Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

[Wraith]

As above, see the primaris release. If they ever wanted something to be successful, it would have been Sigmarines, but they flubbed that release so hard I'm fairly sure that there's a physics department still analysing just how something can be so dense.

Y'know, I'm still not entirely convinced that GW want AoS to be a success... The story was that they were just about ready to call time on their Fantasy lines after WHFB tanked, and their make-or-break roll of the dice with AoS was a huge success that they never expected, or really even intended.

It kind of shows in their release schedule. 4 or 5 types of Sigmarines, Undead have been released several times, two new races (two and a half, if you count Ossiarchs as Tomb Kings v.2), but no Lizardmen, no High elves, no 'Empire', no real development of the other Order or Destruction factions until 4 years after release.... They either REALLY like selling Stormcasts, or that they don't know what else to do and are releasing clumps of stuff as/when inspiration strikes on a whim and hoping for the best.

40k kind of feels the same in terms of execution, if not in intent. The Indomnitus Crusade was first mentioned in July 2017, and by October 2019 they're still just about getting around to revealing the new Primaris units which have allegedly been in the lore since then. "Drip feeding" to maintain interest is one thing, but spreading out a "new army" over more than 2 years feels like no one has planned anything and they're chucking stuff out as and when it's fit to sell.

[Avaris]

What makes it bad is that there's even less differentiation between weapons. Heavy bolters have nothing over a bolt rifle against T3, T6 or T7 other than number of shots. There's little difference between a heavy bolter and an autocannon against T8. Against most things with an invulnerable, there's not much difference between a plasma gun and a heavy bolter. Lasgun's wounding T8 on 6's while autocannons are only wounding on 5's. Instead of feeling like there's a curve, it just feels like there's not much difference in any of the guns until you get to the extremes.

The fact that low str stuff can wound high T things at all is a seperate bugbear, but it ties in with your follow up - either a move to a more expanded system (personally I think a d10 system would be far more suited to the extreme range of models that share a battlefield these days where Grots vs Imperial Knights often share the field) or if you wanted to keep it simple, there was nothing wrong with the same old wound chart we had for decades. It was also a simple formula and easy to remember. The d10 system would also help to alleviate the wild swings between effectively useless (5+) and nigh certainty (2+, often with a source of rr1's) while still allowing for enough rng that you can't be sure enough of anything to make too concrete a battleplan around any given combo winning the game without opponent interaction.

Good critique, and I think I agree. More differentiation between weapons would definitely be an improvement: it’s also the big thing I was disappointed in for Apocalypse.

If wish listing, I’d probably have different weapons use different dice, but that would be a major rework to get something useable.

[Drasius]

Y'know, I'm still not entirely convinced that GW want AoS to be a success... The story was that they were just about ready to call time on their Fantasy lines after WHFB tanked, and their make-or-break roll of the dice with AoS was a huge success that they never expected, or really even intended.

It kind of shows in their release schedule. 4 or 5 types of Sigmarines, Undead have been released several times, two new races (two and a half, if you count Ossiarchs as Tomb Kings v.2), but no Lizardmen, no High elves, no 'Empire', no real development of the other Order or Destruction factions until 4 years after release.... They either REALLY like selling Stormcasts, or that they don't know what else to do and are releasing clumps of stuff as/when inspiration strikes on a whim and hoping for the best.

40k kind of feels the same in terms of execution, if not in intent. The Indomnitus Crusade was first mentioned in July 2017, and by October 2019 they're still just about getting around to revealing the new Primaris units which have allegedly been in the lore since then. "Drip feeding" to maintain interest is one thing, but spreading out a "new army" over more than 2 years feels like no one has planned anything and they're chucking stuff out as and when it's fit to sell.

I actually meant Sigmarines as a reference to Primaris, since to me, they look like Stormcast (plus the odd bit of Tau in the jump troops and their plasma).

Ya know, I think I've finally put my finger on what I don't like about most primaris marines - they're marines that've been through google translate one too many times. Marines --> Stormcast --> Primaris. It's not that I don't like Primaris, it's that they don't look visually in-line with the original marine aesthetic, and that's what it is - the extended similarities to Stormcast, who in turn were heavily based on marines.

But yeah, if there was any 40k release that GW would have been hoping to win over grognards with rules, it would have been the total faction revamp of marines with the primaris release. Since they totally ****ed it up, now they're stuck in an awkward place where their plans for the next [x] years of marine releases are in a bit of a shambles because they've managed to incite a riot in a rather large portion of their main consumer base, and if they go ahead with squatting marines, they're going to have a similar exodus that WHFB had in the AoS switch, but without the new shiny to bring in new blood and no good will to gain with a "New GW" rebranding, and so far, much like AOS in the first few years, have totally dropped the ball on providing fluff for the new setting/timeline.

[Corsair14]

I played against IF using the new doctrine abilities and tactics this weekend just to try it out. He fielded a mix of units just to try things out. Two contemptors with twin twin heavy bolters, 6 Centurions with heavy bolters and hurricane bolters and he used the Siege Cohort along with the chaplain with the +1 to hit litany plus some other stuff that didn't matter since I either killed it before it fired or it just didn't do anything out of the ordinary(like a tac squad firing a flak missile killing a plane kind of thing). He had a 6 man aggressor squad but I wiped it with 2 meltagun command squads and an officer before it had a chance to literally do anything.

I was fielding a mid range IG army so most of my stuff unfortunately had to get inside his range to fire with any real effect. Neither of us were going all out WAAC style or being cut throat with playing.

Observations: Centurions in this setup up, properly buffed by a chapter master and chaplain(both of whom are mainstays now) are insane. They really don't care about -1 to hit and are rerolling misses. I was losing two flyers a turn to them. The Contemptors were just nasty. They didn't get the siege cohort bonus of MWs like the Centurions had but were still just blasting things apart with flipping heavy bolters of all things with some bonus cyclone launchers for good measure. He did the math and figured out 3 Centurions might not kill a Knight a turn but would cripple it pretty bad and I would be scared to charge that blob with anything(I wasn't going to in my army). I only won the game due to an Open War instawin condition he would not have been able to get across the board to capture as I was down to a few squads here and there and he would have out ranged me by that point. The IF's ability to spam the cheapest heavy weapon and still be as effective and efficient as other more expensive weapons is going to rocket them up in rankings. IF doesn't care about IH abilities since most of their weapons are 1 or 2w weapons anyway.

It will be interesting to see if the vigilus formations like the siege cohort will continue to be legal for use. It is devastating right now.

[LCP]

It kind of shows in their release schedule. 4 or 5 types of Sigmarines, Undead have been released several times, two new races (two and a half, if you count Ossiarchs as Tomb Kings v.2), but no Lizardmen, no High elves, no 'Empire', no real development of the other Order or Destruction factions until 4 years after release.... They either REALLY like selling Stormcasts, or that they don't know what else to do and are releasing clumps of stuff as/when inspiration strikes on a whim and hoping for the best.

Hot take: with no overriding creative vision, they're just incrementally building a setting through A/B testing. They will keep churning out shiny new factions indefinitely and the ones that don't sell well will be quietly retired just like the WFB factions.

[Cheesegear]

He did the math and figured out 3 Centurions might not kill a Knight a turn but would cripple it pretty bad

5 Bolt-Centurions and a Chaplain (no Captain or Lieutenant) will kill a Knight in one turn...If it's the closest model. That's the trick with dealing with the Chaplain's buff. He only gives +1 to wound against the closest enemy unit. This is pretty easily halted dead in its tracks by slotting in Guardsmen in front of your Knights. The other thing to remember is that Centurions with Heavy Bolters-and-not-Lascannons, only have a 36" range. A Knight Crusader has plenty of range - and movement - to stay out of range for at least a turn, and then move in for the kill.

I was allowed to use my Centurions once, because my opponent didn't quite understand what they did. After my opponent knew what they did, and word got around, Centurions went into a dumpster fire because it's only one unit, and nothing else actually does anything, because turns out spamming your army with single Damage weapons can't actually hurt anything that actually matters.

Compare one unit of Centurions (x5) with a Chaplain - ...~450 Points - to three Stormhawks (specifically, Iron Hands ones), and you'll be pretty sad.

IF doesn't care about IH abilities since most of their weapons are 1 or 2w weapons anyway.

Yes they do. +1 Damage on a 1 Damage weapon is negated by 'Half Damage', and then Iron Hands have several Vehicle defensive buffs on top of that.
Dealing with triple Iron Hands Redemptors is no joke. The only reason my guy does that, is because he can't afford triple Repulsors, but he can afford ETB Redemptors.

It will be interesting to see if the vigilus formations like the siege cohort will continue to be legal for use. It is devastating right now.

It'd be real cool of GW to invalidate a book less than a year after its release.

But yeah, if there was any 40k release that GW would have been hoping to win over grognards with rules, it would have been the total faction revamp of marines with the primaris release. Since they totally ****ed it up, now they're stuck in an awkward place where their plans for the next [x] years of marine releases are in a bit of a shambles because they've managed to incite a riot in a rather large portion of their main consumer base...

I think you're behind the ball. Primaris Marines are killing it. Wraith has it basically right; GW releases it terrible, then buffs it later 'because they have to', of course. The only sticking point with Primaris Marines at this stage is that Intercessors aren't good. And since Intercessors are Troops, you basically have to take them, but people don't want them. This is solved next week when Infiltrators/Incursors are finally released and all-Primaris Marine armies become legit - especially Iron Hands and Ultramarines.

Once Infiltrators/Incursors come out, anyone complaining that Primaris Marines aren't good, had better be playing Blood Angels or Space Wolves...Or Imperial Fists.

There's not a lot of old!Marine units you still want to play.

[druid91]

Y'know, I'm still not entirely convinced that GW want AoS to be a success... The story was that they were just about ready to call time on their Fantasy lines after WHFB tanked, and their make-or-break roll of the dice with AoS was a huge success that they never expected, or really even intended.

It kind of shows in their release schedule. 4 or 5 types of Sigmarines, Undead have been released several times, two new races (two and a half, if you count Ossiarchs as Tomb Kings v.2), but no Lizardmen, no High elves, no 'Empire', no real development of the other Order or Destruction factions until 4 years after release.... They either REALLY like selling Stormcasts, or that they don't know what else to do and are releasing clumps of stuff as/when inspiration strikes on a whim and hoping for the best.

40k kind of feels the same in terms of execution, if not in intent. The Indomnitus Crusade was first mentioned in July 2017, and by October 2019 they're still just about getting around to revealing the new Primaris units which have allegedly been in the lore since then. "Drip feeding" to maintain interest is one thing, but spreading out a "new army" over more than 2 years feels like no one has planned anything and they're chucking stuff out as and when it's fit to sell.

I mean to be entirely fair, from what I understand of AoS lore, it's kind of surprising we have factions that aren't Sigmarines, Undead, and Chaos.

Even Cities of Sigmar feels like 'The Great Big Book of We have No ****ing Clue How to Implement these in our new lore.'

[Wraith]

Hot take: with no overriding creative vision, they're just incrementally building a setting through A/B testing. They will keep churning out shiny new factions indefinitely and the ones that don't sell well will be quietly retired just like the WFB factions.

You're probably about right. I think it unlikely that they'll ever kill off a faction again though, not without significant shifts in the market first. The only reason they got away with Squatting Bretonnians and Tomb Kings was because the game was already near death and even then, the few players left were very bitter about it - there would be rioting if they tried it in 40k, GW's biggest game at what is arguably it's peak.

I could imagine them condensing factions - there's very little reason as to why SoB, Inquisition and SoS needs to be 3 separate codices for example - but not removing them entirely. If 40k ever reaches the point that WHFB did, then there's no point in worrying about it because GW are already out of business.

I mean to be entirely fair, from what I understand of AoS lore, it's kind of surprising we have factions that aren't Sigmarines, Undead, and Chaos.

Even Cities of Sigmar feels like 'The Great Big Book of We have No ****ing Clue How to Implement these in our new lore.'

As I remember it, there's "Chaos", "Undead", "Orcs, Goblins and Ogres" and "Everyone Else". They've somehow justified Bretonnian Knights being on the 'same side' as Dark Elves, who in turn are content to fight along side two different types of Dwarf and it's just.... weird.

Why they didn't do more with the nine elementally themed realms, I don't know.
Why not have a Realm of Fire with a mixture of races including Fyreslayers, Fire Mages and Empire Flamecannons? Or a Realm of Beasts with Sylvaneth Eagles and Beastclaw Raiders? All revolving around the Dark magic/Realm of Chaos where Archaon hangs out? Then you could have factions based around combining different races (a "Realm of Fire" army) or singular races (a "Sylvaneth army" with units from Beasts, Life, and... let's say, Shadows?), AND you could have releases for multiple races every time you brought out a new codex, AND the unifying themes make sense in the lore.....

I'm wishlisting I know, but it seems so much easier to plan and write for, than waiting 4 years for a new Seraphon book and then it possibly just not being any good when it gets here.

[Drasius]

I think you're behind the ball. Primaris Marines are killing it. Wraith has it basically right; GW releases it terrible, then buffs it later 'because they have to', of course. The only sticking point with Primaris Marines at this stage is that Intercessors aren't good. And since Intercessors are Troops, you basically have to take them, but people don't want them. This is solved next week when Infiltrators/Incursors are finally released and all-Primaris Marine armies become legit - especially Iron Hands and Ultramarines.

Once Infiltrators/Incursors come out, anyone complaining that Primaris Marines aren't good, had better be playing Blood Angels or Space Wolves...Or Imperial Fists.

There's not a lot of old!Marine units you still want to play.

I probably am, but first impressions matter, and Primaris were terrible for a long time. Sure, now they're not terrible, but their acceptance (or not) by many was already determined on release and now they're going to have to keep old marines unsquatted for far longer than I'd wager they originally planned on. I don't think it's just a location thing either, while my local GW is generally on the extreme ends of the bell curve for quite a few things, Primaris were generally not terribly well acccepted by anyone but the newer players and the only thing that anyone bought for ages were Hellblasters, and even that was grudgingly. That has generally stuck, with only two people buying non-hellblaster units while everyone else just shelved their marines entirely. Even with the resurgence of marines post-supplements, those people who ditched their marines still haven't put them back on the table. It will be interesting to see if that continues as a long term trend, even for myself, since I was strongly thinking about finally painting up my marines after I finish my knights (which, if I keep my current pace, should be in about 6 weeks).

[Cheesegear]

Why they didn't do more with the nine elementally themed realms, I don't know.

Malign Portents...Tries?
But yeah, I would very much like to see 'Armies of the Realms', but, it's more like each Realm has a 'good guy' and a 'bad guy' Faction, and they'll never, ever get along. If Nagash decided that he wanted to raze Ghur (Beasts), the Deepkin and Privateers* would still not get along with Ogors to face the common enemy because that's crazy.

*Something really insulting was the fact that Cities of Sigmar are only located in two Realms, despite Humans, Duardin and Aelves occupying space in every single Realm simply because of the way Humans, Duardin and Aelves have been... Well... Free, dispossessed, exiled and wandering. Cities of Sigmar would really benefit from 'Every unit in this 'Tome is a Mercenary, if your army is made up entirely units from this book...Bonus.'

[LCP]

You're probably about right. I think it unlikely that they'll ever kill off a faction again though, not without significant shifts in the market first. The only reason they got away with Squatting Bretonnians and Tomb Kings was because the game was already near death and even then, the few players left were very bitter about it - there would be rioting if they tried it in 40k, GW's biggest game at what is arguably it's peak.

They're still currently dropping old miniatures for much more popular factions than Brets and TK out of the rules each time they re-release books. I reckon that's what will happen to the not-so-successful AoS native factions too - there will not be a sudden announcement that they are being squatted, they will just be pared down to their best-selling kits by successive rules updates, and when that number of kits gets low enough they will get rolled into some faction-of-factions for leftover miniatures.

[Blackhawk748]

Hot take: with no overriding creative vision, they're just incrementally building a setting through A/B testing. They will keep churning out shiny new factions indefinitely and the ones that don't sell well will be quietly retired just like the WFB factions.

My inner World Builder is shrieking at an unbelievable level at the thought of this. That is NOT how you do world-building.

[Avaris]

My inner World Builder is shrieking at an unbelievable level at the thought of this. That is NOT how you do world-building.

AoS started as a sandpit into which they could throw anything they came up with. There was minimal world building at first, as they decided they didn’t need it. As I frequently say, GW is led by the minatures design, so they made a world in which anything goes that would give the absolute freedom to design whatever models they wanted without the need for coherency. AoS the game was intended simply as a thing to do with the models, rather than the reason for their existence. I’m not 100% sure, but I seem to recall that for a while there were no army books at all, with the books instead being at the Grand Alliance level. There was no vehicle for world building at all, as they didn’t want to do it.

This was a terrible idea, so what we’re seeing now is GW catching up to that. Lore states that the biggest faction by numbers of people is the Slaves to Darkness, all the disparate tribes across the realms that worship chaos in one form or another, but we never see them.

[Cheesegear]

I probably am, but first impressions matter, and Primaris were terrible for a long time. Sure, now they're not terrible, but their acceptance (or not) by many was already determined on release and now they're going to have to keep old marines unsquatted for far longer than I'd wager they originally planned on.

But see, how long do you hold that grudge? More importantly, do you keep that grudge so long that you fall behind?

There's a YouTube channel I watch. By his own admission, he hasn't played 40K seriously since 6th Ed. In his videos, he routinely brings up the fact that Orks and Tyranids are underpowered. The ****!? What planet is he even on? Orks and Tyranids are two of the strongest armies in the game providing that the ITC isn't soft-nerfing them out of existence with chess clocks. The guy is so bitter and so angry about 40K, that he very clearly has not kept up, and is simply wrong when he makes that point. He is also still under the impression that Guilliman is OP. He's Guilliman. He must be, right? Well, sure, if you still have the 8.1 Codex and never bought any Chapter Approveds, sure. For the rest of us, Guilliman has been nerfed three times since his release. The 8.2 Codex Supplement nerfed him so hard he's borderline useless. But sure, keep complaining that G-man is OP.

'AoS sucks'...What? There have been several expansions, numerous novels (a lot of them non-Stormcast, too!), two major rebalances to the game...
"Yeah, but they got rid of Tomb Kings and Bretonnia?"*
Who cares!? That was years ago. In that time, you've been butthurt so hard that nothing in AoS interests you because...I dunno. Something that happened years ago?

Now, I admit, AoS sucked for a long time. I was there. Then GW released Kharadons and I really couldn't care less that AoS sucked 'cause those models were exactly everything I ever wanted; Steampunk Dorfs playing Spelljammer. All's that has to happen now is that the rules have to be good to justify me spending so much money an-...Oh. Nevermind. Ah well, back to my regular Dorfs. ****. Gunlines got nerfed. Guess I'll hang out for a bit until something I like comes along...

Ta-da! Cities of Sigmar comes out and suddenly I'm back in after 12 months away. Sure. A year is a long time. But I knew it was never going to be forever because at some point, GW will give me something that I want, even if I don't ask for it (e.g; Kharadrons were something I didn't know I wanted until I saw them...I still want them...It's just that I can't justify having them).

Imperial Fists have sucked since 8th Ed. started and I don't think the Supplement is going to shoot them through the roof. But I can always play Deathwatch. I can always play Custodes. Guard Shadowswords wont go out of style for a while. Or I'll just strip my Marines and paint them a colour that isn't yellow...It'll hurt. But that's what's necessary if I actually want to compete in a game that I like.

But, if GW said that Tactical Marines were being discontinued in 2020? ...Fine. That death knell was tolled years ago. I've moved on. Know No Fear is the best box GW has ever produced. If you want to make Intercessors the new normal, I'm ready. I've been playing Scouts since 5th Ed., I'm ready. ****, Infiltrators/Incursors come out next week, and every single Imperial Fist player I even remotely pay attention to is salivating for Infiltrators, even after GW's backpedal on exploding 6s. If Tactical Squads got Squatted tomorrow, I would say good riddance. GW has both subtly and unsubtly prepared me for it. If Scouts got squatted tomorrow? That would be a slightly bigger issue since Elimintaors and Infiltrators are in different Roles, and are difficult to swap-in, swap-out because they don't cost equivalent points...But, even so...GW is preparing me for Scouts to go away, too. Not soon...But inevitably.

I was ready for it when the Doomsayers said [X] units missing!? from the new Codex (Spoiler alert; GW removed special characters to sell them back to us). And I'm still ready, now.

*EDIT:
Oh right. I keep forgetting that there are people who like one thing and one thing only. Sorry if you're one of those people.

[Wraith]

Malign Portents...Tries?
But yeah, I would very much like to see 'Armies of the Realms', but, it's more like each Realm has a 'good guy' and a 'bad guy' Faction, and they'll never, ever get along. If Nagash decided that he wanted to raze Ghur (Beasts), the Deepkin and Privateers* would still not get along with Ogors to face the common enemy because that's crazy.

In My Head™ the different realms are semi-sentient and have mind-controlling powers, which is why wildly contentious races would fight together. You'd also have Free Willed races, which is how you'd play single-race armies.

Say you wanted to play "Sylvaneth". You'd take Dryads from the Realm of Life, Eagles/Glade Guardians from Realm of Beasts and Waywatchers from... I dunno, Realm of Shadows, maybe? These units all have the <SYLVANETH> tag, so you can put them on a table together and there's your "Sylvaneth" army.

Alternatively, you can play a Realm of Fire army, with Duardin Fyreslayers, an Empire Flame-cannon and... I dunno, a High Elf Dragon or something. They are all in the Realm of Fire book because they have dedicated themselves to/been forcibly possessed by the Realm of Fire. Maybe they all have burning orbs for eyes, and their special unit is an Avatar of the "supreme spirit" that overlooks the Realm - Gotrek was it, I think? And Sigmar for Heavens, Archaon for Chaos, etc.

Get Sylvaneth-y bonuses' for playing a Sylvaneth army, or Realm of Fire-y bonuses/unique character for playing a Realm of Fire army, just like Chapter Tactics in 40k.
Have overlapping matrices for allies, if you like, or a M:tG style "colour wheel" where Fire and Metal units can be friends but Life and Death can't. I don't care for the details, but I'm sure that I can find a way to sell 9 different books to each player and have it make sense for them to want/need those 9 books...

They're still currently dropping old miniatures for much more popular factions than Brets and TK out of the rules each time they re-release books. I reckon that's what will happen to the not-so-successful AoS native factions too - there will not be a sudden announcement that they are being squatted, they will just be pared down to their best-selling kits by successive rules updates, and when that number of kits gets low enough they will get rolled into some faction-of-factions for leftover miniatures.

Hmm, maybe, eventually. And yet they're about to release the Free Cities book which specifically brings back a whole bunch of older models that they had otherwise gotten rid of.

I just don't get it. That stuff was gone and people had all-but forgotten about asking for it... So now GW have given them rules for the old models instead of making them buy all new stuff?
That's very unlike GW, especially if their end-game is to phase out poorly selling kits by... reintroducing a bunch of kits that many players still have from a decade ago that were pretty poor sellers even back then?

At least, I presume that's what is happening. I'd like to think we would have noticed if they were preparing to simultaneously relaunch all of Empire, Bretonnia and High Elves all in one go?

My inner World Builder is shrieking at an unbelievable level at the thought of this. That is NOT how you do world-building.

Your first mistake, as Avaris has said, is presuming that GW had any interest in building a world in the first place.

It more or less matches what I said above - GW didn't know or particularly expect if AoS was going to be a success, so they just threw out all their stuff in one go and hoped for the best. Some poor bastard could write a story about it later, if they really had to, but in the meantime; drown people in new shiny toys and let the hype do the work!

[LansXero]

I've moved on. Know No Fear is the best box GW has ever produced.

All aboard the 'in with new, out with the old' train that probably hovers because of course it does :D

[Cheesegear]

All aboard the 'in with new, out with the old' train that probably hovers because of course it does :D

As Wraith already brought up. It's a case of...Insidious selling?

GW: Well, we heard you. Intercessors are pretty bad, so we're bringing their cost down and adding in several Stratagems that make them playable. We're 'New GW' and we listen to our customers!
Consumers: ...Can you make it so that Tactical Marines have a Heavy-and-Special, or two Special weapons, in a 5-man squad?
GW: ...Not like that. We meant we only listen to you when it suits us.
Consumers: In that case, I'll take one Intercessors please.

You make it so Intercessors are worth having, and Tacticals are not. You don't hard ban or phase out Tacticals, because that would make you callous and cruel. You say 'Sure, you can have your Tacticals, but they're ****, and you're dumb for having them.' That way you make it look like the choice to buy Intercessors was the players' choice...But, the game was rigged from the start.

[Drasius]

But see, how long do you hold that grudge?

Literally forever? Have you really never met a 40k grognard?

More importantly, do you keep that grudge so long that you fall behind?

No, I'm just behind due to moving to a place with no 40k for a couple of years and coming back now and getting my armies ready for 8th. I should have my Knight ready for the table after this next swing at work and hopefully fully painted in another 6 weeks.

Speaking of, any suggested changes to said Knight list?

Spoiler: Double SHD

Show

Krast
468 - Crusader, Thermal Lance, Avenger, Ironstorm, Warlord, First Knight, Endless Fury
422 - Warden, Ironstorm
409 - Errant, Ironstorm

Terryn
352 - Gallant, Exalted Court - Landstrider, Heirloom - Sainted Ion
174 - Warglaive, Meltagun
174 - Warglaive, Meltagun

1999, 12 CP --> 10CP after buying Landstrider and a 2+ for the Gallant. Strongly considered Raven for Advance and fire at no penalty for the Warglaives, but it'd only be for the first round and hitting on 4's isn't thaaaaaaat bad that I'd want to give up the extra dice on advance/charge from Terryn.

There's a YouTube channel I watch. By his own admission, he hasn't played 40K seriously since 6th Ed. In his videos, he routinely brings up the fact that Orks and Tyranids are underpowered. The ****!? What planet is he even on? Orks and Tyranids are two of the strongest armies in the game providing that the ITC isn't soft-nerfing them out of existence with chess clocks. The guy is so bitter and so angry about 40K, that he very clearly has not kept up, and is simply wrong when he makes that point. He is also still under the impression that Guilliman is OP. He's Guilliman. He must be, right? Well, sure, if you still have the 8.1 Codex and never bought any Chapter Approveds, sure. For the rest of us, Guilliman has been nerfed three times since his release. The 8.2 Codex Supplement nerfed him so hard he's borderline useless. But sure, keep complaining that G-man is OP.

In fairness, could also be a meta thing. I feel that it's not super hard to build a sub-par Ork/'nid list by taking things you like instead of what is good.

'AoS sucks'...What? There have been several expansions, numerous novels (a lot of them non-Stormcast, too!), two major rebalances to the game...
"Yeah, but they got rid of Tomb Kings and Bretonnia?"*
Who cares!? That was years ago. In that time, you've been butthurt so hard that nothing in AoS interests you because...I dunno. Something that happened years ago?

Who cares? The people who played TK and Brets I guess. Imagine if GW squatted all the 21 flavours of marines from 40k (ya know, and didn't replace them with anything). While you play other armies, it's the one you're most heavily invested in and have spent quite a few years building an army around and having cool character do cool stuff in game, earning names and just generally being all out of bubblegum. I refuse to belive that you wouldn't care.

Personally, I was never much into WHFB, I think I only played 6 games with my skaven before the setting got replaced, so I don't care that much, but for people who were die hard bret or TK fans, it'd be harsh.

Now, I admit, AoS sucked for a long time. I was there. Then GW released Kharadons and I really couldn't care less that AoS sucked 'cause those models were exactly everything I ever wanted; Steampunk Dorfs playing Spelljammer. All's that has to happen now is that the rules have to be good to justify me spending so much money an-...Oh. Nevermind. Ah well, back to my regular Dorfs. ****. Gunlines got nerfed. Guess I'll hang out for a bit until something I like comes along...

Ta-da! Cities of Sigmar comes out and suddenly I'm back in after 12 months away. Sure. A year is a long time. But I knew it was never going to be forever because at some point, GW will give me something that I want, even if I don't ask for it (e.g; Kharadrons were something I didn't know I wanted until I saw them...I still want them...It's just that I can't justify having them).

If I was to start another AoS army, it would be Free Cities, they've got all the cool things I'd like to paint, even if some of them are bad.

Imperial Fists have sucked since 8th Ed. started and I don't think the Supplement is going to shoot them through the roof. But I can always play Deathwatch. I can always play Custodes. Guard Shadowswords wont go out of style for a while. Or I'll just strip my Marines and paint them a colour that isn't yellow...It'll hurt. But that's what's necessary if I actually want to compete in a game that I like.

But, if GW said that Tactical Marines were being discontinued in 2020? ...Fine. That death knell was tolled years ago. I've moved on. Know No Fear is the best box GW has ever produced. If you want to make Intercessors the new normal, I'm ready. I've been playing Scouts since 5th Ed., I'm ready. ****, Infiltrators/Incursors come out next week, and every single Imperial Fist player I even remotely pay attention to is salivating for Infiltrators, even after GW's backpedal on exploding 6s. If Tactical Squads got Squatted tomorrow, I would say good riddance. GW has both subtly and unsubtly prepared me for it. If Scouts got squatted tomorrow? That would be a slightly bigger issue since Elimintaors and Infiltrators are in different Roles, and are difficult to swap-in, swap-out because they don't cost equivalent points...But, even so...GW is preparing me for Scouts to go away, too. Not soon...But inevitably.

I was ready for it when the Doomsayers said [X] units missing!? from the new Codex (Spoiler alert; GW removed special characters to sell them back to us). And I'm still ready, now.

*EDIT:
Oh right. I keep forgetting that there are people who like one thing and one thing only. Sorry if you're one of those people.

I'm certainly not, I was going through my stuff earlier today looking for my old Renegade box with a pair of unbuilt knights in it as I had always planned to make a Crusader and a Gallant out of it, but had never gotten around to it. I have 7 packing boxes full of 40k stuff and more GW carry cases than I can shake a stick at. I have a Mech Iron Warriors army, an extensive Thousand Sons army, a Tz Daemons army, 5 Knights (plus the two unbuilt) and a pair of Warglaives, Mech Tau, Mech Sisters, Mech Marines. The last thing I need is another army, and yet I have eyed off a DE boat army for years and now that they're actually decent, it's getting more and more difficult to resist.

Doesn't mean that if GW took a huge dump on one of those armies that I would just shrug my shoulders, I'd be pretty damn angry and yeah, I'd probably hold a grudge, especially with this "new GW" facade they're putting on. It's got nothing to do with only liking one thing, it's got to do with having something you like taken away or changed to no longer resemble something you like and it being outside your control and with no explaination given as to why.

[Cheesegear]

Speaking of, any suggested changes to said Knight list?

Spoiler: Double SHD

Show

Krast
468 - Crusader, Thermal Lance, Avenger, Ironstorm, Warlord, First Knight, Endless Fury
422 - Warden, Ironstorm
409 - Errant, Ironstorm

Terryn
352 - Gallant, Exalted Court - Landstrider, Heirloom - Sainted Ion
174 - Warglaive, Meltagun
174 - Warglaive, Meltagun

1999, 12 CP --> 10CP after buying Landstrider and a 2+ for the Gallant. Strongly considered Raven for Advance and fire at no penalty for the Warglaives, but it'd only be for the first round and hitting on 4's isn't thaaaaaaat bad that I'd want to give up the extra dice on advance/charge from Terryn.

I mean...It's a Knight list. The only thing almost wrong with it, is the Knight Errant, because Knights Errant don't have Gatling Cannons or double Melee weapons with WS2+.

Who cares? The people who played TK and Brets I guess.

Like I said; For how long? And are you so mad that you never buy anything ever again? I just don't think I understand how boycotts work.
I just don't understand.

Doesn't mean that if GW took a huge dump on one of those armies that I would just shrug my shoulders, I'd be pretty damn angry and yeah, I'd probably hold a grudge...

At no point am I saying that you can't be mad...Remember when Guilliman was 400 Points!? I do! And I will never forget.

My point is, I guess... More... How do you stay mad forever? Is it worth it?

It's got nothing to do with only liking one thing, it's got to do with having something you like taken away or changed to no longer resemble something you like and it being outside your control and with no explaination given as to why...

Fair enough. I agree with this statement a lot, for a lot of things.
I started up Tomb Kings when people decided that they'd no longer play against my Dwarf Gunline that didn't let them have a magic phase. I remember my Tomb Kings being dusted from the setting. I suppose, for me, I just can't hold a grudge like that, that long, over toy soldiers.

The thing that's killing me, now. Is GW's pricing structure.

[Drasius]

I mean...It's a Knight list. The only thing almost wrong with it, is the Knight Errant, because Knights Errant don't have Gatling Cannons or double Melee weapons with WS2+.

Cheers for the critique. Yeah, the Errant is there 'cause I don't have another Warden. My first 4 were before the Warden was a thing, I grabbed a Warden and the Renegade box was meant to be a Crusader and a Gallant so I could have one of each but never got around to building the latter two since I wasn't going to get games with an all knight force outside of Apoc. Maybe I'll pick up another one (do I really need 8 knights though?) or pay the exorbitant price of a single avenger on ebay so have another Warden since they're all magnetised bar the original Warden.

Like I said; For how long? And are you so mad that you never buy anything ever again? I just don't think I understand how boycotts work.
I just don't understand.

As long as it takes I guess, I dunno, I'm not/wasn't a TK or Bret player. I'll tell you right now however that I won't be buying any primaris outside of maybe some ... whatever the troops unit is 'cause everything else looks dumb. If that means I never play marines again, well, sucks to be me I guess. It's got nothing to do with boycotts, it's just that I don't buy stuff I don't like, no matter how meta defining it is.

Same sort of thing goes for my IW army that is utterly unplayable at this point, but there's no way to fix it without buying Abbadon and cultists, at which point, why would I not just buy Tzaangors for my Thousand Sons since it'll play out roughly the same, but better. Speaking of my 1kS, Again, my existing army is unplayable garbage, but since Tzaangors are cool models and it's not total fluff rape to have some sorcs and cannon fodder, I'm OK with adding a bunch of cool models to my already sizable TS force.

If I knew how the hell Mechanised Tau was meant to work, I'd probably do that too since I've got what might actually be a workable army already built and painted:

Spoiler: Mechanised Tau

Show

HQ
XV-85 Commander, Magnetised
Fireblade
Darkstrider

Troops
28x Breachers
10x Fire Warriors, 2x SMS turrets
[x] x still on sprue fire warriors/breachers

Elites
Riptide, Magnetised
6x Stealth Suits, 2x Fusion
6x Crisis, Magnetised

Fast Attack
2x Piranahs, Magnetised, plus gun drones
8x Marker Drones, 8x Gun Drones

Heavy Support
6x Hammerheads, 3x Rail, 3x Ion, but can build the others and all are magnetised, plus gun drones
3x Skyrays, SMS (no drones)
6x Broadsides, Magnetised

Transports
4x Devilfish, plus gun drones

My sisters are waiting for the new dex, though I hold out slim hope of them not being garbage and my daemons need to be organised as they're scattered to high heavens and back, but I doubt if they're useful as anything more than summoning or troops filler for my thousand sons.

At no point am I saying that you can't be mad...Remember when Guilliman was 400 Points!? I do! And I will never forget.

My point is, I guess... More... How do you stay mad forever? Is it worth it?

That's my secret Cheese, I'm always angry. This just gives me something to focus on. Just think of it as being part dwarf, it's a grudge, but a minor one for now. Anything they do that's good is recognised, but the grudge is still there until they fix it. Nerfing something into uselessness ala G-man is very different from removing him entirely (as per a bunch of index stuff effectively, and as we both know, eventually all the old marines).

As for if it's worth it, almost certainly not, but it's one of my (many) character flaws, and it's something I've learned to accept that I can't/won't change. Can't speak for others, but I'd strongly wager that it's not worth it for them either.

Fair enough. I agree with this statement a lot, for a lot of things.
I started up Tomb Kings when people decided that they'd no longer play against my Dwarf Gunline that didn't let them have a magic phase. I remember my Tomb Kings being dusted from the setting. I suppose, for me, I just can't hold a grudge like that, that long, over toy soldiers.

The thing that's killing me, now. Is GW's pricing structure.

Then you're not a real dwarf player if you can't hold a grudge /s

4 realz tho, I guess it depends on how much attachedment you had to your TK. If they were a sideline to your real army, then no, you won't care much 'cause your real army didn't get touched (and now you have it back in free cities). And what happened when you foudn you basically didn't have an AoS army to play? You stopped playing AoS. It's no different to anyone here, except they many players are more invested in their game of choice that having their favourite army taken away from them will cause them to give up the game too.

Edit: Forgot to ask - What is it about GW's pricing structure that is killing you? I haven't noticed any price hikes beyond paint pots going up a touch. Being an aussie, I would have thought you'd be nigh immune to price gouging, so it can't be a sudden annoyance over our premium pricing.

[Cheesegear]

As long as it takes I guess, I dunno, I'm not/wasn't a TK or Bret player. I'll tell you right now however that I won't be buying any primaris outside of maybe some ... whatever the troops unit is 'cause everything else looks dumb. If that means I never play marines again, well, sucks to be me I guess. It's got nothing to do with boycotts, it's just that I don't buy stuff I don't like, no matter how meta defining it is.

Well that's not what I'm talking about. If you don't like the models, fair enough. Don't buy 'em.

I'm talking about how certain people refuse to buy into AoS, despite several improvements to the game and solid fluff, they even like the models. 'But remember when GW blew up the Old World?', therefore, refuse to buy-in, no matter how good the game is. 'GW rooned my Tomb Kings, therefore never playing again.' ...What? Really? Even if the game is good, now?

My sisters are waiting for the new dex, though I hold out slim hope of them not being garbage and my daemons need to be organised as they're scattered to high heavens and back, but I doubt if they're useful as anything more than summoning or troops filler for my thousand sons.

...Daemons the best army in the game. 7 Point Troops that come stock with Invulnerable saves? Sign up, now!

That's my secret Cheese, I'm always angry.

And here I thought I was angry about stuff all the time.
I guess I'm angry for a couple of days, then I move on to something else to be angry about. I don't get harbouring smoldering hatred for the same thing for years.

As for if it's worth it, almost certainly not, but it's one of my (many) character flaws, and it's something I've learned to accept that I can't/won't change. Can't speak for others, but I'd strongly wager that it's not worth it for them either.

lol

Then you're not a real dwarf player if you can't hold a grudge /s

Welcome to AoS, Dorfs don't hold grudges anymore. Almost like it holds them back and keeps them stuck in the past.

And what happened when you foudn you basically didn't have an AoS army to play? You stopped playing AoS. It's no different to anyone here, except they many players are more invested in their game of choice that having their favourite army taken away from them will cause them to give up the game too.

Pretty much. But also there was no incentive for me to play anyway 'cause my AoS meta is basically dead. There's talk of trying to revive it during Christmas. But I have my doubts.

But, back to Marines...They sucked. For a long time. That's why I picked up Deathwatch. That's why I stripped a whole bunch of models and re-painted them. That's why I started hobby projects instead of playing games (which didn't last long, because playing games is always better than not playing games). And as we speak I'm building up my Guard army (dual Shadowswords hype!) because Imperial Fists have taken so ***-damn long to come out I've got nothing else to do except fill out Battalions. At some point I might even put Armigers back into my list.

...If I wasn't playing Marines, I'd be playing Tyranids... I think. Maybe Necrons in a mono-build. Either way, I'd be playing something, because I like playing the game.

Forgot to ask - What is it about GW's pricing structure that is killing you? I haven't noticed any price hikes beyond paint pots going up a touch.

Did you spot that new Primaris Characters coming out cost as much as a Codex?
Did you catch that Blood of the Phoenixcosts $390 and doesn't include the Phoenix Rising book - which costs as much as a Primaris Character?
Land Raiders are $110, Repulsors are $165.

There's no 'price hike' on old products. It's that you get gouged for new products.
...Something, something...Molds. Except we all know everything is designed in CAD in a drag-and-drop fashion, and making a sprue costs a few dollars, tops.

[Meatgrinder]

If I knew how the hell Mechanised Tau was meant to work, I'd probably do that too since I've got what might actually be a workable army already built and painted:

Spoiler: Mechanised Tau

Show

HQ
XV-85 Commander, Magnetised
Fireblade
Darkstrider

Troops
28x Breachers
10x Fire Warriors, 2x SMS turrets
[x] x still on sprue fire warriors/breachers

Elites
Riptide, Magnetised
6x Stealth Suits, 2x Fusion
6x Crisis, Magnetised

Fast Attack
2x Piranahs, Magnetised, plus gun drones
8x Marker Drones, 8x Gun Drones

Heavy Support
6x Hammerheads, 3x Rail, 3x Ion, but can build the others and all are magnetised, plus gun drones
3x Skyrays, SMS (no drones)
6x Broadsides, Magnetised

Transports
4x Devilfish, plus gun drones

I don't know a whole lot about mech tau, but supposedly they work pretty well. I think the strategy is to just spam as many smart missiles as you can.

My sisters are waiting for the new dex, though I hold out slim hope of them not being garbage and my daemons need to be organised as they're scattered to high heavens and back, but I doubt if they're useful as anything more than summoning or troops filler for my thousand sons.

Daemons are actually pretty good. Have you tried running the "Ahriman and two daemon princes behind screens of plaguebearers" list?

[Corsair14]

5 Bolt-Centurions and a Chaplain (no Captain or Lieutenant) will kill a Knight in one turn...If it's the closest model. That's the trick with dealing with the Chaplain's buff. He only gives +1 to wound against the closest enemy unit. This is pretty easily halted dead in its tracks by slotting in Guardsmen in front of your Knights. The other thing to remember is that Centurions with Heavy Bolters-and-not-Lascannons, only have a 36" range. A Knight Crusader has plenty of range - and movement - to stay out of range for at least a turn, and then move in for the kill.

I was allowed to use my Centurions once, because my opponent didn't quite understand what they did. After my opponent knew what they did, and word got around, Centurions went into a dumpster fire because it's only one unit, and nothing else actually does anything, because turns out spamming your army with single Damage weapons can't actually hurt anything that actually matters.

Compare one unit of Centurions (x5) with a Chaplain - ...~450 Points - to three Stormhawks (specifically, Iron Hands ones), and you'll be pretty sad.

Yes they do. +1 Damage on a 1 Damage weapon is negated by 'Half Damage', and then Iron Hands have several Vehicle defensive buffs on top of that.
Dealing with triple Iron Hands Redemptors is no joke. The only reason my guy does that, is because he can't afford triple Repulsors, but he can afford ETB Redemptors.


It'd be real cool of GW to invalidate a book less than a year after its release.

You are right, stay out of 36" inches and you are fine. My longest range weapon was the rocket pods under the wings of the Valkyries. Everything else was mostly 36" or less. All my lists aren't like this, I was playing a silly Tempestus list for S&G.

But that aside, no one is going to run the centurions without buff characters. In this case he used a chaplain which I think had the +1 damage trait, a chaptermaster captain with the eye from siege cohort allowing him to reroll 1s to wound as well as failed misses, IF adds 1 to wound vehicles, and seieg cohort does mortal wounds on vehicles on a 6+ to wound. 36 heavy bolter shots, very few missing, 7 or 8 bonus shots say 5 hitting. We will go with 36 hits. That's 12-15 mortal wounds plus whatever gets through the armor saves. He doesn't need to do more than 1D per wound.

[Drasius]

Well that's not what I'm talking about. If you don't like the models, fair enough. Don't buy 'em.

Yeah, but if GW has just squatted your main army, are you really going to be inclined to give them more money? If they suddenly decided Thousand Sons weren't a thing anymore, I would probably ragequit and sell everything GW I had, and I've never sold a single thing since I started.

I'm talking about how certain people refuse to buy into AoS, despite several improvements to the game and solid fluff, they even like the models. 'But remember when GW blew up the Old World?', therefore, refuse to buy-in, no matter how good the game is. 'GW rooned my Tomb Kings, therefore never playing again.' ...What? Really? Even if the game is good, now?

"The thing I like is no longer available, and I don't like the replacement" is a perfectly reasonable position. AoS plays nothing like WHFB, so if you liked WHFB, you won't automatically like its replacement. In fact, that's quite relevant, since while I don't play AoS, I really don't like 8th so far, and despite it being 40k, it plays almost nothing like 7th, which I liked the core mechanics of, just not the horrendous imbalance in power between the haves and the have-nots.

...Daemons the best army in the game. 7 Point Troops that come stock with Invulnerable saves? Sign up, now!

No stinky Nurgle scum allowed, besides, if I want 7ppm model units with a 5++ as troops, I've got Tzaangors.

Did you spot that new Primaris Characters coming out cost as much as a Codex?

No, because Primaris are dumb.

Did you catch that Blood of the Phoenixcosts $390 and doesn't include the Phoenix Rising book - which costs as much as a Primaris Character?

No, because it's for dirty old elves and I'm not a terrible person (I am, but not because I play eldar).

Land Raiders are $110, Repulsors are $165.

As above, primaris are dumb, so I didn't notice.

There's no 'price hike' on old products. It's that you get gouged for new products.
...Something, something...Molds. Except we all know everything is designed in CAD in a drag-and-drop fashion, and making a sprue costs a few dollars, tops.

They charge what they charge, I'd rather they hike the cost of new kits rather than hike the cost on everything. Hopefully it punishes the people chasing the meta more than it hurts the average player, at least that'd be a small win as far as I'm concerned.

[LCP]

"The thing I like is no longer available, and I don't like the replacement" is a perfectly reasonable position. AoS plays nothing like WHFB, so if you liked WHFB, you won't automatically like its replacement.

^This. It doesn't matter how many flavours of fantasy power rangers they add to the setting, or how much new fluff they write about how the Steadfast Hammerlads used the power of the Mystical Panjandrum to defend the Gloomtown Aethyrspyre, they're all playing the same game, which is not a game I want to play and nothing like the game it replaced. And the argument that the fluff was bad at release, but is good now, when structurally it's still entirely the same setting, is highly subjective. Like it doesn't how matter how intricately you design the icing of a cake, if I don't like marzipan and it's marzipan icing I'm not gonna eat it.

The "do you only like one thing" argument is also bizarre, because it acts as if the spectrum of things one can like is confined solely to GW's miniature range. My hobby life didn't stop when WFB ended, it just moved away from GW. GW don't have a right to my money; if they lose my trust and my interest, it's not an act of spite or grudge-holding to look elsewhere for entertainment. There's a whole planet's worth of things to do.

[Cheesegear]

Yeah, but if GW has just squatted your main army, are you really going to be inclined to give them more money? If they suddenly decided Thousand Sons weren't a thing anymore, I would probably ragequit and sell everything GW I had, and I've never sold a single thing since I started.

...Weird. I've sold heaps of stuff.
But from what you've said, it sounds like you have other choices than Thousand Sons... Daemons, Knights, other Chaos Marines.

If Thousand Sons were *ahem* dusted, you would rather quit the game than switch to another Faction that you already have - and thus must like, at least on some level?
That's what I don't get.

If you don't have another Faction 'cause all your money is sunk into a single Faction...Well, for me, it would depend on how long ago I started. I've seen some really, really ****ty store managers sell books and items knowing they were becoming obsolete within weeks. Grubs.

But a year goes past...Have you still not picked the hobby back up? Two years? Nothing GW releases in your chosen game you care about, 'cause you're still holding that grudge from when they dusted your Faction the other time?

It's very similar to what happens now. "If GW nerfs anything good, why buy anything at all? Just let me use proxies."
It comes from a very reasonable place. GW nerfs anything good. So why spend money on something you don't know will be good two months from now? Fair enough. Just hold on before you buy anything good. If you see it being constatntly praised and talked about, and sweeping major tournaments, maybe avoid it until the next major nerf cycle. Buy something else.

But not to buy anything, ever? GW could nerf anything, don't you understand? Therefore, I don't have to buy any models!
Don't really know how you got there.

"The thing I like is no longer available, and I don't like the replacement" is a perfectly reasonable position.

It sure is. I also understand "AoS is basically less-good 40K at this point, and I don't need to play the same game twice." I understand that. That's fine. That's why it's not what I'm talking about.

They charge what they charge, I'd rather they hike the cost of new kits rather than hike the cost on everything. Hopefully it punishes the people chasing the meta more than it hurts the average player, at least that'd be a small win as far as I'm concerned.

Then doesn't the game become pay to win? And isn't that a whole different problem?

[Wraith]

They charge what they charge, I'd rather they hike the cost of new kits rather than hike the cost on everything. Hopefully it punishes the people chasing the meta more than it hurts the average player, at least that'd be a small win as far as I'm concerned.

I see where you're coming from for the rest of your complaint, but this one I think I disagree quite strongly with. You're saying that you don't care if the new stuff gets price-hiked because you're not going to buy it. Fair enough - For me, Necrons could be $10 or $1000 per box, I don't want them anyway so it doesn't matter, right?

Wrong.

As 'new stuff' becomes increasingly expensive, GW are normalising expensive stuff. Land Raiders are €65 and Primaris Repulsors are €80, which is fine - just buy Land Raiders.... until you can't. One day they might be squatted along with the rest of Astartes to make way for Primaris and whatever comes after them, and you then have no choice but to pay €80 for something roughly the same shape, size and role as a €65 Land Raider, or to quit the game.

Up above, Cheesegear said that I called it insidious pricing - I didn't use that exact phrase, but I certainly agree with it. I'd rather they be honest and charge €70 for both and called it "inflation" with a promise that I could always use either, and not be tricked into paying €65 for something that I soon won't be able to use and will have to replace for another €80.

The short version is, I don't want to stop playing 40k but I also don't want to watch GW steer the world into thinking that some toy soldiers are magically worth more than other toy soldiers because they say so.

[Lord Torath]

Wait, Land Raiders are $110?

Five years ago, they were literally half that ($55)! Has the model really changed that much in 5 years?

Oh, wait. You guys are in Australia, aren't you. OK, US cost is.... $80. Still almost a 50% price increase in five years. Dang!

[Drasius]

...Weird. I've sold heaps of stuff.
But from what you've said, it sounds like you have other choices than Thousand Sons... Daemons, Knights, other Chaos Marines.

See, I've never understood selling stuff for 40k, and that goes double for people who (like me) refuse to have stuff commission painted because they like to paint their own stuff (plus you can't really use it in a tourney where there's points or prizes for painting if you've got a shred of decency).

Why not just wait until the thing that is hot garbage now becomes good again in a couple of editions?

If Thousand Sons were *ahem* dusted, you would rather quit the game than switch to another Faction that you already have - and thus must like, at least on some level?
That's what I don't get.

You better believe I would. The other factions are neat, but they're what I play when I want something different, or get fed up 'cause my Sons are rubbish for years on end. Them being nigh unplayable garbage is different from them being removed entirely from the setting since a) I can still play them even if they're bad and b) I can wait for them to be less bad, but if they're removed, stiff ****, you can never play them ever again.

They're what got my into 40k, they're the reason I stuck around, they're the army I will always come back to. If you don't care at all about your favourite faction, to the point where you wouldn't even miss them if there were deleted, that's what I don't get.

If you don't have another Faction 'cause all your money is sunk into a single Faction...Well, for me, it would depend on how long ago I started. I've seen some really, really ****ty store managers sell books and items knowing they were becoming obsolete within weeks. Grubs.

But a year goes past...Have you still not picked the hobby back up? Two years? Nothing GW releases in your chosen game you care about, 'cause you're still holding that grudge from when they dusted your Faction the other time?

Mate, since 8th started, GW have only released 3 things I care about at all for my 6 armies (the two new knights and the Lord Discordant, and even then, the LD is a non-starter 'cause my IW are unplayably bad). It would actually be quite easy for me to have not bought anything in the last 2 years and just keep working on my backlog and playing games since, and that's without me holding (much) of a grudge. If they removed a faction I liked, yeah, you'd better believe that I would be working on backlog rather than giving them more money.

It's very similar to what happens now. "If GW nerfs anything good, why buy anything at all? Just let me use proxies."
It comes from a very reasonable place. GW nerfs anything good. So why spend money on something you don't know will be good two months from now? Fair enough. Just hold on before you buy anything good. If you see it being constatntly praised and talked about, and sweeping major tournaments, maybe avoid it until the next major nerf cycle. Buy something else.

See, I don't subscribe to that, I buy what I like, and if it happens to be good, all the better (it never is though). Why people don't just wait a couple of weeks for the FAQ to come out and nerf anything too obnoxious then make purchases, I have no idea.

But not to buy anything, ever? GW could nerf anything, don't you understand? Therefore, I don't have to buy any models!
Don't really know how you got there.

I didn't, you're putting words in my mouth and they're the wrong ones.

It sure is. I also understand "AoS is basically less-good 40K at this point, and I don't need to play the same game twice." I understand that. That's fine. That's why it's not what I'm talking about.

It's not what I'm talking about either. If you liked WHFB and wanted to play a tactical game with big blocks of infantry that was largely based around movement, maneuvering and charges, you won't like AoS by default where, while it's somewhat more tactical now, is still more about slamming everything into the middle and relying on mathhammer. It's a different game that requires a different way of play and a different midset. Some people won't like it despite that it's all the same models (mostly) that they've played with.

In a similar vein, despite 8th still being 40k based and everything still being roughly the same for factions and whatnot, 8th is so different to 7th that it almost feels like a different game, and it's not a good thing for me as I think 8th is actually a bit ****. I know you think it's the best thing since sliced bread, and that's great for you, but for me, it kinda sucks. It's not quite enough to make me quit, but I'm not sad that I missed the last few years at all.

Then doesn't the game become pay to win? And isn't that a whole different problem?

Game is already pay to win, has been for a while, what rock have you been hiding under?

I see where you're coming from for the rest of your complaint, but this one I think I disagree quite strongly with. You're saying that you don't care if the new stuff gets price-hiked because you're not going to buy it. Fair enough - For me, Necrons could be $10 or $1000 per box, I don't want them anyway so it doesn't matter, right?

Wrong.

Nah, you're mistaking where I'm coming from. I don't care that they're hiking the price of new kits, not because I'm not going to buy them, not because I don't play the faction/s that are affected, but because I prefer the current system where new stuff is more expensive but old stuff stays the same price. It's a bit different for other countries who I believe have had price rises on almost everything, but here in Aus, to borrow the example below, when I started ~5-6 years ago, a Land Raider was $110 AUD. It's still $110 AUD today. I know I'm not missing out on anything by waiting [x time units] to buy an army or specific model and if the price does go up, it invariably means something has got a new kit and that's almost always a good thing.

As 'new stuff' becomes increasingly expensive, GW are normalising expensive stuff. Land Raiders are €65 and Primaris Repulsors are €80, which is fine - just buy Land Raiders.... until you can't. One day they might be squatted along with the rest of Astartes to make way for Primaris and whatever comes after them, and you then have no choice but to pay €80 for something roughly the same shape, size and role as a €65 Land Raider, or to quit the game.

And they could have upped the price of a 'Raider over time to match inflation, but they don't. Them squatting old marines to increase prices is a bit of a convoluted stretch, GW has traditionally not been afraid of yearly price hikes elsewhere, I see no reason why they couldn't just go back to that model if they wanted.

Up above, Cheesegear said that I called it insidious pricing - I didn't use that exact phrase, but I certainly agree with it. I'd rather they be honest and charge €70 for both and called it "inflation" with a promise that I could always use either, and not be tricked into paying €65 for something that I soon won't be able to use and will have to replace for another €80.

See, now if someone buys that 'Raider, they're paying 70 Euro (I don't have a squiggly e button) for something that will still be redundant and definitely didn't suddenly cost more to make. I'd feel doubly ripped off with this approach.

The short version is, I don't want to stop playing 40k but I also don't want to watch GW steer the world into thinking that some toy soldiers are magically worth more than other toy soldiers because they say so.

They already do that, if you were fine before, what has changed?

Wait, Land Raiders are $110?

Five years ago, they were literally half that ($55)! Has the model really changed that much in 5 years?

Oh, wait. You guys are in Australia, aren't you. OK, US cost is.... $80. Still almost a 50% price increase in five years. Dang!

As above, over here a 'Raider hasn't changed in price in the last 5-6 years, possibly more. The only thing that has changed is that now everyone else is slowly getting gouged at AUD and NZ rates, because, duh, if Aussies and New Zealanders will pay those prices, so will everyone else.

[Blackhawk748]

"The thing I like is no longer available, and I don't like the replacement" is a perfectly reasonable position. AoS plays nothing like WHFB, so if you liked WHFB, you won't automatically like its replacement. In fact, that's quite relevant, since while I don't play AoS, I really don't like 8th so far, and despite it being 40k, it plays almost nothing like 7th, which I liked the core mechanics of, just not the horrendous imbalance in power between the haves and the have-nots.

Hello, man is talking about me here. And I didn't buy into AoS, cuz I don't want what it is. I wanted bricks of dudes fighting other bricks of dudes. AoS is very much not that. So me and my like 6k points of VC left, went to Kings of War and have been very, very happy there