Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

[Drasius]

Iron Hands just flooded the top of the most recent GT though, so they'll likely have a huge target on their backs.

Such a vibrant lovely meta where you see terminators and Iron Hands, of all things, be decried as 'OP' not even 6 months after being considered unplayable trash

And there are still people who dont realize 8th is the best edition ever.

If you blindly overbuff things that have been terrible for a long time, that doesn't make it good, it just means the meta cycles. There's not any more balance than there was before, there's already people saying all the same things about IH that were said about 7th eldar - They're sufficiently unfun to play against that they are effectively getting banned in some casual circles just because nobody wants to play against them.

Vehicles that weren't knights or wildly on one end of the toughness to cost ratio *cough* leviathans *cough* were already in bad shape 'cause if the meta needs to gear up to kill knights in a single turn of shooting, anything with half the wounds, no invulnerable and possibly not even T8 is going to be blown off the board without a second thought. Then you stack a trifecta of powerful buffs onto the direct counters to knights and any other vehicle is an active detriment to your list and now IF double down on this since they can simply take anti-infantry heavy loadouts and do well enough against Vee's that it doesn't matter if they're bringing heavy bolters or lascannons 'cause it'll all work out about the same.

8th is the best edition ever? Pull the other one mate, it's got bells on it.

[LansXero]

Plus FNP6, AoE invulnerable and AoE -1 damage, so they dont have excuse of 'but Im paper thin' that Aeldari flyers have.

[LansXero]

8th is the best edition ever? Pull the other one mate, it's got bells on it.

CA is coming in what, 2 months? You know that once they've ran out of IF supplements to sell as the 'counter vehicle army' they'll just nerf it back.

Then I look at my Bretonia book, and weep.

8th Edition is the best edition because of how it allows for evolving fixes, and because they actually happen. Blatant cash grab? Well duh, thats what you for playing FotM, you jump in knowing how it'll work.

Might not be your favorite, mind you, but thats ok. Just look at my Bretonia book, untouched for over a decade, and tell me 'the old way' was best :v.

[Cheesegear]

8th Edition is the best edition because of how it allows for evolving fixes, and because they actually happen.

Oberoni Fallacy doesn't make a game good.
8th Ed. is the best edition (albeit not without flaws) because it's a better game. Not because GW is finally engaging with customers - albeit at the barest possible minimum.

8th Ed. was already the best edition when it was just Indecies. Why? Because of the way the game played. Have FAQs and Errata made the game better more fair? Sure. But 8th Ed. was already good to begin with.

[Wraith]

I know GW can't give us names anymore. But, internally, there should at least be some reprimands and 'Do not leave unattended' warnings for that writer...And the editor...And all the play-testers who thought that Iron Hands was fine.

GW's rules are working exactly as intended.

That intention is to make you go out and buy a whole new army every 6 months, preferably one as diametrically opposed to the old one as possible so that you're not cheapening out and stripping paint off things when you could be buying all new ones.

That doesn't necessarily make it bad. It's vibrant and refreshing itself, and encourages different meta-games.... So long as you recognise that you don't HAVE to play super competitive S-Rank only lists only and be exploited twice per year.

[Cheesegear]

GW's rules are working exactly as intended.

...That is the more worrying concern. That Hanlon's Razor doesn't apply, and GW is doing exactly what it means to.
...But that doesn't explain Space Wolves. Or on-release T'au...Or a whole host of things.

Why was Wake the Dead...The way it was?


But let's say GW does release something broken by accident...
Don't we, the consumers, know that GW will just nerf it? Why buy anything until like, a month after release?

[Wraith]

The only thing I can think of is either that you're right and they really are just bad at writing rules, which is why they can only do stupidly overpowered or nothing....

...Or, in line with a discussion we had a few weeks ago, GW doesn't plan a lot of it's releases. They have some big events that they want to succeed, like Space Marines being relaunched, so that stuff gets broken and made OP about once per year to guarantee that people buy it.

Everything else that comes out in the other 11 months is just... stuff. They have a studio making models as they see fit and then throw together just enough rules to make them kind-of work, but it doesn't need to be incredibly successful, it just needs to make it's production cost back (hence why GW so often under-manufactures new releases) and to keep collectors on the hook until they *are* ready to reel them in as the Next Big Thing™.

It's cynical, but... it seems to be accurate, so far.

[Forum Explorer]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.
If GW does do play-testing, then their play-testers either are ****, or are put under such ****ty restrictions that their feedback is non-existent and they may as well not be there.

GW writes rules by wish-listing, same as the rest of us. That wish-list is then filtered through one or two other people to be something that almost reasonably makes sense. Except what happens when those other two people also have no idea what they're talking about?

Heavy weapons, are almost always the most powerful weapons in any Codex:
- Increase the AP by -1,
- Move and Shoot Heavy weapons without penalty,
- Re-roll 1s to hit with Heavy weapons.

Any one of those abilities would be more than enough of a bonus. Iron Hands? ...Get all three.

Who the **** designed that? Then, who was asleep at the wheel to let that go through to print? Especially on Vehicles where the point of keeping them balanced is giving them -1 to hit if they move (looking at you, Stormhawks).

I know GW can't give us names anymore. But, internally, there should at least be some reprimands and 'Do not leave unattended' warnings for that writer...And the editor...And all the play-testers who thought that Iron Hands was fine.

I could see it being acceptable (still OP, but acceptable), if Devastator Doctrine lasted a single turn. But it lasts all game, and there is no reason to ever leave it if you've built your army around it.

Alternatively, if Devastator Doctrine was the one you got at turn 3.

...That is the more worrying concern. That Hanlon's Razor doesn't apply, and GW is doing exactly what it means to.
...But that doesn't explain Space Wolves. Or on-release T'au...Or a whole host of things.

Why was Wake the Dead...The way it was?


But let's say GW does release something broken by accident...
Don't we, the consumers, know that GW will just nerf it? Why buy anything until like, a month after release?

Put me in the boat of 'GW is kinda incompetent'. They are trying, I'll give them that. But they really and truly do not understand how to balance the game. They can barely recognize a problem when it arises.

Also yeah, I really don't get why people jump on the bandwagon of OP armies in 8th. You might get more than a month. You might even get an entire year of them being OP. But that's a lot of money to throw down on something with a very definite lifespan. I mean, to an extent, I understand for the top tournaments if they have a prize pool that justifies the expense, but otherwise, I don't understand that sort of spending.

But then again, I'm not rich.

[Cheesegear]

Iron Hands vs. Imperial Fists, who wins?
...Who goes first?

Actually. I take it back.

+1 Damage to Vehicles with Heavy weapons isn't anything when you're dealing with Iron Hands, and it barely helps vs. Knights.
Wake me up when 'Fists don't take the -1 to hit coming out of a Drop Pod (like Iron Hands).
Wake me up when 'Fists find a way around AoE 'Half Damage', -1 Damage, Ignore Wounds, counting as double wounds, and healing 9 Wounds per turn.

EDIT:
Also, turns out, you can no longer use interrupt Stratagems vs. units that come out of a Drop Pod. Seems like that's another rule GW went back on. Making Drop Pods, even stronger, especially on Turn 1...With Heavy weapons. Like, if there was a Chapter that could do that.

[Blackhawk748]

Also yeah, I really don't get why people jump on the bandwagon of OP armies in 8th. You might get more than a month. You might even get an entire year of them being OP. But that's a lot of money to throw down on something with a very definite lifespan. I mean, to an extent, I understand for the top tournaments if they have a prize pool that justifies the expense, but otherwise, I don't understand that sort of spending.

I don't either, particularly because not only will they nerf it, they'll probably over nerf it (hi Guiliman) and now all of that is just worthless plastic. Hell Grey Knights know that pain.

[Destro_Yersul]

I still like 4th best.

[Cheesegear]

I still like 4th best.

I remember 4th being a fun time...But that's almost definitely nostalgia goggles.

In reality, it was Khorne Berzerker Rhino Rush time with Howling Banshees coming out of Falcons. Consolidating into the next unit, into the next unit, into the next unit. Bad times.

[Drasius]

CA is coming in what, 2 months? You know that once they've ran out of IF supplements to sell as the 'counter vehicle army' they'll just nerf it back.

Then I look at my Bretonia book, and weep.

8th Edition is the best edition because of how it allows for evolving fixes, and because they actually happen. Blatant cash grab? Well duh, thats what you for playing FotM, you jump in knowing how it'll work.

Might not be your favorite, mind you, but thats ok. Just look at my Bretonia book, untouched for over a decade, and tell me 'the old way' was best :v.

Just because they're going to address some issues from 6 months ago and charge me for the privilege doesn't make it good. The fact that they release [broken thing] and then [counter to broken thing] doesn't make it good either, especially for the multitude of armies who aren't [counter to broken thing] but are countered by [broken thing]. If I wanted forced meta shifts every couple of months and ham handed balance, I'd go play Path of Exile.

Oberoni Fallacy doesn't make a game good.
8th Ed. is the best edition (albeit not without flaws) because it's a better game. Not because GW is finally engaging with customers - albeit at the barest possible minimum.

8th Ed. was already the best edition when it was just Indecies. Why? Because of the way the game played. Have FAQs and Errata made the game better more fair? Sure. But 8th Ed. was already good to begin with.

Was 8th good on release though? I still don't think it's much chop now, but it was worse on release. Might just be my personal opinion on soup being cancer colouring my view though.

GW's rules are working exactly as intended.

That intention is to make you go out and buy a whole new army every 6 months, preferably one as diametrically opposed to the old one as possible so that you're not cheapening out and stripping paint off things when you could be buying all new ones.

That doesn't necessarily make it bad. It's vibrant and refreshing itself, and encourages different meta-games.... So long as you recognise that you don't HAVE to play super competitive S-Rank only lists only and be exploited twice per year.

True, it doesn't automatically make it bad, but it's certainly not automatically good either. You're not wrong that it's working exactly as intended, but I suspect that it's not working that way by design, it's working that way 'cause the rules team are a bunch of muppets and that by releasing hot garbage in the guise of an army book (see: SW) they effectively force people to buy a new army if they want to continue to play. On the other hand, by releasing the new OP hotness, they also strongly encourage players to buy easy wins for a while.

...That is the more worrying concern. That Hanlon's Razor doesn't apply, and GW is doing exactly what it means to.
...But that doesn't explain Space Wolves. Or on-release T'au...Or a whole host of things.

Why was Wake the Dead...The way it was?


But let's say GW does release something broken by accident...
Don't we, the consumers, know that GW will just nerf it? Why buy anything until like, a month after release?

The primaris release tells me that either GW is far, far craftier than I will ever give them credit for (releasing a marine replacement but making them bad to mitigate the backlash about replacing marines) or that they couldn't design their way out of a paper bag. Everything I have seen tells me it's the later.

The only thing I can think of is either that you're right and they really are just bad at writing rules, which is why they can only do stupidly overpowered or nothing....

...Or, in line with a discussion we had a few weeks ago, GW doesn't plan a lot of it's releases. They have some big events that they want to succeed, like Space Marines being relaunched, so that stuff gets broken and made OP about once per year to guarantee that people buy it.

Everything else that comes out in the other 11 months is just... stuff. They have a studio making models as they see fit and then throw together just enough rules to make them kind-of work, but it doesn't need to be incredibly successful, it just needs to make it's production cost back (hence why GW so often under-manufactures new releases) and to keep collectors on the hook until they *are* ready to reel them in as the Next Big Thing™.

It's cynical, but... it seems to be accurate, so far.

As above, see the primaris release. If they ever wanted something to be successful, it would have been Sigmarines, but they flubbed that release so hard I'm fairly sure that there's a physics department still analysing just how something can be so dense.

Actually. I take it back.

+1 Damage to Vehicles with Heavy weapons isn't anything when you're dealing with Iron Hands, and it barely helps vs. Knights.
Wake me up when 'Fists don't take the -1 to hit coming out of a Drop Pod (like Iron Hands).
Wake me up when 'Fists find a way around AoE 'Half Damage', -1 Damage, Ignore Wounds, counting as double wounds, and healing 9 Wounds per turn.

EDIT:
Also, turns out, you can no longer use interrupt Stratagems vs. units that come out of a Drop Pod. Seems like that's another rule GW went back on. Making Drop Pods, even stronger, especially on Turn 1...With Heavy weapons. Like, if there was a Chapter that could do that.

+1 damage to Vee's vs IH is better on phat damage stuff while against IK, it's better on plinkers like a heavy bolter. Unless my calcs are off a fair bit, IF heavy bolters are ~78% of the damage output of a lascannon against IK, which is actually pretty decent. IF heavy bolters are also ~233% the damage of a regular heavy bolter vs knights, which means you can still load up on some anti infantry pewpew and barely even notice when someone puts a big stompy robbit on the field.

Shame melee still isn't great, 'cause that's basically the answer to IH from what I can tell so far as I watched Guard (with octoblade) plus non-jetbike custodes (with a Telemon though) try to outshoot an IH list and it went about as well as you'd imagine until they charged in on T4, at which point the game suddenly got a lot closer.

[Destro_Yersul]

Maybe it was because I didn't know anyone who played Eldar. The guys I was regularly up against back in 4th had... IG, Tau, Black Legion, DEldar, and Necrons. For me, 4th was a lot of fun, and the change to 5th was one of the reasons I stopped playing back then.

[Manticoran]

Maybe it was because I didn't know anyone who played Eldar. The guys I was regularly up against back in 4th had... IG, Tau, Black Legion, DEldar, and Necrons. For me, 4th was a lot of fun, and the change to 5th was one of the reasons I stopped playing back then.

Yeah, my group was uh... Nids (me), guard, smurfs, dark eldar, crons, and a chaos player. All of us were pretty budget limited, so we pretty much just had our armies and played with them, and they were pretty balanced against each other because when it wasn't we'd change wargear or whatever to be less good so it was a closer game. Also we'd do things like have epic character duels and stuff rather than actually playing the game.

I have no honest idea how good 4th was as a real game, but as a narrative "everyone has wargear options to be anything and we're gonna make stories with our minis" adventure thing it was awesome.

[Meatgrinder]

Shame melee still isn't great,

*WHITE SCARS/RAVEN GUARD/CATACHANS/GENESTEALERS/KHORNE would like to know your location*

[Blackhawk748]

I remember 4th being a fun time...But that's almost definitely nostalgia goggles.

In reality, it was Khorne Berzerker Rhino Rush time with Howling Banshees coming out of Falcons. Consolidating into the next unit, into the next unit, into the next unit. Bad times.

Or you were Tau with enough guns. 4th was ok with specific issues, I don't think assaulting from every vehicle was the actual problem, it was probably the consolidation.

[Turalisj]

*WHITE SCARS/RAVEN GUARD/CATACHANS/GENESTEALERS/KHORNE would like to know your location*

Sure, just call 1-800-overwatch, dial extension fall back.

[LansXero]

Sure, just call 1-800-overwatch, dial extension fall back.

Any real melee army has a way to ignore Overwatch. Cant fall back if you're dead.

[Drasius]

*WHITE SCARS/RAVEN GUARD/CATACHANS/GENESTEALERS/KHORNE would like to know your location*

White Scars doctrine starts after the game is decided, Raven Guard have to give up their chapter tactics once they get close enough to melee, outside of smash captains, there's not a huge amount of melee units available to Imperials.

GSC can roll the dice on turning up inside reliable charge range, and can clear screens and sometimes even larger unit with their copious amounts of flamers. At the mercy of the dice for how they turn up though, but still a better melee army than most to be sure.

Khorne is great ... if it can survive getting to assault, since it has no fancy tricks that I'm aware of and getting shot off the board or being blasted into combat ineffectiveness is easier than ever these days.

Catachan is an afterthought because shooting>ranged and the time when str 4 guard mattered is long past.

Anything that can be done with melee can be done better with pewpew (outside of a few specific examples like a smash captain).

[LeSwordfish]

Maybe it was because I didn't know anyone who played Eldar. The guys I was regularly up against back in 4th had... IG, Tau, Black Legion, DEldar, and Necrons. For me, 4th was a lot of fun, and the change to 5th was one of the reasons I stopped playing back then.

Yeah I mean, sounds like the problems would mostly be solved if you played against nice people

[hamishspence]

I remember 4th being a fun time...But that's almost definitely nostalgia goggles.

In reality, it was Khorne Berzerker Rhino Rush time with Howling Banshees coming out of Falcons. Consolidating into the next unit, into the next unit, into the next unit. Bad times.

I thought being able to fight multiple assaults in the same turn was a 3e thing, which ended with the introduction of the Trial Assault Rules?

[The Patterner]

I could see it being acceptable (still OP, but acceptable), if Devastator Doctrine lasted a single turn. But it lasts all game, and there is no reason to ever leave it if you've built your army around it.

Alternatively, if Devastator Doctrine was the one you got at turn 3.

It just hit me that the doctrines would be more internally balanced if the signature doctrine for each faction could be the starting doctrine. So Raven guard starts with tactical, White scars with assault doctrine etc.

Of cource that would make most marines better against everyone, but at least it'd get rid of (some of) the imbalance between the different marine types.

[Cheesegear]

+1 damage to Vee's vs IH is better on phat damage stuff while against IK, it's better on plinkers like a heavy bolter.

Did you factor in that Iron Hands take half Damage minus 1? Then Ignore Wounds? So random Damage weapons vs. Iron Hands are basically worthless?
Rather than +1 Damage, I would much rather re-roll Damage. However, I'm also well aware that random damage Heavy weapons are about...Two?

Unless my calcs are off a fair bit, IF heavy bolters are ~78% of the damage output of a lascannon against IK, which is actually pretty decent.

It's not so much the weapon that's important, but, who, or what, can take them. Where are Imperial Fists getting their Heavy Bolters? Devastators and Centurions? Where else? Is that it? Yes. That's it. All the other S5, AP-1 weapons are found on Vehicles and Thunderfire Cannons. And at point, you're just playing yellow Iron Hands, except worse.

Lysander is almost guaranteed to be terrible, and Tor Garadon isn't good ("We love Bolt weapons so much we gave our named Character a Grav-Gun."). That makes it Successor time. Master Artisans and Stealthy? Probably.

I can't pass judgement on +1 Damage with Heavy weapons vs. Vehicles only - especially before the book is even out - because it doesn't feel like it matters. Not next to Iron Hands. Like, there's a Stratagem or Relic that says "Heavy weapons do double Damage." We'll get somewhere.

[Avaris]

Yeah I mean, sounds like the problems would mostly be solved if you played against nice people

The problem is that GW designers are gamers that play with ‘nice people’. They have a massive blind spot for what happens when a force is maximised around a theme. Taking the Iron Hands example, it is broken when you maximise a force around what it is good at, whereas I’d wager playtesting featured a much more ‘balanced’ list, which wasn’t so heavy on vehicles and extra ways to make them resilient. This may have been subconscious, but it has bad effects on a certain type of meta.

In other news, I now have the Sisters of Silence WD, with their rules basically being a reprint of the index. SoS with boltguns now get to snipe psyker characters, which I don’t think they could before. No new stratagems or anything though. Also, Inquisition next month, which I suspect will be a similar story.

[Forum Explorer]

The problem is that GW designers are gamers that play with ‘nice people’. They have a massive blind spot for what happens when a force is maximised around a theme. Taking the Iron Hands example, it is broken when you maximise a force around what it is good at, whereas I’d wager playtesting featured a much more ‘balanced’ list, which wasn’t so heavy on vehicles and extra ways to make them resilient. This may have been subconscious, but it has bad effects on a certain type of meta.

In other news, I now have the Sisters of Silence WD, with their rules basically being a reprint of the index. SoS with boltguns now get to snipe psyker characters, which I don’t think they could before. No new stratagems or anything though. Also, Inquisition next month, which I suspect will be a similar story.

I believe that. I remember watching a Thousand Sons vs Space Wolves a long time ago, and the Thousand Son army list was basically garbage. (IE, 0 Tzaangars, Scarab Occult Terminators, ect.)

So it's not even they are playing 'balanced' lists. They are playing thematic lists which is pretty rare to be incredibly strong.

[Drasius]

Did you factor in that Iron Hands take half Damage minus 1? Then Ignore Wounds? So random Damage weapons vs. Iron Hands are basically worthless?
Rather than +1 Damage, I would much rather re-roll Damage. However, I'm also well aware that random damage Heavy weapons are about...Two?

There's only 2 weapons for anti tank in my book and that's a lascannon or your favourite flavour of melta, and even then, the melta has conditions attached. Maybe that's what's colouring my judgement since halving a d6 and then applying FNP will still tend to get you something more than chip damage. For a Fist, that means Las/melta are 4.5 average and melta, if in half range, is ~5.5. Even against a IH meta-slave, that's still going to leave a mark. If they pop the half damage strat, throw the remainder of your firepower at their other Vee's

On the other hand, while moving a Heavy Bolter from D1 to D2 and then going straight back to D1 against IH is pointless, doubling their damage against anything else certainly doesn't hurt, and because 8th's to-wound chart is stupid, str 5 matters a lot less than it used to against high T targets.

It's not so much the weapon that's important, but, who, or what, can take them. Where are Imperial Fists getting their Heavy Bolters? Devastators and Centurions? Where else? Is that it? Yes. That's it. All the other S5, AP-1 weapons are found on Vehicles and Thunderfire Cannons. And at point, you're just playing yellow Iron Hands, except worse.

Lysander is almost guaranteed to be terrible, and Tor Garadon isn't good ("We love Bolt weapons so much we gave our named Character a Grav-Gun."). That makes it Successor time. Master Artisans and Stealthy? Probably.

I can't pass judgement on +1 Damage with Heavy weapons vs. Vehicles only - especially before the book is even out - because it doesn't feel like it matters. Not next to Iron Hands. Like, there's a Stratagem or Relic that says "Heavy weapons do double Damage." We'll get somewhere.

Scouts can have a heavy per, there's a multitude available in HS as mentioned, Servitors are cheap Brigade filler for the elite slot (though I seem to recall them not getting chapter tactics, please correct me if I'm wrong), Technically dreads can bring 'em, but I've only ever seen that option once in all my time playing, attack bikes and land speeders are more good brigade filler for FA and I know you personally have infinity Razorbacks, all of which can have heavy bolters.

Again, we come to the pointy part - if you're not the best, then you're the worst. Against any other army with Vee's bar IH, IF are going to be monstrous and judging by how often I still see knights souped into lists, that's not going to be uncommon any time soon. Double gatling renegade knights still pepper chaos lists, Russes are still common as well as octobaldes to a lesser degree, eldar still run prisms and planes, DE boats are a thing, Chaos AV12 wall infernal machines is a thing, Tau Vee's are apparently still a thing.

We'll see how it plays out, but IF certainly aren't looking like they'll be hard done by at all in the near future.

[Cheesegear]

We'll see how it plays out, but IF certainly aren't looking like they'll be hard done by at all in the near future.

So far, Imperial Fists might be the 'third best' option. Like, you want to play a good army, but you want to keep your friends afterwards. A lot like they were in 7th, really.

[Avaris]

8th's to-wound chart is stupid, str 5 matters a lot less than it used to against high T targets.

I’m curious about this: 8th’s to wound ‘chart’ is a simple formula and easy to remember, whereas the old one had some oddities iirc. What makes the new system bad, how would you improve it?

[Drasius]

I’m curious about this: 8th’s to wound ‘chart’ is a simple formula and easy to remember, whereas the old one had some oddities iirc. What makes the new system bad, how would you improve it?

What makes it bad is that there's even less differentiation between weapons. Heavy bolters have nothing over a bolt rifle against T3, T6 or T7 other than number of shots. There's little difference between a heavy bolter and an autocannon against T8. Against most things with an invulnerable, there's not much difference between a plasma gun and a heavy bolter. Lasgun's wounding T8 on 6's while autocannons are only wounding on 5's. Instead of feeling like there's a curve, it just feels like there's not much difference in any of the guns until you get to the extremes.

The fact that low str stuff can wound high T things at all is a seperate bugbear, but it ties in with your follow up - either a move to a more expanded system (personally I think a d10 system would be far more suited to the extreme range of models that share a battlefield these days where Grots vs Imperial Knights often share the field) or if you wanted to keep it simple, there was nothing wrong with the same old wound chart we had for decades. It was also a simple formula and easy to remember. The d10 system would also help to alleviate the wild swings between effectively useless (5+) and nigh certainty (2+, often with a source of rr1's) while still allowing for enough rng that you can't be sure enough of anything to make too concrete a battleplan around any given combo winning the game without opponent interaction.