after the trial, it just means explaining why he doesn't want them dead.

Shojo believed that Miko was capable of bringing the order in by force. For reasons right or wrong, he turned out to be correct. You can't say that Shojo was wrong to send Miko alone when he objectively was right.

Kelenius, I remind you have been arguing at some length that Miko only prevailed against the Order due to sheer dumb luck. I don't really agree, but you cannot simultaneously argue this and then say that Shojo's confidence in Miko's abilities was 100% justified. {Scrubbed}

Sangwaan doesn't know and can't be told that they are stopping the world ending because Shojo can't tell SG that he's sending Roy after the gates...

He doesn't need to. Sangwaan is perfectly aware that Dorukan's Gate, one of the pillars of reality, has been destroyed, and whatever was responsible for that is a strong candidate for 'world-ending threat'. (Of course, he could also just have the BoPLaG explain the whole shebang with Xykon and Redcloak too, but that's another discussion.)

If you scry on someone, you can carefully study their surroundings, but you won't know where they are. You can teleport "to their location", but since you don't actually know where their location is, you can't tell someone else to go to that location to meet them... ...And, as someone else pointed out, teleporting right on top of a group of high level adventurers isn't a very good idea. Without the storm, the Order (now aided by Durkon) probably would have taken out Miko and the Wizard.

You're assuming that an encounter with the Order needs to result in violence at all. You can Send ahead of time to warn them, and just tell Miko or O-Chul or whoever drops in that the destruction of the Keep was accidental (and enough description to not confuse them with evil twins.)

Okay, fine, Scrying doesn't give you perfect information, but it would give Miko detailed descriptions of the Order (names, alignments, appearance, class features etc.), which she obviously isn't given. And repeated efforts would certainly give clues to their location that are more efficient than a single rank in survival and some gather information checks.

And why risk it? As far as Shojo is concerned, there's no rush. One gate was destroyed years ago, and another one was just destroyed. So it will probably take years before the next one is destroyed. So what if the paladin takes a month to find the Order?

Because Shojo specifically says to Roy, "I want you at Girard's Gate as soon as possible", for which purpose he was going to lend him a teleporting wizard. He does in fact consider this mission time-sensitive. (Not to mention that Miko, apart from not wanting her own time to be wasted and spend weeks on potentially dangerous travel through unsettled territories, presumably wants to catch her quarry before the trail runs cold. This kinda needs to make sense to her as well.)

Was she even lying? "You have been charged with crimes for which the only possible sentence is death"...

She outright states "my master has ordered their execution for deeds against his interest" in an earlier strip. (If you're going to argue she genuinely believes it, well, she genuinely believed Shojo was working with Xykon too, and that wasn't good enough.)

[hamishspence]

She outright states "my master has ordered their execution for deeds against his interest" in an earlier strip. (If you're going to argue she genuinely believes it, well, she genuinely believed Shojo was working with Xykon too, and that wasn't good enough.)

She didn't Fall for saying that Shojo was working with Xykon though - she fell for killing Shojo.

Similarly, she doesn't have to Fall for saying that the Order's execution has actually been decreed when that's not strictly true.

[Resileaf]

Similarly, she doesn't have to Fall for saying that the Order's execution has actually been decreed when that's not strictly true.

Especially since she has no reason at the time to think that it's not a sure thing.

[Kelenius]

No, I'm not going to go through these arguments, because you're the one making positive assertions for which you have no evidence, and all of these excuses are petty and inconsequential relative to the urgency of the mission. If the wizard is out of the city, use a Sending to get him back, or make a trip to magic walmart. Or, again, just use Wind Walk.

I am not making assertions. I am suggesting possibilities. You are the one making an assertion that wizard was available without any evidence that he was.

He doesn't have to. All he has to do is have the Being of Pure Law and Good explain that the Order blew up the Gate accidentally- which is true- and he wants to bring them in nonviolently. This doesn't require saying that he wants to hire Roy after the trial, it just means explaining why he doesn't want them dead.

In which case how would Shojo explain why the order needs to be brought back at all if the being already knows they're innocent of their charges? Because that's how he explains it to the paladins, they're being brought back for the trial.

Kelenius, I remind you have been arguing at some length that Miko only prevailed against the Order due to sheer dumb luck. I don't really agree, but you cannot simultaneously argue this and then say that Shojo's confidence in Miko's abilities was 100% justified. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}.

Wrong. What I actually said was

Shojo believed that Miko was capable of bringing the order in by force. For reasons right or wrong, he turned out to be correct. You can't say that Shojo was wrong to send Miko alone when he objectively was right.

"Shojo believed that Miko was capable" != "Shojo's confidence in Miko's abilities was 100% justified". Ultimately, he had to decide how many forces to commit to it, without knowing the exact details of the order's strength. How many paladins is 100% justified? 2? 3? 5? 10? 20? All of them? Shojo believed that the number is 1. He turned out to be correct. Maybe it was luck. Maybe he asked a cleric to divine the result for sending Miko and got a positive answer. Maybe Durkon was wrong and Miko could beat the order in a fair fight twice down. We don't know.

This is the second time you are misquoting my words, stop doing that.

He doesn't need to. Sangwaan is perfectly aware that Dorukan's Gate, one of the pillars of reality, has been destroyed, and whatever was responsible for that is a strong candidate for 'world-ending threat'. (Of course, he could also just have the BoPLaG explain the whole shebang with Xykon and Redcloak too, but that's another discussion.)

Excellent, I am in agreement with you on this point. Sangwaan believes that the order is guilty for destroying the gate. Now why would Sangwaan (and everyone else), who believes that the order is a world-ending threat, would consider it a good idea to send them a message warning them that they are wanted in the Azure City? Because with that of the assumption was true, it wouldn't make them go back to the city, it would just warn them and give them time to prepare for an attack. Sending a message to the order to ask them to come to the AC, from the perspective of the AG and related people, makes as much sense as sending a message to Xykon.

[littlebum2002]

He probably was aware that Shojo had a wizard on staff. What Hinjo didn't know was that he died, because Shojo kept the entire Cliffport excursion under his hat. Without knowing that he died, he couldn't raise him from the dead in time to be useful in the battle.

If he knew the wizard existed, and thought the wizard was still alive, why wasn't the wizard consulted about planning the battle?

And a second question: Shojo said that the wizard would be resurrected "tomorrow". Now we know that Shojo was killed the next day, but why would he have waited for the afternoon to resurrect the wizard? Why not resurrect him first thing in the morning, after the Cleric had refreshed his spells? And if he HAD resurrected him in the morning, it again brings up the question as to why Hinjo did not employ the wizard in defending the city.

I think the only logical explanation is that the wizard was in the employ of another noble, that he was resurrected the next morning and sent back to his employer (probably with some compensation for the lost level) and Hinjo was none the wiser. The term "in my personal staff" just meant "was working for me at the time"

She outright states "my master has ordered their execution for deeds against his interest" in an earlier strip. (If you're going to argue she genuinely believes it, well, she genuinely believed Shojo was working with Xykon too, and that wasn't good enough.)

Sure it was. After all, when she fought Hinjo she didn't lose her Paladin powers. It was only when she killed Shojo. So why should she lose them by fighting the Order? If she had killed one of them, then she certainly would have been stripped of her power, but we have explicit evidence in the comic that fighting someone over a cause that you believe to be Good but is instead Evil isn't enough to lose your Paladin powers. Therefore, it isn't much of a reach to believe that saying something that you believe to be true but is instead a lie isn't enough to lose you Paladin powers.