Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

[Lord Torath]

Spoiler: Painted Knight

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Drasius, that looks great! Crisp clean lines, nice contrast, and just a nice over-all look.

Saw this.

Ever had anyone try this?

You mean perching my expensive-and-fragile models on top of a building that is obviously way too small for them? Yeah, that's my fave.

[Avaris]

Saw this.

Ever had anyone try this?

Is it a line of sight thing? Or so they are on a building and so count as in cover?

In any case, it tells me two things. Firstly, that the building rules would be much better if it had a concept of garrisoning, with only infantry able to garrison and one unit per building, rather than whatever you can fit. Secondly, that the ways of thinking in competitive 40k gaming remain utterly alien to me.

[Cheesegear]

Out of curiosity, why the harsh reaction to different colored base rims?

1. The easiest way to make your army look cohesive - regardless of colour scheme - is to base all your models the same way. Conversely, not basing your models the same way, is a really easy way to make your army - as a whole - look bad. Or at the very least, worse.

2. Having coloured rims means that the rim of the base is now part of the model's colour palette. Which means that it's another colour you have to think about when you're painting your models. If your model has a basic two-colour paint scheme, with a third complimentary colour for the base (three-colour minimum, amirite)...Wrong. You're now looking at a scheme involving four colours. Except, once again, if you're trying to get your army to look mostly the same, once you've used the first four-colour scheme...There isn't really another one. One Detachment will look good. The others, will look bad. Unless you've changed the colour scheme of the entire model...In which case, if you've got different coloured models, the only thing that's going to tie them together is the bases, except we've already established that we're making different bases. So how does that even work?

I guess, really, coloured rims aren't for aesthetics. They're for ease-of-gameplay. Which certainly has a place, sure. But if your point of comparison is Space Marine shoulder rims... There are ways you can subtlety paint your models that still give an indication of what unit is which.

For example...Australia has 19 species of Huntsmen spiders. Drasius says he only sees Huntsmen spiders that are boring brown. He, himself, then showed pictures of Huntsmen that were almost pure light grey. I, have pictures of a Huntsmen in my house that is mostly brown with grey banding. Browns with varying shades of grey. You don't have to be that obvious. It's like painting Space Marines with red shoulder rims to represent Blood Angels.

Spoiler: This Huntsman Doesn't Look Like a Monster 'Cause It's Pretty (Still a spider though, fair warning)

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...That would be like painting a whole different Chapter for another Detachment. You don't have to do that. Not for Marines. Not for Tyranids.

There's a reason clear bases have a foothold in the way that they do. Regardless of the model you have, regardless of the colour; Chuck a clear base on. You can't screw up the base if you don't really have a base. Once you've got clear bases, it doesn't matter what Faction you add into your army, because it's clear bases for all.

Saw this.

Ever had anyone try this?

Every day. It's perfectly legal.
Have someone in my meta who routinely puts Fire Prisms on Bastions (which is, ultimately why we retired Bastions from the terrain rotation even though they're really good LoS blockers).

Vehicles with <Fly> are OP for exactly that picture. Is that not common knowledge?

Is it a line of sight thing? Or so they are on a building and so count as in cover?

Neither.
What they are, is effectively un-Chargeable since it's not possible to place a model within 1" of them.
...And given that the opponent is playing Knights, putting units in high Ruins is really funny.

[Lord Torath]

Every day. It's perfectly legal.

Was perfectly legal.

Is there a difference between "Fliers" and "Hoverers"? Fliers can fly, and should be able to be at any location at any altitude. "Hoverers" or Ground-Effect vehicles should, to my mind, be restricted in where they can be placed. But I don't play 8th Edition, so my opinion doesn't count.

Edit: Let's say "Skimmers" instead of "Hoverers". "Skimmers" and "Heavy Skimmers" were the terms used in older editions, which included grav tanks, jet bikes, land speeders, and similar vehicles.

[Avaris]

Every day. It's perfectly legal.
Have someone in my meta who routinely puts Fire Prisms on Bastions (which is, ultimately why we retired Bastions from the terrain rotation even though they're really good LoS blockers).

Vehicles with <Fly> are OP for exactly that picture. Is that not common knowledge?



Neither.
What they are, is effectively un-Chargeable since it's not possible to place a model within 1" of them.
...And given that the opponent is playing Knights, putting units in high Ruins is really funny.

This really highlights how different the approach to the game and ways of playing are in different areas. It simply wouldn’t occur to me to try this sort of thing, and if it did come up, with my opponent not able to charge my unit due to being in a building, I’d quite likely propose a house rule to allow it, as it clearly wasn’t the intent of the rules! I’d be ‘wrong’ to do so of course, but the sort of ‘it’s perfectly legal’ thinking is utterly alien to me.

[Cheesegear]

Was perfectly legal.

Until GW says the same thing, an ITC ruling doesn't mean anything.
ITC has to get the rule out now, or Iron Hands Repulsors are going to make the meta a joke... It's okay. Iron Hands will just switch to Stormhawks.

[Drasius]

@Drasius: that knight is gorgeous. And an appropriate color for October.

I concur! Orange is probably the most under-used colour, I'm hard pressed to think of anyone who uses it apart from Fire Dragons, and yours looks all the better for it being a novelty.

Drasius, that looks great! Crisp clean lines, nice contrast, and just a nice over-all look.

Thanks for the kind words gents and/or ladies. I will say that Orange is underused for a reason - that thing has over 30 coats of orange over mechanicum grey and it still looks patchy in a couple of places. Will definitely be trying out a brown layer to try and limit the amount of coats of orange required on the next one. Very glad I never did the Orange/Black marine army I had intended on doing all these years. I would have topped myself before I got more than a few models done.

Saw this.

Ever had anyone try this?

You mean perching my expensive-and-fragile models on top of a building that is obviously way too small for them? Yeah, that's my fave.

Is it a line of sight thing? Or so they are on a building and so count as in cover?

What they are, is effectively un-Chargeable since it's not possible to place a model within 1" of them.
...And given that the opponent is playing Knights, putting units in high Ruins is really funny.

Cheese is on the money. It has been a common thing for Anti-Knight work to just jam your stuff in buildings since knights were released. They've got a stratagem in 8th that allows them to charge and attack stuff in buildings that they can't normally charge (Devastating Reach), but only works for stuff with a melee weapon on top of the proximity restrictions. It's much better than it used to be in 6th/7th, but most knight lists aren't swimming in CP and many of their builds burn through the few they do have pretty quickly, so it can be pretty valid to let 'em waste their CP and then be immune.

It's also a pretty foolproof way to remove one of the glaring weaknesses of vehicles (getting charged) by putting them out of reach.

Don't tell me everyone has forgotten the old trick of simply packing a 2nd story ruin with enough models that your opponent had nowhere to make base contact and thus your stuff was unchargable? Not really a thing now, but it was around for quite a while. I seem to recall some shenanigans with putting Russes on multi-level ruins during deployment in previous editions as well as people abusing bastion/bunker/skyshields to avoid being charged too.

[Cheesegear]

They've got a stratagem in 8th that allows them to charge and attack stuff in buildings that they can't normally charge (Devastating Reach)

...They've got a Stratagem that allows them to 'reach' 6" from their base. If the Ruin or third storey is 7" high, the Knights are boned. This is a common occurrence, especially with the stupidly high Shrine of the Aquilla, which is what it is.

Not really a thing now, but it was around for quite a while.

The last remaining problem in 8th Ed. is Librarian Dreadnoughts and Wings of Sanguinius.
...The Dreadnought is stuck in the Ruin again. Someone call the fire department for a ladder.

[Drasius]

...They've got a Stratagem that allows them to 'reach' 6" from their base. If the Ruin or third storey is 7" high, the Knights are boned. This is a common occurrence, especially with the stupidly high Shrine of the Aquilla, which is what it is.

If you had of quoted the rest of the sentance, you would have noticed the "on top of the proximity restrictions" part.

But yes, anything more than a little off the ground and knights are limited to shooting them. Still, unless you're running a meme list with 5 Gallants w/Stormspear pods, most knight shooting should usually get the job done against almost anything bar Iron Hands shenanigans.

Plus it also means giving up board control to a degree if you're going to camp in 7"+ high ruins all game, which is often playing into a knight players hands since they only count as 1 model, so they're not used to getting easy points for controling stuff.

[LansXero]

That ruling seems odd since it also hits Flyers. It says 'Vehicles with Fly', which means I cant park Hemlocks on top of terrain. Which is pretty stupid as they couldnt've been charged by ground chaff anyways, but sometimes I need that vantage point to land a Jinx.

[Hootman]

Scout Bikes aren't 'good', per se, but they are useful on occasion and they're definitely what you bring when you want to make a Space Marine Brigade for some reason.

Could you explain why you'd take Scout Bikes over Marine Bikes?

Actually, I'll try to work it out. Assuming Battlescribe is right, they cost the exact same number of points for nearly identical models. Marines are 14"/3+, Scouts are 16"/4+ and come with Shotguns. Which obviously gives the damage-dealing edge to the Scouts, until you see only Marines can take multiple special weapons that do anything. The AGL replaces the Twin Bolter, and seems like it would be super ineffective to me. Is it just that having free Shotguns is better than being able to buy Flamers or Plasmaguns? Perhaps. Free bullets are good bullets. I suppose the extra movement makes charges easier too, and boosting onto objectives from like 22" away. Did I miss anything? Do Scout Bikers have a unique Strategem?

[Forum Explorer]

Could you explain why you'd take Scout Bikes over Marine Bikes?

Actually, I'll try to work it out. Assuming Battlescribe is right, they cost the exact same number of points for nearly identical models. Marines are 14"/3+, Scouts are 16"/4+ and come with Shotguns. Which obviously gives the damage-dealing edge to the Scouts, until you see only Marines can take multiple special weapons that do anything. The AGL replaces the Twin Bolter, and seems like it would be super ineffective to me. Is it just that having free Shotguns is better than being able to buy Flamers or Plasmaguns? Perhaps. Free bullets are good bullets. I suppose the extra movement makes charges easier too, and boosting onto objectives from like 22" away. Did I miss anything? Do Scout Bikers have a unique Strategem?

I think for 1 CP, scout bikes can fall back and deal D3 mortal wounds.

[Hootman]

I decided to write up a list of what I have for Vanilla Marines models, so I could ask for recommendations for how to build a decent list from it. I don't have a lot of extra currency at present, so I'm limited in how I can expand, but I have enough bitz that I'm reasonably confident I can convert up something acceptable. I've got knives, green stuff, and super glue to spare.

Spoiler

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These groupings of models are rough, and for the sake of general organization. Obviously, most Marines can be transplanted from one unit designation to another without any fuss, particularly if they aren't painted yet (so, all of them). Devastators can be attached to Tacticals, and Captain Salio could become a Vanguard Veteran. I can also rearm, convert, or scratch build things to gain extra options. I could build a custom Thunderfire Cannon for the Techmarine with the Harness, or repurpose all of the grounded Assault Marines into Bolter Marines. It's all a work in progress, but listing it out has given me a better feel for what I have access to.


HQ
Heroes
-1 Vulkan He'stan
-1 Librarian with Force Axe
-1 Chaplain
-1 Captain Han Salio, hero of my Blood Angel days (Power Axe, Meltabombs, Jump Pack)
-1 Techmarine with Servo Harness
-1 Techmarine with Power Axe
-1 Chainsword and Pistol, but cool
-1 Bolter and Banner Pole [no banner, but that's what green stuff is for]

TROOPS
Tactical Marines
-3 Bolters
-11 No-Arms Men

Scouts (13)
-1 Scout Sergeant with Power Fist and Shotgun
-3 Scouts with Shotguns
-1 Scout with Combat Blade and Pistol
-7 Snipers
-1 Missile Launcher

Primaris Troops (5)
-3 Bolt Rifles
-1 Bolt Rifle with AGL
-1 Custom Combi-Bolt Rifle/flamer, which could be billed as an integrated Hand Flamer

ELITES
Terminators
-5 Assault Terminators [unbuilt]

Vanguard Veterans
-10 unbuilt (2 Thunderhammers, no Storm Shields) [Death Company with Jetpacks]
-1 Dual Lightning Claws [Jetpack]

Dreanoughts (4)
-1 Ironclad Dreadnought (2 Fists, 2 Heavy Flamers)
-2 Dreadnoughts (Fist with Stormbolter, Multimelta)
-1 Venerable Dreadnought (Twin Lascannons, Missile Launcher)[currently working for my Grey Knights]

FAST ATTACK
Assault Marines [No Jetpacks]
-1 Thunderhammer
-1 Power Axe
-2 Relic Blades
-2 Storm Shields
-6 Chainswords

Bikers (18)
-12 Ravenwing Bike models, mostly Command kits [unbuilt, might get Looted]
-6 Bikes from a bitz box, with probably enough rider bitz [bikes are built, might get Looted]

HEAVY SUPPORT
Devastators (12)
-2 Sergeants with Signum
-2 Heavy Bolters
-2 Missile Launchers
-2 Lascannons
-3 Plasma Cannons
-1 Multimelta

Centurions
-3 unfinished

TRANSPORTS
-1 Drop Pod
-2 Razorbacks with Twin Lascannon [currently used by my Grey Knights]
-2+ Rhinos [currently stolen by Tzeenchian Marines, but as yet uncorrupted by Chaos]

MISCELLANEOUS
-A whole bunch of bitz I've gathered over the last decade, that should allow me to kludge together a fair number of additional marines, so long as I'm willing to put in the extra effort to remove Wrong-Faction details, like Space Wolf torsos and Chaos legs. I'd rather avoid doing a ton of that, though, since they often look terrible afterwards due to the removal not being smooth enough. I've been slowly combing through the bits looking for ones that will be easier to repurpose; I have about 10 potentially usable bodies that won't require an excess of effort to make Good Enough^TM.

I know I have a fairly respectable number of Flamers and Meltaguns kicking around. Plasmaguns are in shorter supply, but I do have a few. I've only got like 1 gravgun.

I'm currently planning on fielding my Marines as Salamanders (or a custom Chapter that is similar), so I ought to tentatively group my models such that I can take advantage of the Free Rerolls trait I expect to have. This is what I've come up with so far for a list that might work, and I'd appreciate any feedback from people who know Marines better than I do.

Spoiler: Ave Salamandra, List 1

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Salamanders Battalion
HQ
Vulkan He'stan, 135pts

Lieutenant, 60pts
-2 Chainswords

TROOPS
Scouts 5, 98pts
-4 Snipers, 1 Missile
-Camo Cloaks

Scouts 5, 64pts
-1 PF/Shotgun, 3 Shotguns, 1 Combat Blade

Intercessors 5, 87pts
-5 Bolt Rifles, plus AGL, and Hand Flamer added to Sergeant

ELITES
Ironclad Dreadnought, 133pts
-DCCW with Heavy Flamer, Seismic Hammer with Heavy Flamer

Sternguard Veterans 10, 184pts
-Sergeant with SIBG and Combi-flamer (Can he actually dual-wield boltguns? If so, that's hilarious.)
-1 Heavy Flamer, 1 Multimelta, 7 Special Issue Boltguns
+Drop Pod with Stormbolter, 65pts

Vanguard Veterans 10, 242pts
-2 TH/SS, 2 TH/Chainsword, 2 SS/Chainsword, 4 Dual Chainswords
-Jump Packs


Salamanders Spearhead
HQ
Librarian in Power Armor, 90pts
-Force Axe, Boltgun

HEAVY SUPPORT
Thunderfire Cannon, 92pts
-Techmarine Gunner with Servo Harness

Devastators 5, 145pts
-Sergeant with Signum, Bolter, Chainsword
-1 Heavy Bolter, 1 Missile, 2 Lascannons

Devastators 5, 127pts
-Sergeant with Signum, Bolter, Chainsword
-1 Heavy Bolter, 1 Missile, 2 Plasmacannons


TOTAL: 1522pts, 9 CP

I was aiming for 1500, so going just over that isn't bad for the first draft. Obviously, if Battlescribe has misled me on what I can take, I'll have to make adjustments.

Edit: Fussing more with lists, it really seems like melta weapons are really hard to justify paying for, when plasma exists. Melta has a higher individual damage by....a lot, but that means it's pretty much wasted if you can't get in range of a priority target. Slagging a Tactical marine is cool, but I'd rather slag the Predator a foot behind him. But I guess that's what fixed Drop Pods are kinda for...

[Cheesegear]

Played a couple of Kill Team games today just to get our hands back in when tournament comes in a few months. Then it was back to painting my Guard, and theory-crafting my Cities of Sigmar lists.

Spoiler: Tyranids (Core)

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Termagants (x2); Devourers - 14 Points
Termagants (x10); Scout - 40 Points

Lictor; Veteran - 25 Points

Tyranid Warrior; Deathspitter, Flesh Hooks, Boneswords, Toxin Sacs, Leader - 23 Points
Tyranid Warrior; Deathspitter, Flesh Hooks, Boneswords, Toxin Sacs, Comms - 23 Points
Tyranid Warrior Gunner; Flesh Hooks, Venom Cannon, Boneswords, Toxin Sacs, Heavy - 25 Points

Genestealer; Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs, Leader - 12 Points
Genestealer; Acid Maw, Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs, Combat - 12 Points
Genestealer; Flesh Hooks, Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs, Scout - 12 Points
Genestealer; Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs - 12 Points

Model Count: 20
Total Points: 198 Points

Mission was 1 VP for each model slain in Melee. I debated with myself whether or not to take the Lictor. But Astartes don't die that easily - not even Scouts - and if the Lictor gets tied up against nothing, then it's useless. If my opponents list had 5 Tacticals, 5 Reivers, and 10 Intercessors, I probably would have taken the Lictor because my opponent wouldn't have tarpit options. And picked up the standard Astartes horde of 9 Bolter Scouts with two Heavy Bolters. I went with the standard combo of Comms & Heavy, which also gave double Synapse for redundancy, then all four Genestealers and a Termagant.

The Scouts scored some early kills with Boltguns, since I was too busy Advancing while he Readied his entire Team. Except that 'killing with Boltguns' isn't the Mission, and I was fine with it.

Turn 2, I start Charging. I spend 2 CPs for Hunting Roar. Rending Claws & Toxin Sacs results in a dead Marine pretty much every time...No save, double Injury dice, thanks for playing. Rolling Flesh Wounds against Astartes Teams is the worst, so...Don't. Gotta bring those multi-Damage weapons. I rack up a bunch of VPs, and game is over at the bottom of Turn 3.

Game 2...I think his list was...
Scout Gunner; Heavy Bolter
Scout Sergeant; Chainsword
Tac Gunner; Plasma Gun
Tac Sergeant; Power Fist
Intercessor; Auspex
Intercessor Gunner; AGL

I went with... Termagants (x6), Lictor, Genestealers (x4)

So obviously my opponent learned his lesson...Kind of. I know he swapped in Plasma Gun and AGL to deal with my Warriors. Whatever. I didn't really take Nerve tests last game anyway, and I really don't think Instinctive Behaviour is even that bad. Fleshborers only have a 12" range anyway. If I'm shooting anything, it'll be the closest model. Things went bad almost immediately, as the Auspex took away my Lictor's Obscurity, and the Plasma Sniper dealt out 4 Wounds on Turn 1. Is that how it's gonna be? So, second game went really badly as my Team's heavy hitter was literally blasted out of the game immediately. Genestealers tried their best.

But, in the end I think I lost the game by only two points.

[Avaris]

New details out on Psychic Awakening: Phoenix Rising. On the community site.

Interesting things:

• Released alongside the 'biggest battle box ever'. Expect this to sell out quickly for Aeldari players: Zain Zar, 5 Banshees, 1 Falcon, 1 Vyper, Drazhar, 5 Incubi, 5 Hellions, 5 Scourges and 1 Venom. Could be a hefty saving if priced similar to previous battleboxes, which tend to be £120 iirc. I make it £107.50 for the existing stuff, characters are probably at least £15 each, new units at least £20, so looking at maybe £175 worth of value in the box.
• Book is 80 pages, which starts us looking at a price point. It's the same length as the Ultramarines codex supplement, so I would expect something similar, which is good! I don't play Aeldari, but would happily pick this book up if it is a similar price to the supplement.
• Sounds like quite a lot of material in the book as well. Most interesting are "new customisable Craftworld Attributes that work like the Successor Tactics in Codex: Space Marines". I wonder if we'll start seeing these across more factions?

[Wraith]

Pretty underwhelmed, to be honest. As someone pointed out before, it's an event called "Psychic Awakening" and there are no psykers in that box. Seems like the perfect opportunity to fill a box with new Warlock Coven models, or something, but... there we go.

I still kind of want to know where they're going with this event, but what I've seen so far has left me a bit cold. Just what is the intent? What's the plan? I'm luke-warm on Aeldari and Drukhari at best, and GW really haven't given me enough to make me want to change my mind, it's not a good way to advertise a pre-order, I feel.

[EDIT] At the same time, GW China (and I mean actual GW China, not a euphamism...) have revealed the contents of the SoB boxed set on Facebook. Here's a BoLS link with the details, a picture of the the sprues and an untranslated character card for what appears to be a Canoness or the Repentia Mistress (?), but when translated the contents read as follows:

• 80pg Codex Sororitas
• 80 limited edition stat cards
• 12 special dice
• Transfer Sheet
• 1 Canoness
• 10 Battle Sisters
• 5 Seraphim
• 1 Repentia Squad Leader (?)
• 4 Sisters Repentia
• 3 Arco-Flagellant(?)
• 1 Penitent Engine

[Blackhawk748]

Pretty underwhelmed, to be honest. As someone pointed out before, it's an event called "Psychic Awakening" and there are no psykers in that box. Seems like the perfect opportunity to fill a box with new Warlock Coven models, or something, but... there we go.

I still kind of want to know where they're going with this event, but what I've seen so far has left me a bit cold. Just what is the intent? What's the plan? I'm luke-warm on Aeldari and Drukhari at best, and GW really haven't given me enough to make me want to change my mind, it's not a good way to advertise a pre-order, I feel.

[EDIT] At the same time, GW China (and I mean actual GW China, not a euphamism...) have revealed the contents of the SoB boxed set on Facebook. Here's a BoLS link with the details, a picture of the the sprues and an untranslated character card for what appears to be a Canoness or the Repentia Mistress (?), but when translated the contents read as follows:

• 80pg Codex Sororitas
• 80 limited edition stat cards
• 12 special dice
• Transfer Sheet
• 1 Canoness
• 10 Battle Sisters
• 5 Seraphim
• 1 Repentia Squad Leader (?)
• 4 Sisters Repentia
• 3 Arco-Flagellant(?)
• 1 Penitent Engine

So it was just literally what we saw in the pics and nothing extra.

Ya, no thanks.

[Cheesegear]

80pg Codex Sororitas

WTF...Only 80 pages?

So it was just literally what we saw in the pics and nothing extra.

If the Codex is only 80 pages, it's only going to have as much content as Custodes. Don't expect a lot.

[Blackhawk748]

If the Codex is only 80 pages, it's only going to have as much content as Custodes. Don't expect a lot.

I expected nothing, so this is pretty well in line with what I figured.

[LansXero]

Expect this to sell out quickly for Aeldari players

Why? Is anyone going 'I sure need more incubus and banshees' right now? Sure, new models, but... I dont know, I know they'll underproduce so that flufbunnies and 'must have everything' whales buy it out, but the box feels pointless.

I'll be printing the VK version as soon as it becomes available then keeping in store, just to make plain how redundant this box feels for me.

At the same time, GW China (and I mean actual GW China, not a euphamism...) have revealed the contents of the SoB boxed set on Facebook. Here's a BoLS link with the details, a picture of the the sprues and an untranslated character card for what appears to be a Canoness or the Repentia Mistress (?), but when translated the contents read as follows:

80pg Codex Sororitas

Unless that means there is, like, no fluff at all, then it probably means they get as many datasheets as Custodes. Which is idiotic, because then it either means no new releases so its a dead faction, or no rules for new releases which make it a pointless book of bull****.

The candle of my hope for a playable Sisters army dwindles more and more already :'(

[Saambell]

As someone who has wanted to get some Sisters of Battle for a long while, but was always put off by metal models, is the kit an ok buy for a brand new player? Its obvious its worthless to someone with 4000 points of the old sisters, but as a starter kit, is it bad? And for someone in a not at all competitive place, is there at least a hope the codex will at least stand up to the lower end codexes? Same thing with the Eldar box, I have a very small army of both kinds, and they at least look like a nice way to get a small step up on both at once. Especially as a bunch of the models from the box set were finecast only before which I refused to buy. So, while they are useless for people with existing armies, I can at least see the possibility for them being semi good starter kits or at least next steps.

[LansXero]

As someone who has wanted to get some Sisters of Battle for a long while, but was always put off by metal models, is the kit an ok buy for a brand new player? Its obvious its worthless to someone with 4000 points of the old sisters, but as a starter kit, is it bad? And for someone in a not at all competitive place, is there at least a hope the codex will at least stand up to the lower end codexes? Same thing with the Eldar box, I have a very small army of both kinds, and they at least look like a nice way to get a small step up on both at once. Especially as a bunch of the models from the box set were finecast only before which I refused to buy. So, while they are useless for people with existing armies, I can at least see the possibility for them being semi good starter kits or at least next steps.

Sadly, neither gives you a playable detachment, so you'd also need to buy troops at least. Both boxes are likely to be terrible in multiples of, due to the value tied up in the book of which you really only never need 1 copy, and in special characters who arent likely to be very useful.

I'd focus on what army you actually want to play, and start buying that in increments instead of slowly filling up two - three armies at a time. The DE Start collecting box wasnt bad last time I checked, so thats likely a better option.

As for Sisters being viable, it really depends on what you want to do with them. Under the beta codex, most imperial factions will outshine them at a given role except anti-psyker, and with their wet towel offensive output thats not good enough. So the new codex could fix them somewhat, but the seeming lack of unit variety, lack of access to anti-tank wargear and vehicles and no LoW / Flyers at all wont get fixed by the new codex.

[Cheesegear]

As someone who has wanted to get some Sisters of Battle for a long while, but was always put off by metal models, is the kit an ok buy for a brand new player?

The kit isn't designed for you to start an army. It's designed to give you one of everything. Which is for hobbyists. Not for people actually looking to start an army. Okay, so we know that the box wont even get you close to a Battalion. Does it at least offer you good tools to get there?
(e.g; The Deathwatch SC! box has two Troops and a Captain [that you can convert using a billion parts from the Veterans]. Is it a Battalion? No. Is it what you want to take to make a Battalion? Yes.)

but as a starter kit, is it bad?

It has one Troops and an HQ... Maybe two Troops if GW is lazy and a '10-Woman squad' is simply two 5-squad sprues, like Intercessors. That's fine. It's everything else that's the problem. I'm willing to be that even discounted, a lot of that stuff isn't worth paying for. So who knows.

is there at least a hope the codex will at least stand up to the lower end codexes?

Sure. All's you have to do to be competitive in the current meta is have Troops that are 7 Points per model. If you've got that, you're already winning a lot of games against some of the more terrible Codecies in the game. I believe Sisters, currently, are 9 Points? So Sisters will shape up to be a very middle tier Codex if you play them like a normal person - like AdMech. There's unlikely to be a super-unit that you're going to spam. But who knows? Maybe Seraphim will be good in the second half of the edition?

I can at least see the possibility for them being semi good starter kits or at least next steps.

The Aeldari box is a horrid starter set. It's for people who already have Aeldari armies, and even then...Unless the box massively increases the power of the units (probably by huge force multiplying factors out of the new HQs), it'll be terrible. Neither Howling Banshees nor Incubi in their current state will ever see the table if the respective players build their army remotely well. Anything Banshees can do, is done better by Wraithblades, Shining Spears or a Conclave. Anything Incubi do, is done better by...Not having them.

Once again, I'd have to stress not pre-ordering anything, ever, until you know the rules. If you miss out? ...Well, [current year] GW ends up bringing out everything anyway. You just have to wait a bit longer than people who like to gamble on expensive paperweights.
(I feel very, very sorry for anyone who pre-ordered Tooth & Claw expecting Space Wolves to fix 'Primaris Melee Marines' like GW implied was going to happen)

[Voidhawk]

As someone who has wanted to get some Sisters of Battle for a long while, but was always put off by metal models, is the kit an ok buy for a brand new player? Its obvious its worthless to someone with 4000 points of the old sisters, but as a starter kit, is it bad? And for someone in a not at all competitive place, is there at least a hope the codex will at least stand up to the lower end codexes? Same thing with the Eldar box, I have a very small army of both kinds, and they at least look like a nice way to get a small step up on both at once. Especially as a bunch of the models from the box set were finecast only before which I refused to buy. So, while they are useless for people with existing armies, I can at least see the possibility for them being semi good starter kits or at least next steps.

The issue with the Eldar box is that until we know the rules that come with it literally the entire faction is up in the air. The addition of build-a-kabal-workshop means that almost everything we know is up for change. Maybe the update just ends up buffing everything the same amount, so what we already know to be good remains so. Maybe there are stealth-nerfs that make everything that was previously good, bad. There's no way to tell, unless you work at GW and have access to the Great Dartboard of Balance.

That all said, here's where things currently stand (AFAIK):

Dark Eldar

• Venom - Great. You can never have too many. Kind of an either/or with Raiders, but both options are very playable.
• Scourge - Pretty decent. Haywire is always good, and not getting a Kabal Obsession makes them predictable.
• Hellions - Absolute rubbish. I've tried using mine in so many games in so many ways, and they've under-performed every time. I find it hard to imagine the buffs that wouldn't keep them at the bottom of the pile. Pity really, since I think the models are lovely.
• Incubi - The Known-Unknown. Currently not great, are getting at least one buff, don't get Kabal Obsessions currently but might get something else? Value could easily fluctuate between "Best In Codex" and "Don't Bother".

Craftworlds

• Vyper - Not great. Eldar have better platforms for heavy weapons.
• Falcon - Not a Fire-Prism or a Wave Serpent or a plane. That said, it's not that hard to convert it into one of the first two, or just proxy it.
• Banshees - Another known-unknown. They're getting a buff, but will it propel them into the stratosphere or just be kinda meh? Who knows.

So yeah. Come back a in couple of weeks and we'll be able to give you actual useful advice.

[Forum Explorer]

[*]Vyper - Not great. Eldar have better platforms for heavy weapons.

I disagree with this. I mean, for starters, don't put heavy weapons on it. But two Shurikan Cannons on a 60 point model is pretty decent, and wonderful for filling out Brigades. Or if you really want to make it cheap, 52 points for Shurikan Cannon+Twin Shuriken Catapult.


But otherwise, yeah, we have no idea how the rules will end up being. It isn't a good starter kit regardless, because it lacks any sort of troop choice.

[Wraith]

Vypers are not "bad" by any stretch. They're just not "great", and Codex Aeldari has a lot of "great" units competing for attention. Would that the armies I play had the same problem...

I think my feelings on this GW box are quite well know. The theme is a mess (given what we know so far, anyway) and boxed sets with a named character are a bad idea. At most I'm only ever going to buy one of them - which is bad for GW because they don't get more of my money - or else I'm going to flood eBay with second-hand copies of that character - which is also bad for GW as then they don't get more of other people's money.

I know it's not intended to be "a starter box", but I always feel impelled to ask... Why not? Why isn't the next big plot-centric event an opportunity for GW to vacuum up as many new players as possible, or to give existing players a viable place to jump into a new army?

[Blackhawk748]

As someone who has wanted to get some Sisters of Battle for a long while, but was always put off by metal models, is the kit an ok buy for a brand new player? Its obvious its worthless to someone with 4000 points of the old sisters, but as a starter kit, is it bad? And for someone in a not at all competitive place, is there at least a hope the codex will at least stand up to the lower end codexes? Same thing with the Eldar box, I have a very small army of both kinds, and they at least look like a nice way to get a small step up on both at once. Especially as a bunch of the models from the box set were finecast only before which I refused to buy. So, while they are useless for people with existing armies, I can at least see the possibility for them being semi good starter kits or at least next steps.

This judgment is based off the Index primarily as the Beta Dex changed very little in what was good or not.

Cannoness: She's our only HQ, but she's decent. Keep her cheap and let her hang out with the Heavy Weapons and it's fine.

Battle Sisters: Decent infantry for their cost, solid anti psyker. Not much else here.

Seraphim: where only ever good for hanging out with Celestine and as such one squad was enough. Not terribly good, but not god awful.

Repentia: Awful and practically useless even in a casual area. The transition to 8th was rough for them.

Arco Flagellants: Kinda meaty, hit ok ish, but not worth it. Pass.

Penitent Engine: Actually decent. If you rub multiples. One is worthless.

All in all, it's fine if you buy one. Multiples aren't worth your money as there are no Retributors or Dominions which are the good stuff.

This is all dependant on price point. If the Repentia aren't basically free then it's not worth it and you should just wait for the Dex and other models. I have a feeling this will be the better decision.

[LansXero]

This is all dependant on price point. If the Repentia aren't basically free then it's not worth it and you should just wait for the Dex and other models. I have a feeling this will be the better decision.

Consider that the new Blood of the Phoenix box is 230$... AND IT DOESNT EVEN INCLUDE THE NEW SUPPLEMENT.

Expect the Sisters box to be 200 - 250 easily.

GW is messing up bad

[Cheesegear]

ITC has to get the rule out now, or Iron Hands Repulsors are going to make the meta a joke... It's okay. Iron Hands will just switch to Stormhawks.

Oh ****.
...They did. Called it, I guess.

You can't stop power-gamers, power-gaming. You can only control what they power-game with.

[LansXero]

Oh ****.
...They did. Called it, I guess.

You can't stop power-gamers, power-gaming. You can only control what they power-game with.

Thats great, because it was a stupid knee-jerk reaction of a rule, which should've never been in place to begin with. Its a bandaid fix on the bigger underlying issue of poorly defined guidelines for terrain; a hobbyist allowance that has no place in a competitive ruleset. Want to make your own unique and lovely scenery? enjoy getting anomalous rules scenarios; for everyone else who follows these sets of scenery rules (width, length, height, # of floors, whatever) it should prevent stuff like stacking on a narrow ledge.