OOTS #1174 - The Discussion Thread

[The MunchKING]

Yes, it states direct sunlight.

So all a vampire really needs is a parasol. Would sunblock work?

It did for Marceline the Vampire Queen.

[Rogan]

Nice spotting checks from those who noticed the protection going down last strip.

Oh, by the way:

2) narrative reason: this book has a focus on Durkon and his family. I don't think the rest of the order will solve everything while he is stoned.

I'll offer five quataloos on a bet supporting this take. I like your take on that, not sure what Rich is going to do with it.

Should have agreed to this offer... Oh well, no quataloos for me.

Question: Is the orange barrier down as well as the law runes? We don't know it yet, do we?

[Anarion]

Dwarven family saving the day once the bad moment was stopped. Very cool. I wonder if they'll even manage another council vote after this if Elan casts a bunch of mending on the table!

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Archimedes. Aristotle was the guy who said houseflies had four legs.

It's a bit different than that.

All creatures that are capable of motion move with four or more points of motion; the blooded animals with four only: as, for instance, man with two hands and two feet, birds with two wings and two feet, quadrupeds and fishes severally with four feet and four fins. Creatures that have two winglets or fins, or that have none at all like serpents, move all the same with not less than four points of motion; for there are four bends in their bodies as they move, or two bends together with their fins. Bloodless and many footed animals, whether furnished with wings or feet, move with more than four points of motion; as, for instance, the dayfly moves with four feet and four wings: and, I may observe in passing, this creature is exceptional not only in regard to the duration of its existence, whence it receives its name, but also because though a quadruped it has wings also.

All animals move alike, four-footed and many-footed; in other words, they all move cross-corner-wise. And animals in general have two feet in advance; the crab alone has four.

The fly that he is talking about here is probably a mayfly, given that he calls its lifespan "exceptional". There are species of mayfly which use only four of their legs for walking (the other two are used to grasp one another while mating). In this work, Aristotle only counts limbs as legs if they are used for movement (the human arms are used for moving when crawling, climbing, etc). So, he's not wrong to say that the "dayfly" has four points of motion as it walks, if the "dayfly" is a certain species of mayfly.

Aristotle still got many things wrong, but I don't count this as one of them.

[GregTD]

So there's now two vampires left, one who's stuck at the Godsmoot and one who fled the council meeting before they could get thrown into the sunlight (there might be others but they're the only ones who have been shown to survive so far).

What happened to Ponchoella?

[Aetius]

He’s blind, he’d be a liability running in. He’s probably sitting out of the way until Durkon can cure him.

Sitting out the final battle for the fate of the world and dwarvenkind? Missing the possibly last chance to die with honor - because it would be risky?

Doesn't sound much like the Logann I know.
Or like a proper dwarf, for that matter.

Sure - you could argue since he might be a liability to others participating in the fight he would be sacrificing his chance to die with honor for the greater good. But that sounds like something Thor would argue after the fact - not something Logann would consider. Being blind didn't stop him swinging before. And even if he had to be careful and refrain from leading the charge - not going in at all seems weird to me.

[Schroeswald]

What happened to Ponchoella?

Belkar cut off her head right before Durkon** (I meant both asterisks) committed suicide by halfling.

[Fyraltari]

Sitting out the final battle for the fate of the world and dwarvenkind? Missing the possibly last chance to die with honor - because it would be risky?

Doesn't sound much like the Logann I know.
Or like a proper dwarf, for that matter.

Sure - you could argue since he might be a liability to others participating in the fight he would be sacrificing his chance to die with honor for the greater good. But that sounds like something Thor would argue after the fact - not something Logann would consider. Being blind didn't stop him swinging before. And even if he had to be careful and refrain from leading the charge - not going in at all seems weird to me.

At best he'd need domeone to guide him to the ennemy , which would just make the two of them useless, and at worst he'd pick out a cousin's eye with his axe. He ismply isn't needed or able to change the outcome of this "battle" (a dozen people against two is barely a battle anyway) and he's already cost Durkon a "cure critical wounds" by acting recklessly once.

[klarg1]

Poor Gontor. His last words will haunt me.

"Perhaps when the moot has concluded we could - Excuse me? What does-"

[GregTD]

No. Just no. The fact that none of the rather limited number of people in that room cast the spell as an instantaneous reaction in order to keep the vote from being tabled (hehe) doesn't mean "it's been erased from existence". The spell exists, and quite possibly can fix the table. Right after they clear out that boulder, which I'm sure people will get right on.

Ding!

Sigdi immediately sucked Gontor* into a fight. Even if he had Make Whole prepared, even if he was high enough level to be able to repair the table, and even if a repaired table would meet the requirements, he still needed the time to cast it.

Which Sigdi didn't let him get.

Also, they had most of the night and morning to contact them and get the family there, I'd hardly call that a moment's notice (though this is the point that has the most merit behind it).

Very little. They started assembling the family the moment that Durkon came back as a vampire. To rally around his mother in her time of sorrow, if for no other reason.

I mean, seriously. Your lands have been invaded by vampires who are engaging in wanton murder. heck yes any and all high level characters are going to assemble!

Vampires also have coffins they have to retreat to. These are coffin-less vampires, so they're already under special rules. This is clearly an extension of those special rules. Not to mention that the comic follows D&D rules until it doesn't, which has been a thing for a long time now.

In this case, it's following the "rule of funny". A vampire that's be lowered to 0 HP has to retreat to his coffin or else die. None of these dwarves have had a chance to set up coffins, so 0 HP == death.

Minrah throwing the vampire into the light is more funny, and easier for readers to understand, than him misting and dying.

[Riftwolf]

Poor Gontor*. He thought he was the rulemaster, and couldn't comprehend it when it turned out he got outsmarted.

As for him losing grapples; I'm guessing as an elderly, non-adventuring, unbuffed cleric, his Strength+BAB weren't great before vampirism, and now he's just OK in melee. And these dwarves are well versed in the lesser-used 'aid another' action.
Why didn't he mist? He probably thought he could break free and drain a few, because everything was predestined, preordained, planned and proceeding; its not like *he* could be stopped by *them* after all...

I'm also wondering if there's a spell/ability that allows you to stun undead (or an approximation of stunning, just like turning is an approximation for fear effects) which Minrah could've bust out. Not that it matters, but rules geekery is fun! (or an approximation of it, at least...)

[Peelee]

In this case, it's following the "rule of funny". A vampire that's be lowered to 0 HP has to retreat to his coffin or else die. None of these dwarves have had a chance to set up coffins, so 0 HP == death.

Minrah throwing the vampire into the light is more funny, and easier for readers to understand, than him misting and dying.

A.) All that's written is they have 3 hours to get to their coffins. That they didn't have a chance to set up their coffins shouldn't affect that they have 3 more hours before they die, I'd argue.
2.) Staking Durkon's vampire killed him outright when it should have required more than just that, so we already know vampire death is functioning different than core rules to begin with.

[Worldsong]

Sitting out the final battle for the fate of the world and dwarvenkind? Missing the possibly last chance to die with honor - because it would be risky?

Doesn't sound much like the Logann I know.
Or like a proper dwarf, for that matter.

Sure - you could argue since he might be a liability to others participating in the fight he would be sacrificing his chance to die with honor for the greater good. But that sounds like something Thor would argue after the fact - not something Logann would consider. Being blind didn't stop him swinging before. And even if he had to be careful and refrain from leading the charge - not going in at all seems weird to me.

By entering the chamber blind he could get in the way of his family as they try to take care of the vampire, thus giving the Exarch precious seconds to either harm Sigdi or escape. By sitting outside instead of charging in he is risking his eternal soul for the sake of improving the odds of the world being saved. If staying outside gets him killed he'll have honourably sacrificed himself for the sake of his family and the world and will be treated as someone who died honourably.

Minrah throwing the vampire into the light is more funny, and easier for readers to understand, than him misting and dying.

It also reduces the amount of people forming theories about Sandy secretly being alive and doing something relevant to the plot. The vampire is tossed into the sunlight, the vampire is completely and utterly dead, there are no do-overs and their part in the story is officially over.

Meanwhile if the last we saw of Sandy was them misting away... "Sandy will join Xykon and enter a climactic fight with Durkon so our friendly dwarven cleric can't help Roy in the final battle with the epic lich! WE NEVER SAW THE BODY THEREFORE THEY MUST STILL HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY!!!111!1!!!"

A.) All that's written is they have 3 hours to get to their coffins. That they didn't have a chance to set up their coffins shouldn't affect that they have 3 more hours before they die, I'd argue.

I thought it was two hours. Also one could probably make up some mumbo jumbo that the only reason they get those two hours is because their coffin ties them to the material plane and without the coffin they just die instantly.

[Ruck]

I did like the Ex-Exarch's final words being about how this wasn't how this was supposed to happen, considering how insistent he's been that everything has its place and its role, and how angry he gets when things don't comply.

You have far more optimistic assessment of this forum's expected existance-span than I do.

I think you have to be an optimist, generally speaking, to expect to be immortalized in any form.

[Worldsong]

Also can I say that I love how Squeaky and his apprentice are essentially aggressively holding their lutes as they stare at the Exarch?

"Aggressive Lute-Holding". It's a skill.

[GregTD]

I think the most merit is behind the point about domination.

The vampires easily dominated all the guards and councilmembers and before that they dominated half of a high level adventuring party including a high level cleric.
But no domination is happening on anyone in Durkons family - even though they are swarming all over the place.

1: Domination is a standard action for a Vamp

2: The suffering girl wasn't dominated when here clan leader was. She was, instead, killed in battle. We have no idea how many guards the vamps killed, because the domination failed. For that matter, we have no idea how many guards were dominated only after several attempts

When the vampires outnumbered their opponents, everything went their way. When they were outnumbered, things became harder. They had to pick and chose, under time and information constraints.

No, the complaint has no validity

[Jasdoif]

A.) All that's written is they have 3 hours to get to their coffins. That they didn't have a chance to set up their coffins shouldn't affect that they have 3 more hours before they die, I'd argue.

Normally yes. However:

It seems clear to me that vampires reduced to 0 HP without a coffin instantly dust and Rich is just ignoring/retconning how Malack left items behind for the sake of not having the scene cluttered.

As for the beheading, I just assumed it to be an artistic representation of "doing a lot of damage."

This is almost all correct, except that it's not a retcon with Malack because Malack does have a coffin, it's just not within range. So he follows the normal vampire rules, while the vampires created by the quick-rise spell (i.e. all the others seen so far) are dead as soon as they hit 0 hp (like most undead). I'm treating it like it is the bond with the coffin that keeps them from dying the moment they hit 0 hp the way most other undead do, rather than an inherent property of their vampire body.

And yes, that's so I don't have to draw a whole bunch of empty armor/robes in every scene.

[Peelee]

Normally yes. However:

Nonono, you're doing it wrong. You're supposed to pull out quotes when I'm right, not when I'm wrong!

[Jasdoif]

Nonono, you're doing it wrong. You're supposed to pull out quotes when I'm right, not when I'm wrong!

Hey, you're not supposed to be wrong in the first place!

[GregTD]

A.) All that's written is they have 3 hours to get to their coffins. That they didn't have a chance to set up their coffins shouldn't affect that they have 3 more hours before they die, I'd argue.
2.) Staking Durkon's vampire killed him outright when it should have required more than just that, so we already know vampire death is functioning different than core rules to begin with.

If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Any additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest in its coffin, a vampire is helpless.

It can’t attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form. The subject also loses supernatural abilities while in gaseous form. If it has a touch spell ready to use, that spell is discharged harmlessly when the gaseous form spell takes effect.

A gaseous creature can’t manipulate objects or activate items, even those carried along with its gaseous form.


In short: It has two hours to get back to its coffin. Then it has to lay there, helpless, for an hour. Then it gets one HP, and then it starts healing normally.

A vamp w/o a coffin is dead once it hits 0 HP, and will never return. The Rule of Funny, and the Rule of dear God, please don't let the Forum fight over this, says "throw him in the sunlight so everyone knows he's dead."

[ackmondual]

Minrah has the best punchline, and it doesn't involve words.

"Time to take out the trash!"

[Fyraltari]

Very little. They started assembling the family the moment that Durkon came back as a vampire. To rally around his mother in her time of sorrow, if for no other reason.

I mean, seriously. Your lands have been invaded by vampires who are engaging in wanton murder. heck yes any and all high level characters are going to assemble!

How would they know about that before Roggo fetched Sigdi and she sent for the others? That was past midnight.

Normally yes. However:

Wait. Why is Gontor* leaving armor behind, then? Does that mean he secretely has a coffin?

[deuterio12]

I mean, seriously. Your lands have been invaded by vampires who are engaging in wanton murder. heck yes any and all high level characters are going to assemble!

And every last one of them are from Durkon's family. Not a single dwarf from another clan shows up to help besides Hylgia who's Durkon's ex-lover.

Meanwhile outside of Durkon's family the average dwarven competency conveniently drops like a rock as seen as they being able to easily overpower an elite army on the defensive.

I mean, seriously, the Durkon clan should be ruling over all of dwarfkind.

We have no idea how many guards the vamps killed, because the domination failed. For that matter, we have no idea how many guards were dominated only after several attempts

When the vampires outnumbered their opponents, everything went their way. When they were outnumbered, things became harder. They had to pick and chose, under time and information constraints.

They're vampires. Every dwarf they kill is another vampire. Every person they dominate is another number to their ranks. They can perfectly do both and did to cut a path of death accross the dwarven lands, except Durkon's family is both conveniently immune and drastically stronger than any other dwarf.

Nevermind Thor's complicated plan, just sic Durkon's clan at the Snarl and they'll rip the eldritch abomination to pieces in a a couple rounds.

[Fyraltari]

And every last one of them are from Durkon's family. Not a single dwarf from another clan shows up to help besides Hylgia who's Durkon's ex-lover.

Yes actually, Pretty sure Logann's squad, Tinna, Roggo and Minrah have no relations to the Thundershields.

Meanwhile outside of Durkon's family the average dwarven competency conveniently drops like a rock as seen as they being able to easily overpower an elite army on the defensive.

A dozen guys in ornate armor guarding a meeting nobody expects to matter does not qualify as "an elite army ont eh defense", nor does a bunch of priest expecting yet another quiet night of skygazing and being ambushed.
Also High Priestess Rubyrock did pretty good and she's no Thundershield either.
Wait, did Brewmaster Blackore join the fight too?

I mean, seriously, the Durkon clan should be ruling over all of dwarfkind.

Yeah, the rule of law is for wimps! All that matters is who is best at meeting unclear and arbitrary requirement for competency

They're vampires. Every dwarf they kill is another vampire.

No, they're not, they need to kill by level draining and drinking blood and wait three days unless they use a spell and therefore to have had sacrificed a slot for that.

Every person they dominate is another number to their ranks. They can perfectly do both and did to cut a path of death accross the dwarven lands, except Durkon's family is both conveniently immune and drastically stronger than any other dwarf.

No they can't because when they spend a round trying to Dominate one person there are two more hitting them with weapons. Not gonna help their concentration check. Seriously, show us even one vampire attempting to Dominate the little army that got them. They didn,'t even try because it'd be stupid to.

[Jasdoif]

Wait. Why is Gontor* leaving armor behind, then? Does that mean he secretely has a coffin?

I think because he was immediately destroyed by exposure to sunlight rather than being reduced to 0 hit points. Malack left his stuff behind after being sun-basted, too:

That's the main reason why I made sure to show him in gaseous form during the Durkon/Malack fight, because that showed that when a vampire is gaseous, they take their equipment with them. Malack's stuff is still there. Hence, he's ash.

[Schroeswald]

Yes actually, Pretty sure Logann's squad, Tinna, Roggo and Minrah have no relations to the Thundershields.

I’m pretty sure no one except for Durkon and Sigdi is related to the Thundershields.

[Fish]

Wait. Why is Gontor* leaving armor behind, then? Does that mean he secretely has a coffin?

He doesn’t need a coffin. That’s just so he can trance in peace.

He can trance if he wants to. He can leave his armor behind..

[Fyraltari]

I’m pretty sure no one except for Durkon and Sigdi is related to the Thundershields.

Family is more than blood.

[Schroeswald]

Family is more than blood.

I’d say Logann’s group is just as reasonable for family as Not-Thad.

[Fish]

And every last one of them are from Durkon's family. Not a single dwarf from another clan shows up to help besides Hylgia who's Durkon's ex-lover.

Meanwhile outside of Durkon's family the average dwarven competency conveniently drops like a rock as seen as they being able to easily overpower an elite army on the defensive.

We’ve covered this. It is a family saved from eternity in Hel’s domain by Sigdi’s selfless act. If course they’re going to focus on not falling back into Hel, because a brush with that afterlife tends to do that to you. They even explain that they’re going to make the most of their second chance: going back to bard college, get a do-over, etc. It would be surprising if almost spending eternity in Hel’s domain didn’t change them.

They're vampires. Every dwarf they kill is another vampire.

After a successful grapple attack, blood drain, and 3 days. They don’t have the EZ Bake Vampire Kit any more.

Every person they dominate is another number to their ranks.

Every person not dominated gets a free hit. And wouldn’t you know it, that’s what happened. Gontor wasted his turn draining Sigdi. Then a dozen attackers each got a turn, and they all used their turn to push Gontor into a sunbeam. How do you imagine this coming out any differently?

They can perfectly do both and did to cut a path of death accross the dwarven lands, except Durkon's family is both conveniently immune and drastically stronger than any other dwarf.

In your imagination, maybe. To me, 12 dwarves with average STR can easily grapple 1 dwarf with vampire strength. He’s not freakin’ Iron Man.