Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

[LansXero]

Funny, as when the Orks had an Attack Moon over Terra, they spent weeks doing nothing, until the humans attacked them, protected themselves in self defence, then sent down an ork ambassador. It proceeds to offer peace terms. Mankinds response was bloodthirsty and violent. The narrative directly calls the Ork as the most civilized being in the room.

Because the Emperor had already put the fear of humanity into them by crushing Ullanor.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I am not sure if the big no-no by the establishment was "we are able to read message from the Astronomicon" or if it was "the message tells us that the Ecclesiarchy and the Mechanicus should merge into a single cult!!"

Yeah, I forgot that part. I assumed that simply reading the word of the Omnissiah from random patterns was heresy enough.

Given that, it’s surprising that the Sons of Medusa are still existing. They probably walked back the more outlandish elements, I’m guessing.

On it’s own, analysing patterns isn’t exactly a crime. Just a matter of the Moirae interpretation. The fact that such an idea could emerge among the AdMech in the first place indicates to me that similar things could occur again. Given how each Forge World basically governs itself, I can see some of them having unique eccentricities.

[Forum Explorer]

Catch-22. You're powerful enough that you can make all the right noises about 'fighting Chaos' and can resist when Chaos notices and comes to recruit you, but not powerful enough to fight off the rest of the galaxy that HAS fallen to Chaos' sway and comes to collect your skulls.



The bit about using only humans to protect human interests is spot on; the Primarchs were supposed to had led armies of humans in the first place. There's a few plot lines that suggest that (apart from Magnus who was going to sit on the Golden Throne) the Primarchs were intended to eventually kill each other and become extinct so that humanities' destiny would be in the hands of humans... then the Space Marines were pushed off the production line at zero notice after they went missing, which was what caused all the trouble in the first place.

Same for the Interex. Had they gone onto a "total war" footing then they could have defended themselves from outside aggressors but only had demi-humans going rogue, rather than having to deal with rogue demiGODS like the Primarchs. Militarising solves one of the afore-said problems, and not doing it with Astartes makes it easier to contain the other.

The part about the Emperor having plenty of time isn't quite right. On the local scale, yes, kind of - he's the most powerful individual in the universe and his rise to domination was inevitable provided he didn't act like a complete dumbass (spoilers: he acted like a complete dumbass) BUT on a galactic scale, humanity was on a precipice.

Thanks to the birth of Slaanesh and the fall of the Eldar allowing the warp to clear and become accessible, then in only a handful of generations humans were going to become an increasingly psychic species and thus the threat of catastrophic warp-incursion was becoming exponentially more likely. *Someone* needed to get a hold of that situation because for every day that psykers were exploding and dooming a world to fiery death, was a day that humanity got weaker and the warp grew stronger. Any sufficiently powerful and educated leader could have done the task of uniting humanity and containing psykers, but at the time the Emperor happened to be the most knowledgable about the threat and had the resources available to do it sooner rather than later.

The race was on, not just to unite humanity before some idiot cultist like Kor Phaeron did it first and signed the galaxy up to the Primordial Truth but because significant parts of the galaxy were exploding while waiting for him to arrive.

Chaos isn't unified though, so even if three different empires have all fallen to Chaos, they won't be working together to wipe you out. Not any more than three non-Chaos empires would be anyways.

See, I don't quite agree with that. Most planets that we see in the Great Crusade are stable, even if the status quo wasn't exactly a positive one. And even 10 000 years later humanity hasn't exactly become a massive psychic force of constant rogue psykers and the like. I mean, it's rare enough that most people go through their lives never meeting any kind of psyker. So he did have time. I'd say the more pressing timer is the arrival of the Tyranids, but I think he had enough time that he could build an Imperium equivalent in 10 000 years without using Space Marines.

And yet its shown as fact that when its
the Imperium dies. Even if you could debilitate Chaos by going all peacy nicey, whats going to stop the Beast from tearing you in half? What, are you going to diplomacy the Orkz into going against their genetic mandate of endless fighting? And what happens when the Necrons eventually awaken?

Not suggesting that a massive military isn't necessary. But being completely genocidal towards aliens? Using Space Marines? Being brutally callous when it comes to casualties? None of that is necessary. Particularly that last one. Commander Chenkov should be shot for incompetence.

[LCP]

And yet its shown as fact that when its gone the Imperium dies.

If you build something around a massive single-point failure, it also doesn't mean you couldn't have built it differently (and better).

Even if you could debilitate Chaos by going all peacy nicey, whats going to stop the Beast from tearing you in half? What, are you going to diplomacy the Orkz into going against their genetic mandate of endless fighting? And what happens when the Necrons eventually awaken?

This is kind of also my point - claiming that there are existential external threats that require the sacrifice of liberty and happiness to defend against is pretty much straight out of the Authoritarian Dictator Handbook. It's the argument the Emperor/Imperium presents in-universe, you shouldn't read it uncritically. There are dozens of other sentient species on the 40K universe that have survived for thousands or millions of years without signing up to the Imperial strategy and ideology.

Treating every alien species as an existential threat demanding extermination is (patently obviously) untrue - you just have to ask yourself "why haven't all the aliens destroyed each other" to see why. Just to take one example, the Orks were created for the War in Heaven, so they've been around for 65 million years but somehow haven't driven the Eldar extinct (or snuffed out humanity in the cradle).

Of course it's a narrative weakness of 40K that, being a smorgasbord of wargame factions, it's always telling several stories at once, and one or two of those stories (Tyranids, Necrons - though I think the Necrons are presented as less omnicidal now?) are genuinely about galaxy-wide extinction events. However, those threats are threats that arose ~10,000 years after the Emperor died and the Imperium took shape, and they're threats that look like they're coming regardless of whether or not the Imperium gets in the way. They're largely decoupled from the story of how the Imperium got to be the way it is.

The Imperium's story is about what happens when humanity takes its worst tendencies into space instead of its best. The Emperor's project is very clearly modelled on 19th- and 20th-century dictators, and that's not just expressed literally, but also very clearly telegraphed through the choice of language and aesthetics of the Imperium. Fans taking it as "ah yes, the future is a boot stepping on a human face forever, but actually that's for the best" make me super uncomfortable with my fellow travellers in the hobby.

[Wraith]

Emprah

Deuterio, is that you?

Chaos isn't unified though, so even if three different empires have all fallen to Chaos, they won't be working together to wipe you out. Not any more than three non-Chaos empires would be anyways.

That's kind of my point - Chaos doesn't need to be completely unified, it just needs to be big enough. Those three example empires don't have to be working together, if all 3 of them throw themselves at you one after another and make the Gods happier and more powerful with each others' deaths.

You're absolutely right, it's not guaranteed, but the Emperor's idea of having a hugely powerful empire rather than several smaller, scattered ones at least gives humanity a position of power from which to deal with such things.

See, I don't quite agree with that. Most planets that we see in the Great Crusade are stable, even if the status quo wasn't exactly a positive one. And even 10 000 years later humanity hasn't exactly become a massive psychic force of constant rogue psykers and the like. I mean, it's rare enough that most people go through their lives never meeting any kind of psyker. So he did have time.

Another paradox, I think. In the Horus Heresy novels we see something like ~40 planets in person and are told about roughly the same again by people talking about old campaigns, but the Imperium at its peak is comprised of about a million worlds (according to the propaganda, anyway). Saying that "most planets we see are stable" doesn't really give us a decent picture of just how violent the crusade could be on average.

SImilarly, most people in the 41st millenium have never seen a psyker and the vast majority of worlds have never plunged into psychic armageddon; maybe that's BECAUSE the Imperium has spent 10,000 years cracking down on them and feeding them to the Emperor's soul machine? One of the main themes about the Imperium is that as crap-sack and disfunctional as it is, it seems to be more-or-less working and no one has yet come up with a better idea!

Not suggesting that a massive military isn't necessary. But being completely genocidal towards aliens? Using Space Marines? Being brutally callous when it comes to casualties? None of that is necessary. Particularly that last one. Commander Chenkov should be shot for incompetence.

One of the best things 40k ever did was codify what it means to be grimdark and to run with it proudly and gloriously. One of the worst thing it ever did, was fail to move on to anything else and let it just get more and more ridiculous over time

[LansXero]

If you build something around a massive single-point failure, it also doesn't mean you couldn't have built it differently (and better).

Its built around turmoil in the warp engulfing what viable routes are left and bleeding into real space due to the destruction of the Pylons. Thats what the Astronomicon is for, and what enables the Imperium to survive; anything not-a-giant-psychic-beacon (like Tau's super slow FTL tech) wouldnt work on the scale the Imperium does.

This is kind of also my point - claiming that there are existential external threats that require the sacrifice of liberty and happiness to defend against is pretty much straight out of the Authoritarian Dictator Handbook. It's the argument the Emperor/Imperium presents in-universe, you shouldn't read it uncritically.

But they do exist. Even if you could somehow diplomance the Orcs, there is no diplomancing the Hive Mind. Even if Necron Dynasties arent as omnicidal as before, there are still several of them plenty willing to erradicate all sentient life from entire subsectors. Its not "oh well, so we get conquered and serfed" its "oh well so we get eaten / blasted to literal aroms".

There are dozens of other sentient species on the 40K universe that have survived for thousands or millions of years without signing up to the Imperial strategy and ideology.

And then died to the Imperium. Which means the Imperial strategy and ideology worked better for the long term survival of the species. Why glorify the loser's way when they, you know, lost?

Treating every alien species as an existential threat demanding extermination is (patently obviously) untrue - you just have to ask yourself "why haven't all the aliens destroyed each other" to see why. Just to take one example, the Orks were created for the War in Heaven, so they've been around for 65 million years but somehow haven't driven the Eldar extinct (or snuffed out humanity in the cradle).

Would this be the green aliens that have multi-planet wars amongst themselves for fun? Or the metallic alliens that did exterminate most life in the galaxy then went to sleep? Or the chitinous aliens who are currently bent on turning everyone else into biomass? Or the long eared aliens that muder****ed a chaos god into existance, tore a hole in reality that eventually became the Cicatrix and would sooner see the galaxy burn than let themselves be endangered? A galaxy is a huge place so it takes a while for things to make others extinct, it doesnt mean they are less of a threat for it. Eldars travel around their own special non-space in planet-sized space ships precisely because the common space is too dangerous for their continued survival.

However, those threats are threats that arose ~10,000 years after the Emperor died and the Imperium took shape, and they're threats that look like they're coming regardless of whether or not the Imperium gets in the way. They're largely decoupled from the story of how the Imperium got to be the way it is.

You mean Necrons like the one the Emperor buried in Mars that shaped humanity's technology and became the basis for the AdMech cult? Geez, that surely sounds decoupled from how the Imperium got to be the way it is.

The Imperium's story is about what happens when humanity takes its worst tendencies into space instead of its best. The Emperor's project is very clearly modelled on 19th- and 20th-century dictators, and that's not just expressed literally, but also very clearly telegraphed through the choice of language and aesthetics of the Imperium. Fans taking it as "ah yes, the future is a boot stepping on a human face forever, but actually that's for the best" make me super uncomfortable with my fellow travellers in the hobby.

Thats your damage though. As for whats in-universe, the Emperor likely was one or a few of those dictators. He has been around for a long, long time; he has probably tried the peace and love when he was a mystic lurking behind mankind. He has witnessed humans boil away their own oceans and build the very machines that would threaten to make extinct. You forget that 40k is beyond the thunderdome, mankind has already been through mad max, fallout, the terminator and all other post-apocalyptic scenarios. Every other aproach has ended in failure, because even the hopeful star-trek like peak of human technology ended in warpstorms and daemon incursions. So the Imperium is what comes after, and since its stuck for 10000 years, seem to be the best idea so far, not by default, but by virtue of all other ideas having already been tried and ending in failure.

[Amechra]

I think that the fundamental issue behind the Imperium is that it doesn't and shouldn't make sense.

Settings for fantasy wargames have some very specific requirements:

1) Every faction needs to be able to fight every other faction. The easiest way to do this is to make everyone jerks.
2) You need to have things in it that look awesome as minis.

40K has both of those things in spades. And when you're making a wargame, having everyone be power-metal brutal all the time is OK - you want a setting where "Group X goes to war with Group Y" is just another Tuesday.

If you sit down and try to write a novel (or design a roleplaying game), you suddenly have to ask questions like "so, what's civilian life like?" and "how can Our Heroes justify serving such a transparently Evil Empire?", which aren't easy questions to answer by any stretch of the imagination. And that's how you find yourself writing Fascist apologia.

---

But in-setting, the Imperium would be a much better place if the Emperor had made Chaos public knowledge, publicized the warning signs, and set up a really good training/research program for Psykers. Oh, and maybe universal healthcare? Catch those cases of the Nerglish Rot before they start metastasizing into cults. Seriously, they're doing the worst job of handling Chaos.

[LCP]

I think the difference here is that you seem to be viewing the fiction as a list of 'facts' about the fictional world it's describing, while I view those 'facts' as choices made by their writers to communicate something to readers in the real world. Based on that difference I doubt our opinions are going to converge - to me these lists of how scary things in 40K are are as weird and circular as e.g. Marvel fans making a big deal of how hard the Hulk can punch.

[LansXero]

I think the difference here is that you seem to be viewing the fiction as a list of 'facts' about the fictional world it's describing, while I view those 'facts' as choices made by their writers to communicate something to readers in the real world. Based on that difference I doubt our opinions are going to converge - to me these lists of how scary things in 40K are are as weird and circular as e.g. Marvel fans making a big deal of how hard the Hulk can punch.

huh? so 'planet X got eaten and is now a rock' is supposed to be an allegory for 21st century politics instead of an account of how that planet is now a rock because it was eaten?

But in-setting, the Imperium would be a much better place if the Emperor had made Chaos public knowledge, publicized the warning signs, and set up a really good training/research program for Psykers. Oh, and maybe universal healthcare? Catch those cases of the Nerglish Rot before they start metastasizing into cults. Seriously, they're doing the worst job of handling Chaos.

Well, something not as pervasive and individually dangerous like Nuclear Power already resulted in humanity almost killing themselves, so there isnt a great track record for the wonders of public control and education. There is a clear timeline of how the setting is the result of humans meddling with things and said things blowing up in their face until the Emperor decides to step from the background and assume direct control.

[LCP]

huh? so 'planet X got eaten and is now a rock' is supposed to be an allegory for 21st century politics instead of an account of how that planet is now a rock because it was eaten?

Right, stories have meaning. Who'd have thought.

In this specific case I'm talking about how portrayals of a grim fascist dystopia might possibly have a political element... but sure, to move with the change of topic, you don't think that portraying unsustainable consumption and environmental destruction with overtones of apocalyptic cosmic horror has anything that particularly resonates with the real world?

Well, something not as pervasive and individually dangerous like Nuclear Power already resulted in humanity almost killing themselves, so there isnt a great track record for the wonders of public control and education. There is a clear timeline of how the setting is the result of humans meddling with things and said things blowing up in their face until the Emperor decides to step from the background and assume direct control.

Right, democracy is weak and we need a strong, ruthless ubermensch to take the reins through military force. Glad to hear that's the message.

[LeSwordfish]

an account of how that planet is now a rock because it was eaten?

The use of the word "account" here is a wierd one because... the word missing there is "fictional", right? It's not real. (You do know that, right?) I've tried several times now to frame a way of saying "it's not real and you shouldn't try and use it as evidence for a worldview" that doesnt sound so pithy but I can't come up with one. "We need strong leaders or we'll all be eaten by space bugs" is madness.

[LCP]

That's completely fair, and I wouldn't ever say that Warhammer is expressing anything particularly coherent or deep in its fiction... I just think it's a question of whether you want to interpret said fiction as kind of escapist fascist fan-fic of a universe where militaristic fascism is actually 100% justified thank you, or whether you interpret said fascists as actually still being subjects of criticism in the way they're written.

I feel like there's a strong cargo-cult tendency to unthinkingly lean towards the former (even in official GW writing) by sticking the 'designated good guy' sticker on the Imperium, simply because they're human - but the cues for the latter are worked into the setting at the foundations, and that's the natural interpretation that doesn't require you to flirt with apologia for really repugnant ideologies.

[LansXero]

Where is the apology in depicting the Imperium as the crapsack rotten barely-sustaining mess that it is. Within the universe it might make sense, mostly due to the Emperor being this huge unexplainable plot device, but nothing about how its portrated seems desireable. That heroes rise despite, not because, of the amoral nature of the Imperium is more a tribute to the goodness in humans that even the worse of cruelty and abuse cant crush, than a justification to what the Imperium becomes in the 40th millenium.

[LCP]

Where is the apology in depicting the Imperium as the crapsack rotten barely-sustaining mess that it is.

This is where:

Within the universe it might make sense, mostly due to the Emperor being this huge unexplainable plot device

Alternative: it doesn't make sense, because it's motivated by supremacist, imperialist ideology, not by some ironclad chain of logic that makes it the Only Way. Then you don't need an 'unexplainable plot device', and you're not engaging in an exercise of imagining a world where fascism and genocide are Actually Necessary. Because... why would you do that, if not to feel good about stepping into the boots of an imaginary fascist?

[LansXero]

Alternative: it doesn't make sense, because it's motivated by supremacist, imperialist ideology, not by some ironclad chain of logic that makes it the Only Way. Then you don't need an 'unexplainable plot device', and you're not engaging in an exercise of imagining a world where fascism and genocide are Actually Necessary. Because... why would you do that, if not to feel good about stepping into the boots of an imaginary fascist?

The setting is what it is, and in it that plot device exists, not as an in-universe rumour but as an in-universe known quantity. Under the logic of the setting genocide, restriction of freedoms and such are not really 'necessary' but the most expeditive and comfortable way that doesnt get in the way of killing each other. The setting punishes mercy really harshly (like the Salamanders in Pythos) and in the setting Hope is evil.

To derive any real world parallel from there is just loaded political agenda colored by the views of the reader; since said views are subjective any discussion regarding it is irrelevant. Its not that "I cant tell its not real"; its that we can only objectively agree on what books and other media say is canon; anything else is fanfic and speculation and if someone wants to feel its a valid take thats on them but doesnt necesarily translate for anyone else.

[LCP]

The setting is what it is

I refer back you to LeSwordfish's post. The setting is a work of fiction; it "is" what it's portrayed and interpreted as being, not some externally verifiable fact. If you think you're not putting an interpretation on published material by making statements like "the Emperor only did what was necessary" or "hope is evil" then I respectfully disagree.

Anyway, I think I've said what I have to say.

[Cikomyr2]

The setting is what it is, and in it that plot device exists, not as an in-universe rumour but as an in-universe known quantity. Under the logic of the setting genocide, restriction of freedoms and such are not really 'necessary' but the most expeditive and comfortable way that doesnt get in the way of killing each other. The setting punishes mercy really harshly (like the Salamanders in Pythos) and in the setting Hope is evil.

To derive any real world parallel from there is just loaded political agenda colored by the views of the reader; since said views are subjective any discussion regarding it is irrelevant. Its not that "I cant tell its not real"; its that we can only objectively agree on what books and other media say is canon; anything else is fanfic and speculation and if someone wants to feel its a valid take thats on them but doesnt necesarily translate for anyone else.

Well.. Okay, I mean, I 100% get what you are saying. But the other side of that specific argument is "can art really be taken removed of real-world context?"

I mean, Warhammer 40K is conceived from the PoV of the Western Middle/Upper-class cisgenred man who could afford the miniatures.

[Lord Raziere]

But in-setting, the Imperium would be a much better place if the Emperor had made Chaos public knowledge, publicized the warning signs, and set up a really good training/research program for Psykers. Oh, and maybe universal healthcare? Catch those cases of the Nerglish Rot before they start metastasizing into cults. Seriously, they're doing the worst job of handling Chaos.

Yeah, 10,000 years to handle the threats around it is a really bad success rate. in fact its pretty much total failure on the Imperium's part. if its methods worked, their enemies would actually be dead, instead of still alive and threatening them all. its not as if the Ork's weakness to fire -y'know, the simplest invention of mankind- is all that hard to use, heck they can't kill the Eldar and they are on the verge of extinction. if all these oppressive measures really were necessary, they'd have solved the problems long ago and the Imperium would just be a relatively peaceful oppressive empire forever with no enemies other than unpersoning anyone who tries to start Chaos up again.

[LansXero]

Yeah, 10,000 years to handle the threats around it is a really bad success rate. in fact its pretty much total failure on the Imperium's part. if its methods worked, their enemies would actually be dead, instead of still alive and threatening them all.

According to the setting's canon (because apparently some people need a disclaimer when referencing source material or they begin to assume one thinks warhammer is real) most of the enemies at the time of the Great Crusade were routed and in the verge of collapse, until the Heresy threw a hard reset on things. Yes, the current Imperium IS a failure in-universe; its the Emperor's failed dream, pieced together by people who only ever knew parts of it and kept in constant risk of coming apart. However, the 30k Imperium with the Emperor and the Primarchs at the front was doing exactly what you say, according to fictional yet canon sources for this imaginary setting

its not as if the Ork's weakness to fire -y'know, the simplest invention of mankind- is all that hard to use, heck they can't kill the Eldar and they are on the verge of extinction.

The Eldars survive because their enemies can't access the webways and as such they can't give chase / keep up with them. Also by throwing lesser races to the fire based on visions by their farseers. Imaginary Orks arent really that weak to fire, its just that according to in-universe sources that are considered canon they release spores upon death so burning the corpses and the ground where they fought is necessary to keep them from simply regrowing in a few years, and even then they still do. Also, the more Orks there are together the more advanced they get, and they've moved forward in technology and organization quite a bit by the time of the most recent fictional publication about this totally imaginary setting



As you can see, their presence is widespread and thats even with a population in constant war footing AND their recurring clashes with the other factions in the setting.

if all these oppressive measures really were necessary, they'd have solved the problems long ago and the Imperium would just be a relatively peaceful oppressive empire forever with no enemies other than unpersoning anyone who tries to start Chaos up again.

If you need an in-universe example of fascist measures enabling progress look no further than the Tau. Everything they achieved is on the back of caste systems, thought police, chemical control of client alien races and splitting their population into rigidly regimented behaviours. This imaginary and fictional race, according to the setting's narrative has achieved results that outpace those of mankind and other races, but since they arent willing to go to the Imperium's extreme, they remain a tiny isolated speck in a corner of the galaxy, waiting for the next waagh or hive fleet to wipe them out.

[Amechra]

The fun thing... all of the "bad" stuff about the Tau? Like how the Ethereals are literally mind controlling them?

That wasn't part of the original description of the Tau. They added that later on, when they decided that no one was allowed to be a good guy in 40k.

[Cikomyr2]

The fun thing... all of the "bad" stuff about the Tau? Like how the Ethereals are literally mind controlling them?

That wasn't part of the original description of the Tau. They added that later on, when they decided that no one was allowed to be a good guy in 40k.

I think there was such massive overcorrection with the Tau because they are coded exactly like all the sci fi "young empire/federation" so common in literature, and I guess our brain is used to root for the little guy?

[Amechra]

I think there was such massive overcorrection with the Tau because they are coded exactly like all the sci fi "young empire/federation" so common in literature, and I guess our brain is used to root for the little guy?

I think you're right, honestly.

[Forum Explorer]

That's kind of my point - Chaos doesn't need to be completely unified, it just needs to be big enough. Those three example empires don't have to be working together, if all 3 of them throw themselves at you one after another and make the Gods happier and more powerful with each others' deaths.

You're absolutely right, it's not guaranteed, but the Emperor's idea of having a hugely powerful empire rather than several smaller, scattered ones at least gives humanity a position of power from which to deal with such things.



Another paradox, I think. In the Horus Heresy novels we see something like ~40 planets in person and are told about roughly the same again by people talking about old campaigns, but the Imperium at its peak is comprised of about a million worlds (according to the propaganda, anyway). Saying that "most planets we see are stable" doesn't really give us a decent picture of just how violent the crusade could be on average.

SImilarly, most people in the 41st millenium have never seen a psyker and the vast majority of worlds have never plunged into psychic armageddon; maybe that's BECAUSE the Imperium has spent 10,000 years cracking down on them and feeding them to the Emperor's soul machine? One of the main themes about the Imperium is that as crap-sack and disfunctional as it is, it seems to be more-or-less working and no one has yet come up with a better idea!



One of the best things 40k ever did was codify what it means to be grimdark and to run with it proudly and gloriously. One of the worst thing it ever did, was fail to move on to anything else and let it just get more and more ridiculous over time

Sure, except they are just as likely to throw their armies at each other. Maybe even more likely, since Chaos is all about sticking a finger in their rival's eye. Chaos is inherently self-defeating.

I'm not saying the Emperor's idea of unifying humanity was a bad one. I'm saying Space Marines were a bad idea, and it would've been much better to unify humanity using ordinary humans, even if that meant some human empires would end up facing off against Chaos by themselves until he could catch up to them, because than he couldn't inadvertently empower Chaos by giving it immortal(ish) champions who only desire war and conflict.


Well on average, most planets taken would be controlled by Orks. So whatever humans that lived on those planets would be living miserable lives as slaves (or frantic lives as free humans in a weird gurellia warfare). An extremely unpleasant status quo to be sure, but not a critical one.

Not really, or else the planets that end up being retaken (or forgotten about) after being lost for thousands of years should have noticeably higher numbers of psykers, and I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

Would this be the green aliens that have multi-planet wars amongst themselves for fun? Or the metallic alliens that did exterminate most life in the galaxy then went to sleep? Or the chitinous aliens who are currently bent on turning everyone else into biomass? Or the long eared aliens that muder****ed a chaos god into existance, tore a hole in reality that eventually became the Cicatrix and would sooner see the galaxy burn than let themselves be endangered? A galaxy is a huge place so it takes a while for things to make others extinct, it doesnt mean they are less of a threat for it. Eldars travel around their own special non-space in planet-sized space ships precisely because the common space is too dangerous for their continued survival.

How much did the Necrons kill before going to sleep? Since the fluff changed, I don't think they actually killed much after the War in Heaven. They were too busy betraying the C'tan, and than going into hiding from the Eldar.

Also there are lots of Eldar that live on planets. They are the Exodites.

Yeah, 10,000 years to handle the threats around it is a really bad success rate. in fact its pretty much total failure on the Imperium's part. if its methods worked, their enemies would actually be dead, instead of still alive and threatening them all. its not as if the Ork's weakness to fire -y'know, the simplest invention of mankind- is all that hard to use, heck they can't kill the Eldar and they are on the verge of extinction. if all these oppressive measures really were necessary, they'd have solved the problems long ago and the Imperium would just be a relatively peaceful oppressive empire forever with no enemies other than unpersoning anyone who tries to start Chaos up again.

Mind you, burning Orks before they release spores is harder than it sounds. First you need to actually win the battle. Second, you need to win strongly enough that you have enough fuel and time to set all the Orks on fire. Than you have to win quick enough that they won't have release the spores before you can even get the fires started.

So yeah, if you win against Orks, and than have to pursue the retreating survivors so they don't regroup? By the time you come back, it's likely already too late to burn the Ork corpses.

The bolded line made me laugh though.

[Lord Raziere]

oh so, all that oppression is okay just because the Emperor did his failure better? look he is still the guy who burned the last church for no reason other than that he hated religion. the Chaos Gods had nothing to do with that. and a near success is a still a failure, Emps still caused his downfall through being a bad parent who had like what, centuries of crusading to catch up with his sons? but canon sources he says he thinks of them as tools for his vision nothing more.

like, just because the progress bar on the emp's attempt was 90% rather than 40%, doesn't mean he is a better person or that he wouldn't face problems himself. realistically a canon Emperor is something akin to an atheistic sociopath who I'm pretty sure if he ever got the chance to realize his vision without the Chaos Gods and aliens screwing it up would, would make things miserable without them needing to interfere. his Imperium would still a bunch of jerkbags killing people for believing in anything at all.

like best case scenario for the Imperium if the Emperor won, eliminated all foes, established the webway and everything, is that the imperium would still be a bureaucratic and logistical nightmare no matter how peaceful it is, his genius can't compensate for an entire galaxy of people living on countless world isolated from one another, and thus face similar problems as the imperium with enforcing doctrine. a centralized empire like the Imperium even at its height simply can't function due to the vast distances of space and the sheer scale it operates on. religions would sprout up anyways simply out of sheer vastness and inevitability. the Emperor would send his Imperial Guard to kill them for daring to believe at all. he would discard anyone not suited to his vision without a second thought, including his own super-soldiers like he did with the Thunder Warriors. it would still be a shining golden monument of overly-designed cathedrals and skulls to a singular jerk's desire to force his vision on everyone, and those don't get built on the backs of happy well-paid citizens with rights. corruption and crime would set in anyways because its simply the entropic nature of such systems to devolve into mediocrity. it might look a little cleaner but the Emperor's ideal Imperium I honestly don't think would be much better than the current one- sure it would be a bit more Tau-like but.....thats not much of a step up with current Tau.

like sure no one would be shouting heresy, or randomly burning or blamming people out of trigger happy paranoia, or being sent off to fight against terrifying aliens and demons, but it would still be a system where countless numbers of people would be working in drudgery for the sake of one guy's vision of them which isn't all that clear aside from killing anyone who disagrees with him or defies his rule, because nothing gave him the right to go across the galaxy to start conquering people in the first place, he decided that before the Chaos Gods started meddling with him. even if his sons (read: super soldier tools) got kidnapped in the first place, that doesn't exactly give him the right to conquer people just because they aren't under his rule. no one asked the Emperor to become a conqueror and brutally make everyone follow his command. nor does anything indicate that he needed to do it this way, he just seemed to assume that was the only way to do it, and given that he is like, a 50,000 year old entity whose morality formed at the dawn of human civilization, one can view him as the ultimate old guy trying to make his relatives follow his outdated way of doing things: might makes right. in that light, all his golden cathedrals and anachronisms make sense as his mindset is literally that of one of the oldest humans to exist and thus all the nostalgia and outdated thinking that goes along with it. I would not be surprised if the Emperor has fond memories of living in Rome or other old empires and thinks that what everyone should go back to, or at least his own weird version of them. he is someone who has seen all of human history- and that isn't a good thing because he is so far removed from a normal humans experiences and is full of old ideas in his head that might've served him well in the past but might not always.

The Emperor's an old dog, and he cannot be taught new tricks. his mindset is that of a dawn of humanity era might-makes-right conqueror who somehow acquired a hate for religion and probably was lost in nostalgia for the medieval ages when designing his buildings, weaponry and armor. As TTS Uriah Olathaire once pointed out, he uses an awful lot of religious iconography, methods and terms for someone who hates religion even before the Imperial cult started twisting his vision beyond recognition.

so no, none of this is needed, The Emperor is just a hyper-powerful neolithic strongman who picked up a medieval sense of aesthetics and a freshman understanding of atheism while he emulates all his favorite conquerors from antiquity, including dying early into his reign.

[Voidhawk]

You guys are looking at the (fictional depiction of) the Imperium all backwards.

As others have said, since 40k is a wargame the central goal the writers have when putting together the setting is to create world where:
1) everyone is fighting all the time forever, and
2) everything is Metalocalypse levels of BRÜTAL.

This would be, by definition, a terrible place to live. Even if you were not currently dying in pain, who wants spikes and skulls on everything? God knows what the bathrooms are like.

The Imperium was created as part of a particular thought experiment: "What horrible circumstances would make genocidal religious facism the least-bad path?". And the answer it leads us toward is "Literally all other paths mean every soul being tortured eternally by daemons, and also God was an idiot with no social skills". That's not apologia, that's a condemnation in the harshest terms. The only circumstances that meet the experiment's criteria is the worst of all possible worlds!

And so, whenever you think up a path out of that situation the path must immediately be closed. Because this thought experiment isn't about considering how to create a better society in a fixed setting, it's about considering how utterly twisted and evil a setting must be that "genocidal religious facism" is the best society a human can hope to be part of.

Anytime someone comes up with a new way the Imperium could do things better: Congratulations! You have found another idea which is preferable to genocidal religious facism! Lets add it to the list, eg: all the other ideas humans have ever come up with. But you must now ask yourself: how must the setting be altered such that this path is/was unavailable to the Imperium?

This is why the Tau got retconned: because if they were managing to survive while not being as evil as the Imperium, then there's a better path available. And that's not what the setting is about. So they get remade into a different flavour of evil instead.

It's also why the only other human cultures that the setting permits to survive are Cults, either Chaos or Genestealer. Because blind worship of primodial deities that want to consume you is, so far, the only thing the experiment has discovered that is worse than the Imperium.

[Destro_Yersul]

Well.. Okay, I mean, I 100% get what you are saying. But the other side of that specific argument is "can art really be taken removed of real-world context?"

I mean, Warhammer 40K is conceived from the PoV of the Western Middle/Upper-class cisgenred man who could afford the miniatures.

It's more accurate to say that 40k is concieved out of British comedic sensibilities and Absurdism.

The Imperium was created as part of a particular thought experiment: "What horrible circumstances would make genocidal religious facism the least-bad path?". And the answer it leads us toward is "Literally all other paths mean every soul being tortured eternally by daemons, and also God was an idiot with no social skills". That's not apologia, that's a condemnation in the harshest terms. The only circumstances that meet the experiment's criteria is the worst of all possible worlds!

And so, whenever you think up a path out of that situation the path must immediately be closed. Because this thought experiment isn't about considering how to create a better society in a fixed setting, it's about considering how utterly twisted and evil a setting must be that "genocidal religious facism" is the best society a human can hope to be part of.

Anytime someone comes up with a new way the Imperium could do things better: Congratulations! You have found another idea which is preferable to genocidal religious facism! Lets add it to the list, eg: all the other ideas humans have ever come up with. But you must now ask yourself: how must the setting be altered such that this path is/was unavailable to the Imperium?

This is why the Tau got retconned: because if they were managing to survive while not being as evil as the Imperium, then there's a better path available. And that's not what the setting is about. So they get remade into a different flavour of evil instead.

It's also why the only other human cultures that the setting permits to survive are Cults, either Chaos or Genestealer. Because blind worship of primodial deities that want to consume you is, so far, the only thing the experiment has discovered that is worse than the Imperium.

Hence this, which is a pretty good take as far as I'm concerned. The point is not to claim that the Imperium is a good place that we should want to live in. The point is creating a setting so terrible that the Imperium, of all things, is somehow the 'good guys.' Despite everything.

[Thragka]

For whom is the Imperium "best" and "good", though? There's no sense in which it can be considered the strictly best possible option for the class of underhivers and abhumans it violently exploits, and without whom it would collapse. That's as canon as the external threats of the setting. Even if it were an interesting idea, as a thought experiment, to try to justify a setting where fascism is the solution (which, as LCP says, why would you get your kicks out of doing this?), that doesn't address the issue that even as presented, the Imperium is not a good thing for the average human in the setting – it's the greatest evil they are ever likely to know. Teeming trillions of human lives would be better if the project failed, regardless of the external threats; the utilitarian argument simply doesn't work.

[Lord Raziere]

For whom is the Imperium "best" and "good", though? There's no sense in which it can be considered the strictly best possible option for the class of underhivers and abhumans it violently exploits, and without whom it would collapse. That's as canon as the external threats of the setting. Even if it were an interesting idea, as a thought experiment, to try to justify a setting where fascism is the solution (which, as LCP says, why would you get your kicks out of doing this?), that doesn't address the issue that even as presented, the Imperium is not a good thing for the average human in the setting – it's the greatest evil they are ever likely to know. Teeming trillions of human lives would be better if the project failed, regardless of the external threats; the utilitarian argument simply doesn't work.

Indeed, and to justify Imperial propaganda, one needs to buy into the Chaos God's propaganda that they are fed by everything and everyone's actions, thus necessitating the Imperials needing to control all thought to stop them. when its shown that not all people within the Imperium who don't follow things fanatically are under Chaos's influence- in fact the people that seem most likely to fall to Chaos are the ones who are the most fanatical:
-space marines somehow half turned to chaos marines the fastest, despite being some of the most indoctrinated people
-half the Inquisitors are radicals with crazy plans to change the system involving wars, daemons or alien technology on par with Chaos cultist obsessions
-tech priests seem the most likely to turn heretek out of everyone.
-Lorgar was the one who started the Imperial cult in the first place, so he worshipped the Emperor before Chaos
-the Sisters of Battle have a history of frequently being depicted as either losing or falling into chaos
-the fanatics who seek out Chaos to burn and kill are also the ones most likely to encounter the kinds of things that makes one fall to Chaos and be the targets for temptation. For example: what is the difference between a Imperium fanatic psychotically trying to kill everyone and a Khornate fanatic trying to psychotically kill everyone? they're both enraged and attacking impulsively, they're just shouting different battlecries.

indeed, for someone who is predisposed to fanaticism, I doubt it matters what they are fanatical about. what matters is that they find an idea that they can define their entire life by and obsess over to fulfill a desire for simplicity or certainty in their lives. when one idea proves wrong, they don't think to not be fanatical, they find a new form of fanaticism that fits their new worldview. and WH40k, the options are scarce and dire. any fanatic that loses faith in the emperor? instantly goes Chaos, because having an idea that they can be fanatical about to define them is more important to them than their loyalty to some distant name. you could say the entire Imperial Cult is a Chaos god trap designed to make the fanatics think that as long as ones keep the Emperor's faith as zealously as they can that they will eventually win, but as you fight the chaos gods show you how "hopeless" it is over and over again until it wears down upon your fanaticism until they finally break and go heretic, while causing oppression that fuels chaos and strife so that more people rebel against the Imperium in vicious cycle gradual grind that eternally powers the Chaos Gods with new worshipers cut from the same fanatical cloth as them, surely Nurgle is proud of such cyclical decay.
supported by the fact that fanatics are probably more likely to cause chaos and think emotional extreme thoughts the Chaos Gods love rather than someone reasonable and down to earth. this would explain a lot of things about the Imperium's mindset and why its utilitarian ethos isn't working- because it was never meant to. you don't create order and stability by constantly blowing up planets and burning people randomly out of paranoia.

[snowblizz]

-space marines somehow half turned to chaos marines the fastest, despite being some of the most indoctrinated people

Well that's not really true. The original Space Marines were more what we would consider fee thinkers really. The super indoctrination comes later, as part of an attempt to not let what just happened happen again.

Also, keep in mind, not all in the old Legions willingly went over, Isstvaan was needed to effectively gut the Legions of loyalists. At a push I'd say each Legion had roughly a third converts, a third who just went along with their boss and were damned by proxy, and a third that remained loyal to the Emperor over Primarch (which was probably the big question for the "undecided" third).

YMMV per Legion, so Word Bearers clearly had a much higher percentage of "converts", am not that current on HH lore to say which would have had less.

Nowhere near half of Space Marines "just went Chaos". It was a complex process where the majority doesn't really seem to have known what exactly they were doing until it was rather too late.

[Cheesegear]

Indeed, and to justify Imperial propaganda, one needs to buy into the Chaos God's propaganda that they are fed by everything and everyone's actions, thus necessitating the Imperials needing to control all thought to stop them. when its shown that not all people within the Imperium who don't follow things fanatically are under Chaos's influence- in fact the people that seem most likely to fall to Chaos are the ones who are the most fanatical...

That's because, for one way or another, the Imperium lets those people down.
The System that they believed in, so strongly and so completely, failed them.

Being faithful to the Imperium is one thing. How long 'til that faith shatters? As a 'faithful' person, is there another, who will take your faith? Who will reward you?

When the system fails you, find a new system.

Lorgar was Faithful to the Emperor. The Emperor rejected his Faith. Lorgar took his Faith elsewhere. At no point, was Lorgar ever going to stop being a fanatic. All's he did was changed where his loyalties lay, because he dove into a 'System' that supported his idealogy.

So of course the most fanatical, are the most likely to Fall, because they have the most Faith to lose.