OOTS #1166 - The Discussion Thread

[zimmerwald1915]

That's asinine. Honorable death has to do with the way you die, not your profession. Dying accidentally is not dying with honor wether you are a miner or a soldier.

Tenrin died in an accidental cave-in, and presumably died honorably - because the cave-in took place during combat, where a soldier might expect to find himself. The Suppertime Club died in an accidental gas leak, and were considered not to have died honorably because there was no combat involved.

There's also creating roads, ventilation chimneys, light sources and whatever else actually living 24/7/12 underground requires. Also ventialtion doesn't save you when you stumble unto a pocket of poison gas. And anyway they were mining copper.
I would also like to know your basis for the whole "the goal of the industry is the same so the pravailing practices are the same".

Okay, so they were mining copper. We know what copper mining is like, it has existed as an industry in our world for millennia. We've seen dwarven tools, and they're not unfamiliar, which means production best practices contemporary to those tools should also be familiar. We know dwarves spend most of their time underground - if anything this is a pretext for mine owners to keep their workers laboring in the shafts and making profit for them longer. "It's not like you're going to get fresher air or see the sun anyway!

Let me rephrase, "How do you know they didn't have other job opportunities?

Mining sucks. Even the proudest pit communities, including in Yorkshire and West Virginia at their heights, acknowledged this reality and much of their pride came from having fought for and won certain protections 1) against abusive hour- and rate-setting practices and 2) against its ravages on the body. The rest of it came from having endured intolerable conditions for so long and with such grit.

Mining interests also tend to dominate their local areas' labor markets, in large part through gaining dominion over local politics and hedging out competition both from other firms and from other industries.

We can observe that pit communities tend not to have much other job opportunities generally. Even if we're reluctant to extend that observation to dwarven lands, we still have to reckon with mining sucking - and sucking so much that 1) it kills people and 2) the Suppertime Club did resolve to abandon it. The point is, it's absurd that they were able to with no more advantages after their deaths than they had before.

How many mamals have two livers? How many were designed by gods to live underground and fit an archetype?
And even then, maybe dying of rock dust poisining as a miner counts as an honorable death.

Silicosis is pretty clearly a chronic disease, and within Hel's domain.

Why are you using livers to make a point about lungs (not that dwarven livers turn alcohol consumption into an advantage; they are merely resilient and efficient)?

We both know Durkon wouldn't lie to Sigdi.

He doesn't have to know either. It's not like he'd know usual treatment from being coddled, bless his young, innocent heart.

Also, Durkon wasn't maimed, what are you talking about?

It's a hypothetical. Of course Durkon wasn't maimed - Shirrah would have taken special precautions to ensure he wasn't, because it would be impossible to hide from Sigdi. Unlike any nepotism he may have benefitted from, the evidence of which can be confined entirely to Shirrah's head.

[martianmister]

I disagree, because Malack's criticism was "Stop putting your children above mine" and Tarquin continued to do just that while lying to Malack's face about it. Tarquin didn't really accept his criticism, he simply defused the situation

To be fair, it's really hard for a living person to accept vampire spawns as children.

[Fyraltari]

Tenrin died in an accidental cave-in, and presumably died honorably - because the cave-in took place during combat, where a soldier might expect to find himself.

No he didn't. He caused the cave-in.

The Suppertime Club died in an accidental gas leak, and were considered not to have died honorably because there was no combat involved.

The giant has stated a few times that combat, although the most common way to die hnonrably, is not a requirement. There's the caravan story and the poltician getting assassinated one. The only thing that all the honorable deaths had in common is that they are a direct consequence of a choice made to endanger one-self in an obvious way. That's why the accidents aren't hnorable.

Okay, so they were mining copper. We know what copper mining is like, it has existed as an industry in our world for millennia. We've seen dwarven tools, and they're not unfamiliar, which means production best practices contemporary to those tools should also be familiar. We know dwarves spend most of their time underground - if anything this is a pretext for mine owners to keep their workers laboring in the shafts and making profit for them longer. "It's not like you're going to get fresher air or see the sun anyway!

But that's the thing, because mining conditions are unpleasant, it's a job people don't want so those who choose it are generally desperate giving employers more leeway to worsen their working conditions for their own gains. We have no reason to assume the same is true for dwarves.

Mining sucks. Even the proudest pit communities, including in Yorkshire and West Virginia at their heights, acknowledged this reality and much of their pride came from having fought for and won certain protections 1) against abusive hour- and rate-setting practices and 2) against its ravages on the body. The rest of it came from having endured intolerable conditions for so long and with such grit.

And why are you certain the dwarves have not won those same battles and more?

Mining interests also tend to dominate their local areas' labor markets, in large part through gaining dominion over local politics and hedging out competition both from other firms and from other industries.

But we know the dwarves have other jobs: clerics, bards, soldiers, jelly cubes (or whatever) racers, etc.

We can observe that pit communities tend not to have much other job opportunities generally. Even if we're reluctant to extend that observation to dwarven lands, we still have to reckon with mining sucking - and sucking so much that 1) it kills people and 2) the Suppertime Club did resolve to abandon it.

We know of one who abandonned mining and one who became a mining boss. Out of five.

The point is, it's absurd that they were able to with no more advantages after their deaths than they had before.

That is only absurd if you assume they were trapped to begin with.
Scratch that, it's not absurd because as I have already stated, they did have more resource after death than before. Shirra won her case. She could have lended or given money to Squeaky.

Silicosis is pretty clearly a chronic disease, and within Hel's domain.

So?

Why are you using livers to make a point about lungs (not that dwarven livers turn alcohol consumption into an advantage; they are merely resilient and efficient)?

To underline that there biology is different from humans. We know that ten pints in ten seconds don't faze them. The gods gave them two livers to accomodate the "heavy drinkers" part of the dwarven archetype. Makes sense that they would give them lungs with a better resistance to rock dust to accomodate "live inside mountains and love mining" parts.

He doesn't have to know either. It's not like he'd know usual treatment from being coddled, bless his young, innocent heart.

Yeah I think he'd notice if he had to work for less long than the others or something.

It's a hypothetical. Of course Durkon wasn't maimed - Shirrah would have taken special precautions to ensure he wasn't, because it would be impossible to hide from Sigdi. Unlike any nepotism he may have benefitted from, the evidence of which can be confined entirely to Shirrah's head.

And where are you going with this hypothetical?

[CriticalFailure]

They're not only fantasy dwarves but parody fantasy dwarves; mining is almost certainly the most common profession in their society. Because that's what fantasy dwarves do.

[Fyraltari]

Zimmer, I realize we may wander to the wrong-side of the politic ban with this discussion. I don't think we've actually crossed it yet, but we should be cautious.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Tenrin died in an accidental cave-in, and presumably died honorably - because the cave-in took place during combat, where a soldier might expect to find himself.

There was nothing accidental about Tenrin's death. He deliberately brought the roof down on the half-dragon troll and himself to give the survivors of the monster squad a chance to get out alive.

[zimmerwald1915]

Zimmer, I realize we may wander to the wrong-side of the politic ban with this discussion. I don't think we've actually crossed it yet, but we should be cautious.

Fair enough. Before we break it off, though, I'll cop to misremembering the circumstances of Tenrin's death.

[Aveline]

Here's my two cents: every dwarf whom Sigdi had gotten raised, went from not having a family, to having a family. Even besides Shirra's windfall (which I assume she shared), five people who feel intrinsically bound to support each other and their saviour will each have more support than they had as loners with no family. And familial support is a huge deal.

So in my view, it's not at all as if they were in the same position after resurrection as they were in the day before they died in a gas leak. Lawsuit or no lawsuit, it simply isn't comparable.

[zimmerwald1915]

Here's my two cents: every dwarf whom Sigdi had gotten raised, went from not having a family, to having a family. Even besides Shirra's windfall (which I assume she shared), five people who feel intrinsically bound to support each other and their saviour will each have more support than they had as loners with no family. And familial support is a huge deal.

So in my view, it's not at all as if they were in the same position after resurrection as they were in the day before they died in a gas leak. Lawsuit or no lawsuit, it simply isn't comparable.

Okay, I know I said I'd drop this line of discussion, but the suggestion that all anyone needs to *ahem* escape a culture of poverty is a stable family is so objectionable and freighted that someone ought to object.

[Aveline]

Okay, I know I said I'd drop this line of discussion, but the suggestion that all anyone needs to *ahem* escape a culture of poverty is a stable family is so objectionable and freighted that someone ought to object.

I didn't say that it's all anyone needs. I said it makes a big difference, as a counter to the notion that "all they needed to get out of a life in the mines was a kick in the pants". A kick in the pants isn't all they got.

[zimmerwald1915]

I didn't say that it's all anyone needs. I said it makes a big difference, as a counter to the notion that "all they needed to get out of a life in the mines was a kick in the pants". A kick in the pants isn't all they got.

A stable family unit and a bit of gumption being the difference between drudgery and success is. . . still not an unfreighted point to be making. Not in the least.

*bites tongue to avoid mentioning just who is associated with propagating this line, and why*

[Aveline]

A stable family unit and a bit of gumption being the difference between drudgery and success is. . . still not an unfreighted point to be making. Not in the least.

I didn't say that either (although the comic may be saying that, if taken under a strictly class-based analysis). By "a huge deal" I don't mean "the difference between drudgery and success". I just mean that it's a huge deal. They get encouragement and support from each other and can overcome various emotional barriers that they wouldn't have been able to before.

I'm pretty sure your original point was that they must have only had emotional barriers and no economic barriers, if we take the story at face value. I could agree with that (although I have been known to misinterpret people). My point is that emotional barriers are real and familial support is a big difference in that regard.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm pretty sure your original point was that they must have only had emotional barriers and no economic barriers, if we take the story at face value. I could agree with that (although I have been known to misinterpret people). My point is that emotional barriers are real and familial support is a big difference in that regard.

My original point was that, in your words, "the comic [is] saying that." That economic barriers can be overcome by will alone, and that poor life outcomes are solely down to personal responsibility.

[Aveline]

My original point was that, in your words, "the comic [is] saying that." That economic barriers can be overcome by will alone, and that poor life outcomes are solely down to personal responsibility.

... I was going to argue that the comic is simply ignoring economic barriers with its narrative, choosing to focus on emotional barriers instead, but then I realized that's basically a restatement of what you're saying.

Well, carry on, I suppose.

[Fish]

Mining sucks.

For humans. Dwarves actually live underground. You are equating humans mining on earth without magic, to dwarves mining in OOTS. Humans aren’t adapted to living underground; dwarves are. What a human calls a hellish, inhospitable death trap of a mine, a dwarf calls his living room. Mining for fantasy dwarves is practically a work-from-home career, using the same skill set that a dwarf would use remodeling his house.

I get that you have great sympathy for the plight of the modern miner, and it’s a worthy attitude to take. Fantasy dwarves equipped with underground directional sense, darkvision, and magic spells don’t really have the same hardships.

[Aveline]

For humans. Dwarves actually live underground. You are equating humans mining on earth without magic, to dwarves mining in OOTS. Humans aren’t adapted to living underground; dwarves are. What a human calls a hellish, inhospitable death trap of a mine, a dwarf calls his living room. Mining for fantasy dwarves is practically a work-from-home career, using the same skill set that a dwarf would use remodeling his house.

I get that you have great sympathy for the plight of the modern miner, and it’s a worthy attitude to take. Fantasy dwarves equipped with underground directional sense, darkvision, and magic spells don’t really have the same hardships.

Apparently though, dwarves still die in mines.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Apparently though, dwarves still die in mines.

Humans can die in the safety of their own home.

[kiapet]

I cannot believe we are arguing about whether mining is a crap job for dwarves. DWARVES. Who from their inception have been synonymous with mining and forging.

[CriticalFailure]

I cannot believe we are arguing about whether mining is a crap job for dwarves. DWARVES. Who from their inception have been synonymous with mining and forging.

ikr that was my response, they are dwarves; they are parody fantasy dwarves no less; mining is basically most of their economy along with smithing and beer. They like being underground. The dwarf equivalent of our world's miners is going to be whoever has to supply them with wood.

[Algeh]

ikr that was my response, they are dwarves; they are parody fantasy dwarves no less; mining is basically most of their economy along with smithing and beer. They like being underground. The dwarf equivalent of our world's miners is going to be whoever has to supply them with wood.

I am now rooting for a 3-5 page side-story in the next book about dwarven lumberjacks.

[Snails]

I am now rooting for a 3-5 page side-story in the next book about dwarven lumberjacks.

Ooooo!
I bet normal dwarves think that going into a forest full of trees and taking care of business is only for the most insane and macho badasses. The equivalent of being a professional Enthunter in Fangorn -- only a career choice for those who want to go to Valhalla as soon as practical.

[Fyraltari]

I am now rooting for a 3-5 page side-story in the next book about dwarven lumberjacks.

Dwarven farmers.

[Blatt]

Dwarves must have geriatric kamikaze battalions.

[Mightymosy]

No he didn't. He caused the cave-in.

The giant has stated a few times that combat, although the most common way to die hnonrably, is not a requirement. There's the caravan story and the poltician getting assassinated one. The only thing that all the honorable deaths had in common is that they are a direct consequence of a choice made to endanger one-self in an obvious way. That's why the accidents aren't hnorable.




But that's the thing, because mining conditions are unpleasant, it's a job people don't want so those who choose it are generally desperate giving employers more leeway to worsen their working conditions for their own gains. We have no reason to assume the same is true for dwarves.



And why are you certain the dwarves have not won those same battles and more?




But we know the dwarves have other jobs: clerics, bards, soldiers, jelly cubes (or whatever) racers, etc.



We know of one who abandonned mining and one who became a mining boss. Out of five.


That is only absurd if you assume they were trapped to begin with.
Scratch that, it's not absurd because as I have already stated, they did have more resource after death than before. Shirra won her case. She could have lended or given money to Squeaky.



So?


To underline that there biology is different from humans. We know that ten pints in ten seconds don't faze them. The gods gave them two livers to accomodate the "heavy drinkers" part of the dwarven archetype. Makes sense that they would give them lungs with a better resistance to rock dust to accomodate "live inside mountains and love mining" parts.




Yeah I think he'd notice if he had to work for less long than the others or something.


And where are you going with this hypothetical?

Ok now this is some contradiction I have never thought about.

But your statement makes something obvious:

If the caravan lady and politician get a honorable death because they put themselves into danger, why don't miners get honorable deaths as well?
Even if Dwarves are born to mine, it is still dangerous. Or was the poison gas the one and only ever mining accident, and otherwise mining is considered completely non-dangerous?

[Fyraltari]

Ok now this is some contradiction I have never thought about.

But your statement makes something obvious:

If the caravan lady and politician get a honorable death because they put themselves into danger, why don't miners get honorable deaths as well?
Even if Dwarves are born to mine, it is still dangerous. Or was the poison gas the one and only ever mining accident, and otherwise mining is considered completely non-dangerous?

I’d say because the poltician knew their adversaries were willing to kill and the storm was obviously deadly. But the Dining five had no way to know there was danger digging there.

[Mightymosy]

Which wouldn't make much sense, no?
Any mine can collapse, not even talking about poison gas or the various monsters that dwell in mines in D&D land.
Oh, and tree roots. That make tunnels collapse.

[Fyraltari]

Which wouldn't make much sense, no?
Any mine can collapse, not even talking about poison gas or the various monsters that dwell in mines in D&D land.
Oh, and tree roots. That make tunnels collapse.

And fighting those tree roots and monsters is honorable. And mines don’t collapse if you do your job well.

Let’s ask the question the other way around, if dying in a mining accident was honorable wouldn’t all accidental deaths be honorable?

[Mightymosy]

If the accidents are foreseeable risks, yes.
Which is exactly my point.

Good thing the caravan story and politician story are not in the comic. In the comic it is clear: alcohol or battle.
I think the Giant just tried to make it sound less stupid as an afterthought, but really I don't think it adds up well if it were canon.

[Fyraltari]

If the accidents are foreseeable risks, yes.
Which is exactly my point.

All accidents are foreseeable. If you cross a road and get killed by a moving vehicle is that honorable? If the ladder you are on breaks and you break your neck falling is that honorable?

I think it’s pretty clear that it’s either dying in combat (with alcohol counting as combat on behalf of the livers) and/or dying trying to protect someone, as shown with the burning orphanage hedge case.

[Mightymosy]

All accidents are foreseeable. If you cross a road and get killed by a moving vehicle is that honorable? If the ladder you are on breaks and you break your neck falling is that honorable?

I think it’s pretty clear that it’s either dying in combat (with alcohol counting as combat on behalf of the livers) and/or dying trying to protect someone, as shown with the burning orphanage hedge case.

The "protect" part would kinda solve this, but is that something you made up or found in the comic or the Giant stories?

ETA: Maybe even that only helps but doesn't solve.
Does fighting for self defense count?
How about working in the dangerous mine to sustain oneself, then?

Really, it's a backwards ethics system and I'm not sure the Giant has chosen well to include it AND try to make it reasonable by giving it some reason with the Hel bet and world setup.