Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

[Zevox]

You start at 3000, I'm pretty sure (or you did during the closed beta).

Huh. Did they change the starting rank going from the closed beta to the open beta? Or am I badly misremembering the starting rank? Because I would have sworn it was 4k.

[zlefin]

iirc It was starting at 4000. at least I think that's what it was at when I started.
My rank is still at around 5k, haven't been playing as much. It's a neat mode, but I am wearying of it (and I started playing the LoL one that's similar, teamfight tactics).

It's always rather of an irritation how much it depends on the luck of the draws, especially when it comes to getting triples. When a game is still new and I'm learning, luck isn't so much an issue; as I get more experience and more optimized, the annoyingness of luck tends to increase for me. Like sometimes you've upgraded to tavern tier 5/6 and you still just don't get anything good.

I agree heroes like patches are weak, and iirc the win rate stats confirm that; though 1 gold powers at least are good at smoothing out turns (preventing wasted gold) in the midgame.

[heronbpv]

@zlefin:
I think it has more to do with knowing when to fish for better minions or scramble with what you have been dealt with, plus scouting your opponents in order to know how much risk you can take. I have find plenty of success diverging from the dominating strategies, for example going Piloted Sky Golem/Shredder + Khadgar + misc. deathrattle minions when I couldn't get neither of the other good mechs, with good results overall.

@Current Heroes pool:
As for the heroes, the better ones for me are clearly those which can boost their minions attack early on (Brann, Rat King, Yogg), followed by Patchwerk (safety from risky plays/bad starts in exchange for the extra 20 HP), and then the late game heroes (Divine Shield Oprah and Nefarian, and to an extend the menagerie hero). Then, there's the oddballs in A.F. Kay and Deryl, which can either snowball pretty hard early on, or fail spectacularly while trying to do so. All the other heroes are kind of low key in terms of game flow, by virtue of not impacting the board effectively (e.g. Patches, Piramad), or at all (e.g. Trade Prince, Elise), or by having a more specialized optimal game plan (e.g Putricide needs to rush Hydra, Lick King wants deathrattle synergy). It's not like they can't win, though. The basics, like minion composition and scaling, have a greater influence on the outcome of matches than the heroes powers.

[Zevox]

It's not like they [weaker heroes] can't win, though. The basics, like minion composition and scaling, have a greater influence on the outcome of matches than the heroes powers.

I'm not entirely sure about that. The heroes without a benefit in the early game can often just start off at a health deficit they can't do anything about without very good luck on the minions they're offered, if then, if they get paired with the ones whose hero powers do help them early. Brann, the Curator, Yogg, the Rat King, and AF Kay (after turn 3) meanwhile tend to start off so strong that they won't even start being in danger of doing worse than a tie (except against each other) until the mid-game, barring particularly bad luck, while heroes like Nefarian and Darryl start kicking in with very strong hero powers come the mid-game that give them an edge in surviving to the late game and winning in the long run. And Brann, the Curator, and the Rat King's powers remain relevant even into the late-game.

The heroes whose powers just aren't ever a particularly big benefit, like Patches or Gallywix, feel like they're at a substantial disadvantage compared to that bunch. They could get lucky, of course, or could have weaker players playing the better heroes who make worse decisions and lose for that, but if all players are similarly skilled, the odds are just obviously against them.

[Rynjin]

My issues with the ranked system for Battlegrounds can be summed up pretty well by my last two matches.

I got top 4 in a game, and gained 5 rank points.

I placed 6th in the next and lost 67 points.

Do they really expect me to win(ish) 14 games in a row just to eke out a bit of progress?

It's a good thing IDGAF about Ranked Battlegrounds. I can't imagine the nightmare a lot of the streamers and stuff are going through if this is the norm.

[heronbpv]

Funny, I once placed 5th and still won 5 points. I also have placed 4th and lost some... No idea how this works as well.

@Zevox:
At least for me, whenever I lose with a low key hero, it always seems like it's because of mistakes of mine than, say, lack of luck or some other heroes hero power overwhelming me.
That, and rushed lightfangs. That strategy is thankfully going to be nerfed.

[Zevox]

My issues with the ranked system for Battlegrounds can be summed up pretty well by my last two matches.

I got top 4 in a game, and gained 5 rank points.

I placed 6th in the next and lost 67 points.

Do they really expect me to win(ish) 14 games in a row just to eke out a bit of progress?

It's a good thing IDGAF about Ranked Battlegrounds. I can't imagine the nightmare a lot of the streamers and stuff are going through if this is the norm.

Hm, the low gain I would expect for a 4th place finish, but 67 point loss sounds more like what I'd expect from a 7th or 8th place loss than a 6th. Although, you said you haven't played much, and the number of points gained and lost is higher during your first 50 games (or something to that effect), so perhaps that's why that's going on? The bonus for that might just have little impact on a 4th place finish, and be more noticeable on a 6th place.

@Zevox:
At least for me, whenever I lose with a low key hero, it always seems like it's because of mistakes of mine than, say, lack of luck or some other heroes hero power overwhelming me.

I can definitely feel like my getting a weak hero has to do with it sometimes. You get put at a nasty deficit if you open by facing off against, for instance, the Curator and Brann on turns 1 and 2, then face AF Kay on turn 3 when she power spikes, followed by a match against a Rat King who has gotten his hero power buff every turn, all while you're playing as George or Elise. And losing a bunch of health early means that a little bad luck hits you a lot harder later.

That, and rushed lightfangs. That strategy is thankfully going to be nerfed.

Oh? Have they announced something about that somewhere?

If so, they should probably address Brann and Cobalt Guardian too. Because nerfing Lightfang will just mean that Brann becomes the way to do Menagerie, and Cobalt Guardian-based mech compositions will have lost one of their only real competitors.

[heronbpv]

Not sure if the nerf is officially stated somewhere, but a bunch of streamers kept talking about changes to the mode after the expansion hits, mentioning a lightfang nerf. So at this point, it's only hope.
Also, they kept mentioning dragons will be introduced to the format as tribe, and also possible new heroes (which means another hero rotation), so when the expansion comes into play, we'll see if the mech's domination remains unchallenged. Although for me at least, the most disgusting is murlocs with poison early on. It's soul crushing :(

[Zevox]

Fun aside: just had a first-place finish as Bartendotron using a team that started as pure Demons and transitioned into a demon-focused Menagerie after I picked up Lightfang - which quickly became Golden Lightfang. Did not think I would get out of that one even in top 4 with how the early game went, but a couple of risks paid off in spades when I was offered Soul Juggler and, shortly thereafter, pushed to tier 5 (a bit early, thanks to Bartendotron's hero power) and found a Void Lord. Even without tripling it, Soul Juggler with a Void Lord is pretty nasty, and if there's not enough poison around those Wrath Weavers can be as well.

Didn't ever find Malganis, but fortunately the menagerie transition kept my Wrath Weaver from killing me anyway.

Not sure if the nerf is officially stated somewhere, but a bunch of streamers kept talking about changes to the mode after the expansion hits, mentioning a lightfang nerf. So at this point, it's only hope.
Also, they kept mentioning dragons will be introduced to the format as tribe, and also possible new heroes (which means another hero rotation), so when the expansion comes into play, we'll see if the mech's domination remains unchallenged. Although for me at least, the most disgusting is murlocs with poison early on. It's soul crushing :(

Hm, well, that depends on whether they're talking about it as something that they hope happens, or that they have inside knowledge is going to happen.

The Dragon thing and hero rotation are ones I've seen, but only as speculation. Though both seem likely, given the Dragon theme of the expansion and their previous hero rotation.

As for Murlocs, they really can't get much poison until quite late? Their options to get it are either Toxfin, a tier 4 minion that only gives it to one Murloc, or Megasaur, which is tier 6. And even then, they need durability so that they don't just die to big divine shields on Mechs and Menagerie minions, which means either a lot of Seers or their own Divine Shields from Megasaur or George's hero power. They're one of the harder strategies to make work - strong early because of the token generation and Seer and Warleader mass buffs, but tend to fall apart in the mid-game before they can get to their late-game strength more often than not.

[heronbpv]

Mostly speaking through experience, since I got utterly trashed 4 games in a row by hordes of poisonous murlocs, and in only 1 of these games the guy rushed the Megasaur. Even being a 4 star minion, Toxifin is rather accessible, since murlocs can be discovered as well thanks to Primalfin, so it's not that unlikely. Also, Primalfin + Brann is disgusting.
I also saw a guy running with almost the build you described, with one upgraded soul juggler and another, not upgraded, one, plus golden Malganis and golden Voidlord. The horror man, my poor mechs... Still managed top 3 in this game.

[Zevox]

So, does anybody know if the "challenge a friend" quest works with Battlegrounds? Because I have it, and would really like that 80 gold in preparation for the new set, but would rather actually be playing Battlegrounds than normal Hearthstone right now.

[zlefin]

One change battlegrounds oculd really use: more even distribution of what foes you face. As is, you sometimes have to face the same person with only one intervening match. I'd really prefer to face a fuller rotation of nearly everyone, especially in the early/mid when there's enough people it's very easy to ensure that. It's annoying when you have ot face the same power deck twice in short order.

[Psionic Dog]

So, does anybody know if the "challenge a friend" quest works with Battlegrounds? Because I have it, and would really like that 80 gold in preparation for the new set, but would rather actually be playing Battlegrounds than normal Hearthstone right now.

I don't think so. I just tried that but my quest wasn't consumed. Either it doesn't work or only the friend you challenge gets the reward. I also discovered that battleground challenge-a-friend is casual-mode: I finished 6th, my friend finished 3rd, and both of us got ±0 rank change.

[Rynjin]

One change battlegrounds oculd really use: more even distribution of what foes you face. As is, you sometimes have to face the same person with only one intervening match. I'd really prefer to face a fuller rotation of nearly everyone, especially in the early/mid when there's enough people it's very easy to ensure that. It's annoying when you have ot face the same power deck twice in short order.

I know a change like this is in the works, so you'll never play against the same person more than once every 3 games.

[Stevesciguy]

Welp, Control Warrior is dead and buried. And every other deck that relies on armor. Go ahead and disenchant Thekal if you have him. Linecracker Druid was fun while it lasted. Say hello to our new aggro overlords

New card:

Platebreaker:
Neutral Common Minion
5/5/5
Battlecry: Destroy your opponent's armor.

[Geno9999]

Welp, Control Warrior is dead and buried. And every other deck that relies on armor. Go ahead and disenchant Thekal if you have him. Linecracker Druid was fun while it lasted. Say hello to our new aggro overlords

New card:

Platebreaker:
Neutral Common Minion
5/5/5
Battlecry: Destroy your opponent's armor.

Hah, nice try with that repost from r/CustomHearthstone, Blizzard wouldn't be THAT crazy.

*goes to Out of Cards.*

...welp.

Even as a player who plays mostly aggro to midrange decks, I don't think I like this card. I would understand if this was an Epic rarity, but holy moly, it's a freaking common so everyone is going to open like 5 copies on expansion release. On the other hand, not every class gets that much armor in the first place, so this is a 5 Mana "Deal maybe 5 damage if any to the enemy Hero" 5/5 Minion. Not every deck runs Acidic Swamp Ooze despite 5 out of 9 having access to weapons, and Swamp Ooze has an alright statline that didn't hurt it against the other 4. But a 5 mana 5/5 that doesn't do anything against anyone who isn't Warrior or Druid (and sometimes Paladin) doesn't seem like it gets in unless said classes start getting out of hand.

No, this seems more a Control/Mirror Matchup Tech.

[Rynjin]

Welp, Control Warrior is dead and buried. And every other deck that relies on armor. Go ahead and disenchant Thekal if you have him. Linecracker Druid was fun while it lasted. Say hello to our new aggro overlords

New card:

Platebreaker:
Neutral Common Minion
5/5/5
Battlecry: Destroy your opponent's armor.

Hallelujah.

[Hamste]

Yeah 5 mana 5/5 that either does no damage or does a mild amount of damage probably isn't good enough for aggro. Nightblade might actually be better than this card in an aggro deck (still not good), it is 1/1 lower and just does 3 but that is still more than what platebreaker does for 7 out of 9 match ups and those last 2 your opponent needs to have played a few specific armor gaining cards the turn before and to not have immediately lost that armor to kill your minion. (If your opponent has 2 armor because you have been beating them down and they just armored up, this is not a good card. 5 mana 5/5 do 2 damage to the enemy hero isn't good enough for aggro.).

If this sees play it means that some control or combo warrior or druid has gotten out of control and the other control decks or finite combo decks need a way to actually kill them.

[Rynjin]

It's excellent for midrange decks more than anything. Superior value and resource use wins the game, instead of steady forced attrition with no counterplay.

[Tvtyrant]

It makes that priest creature that replaces health with armor even worse, otherwise seems like a draft card.

[Rodin]

Yeah 5 mana 5/5 that either does no damage or does a mild amount of damage probably isn't good enough for aggro. Nightblade might actually be better than this card in an aggro deck (still not good), it is 1/1 lower and just does 3 but that is still more than what platebreaker does for 7 out of 9 match ups and those last 2 your opponent needs to have played a few specific armor gaining cards the turn before and to not have immediately lost that armor to kill your minion. (If your opponent has 2 armor because you have been beating them down and they just armored up, this is not a good card. 5 mana 5/5 do 2 damage to the enemy hero isn't good enough for aggro.).

If this sees play it means that some control or combo warrior or druid has gotten out of control and the other control decks or finite combo decks need a way to actually kill them.

Yeah, feels like the wrong expansion for this card. We needed it back when Odd Warrior and Druid were running out of control. I don't see it getting played even against Control Warrior at the moment, because that deck isn't heavily focused on gaining armor.

It's a tech card at best, and likely only for tournament play.

It makes that priest creature that replaces health with armor even worse, otherwise seems like a draft card.

Thekal's a Paladin card actually, and saw a fair bit of play in Shirvallah decks in Grandmasters. I think Shirvallah decks are already out of favor though, so running this card as a counter isn't likely.

Biggest effect this card has is putting a lid on armor gain decks in Wild.

For Standard, it will mostly impact future metas. Can't go for a pure armor up plan until this rotates out, and I wouldn't be surprised if some combo decks run one as a way to guarantee a kill.

[Rynjin]

I see it more as future-proofing for a while, at least, any of the insane armor gain decks that might arise in the next two years. It may be designed so they can print an Earthen Scales-like card in Standard again at some point without Armor Druid becoming the new Standard meta.

[Zevox]

Welp, Control Warrior is dead and buried. And every other deck that relies on armor. Go ahead and disenchant Thekal if you have him. Linecracker Druid was fun while it lasted. Say hello to our new aggro overlords

New card:

Platebreaker:
Neutral Common Minion
5/5/5
Battlecry: Destroy your opponent's armor.

Well. Put that up with Mecha'thun on the "cards I think should never have been printed" list.

So, I guess Battlegrounds is the new Hearthstone now, basically. Wonder how long it'll take them to screw that up too?

[Rodin]

Well. Put that up with Mecha'thun on the "cards I think should never have been printed" list.

So, I guess Battlegrounds is the new Hearthstone now, basically. Wonder how long it'll take them to screw that up too?

I disagree completely, I've been begging for a card like this since...well, since Justicar Trueheart. There is nothing more infuriating in Hearthstone than your opponent armoring up beyond the possibility of ever realistically hurting them, and that's doubly true if they have some sort of instant win condition (Malygos, C'Thun, Mecha'Thun, etc) that you cannot stop unless you burn them down. It's especially irritating when a combo meta comes around and you enjoy playing a class that doesn't have access to armor.

Armor isn't just healing, it's Life+ - it functions exactly the same way, but you can go over 30 HP and cannot have that life stripped by Alexstrasza. It makes sense to have a counter that punishes someone who relies too heavily on it.

Also of note is how Blizzard has responded to the Armor Meta of last year - they haven't printed ANY armor gain cards that are meta viable in the two expansions since the rotation. It's clear they were aware of the problem, and have now decided to address it another way. Trump's assessment of the card is bang on - this expansion it's a 1-star card, but the card's existence means that they can now print proper armor gain cards again.

Kudos to Blizzard for this one. Still not sure whether I'm going to buy packs for this expansion or not, since I didn't wind up playing any ranked last expansion. Depends on whether a deck appears that catches my interest or not, I guess.

[Eurus]

Seems like a good card for dealing with linecracker druid, at least. Which is fortunate for me, because I think linecracker druid is pretty dumb.

[Stevesciguy]

Seems like a good card for dealing with linecracker druid, at least. Which is fortunate for me, because I think linecracker druid is pretty dumb.

Do you really want to run a card just for a deck that makes up <1% of the game?

[Zevox]

There is nothing more infuriating in Hearthstone than your opponent armoring up beyond the possibility of ever realistically hurting them,

Oh, I can think of quite a few things. Such as a card being made whose very existence hard counters your favorite deck in the game's history, and which isn't even understatted. More than once.

Seriously, armor is a central feature of the Warrior class identity. It's what their damned hero power does for crying out loud, and outside of specifically decks that benefit a lot from armor that's the worst hero power in the game. It's a central mechanic to how the class survives to play the long game. Printing a card that just hard negates that entire mechanic is such a horrible move that I can't even describe it.

But so be it. If Blizzard can't even get through the one thing in the game that's supposed to be unambiguously exciting, the reveal of the new cards for an upcoming set, without finding a way to make me hate them as much as their damned nerfs to important classic cards do, then I probably shouldn't be playing Hearthstone. Fortunately, Battlegrounds at least is fun - and for all my other multiplayer game needs, hey, the entire fighting game genre's not going anywhere, and playing BBTag of late has been a pure joy that I can't say I've felt playing Hearthstone in years. Pity I may not have a card game to play anymore, since Battlegrounds isn't really a card game, but oh well.

[Manticoran]

I think it's very unlikely you'll ever see it played honestly. It's just such a dead card in so many matches. Maybe you'll see it in tournament tech as an effective sideboard depending on format, or if something randomly generates it? But it doesn't have tags so the chances of that happening and being a useful card when it does are just so ludicrously low.

[Resileaf]

I can understand making it possible to let a card ensure that those combos that lets you have several tens of thousands of armor can get countered in some way, as those seem somewhat unfair.
But it does make it sting when you're using armor to counter extreme aggro and spell-slinging face decks that cannot be survived otherwise.

[Rodin]

I can understand making it possible to let a card ensure that those combos that lets you have several tens of thousands of armor can get countered in some way, as those seem somewhat unfair.
But it does make it sting when you're using armor to counter extreme aggro and spell-slinging face decks that cannot be survived otherwise.

I find it highly unlikely that aggro decks would use this card. It's a 5 mana 5/5 that does nothing against 6 out of the 8 classes, and an aggro deck wouldn't leave any armor to strip anyway. It's simply not good enough a card to be run except as a specific counter to extreme amounts of armor.

The one case where it could be problematic is for Combo decks that are dealing 30-ish damage to the face. Even then, running this as a counter to only 1 or 2 classes seems a bit iffy for ladder. Especially since you typically can't use this card AND nuke for 30 in a single turn, meaning that the Druid or Warrior can play around it by holding armor cards for the post-Platebreaker turn.

My prediction: Sees no play at all this expansion, and shows up only as a tech card in tournament play in future expansions.