Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

[Voidhawk]

The Internal Balance of the Eldar codex(es) is some of the best GW has ever produced. (Almost) every unit has a purpose, that purpose is generally pretty obvious, and they can all succeed at it with a minimum of build-around to support them.

It's just a bugger that GW's External Balance is screwed up all nine ways to sunday. And intentionally screwed up to boot: it's in GW's interest for the meta to always have codexes that are basically unplayable, since it motivates the people who own those armies to buy in to something different rather than play games with the models they already own. Then they rotate those models slowly downwards in efficiency, until whatever you bought is trash-tier again.

A balanced game using 40k models will never be created by GW itself. If that's what your playgroup wants, you'll have to either write it yourself or find someone else who's already done that. Either rebalancing and fixing whichever rules version you most enjoyed, or starting over from scratch. Which is what I've been doing for a little while now - it's almost ready for a playtest of the basic frame, before I start on the grind of re-writing every codex (at least the ones my friends play) and then the nitty-gritty of adjustments and infinite tweaks.

[Forum Explorer]

Again, the issue here is that you can take whatever you want because the Eldar book has no bad options outside of Banshees. Try doing that with pretty much any other dex outside of guard and you're royally screwed.

Even then, Warlocks, Asurmen, Eldrad, Jet Autarch, DR's, War Walkers, Shining Spears and DA's all appear in top 3 lists at big GT's this year. 1573/2000 (~80%) of your points are in units that are taken by GT winners, and of the ones that aren't GT winners, they are by no means bad at all (though I don't quite understand why you've got a Falcon instead of a Serpent). How is that not a competative army? You're proving my point that Eldar has depth beyond almost any other dex.

Well to run it down on the why things are:

Warlocks: Cheap HQ choice coupled with some incredible powers.

Asurmen: really? I haven't seen him show up once in any GT results.

Eldrad: Same cost as a Farseer on bike, gets an extra power, a +1 to casts, and a 3++.

Jet Autach: It's the only good Autarch version, and it's like a Space Marine Captain.

Dark Reapers: They are good against anything and suffer no penalties to hit.

War Walkers: Again, really? I like them, but haven't really seen them in many results.

Shining Spears: Only melee option that can reliably get into combat turn 1 (and thus the only actually competitive melee option). Has a 4++ against shooting, so they actually have a decent chance of surviving turn 1 if you don't go first. Then S6 AP-4 2 D means they are well actually a good melee unit.

Dire Avengers: The cheapest troop choice, and thus the one picked. Mind you, I also see a lot of Rangers picked because they are inherently pretty durable and snipers are almost always valuable.

Anyways, that was the example of my competitive army, as in what I bring to tournament level play. And the part that you crucially missed was the faction chosen. None of my stuff has any penalties to hit. And I can get away with that in my meta, even at the highest levels.

For a casual game? You might see something like this:

Spoiler: 2000 points Eldar

Show

Outrider Detachment (Biel-Tan)
HQ
Farseer with Jetbike with Singing Spear: 137


Fast Attack
5 Shining Spears with Exarch with Star Lance: 172
5 Shining Spears with Exarch with Star Lance: 172
5 Shining Spears with Exarch with Star Lance: 172

Elites
6 Fire Dragons with Exarch: 144

Heavy Support
1 Fire Prism with Shurikan Cannon with Crystal Targeting Matrix: 170
1 Fire Prism with Shurikan Cannon with Crystal Targeting Matrix: 170
Falcon with Pulse Laser, 2 Shurikan Cannons: 130


Outrider Detachment (Biel-Tan)
HQ
Autoch on Jetbike, with Laser Lance and Shimmerplume: 105

Fast Attack
4 Jet Bikes with Shurikan Cannons: 104
4 Jet Bikes with Shurikan Cannons: 104
4 Jet Bikes with Shurikan Cannons: 104


Outrider Detachment (Biel-Tan)
HQ
Farseer with Jetbike: 132


Fast Attack
1 Vyper with Two Shurkian Cannons: 60
1 Vyper with Two Shurkian Cannons: 60
1 Vyper with Two Shurkian Cannons: 60

Mind you, that list does have a pretty bad Win:Loss ratio.

But really, when I think about it, more and more, I find that most armies have less and less trash choices.

Eldar: Don't take Striking Scorpions or Falcons. Or Wraithknights. Or pretty much any Phoenix Lord not named Asurmen. Or any autarch without a jetbike (well once Legends happens). Storm Guardians are basically garbage as well. Swooping Hawks are bad.

Dark Eldar: Incubi were bad, we'll see how they improve. Hellions. Slyyth and Laminaths. I think that's all.

Orks: Don't take the new buggies, except the Rocket Buggies. Or Flash Gitz. Burna Boys for a third? I don't even know if Burna Boyz are actually bad. Umm, Nob Bikers are way too expensive. For that matter, regular Bikers.

Death Guard: Umm Plague Marines? Even they are alright. It's just Blightlord Terminators are better. Oh, and I guess they can take Possessed and they shouldn't.

Tyranids: Don't take Ravenors or Haurospexs. Tervigons and Pyrovore suck as well. Plus Tyrant Guard and Harpies. The Toxicrine is kinda useless too. Mind you Lictors are also useless, but you end up taking them because they are the cheapest elite choice for a Brigade.

Thousand Sons: Don't take Rubric Marines. And that's it. Apparently the Vortex Beast is decent (I've never seen it used, not even in a Bat Rep), and the Terminators can actually be decently effective.

Imperial Knights: The Rapid Fire Battlecannon. And that's it. Mind you, the codex is tiny, so that's not hard to achieve.

Genestealer Cult: The Goliaths. And again, that's basically it.

Imperial Guard: Hydras, Deathstrike Missiles, Conscripts, Wyrdvane Psykers, some of the Baneblade Variants, the Officer of the Fleet, and Servitors.

The ones who actually have a bunch of trap options are Chaos Space Marines, Space Marines, and Tau. And the two marine groups simply have more options then nearly every other army. Actually, nearly nothing. Space Marines have by far the most options with 57 pages worth of units. In comparison, Craftworld Eldar come in at 31 pages, Tyranids at 28, and Necrons at 21 pages.

I'll admit, I'm not nearly as familiar with a lot of these armies as I am my Eldar, so I'm sure I missed some bad options, but there really isn't nearly as many bad options anymore.

Anyways, my point is that Eldar really aren't any better off for not having any bad options these days. They have plenty of good options. Very good options at that, as I maintain Dark Reapers are a contender for the best shooting unit in the game. But if you try and do that 'make a literally random army' game that we played in 7th? You're likely going to end up with a pretty weak army.

[Blackhawk748]

It's just a bugger that GW's External Balance is screwed up all nine ways to sunday. And intentionally screwed up to boot: it's in GW's interest for the meta to always have codexes that are basically unplayable, since it motivates the people who own those armies to buy in to something different rather than play games with the models they already own. Then they rotate those models slowly downwards inefficiency, until whatever you bought is trash-tier again.

Except that doesn't work when I already own 3 Armies. Orks are good (Even my version of them which is rather old school works out ok) but my Ad mech are crap and my Sisters are only ok, but I expect that to go downhill quick.

So when they all suck, I just stop playing. I'm not alone. When 7th happened and the Necrons dropped and the Orks were one the bottom of the pile the entire local Meta around here just stopped playing. And it never came back. That was the last straw with GW and now they're playing other, frankly better, tabletop wargames.

Seriously, GW needs to clean up their external Codex balance or they aren't gonna survive another decade.

[Drasius]

The Internal Balance of the Eldar codex(es) is some of the best GW has ever produced. (Almost) every unit has a purpose, that purpose is generally pretty obvious, and they can all succeed at it with a minimum of build-around to support them.

Funny, I remember everyone saying exactly that about both 6th Eldar and Tau and yet when they got caught up to by other dexes due to power creep, suddenly there was mass wailing and gnashing of teeth that internal balance was poor.

It's just a bugger that GW's External Balance is screwed up all nine ways to sunday. And intentionally screwed up to boot: it's in GW's interest for the meta to always have codexes that are basically unplayable, since it motivates the people who own those armies to buy in to something different rather than play games with the models they already own. Then they rotate those models slowly downwards in efficiency, until whatever you bought is trash-tier again.

Yes and no. It's in GW's interest to an extent 'cause suckers will just buy a new army, while others will not, and just drop the game all together.See exhibit A:

Except that doesn't work when I already own 3 Armies. Orks are good (Even my version of them which is rather old school works out ok) but my Ad mech are crap and my Sisters are only ok, but I expect that to go downhill quick.

So when they all suck, I just stop playing. I'm not alone. When 7th happened and the Necrons dropped and the Orks were one the bottom of the pile the entire local Meta around here just stopped playing. And it never came back. That was the last straw with GW and now they're playing other, frankly better, tabletop wargames.

On the other hand, the playerbase screams for nerfs of anything remotely OP and then the people affected by said nerfs complain (no matter how justified said nerfs were). I'm sure GW has numbers somewhere re: lost sales due to people quitting rather than buying another army vs sales gained due to people buying a new army 'cause their old one(s) suck, but we'll never see 'em, so I'm not sure it matters.

A balanced game using 40k models will never be created by GW itself. If that's what your playgroup wants, you'll have to either write it yourself or find someone else who's already done that. Either rebalancing and fixing whichever rules version you most enjoyed, or starting over from scratch. Which is what I've been doing for a little while now - it's almost ready for a playtest of the basic frame, before I start on the grind of re-writing every codex (at least the ones my friends play) and then the nitty-gritty of adjustments and infinite tweaks.

Won't 'cause they don't want to is very different from won't 'cause they can't.

As for writing it yourself, yeah, right. The idea that any group would willingly play homebrew dexes and rules is so far beyond my imagining that I simply cannot conceive of a group existing. Even if such a group existed, the instant someone didn't like some houserules, they'd start agitating for things to change or to go back to core rules.

Asurmen: really? I haven't seen him show up once in any GT results.

Was in a list that won the Cutthroat GT this year.

Spoiler

Show

Alaitoc Battallion
Asurmen
Baharroth
5x DA
5x DA
5x DA
10x Swooping Hawks
Prism, Crytal targetting, Spirit Stones
Prism, Crytal targetting, Spirit Stones

Ulthwe Battallion
Eldrad
Spiritseer
5x DA
20x Guardian Defenders
5x Rangers

Alaitoc Air Wing
Crimson Exarch
Hemlock
Hemlock

War Walkers: Again, really? I like them, but haven't really seen them in many results.

London open 3rd place had a unit of 3 with double scatter lasers, Jesters Ball 2nd place had 3 units of 1 with double missiles, Overwatch battle royale winner had a unit of 3 with double scatter lasers.

And the part that you crucially missed was the faction chosen. None of my stuff has any penalties to hit. And I can get away with that in my meta, even at the highest levels.

I didn't miss it at all, I just figured you were dialling it down for your meta, they have a stratagem or warlord trait that's worth building around or you liked and painted Biel Tan and run 'em anyway even if their trait is hot garbage.

Eldar: Don't take Striking Scorpions or Falcons. Or Wraithknights. Or pretty much any Phoenix Lord not named Asurmen. Or any autarch without a jetbike (well once Legends happens). Storm Guardians are basically garbage as well. Swooping Hawks are bad.

17 out of 43 lists that placed 3rd or better at a sizable GT this year had at least 1 unit of Storm Guardians in it, many had multiples and one list had 6 units acrosss 2 battallions. 3 had Swooping hawks and Sean Nayden took 2 units of hawks.

Dark Eldar: Incubi were bad, we'll see how they improve. Hellions. Slyyth and Laminaths. I think that's all.

Slyyth and Lhameans were both in winning lists, but to be fair, they were for filling out the last slot in a brgade and nothing more.

Orks: Don't take the new buggies, except the Rocket Buggies. Or Flash Gitz. Burna Boys for a third? I don't even know if Burna Boyz are actually bad. Umm, Nob Bikers are way too expensive. For that matter, regular Bikers.

I'm not sure I'd take the rocket buggy either. The Stompa is terribad. Didn't see nobs on any of the winning lists, nor Meganobs. Also didn't see the orkanaught pair. Flash Gitz ere in about 5 or 6 lists out of 36 though, always in a full unit of 10. Didn't see any dreads or kans nor either of the bommas. No Kommandos either.

Death Guard: Umm Plague Marines? Even they are alright. It's just Blightlord Terminators are better. Oh, and I guess they can take Possessed and they shouldn't.

Out of the 6 winning DG lists, only 1 had any Plague Marines in it, though 1 other list ran triple min plague brethren. If your codex is going out of its way to avoid your signature troops, you've got big problems (worse than Thousand Sons lists). None had sorcs, none had cultists, no helbrutes, no spawn, no bloat drones, no blight-hauler, no rhinos, almost all the named elite/FA choices were missing but I refuse to write out their retarded names. Also, 5/6 lists were FW, and 4 out of those 5 were HEAVY on the FW. It's a trash book.

Tyranids: Don't take Ravenors or Haurospexs. Tervigons and Pyrovore suck as well. Plus Tyrant Guard and Harpies. The Toxicrine is kinda useless too. Mind you Lictors are also useless, but you end up taking them because they are the cheapest elite choice for a Brigade.

Of the 5 winning lists this year, there were tyrant guard but no maleceptors, no deathleaper, gargoyles, spores, shrikes, carnifex, exocrine, trygon's, toxicrene or tyrannofex, no harpies or hive crones either. So, basically, you're taking as many gaunts as you can fit on the board, +/- some 'stealers, nothing else matters because lol, fearless chaff.

Thousand Sons: Don't take Rubric Marines. And that's it. Apparently the Vortex Beast is decent (I've never seen it used, not even in a Bat Rep), and the Terminators can actually be decently effective.

For reasons I can't fathom, at least 1 list took 3 battallions of TS, with 7 Rubricae units and still won and 3 of 9 winning lists (how very Tzeentchian) included rubricae. No lists included Helbrutes, Shaman, spawn, enlightened, land raiders (though one had a spartan), preds, vindicators, defilers, forgefiends, maulerfiends, heldrake, rhino or the mutalith. 5 lists had at least 1 terminator armoured sorceror, none of the other HQ beyond Ahriman was taken, who was of course in every single list.

Of the 22 units in their book, only 7 were taken at least once in a winning list.

Imperial Knights: The Rapid Fire Battlecannon. And that's it. Mind you, the codex is tiny, so that's not hard to achieve.

If you're not running triple crusader, you might as well go home. That's what the data suggests. The warden is passable because it's got an avenger cannon, the Gallant is there as points filler when running more than loyal32/rusty 17.

Genestealer Cult: The Goliaths. And again, that's basically it.

Imperial Guard: Hydras, Deathstrike Missiles, Conscripts, Wyrdvane Psykers, some of the Baneblade Variants, the Officer of the Fleet, and Servitors.

The ones who actually have a bunch of trap options are Chaos Space Marines, Space Marines, and Tau. And the two marine groups simply have more options then nearly every other army. Actually, nearly nothing. Space Marines have by far the most options with 57 pages worth of units. In comparison, Craftworld Eldar come in at 31 pages, Tyranids at 28, and Necrons at 21 pages.

I'll admit, I'm not nearly as familiar with a lot of these armies as I am my Eldar, so I'm sure I missed some bad options, but there really isn't nearly as many bad options anymore.

Anyways, my point is that Eldar really aren't any better off for not having any bad options these days. They have plenty of good options. Very good options at that, as I maintain Dark Reapers are a contender for the best shooting unit in the game. But if you try and do that 'make a literally random army' game that we played in 7th? You're likely going to end up with a pretty weak army.

Might get to the rest of this later, I've run out of time for now.

[Cheesegear]

For reasons I can't fathom, at least 1 list took 3 battallions of TS, with 7 Rubricae units and still won and 3 of 9 winning lists (how very Tzeentchian) included rubricae.

The guy running loads of Rubricae, still had, if memory serves, ~40 Tzaangors. He also had a few interviews to explain himself as well. Mostly, it was a huge troll, and proving a point.

Rubricae aren't bad, they're just not as good as Tzaangors. But, you can still win games making sub-optimal choices, if you are making optimal choices elsewhere in the list (e.g; DMC Tzaangors, Ahriman, Daemon Princes). Thousand Sons have some of the single-most powerful models in the game, and it can be argued - and proven - that if you have those 'auto-includes', the rest of your list doesn't actually matter, so long as they aren't objectively terrible. Which Rubricae, as mentioned, are not bad. They're just not the best.

This is where you - and I mean you, Drasius, not the royal one. Have made a huge mistake. By only looking at tournament lists. But, fair enough, that's what you have data on. But you make several false assumptions based on the data you have.

1. A lot of people who read tournament lists, think or believe, that if they simply don't take 11/10 or 10/10 options that they see in net-lists, then their list is fine. Alaitoc is the best. Therefore, Biel-Tan, Ulthwé and Iyanden are fair game. Right? It's not Craftworlds that's the problem, it's Alaitoc. I'm not running Saim-Hann Shining Spears, I'm running Biel-Tan ones. Totally different.

2. A lot of people who read Codecies, know that a unit doesn't have to be the best, it just has to be better than your opponent's models. That's all it takes to win games. You don't have to run 11/10 or 10/10 options. You just have to run models that are better than your opponent's. That is, it doesn't matter what a Craftworlds' player runs, or what Sub-Faction they choose. If an AdMech player hasn't invested heavily into Robots, then it doesn't matter what they have in their list.

This goes back to Rubricae. You don't need to run 60-90 Tzaangors. You can, and it's better than not running 60-90 Tzaangors. But if your opponent can't shut down your Psychic phase, it really doesn't matter what you or they bring.

The Death Guard Codex is brutally strong. Including Plague Marines (and especially lower points limits). The fact that you write off the Codex because only a fraction of the Codex appears in tournament winning lists. Is woefully misrepresenting how the game is actually played. There are people, legitimately, who believe that Buzzsaw Bloat-Drones are broken. They're an exceptionally strong Melee model, with <Fly>, with an Invulnerable save, with Ignore Wounds. They're on the level of Dawneagle Captains. Easy. The big problem, however, is that every <Chaos> melee model is irrelevant next to a Daemon Prince. Why take Buzzsaw Drones when you can take Daemon Princes?

This does not mean that Buzzsaw Drones are bad. It does not mean that Blighthaulers are bad (9 Blighthaulers will make you **** yourself). But, if you're going to misrepesent a Codex by only featuring tournament winning lists where everything not on those lists is automatically bad (and thus...Fair?), you've fallen into the exact trap that GW does when they don't actually know what a problem is.

This is exemplified by the Iron Hands Errata on the Ironstone. The Ironstone isn't what makes them strong. It's what makes them broken. But as we witnessed since its release, only a handful of lists even ran The Ironstone. Because the Iron Hands Supplement is so strong it makes Land Speeders competitive. "If I don't take The Ironstone, my list is fair. tru fax." Most Iron Hands' lists run the Benediction of Fury and that hot 'Meet the new Smash Chaplain, same as the old Smash Captain.' because of course they do.

[Forum Explorer]

Except that doesn't work when I already own 3 Armies. Orks are good (Even my version of them which is rather old school works out ok) but my Ad mech are crap and my Sisters are only ok, but I expect that to go downhill quick.

So when they all suck, I just stop playing. I'm not alone. When 7th happened and the Necrons dropped and the Orks were one the bottom of the pile the entire local Meta around here just stopped playing. And it never came back. That was the last straw with GW and now they're playing other, frankly better, tabletop wargames.

Seriously, GW needs to clean up their external Codex balance or they aren't gonna survive another decade.

I'm optimistic that Sisters will be a B-Lister army at worst. I mean, even with the crappy beta-codex, they still had some decently strong tricks, and were a devastating counter to psyker heavy armies.

And really, I think that 8th is the best their external codex balancing has ever been.

Spoiler

Show

Alaitoc Battallion
Asurmen
Baharroth
5x DA
5x DA
5x DA
10x Swooping Hawks
Prism, Crytal targetting, Spirit Stones
Prism, Crytal targetting, Spirit Stones

Ulthwe Battallion
Eldrad
Spiritseer
5x DA
20x Guardian Defenders
5x Rangers

Alaitoc Air Wing
Crimson Exarch
Hemlock
Hemlock

I didn't miss it at all, I just figured you were dialling it down for your meta, they have a stratagem or warlord trait that's worth building around or you liked and painted Biel Tan and run 'em anyway even if their trait is hot garbage.



17 out of 43 lists that placed 3rd or better at a sizable GT this year had at least 1 unit of Storm Guardians in it, many had multiples and one list had 6 units acrosss 2 battallions. 3 had Swooping hawks and Sean Nayden took 2 units of hawks.

I legitimately cannot figure out how these people are using their Swooping Hawks that they keep taking them. Against what I see being taken they get utterly crushed, doing nothing. What I see as popular in competitive metas, I can't see them being very effective against either. I really want to actually see them get used competitively one of these days. Nothing else in that list is a surprise.

For Storm Guardians, I've seen them taken because they are slightly cheaper than Guardian Defenders, and you can have smaller squad sizes to boot. That doesn't make them good, it just means you can buy more good stuff and still fill out battalions.

Partially I'm dialing it down for my meta, but also because stacking penalties to hit is frustrating for my opponents. Even if they win, they aren't really having fun. So I try not to inflict it on them unless I have an actual pressing desire to win at all costs. The Bein-Tan trait is actually pretty decent if you build around it, and it's why my Autarch in that list is free to be a different faction, since I don't need his reroll 1's aura. But it does leave my list pretty easy to get shot up.

Basically what Cheesegear is saying. Lots of units are really quite good, without being seen at competitive tournaments because they aren't the best. Most players at major tournaments don't take things that aren't the best thing they can get. That one guy who won with Grey Knights and other occasional exception aside. If all you are doing is looking at tournament play, then you are going to get a poor impression of what most people actually play, unless tournament play is all you see. For that matter, even tournament metas have used a wide variety of tricks.

[Drasius]

Have I fallen into some sort of bizarro world where people make the same arguments to me that I normally make to them?

It feels like you both missed the point I was making, so I guess it's my own fault. The point wasn't that there are only half a dozen units worth using in every dex, it was that the eldar dex has a place for almost every unit, even in the absolute tip of the pointy end of competitive tournament lists while everyone else spams the same half a dozen units. The point was that the eldar dex is definitely not in need of any buffs and anyone who thinks it is should maybe play Ad Mech or Crons before complaining too hard.

The DG dex must be in trouble, because our store manager is no slouch and he's not running an uncompetative list, but he hasn't won a game with his death guard for months, but he can still win games with his woofs.

[Turalisj]

If you think Eldar need buffs, I invite you to run a mono grey knights list for a few months.

[Forum Explorer]

Have I fallen into some sort of bizarro world where people make the same arguments to me that I normally make to them?

It feels like you both missed the point I was making, so I guess it's my own fault. The point wasn't that there are only half a dozen units worth using in every dex, it was that the eldar dex has a place for almost every unit, even in the absolute tip of the pointy end of competitive tournament lists while everyone else spams the same half a dozen units. The point was that the eldar dex is definitely not in need of any buffs and anyone who thinks it is should maybe play Ad Mech or Crons before complaining too hard.

The DG dex must be in trouble, because our store manager is no slouch and he's not running an uncompetative list, but he hasn't won a game with his death guard for months, but he can still win games with his woofs.

Sure, I can certainly agree that Eldar don't really need any buffs. And going way back to the beginning of this conversation, yes, I do find Lans Xeros complaint that Eldar didn't get buffed as much as Iron Hands to be kinda ridiculous.

Also yeah, I'll agree that Eldar have lots of good options, and more importantly, a variety of good options. They can play the counter to pretty much anything in the game. Not counter to everything in the game, but whatever the meta is, they have tools that can be used that are good against the current meta. And a lot of armies can't do that. Even if they have multiple good units, they typically are still forced into a specific archtype.

But in their current state, I also don't think they can be a complete counter at the competitive level. They are good, but not so good that they are guaranteed to win. Which is why you'll typically see a couple of them in the top 16, but only a couple.

[lord_khaine]

Out of iddle curiosity, what is it that Iron Hands got that made them blow up like that?

[Cheesegear]

Out of iddle curiosity, what is it that Iron Hands got that made them blow up like that?

Move and shoot Heavy weapons with no penalties - including Vehicles.
Heavy weapons re-roll 1s to hit - including Vehicles.

One of the things that keep Heavy weapons fair, is that they are non-mobile.
One of the things that keeps Space Marines fair, is that they typically castle around Characters. A very mobile Space Marine army will typically lose buffs, or, a decent opposing list will pick out Captains early and hard.

Iron Hands are just Space Marines without the Space Marine weaknesses because they don't castle while also having a multitude of weapons that the meta wants to take anyway (low/mid cost, mid-strength weapons with AP-1 with a high rate of fire). Which is in addition to the durability that Iron Hands were already known for. But then they also tacked on that Iron Hands' Vehicles basically don't degrade. Space Marine Vehicles would be really strong if they didn't take negs to hit and didn't degrade and they had access to consistent AP-2 and...Oh.

All killer, no filler...Well, except Troops. But Space Marine Heavy slots are so important that it's irrelavent what you put it any other slot. And Iron Hands have the best Heavy slots.

Simply put. It's Eldar from 7th Ed. Mobility and Firepower should not be a thing. You can have one or the other. Not both. In a game where the ability to 'Take all Comers' is increasingly harder and harder because 8th Ed. bloat is a very real thing (which, I'll remind you, GW said wouldn't happen 'this time'), Iron Hands are one of the few armies in the game that can take all comers.


Consumers: In order to make Allies not worth taking, you have to make the bonus for going mono-Faction more substantial.
GW: You mean like this? *Releases Iron Hands*
Consumers: ...We regret everything we said.

[Voidhawk]

As for writing it yourself, yeah, right. The idea that any group would willingly play homebrew dexes and rules is so far beyond my imagining that I simply cannot conceive of a group existing. Even if such a group existed, the instant someone didn't like some houserules, they'd start agitating for things to change or to go back to core rules.

It's not that much of a stretch; it's just the logical follow-on from the ITC changing how things play. Or Community-Comp from back in 6th/7th. Or any of a hundred other house-rules, variants, and home patches that various individual playgroups use. So long as it holds people's interest, gives rules for everyone's pet unit, and isn't too complicated to bash out a small-points game, you should have a bedrock to build from.

As for the "what do we do about infinite complaints" issue, we can divide the solution by Group Size:

1) A Small Group of a handful of players, probably playing in someone's house - Firstly, be adults about it. Have conversations about what each player's issues are, and try and work out where they come from (hint: it might not be the rules at all). If it's about a particular match-up, then have each side swap and play a few games from the other's perspective.

2) A Large Group of many players, such as a tournament circuit, probably communicating online - If you've got this far, you can be at least a little confident in your own decisions, so don't change anything on a whim. And hey, dealing with these complaints is what you signed up for when you went Large. Create a discord for rules discussion, promote some of the calmest heads to lieutenants to moderate it, and then listen primarily to what the lieutenants tell you are issues. Try not to make major changes sooner than a month before a major event. Pretty much the same stuff that various groups did for Fantasy after GW blew it up (my group plays Mathias Eliasson's 9th Age rebuild).

Remember: it doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be better than GW.

[lord_khaine]

Alright thanks for the explanation Cheese.
Though in this case it sounds like Iron Hands got the trifecta of Firepower, Mobility and durability.

Remember: it doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be better than GW.

It is also a good point about 9th age.
That does kinda show that if the rule seems fair and unbiased, then it is possible for fan-rules to get adopted widely.

[Forum Explorer]

Except that doesn't work when I already own 3 Armies. Orks are good (Even my version of them which is rather old school works out ok) but my Ad mech are crap and my Sisters are only ok, but I expect that to go downhill quick.

So when they all suck, I just stop playing. I'm not alone. When 7th happened and the Necrons dropped and the Orks were one the bottom of the pile the entire local Meta around here just stopped playing. And it never came back. That was the last straw with GW and now they're playing other, frankly better, tabletop wargames.

Seriously, GW needs to clean up their external Codex balance or they aren't gonna survive another decade.

Speaking of Ad Mech being bad, here's a link to a guy who went 5-0 at the Iron Halo GT as pure Ad Mech. He does Bat Raps for every game, so you can see how he does it too.

[Cheesegear]

Combat Doctrines was a huge over correction to 'S4, AP- is nothing.' Especially since the only units that that statement applies to are basically Scouts and non-dedicated Melee attacks. Heavy and Special weapons absolutely do not need extra AP. And Melee attacks should defintely not have extra AP after you've already put +1 Attack onto Marines as well.

Combat Doctrines as-written basically invalidated huge swathes of the <Heretic Astartes> meta overnight. Which is incredibly insulting cause Chaos Marines 8.2 was barely a month old.

Then we hit Combat Doctrines+. Just...Wow. The Imperial Fist one is mid-tier at best but still allows for rocket tag vs. Knights. Imperial Fists arent even good and yet they invalidate Knight Crusaders 50% of the time!

Ultramarines are 'If I can make it to Turn 2 with my army intact, I win.' Which isn't always possible, of course. But it's a very reliable game plan. Just make sure all your heavy hitters are T5+ with multiple wounds...Oh Space Marines have loads of those units available to them.

So yeah. I'd hate to be a <Heretic Astartes> list that relies on the Shooting phase. And I feel even worse if you started your army with the 8.2 Codex. I hope you had a good one month of having nice things before Loyalist players slapped your army list out of your hands and called your Gods lame.

Posted from phone.

[LansXero]

Combat Doctrines was a huge over correction to 'S4, AP- is nothing.' Especially since the only units that that statement applies to are basically Scouts and non-dedicated Melee attacks. Heavy and Special weapons absolutely do not need extra AP. And Melee attacks should defintely not have extra AP after you've already put +1 Attack onto Marines as well.

Combat Doctrines as-written basically invalidated huge swathes of the <Heretic Astartes> meta overnight. Which is incredibly insulting cause Chaos Marines 8.2 was barely a month old.

Then we hit Combat Doctrines+. Just...Wow. The Imperial Fist one is mid-tier at best but still allows for rocket tag vs. Knights. Imperial Fists arent even good and yet they invalidate Knight Crusaders 50% of the time!

Ultramarines are 'If I can make it to Turn 2 with my army intact, I win.' Which isn't always possible, of course. But it's a very reliable game plan. Just make sure all your heavy hitters are T5+ with multiple wounds...Oh Space Marines have loads of those units available to them.

So yeah. I'd hate to be a <Heretic Astartes> list that relies on the Shooting phase. And I feel even worse if you started your army with the 8.2 Codex. I hope you had a good one month of having nice things before Loyalist players slapped your army list out of your hands and called your Gods lame.

Posted from phone.

They had their cheap Havoks and Obliterators, at least. But yeah, I hope Marines get reined in by the new and upcoming releases / changes from Psychic Awakening; although its more imperium now. Yeah, Eldar is so strong, cry cry, but if the first book is the standard, then the whole event might as well be forgotten already: It does very little for the faction (yeah it was already strong, I get it, get over it) so if it cant break a borderline broken army, what will it do for the other non-broken non-eldar factions? Probably very little to nothing (and hey, Sisters is the next one, maybe its just GW's way of telling me they hate me).

[druid91]

Except that doesn't work when I already own 3 Armies. Orks are good (Even my version of them which is rather old school works out ok) but my Ad mech are crap and my Sisters are only ok, but I expect that to go downhill quick.

So when they all suck, I just stop playing. I'm not alone. When 7th happened and the Necrons dropped and the Orks were one the bottom of the pile the entire local Meta around here just stopped playing. And it never came back. That was the last straw with GW and now they're playing other, frankly better, tabletop wargames.

Seriously, GW needs to clean up their external Codex balance or they aren't gonna survive another decade.

So... And perhaps this is a dumb question. But why?

If you already have all the books, models, and dice for a game you want to play. Why does the fact that a newer version you dislike exists prevent you from playing it?

And for that matter, if a ruling is stupid, what's wrong with saying 'Not in my codex therefore doesn't matter.'

[Lord Torath]

So... And perhaps this is a dumb question. But why?

If you already have all the books, models, and dice for a game you want to play. Why does the fact that a newer version you dislike exists prevent you from playing it?

And for that matter, if a ruling is stupid, what's wrong with saying 'Not in my codex therefore doesn't matter.'

Mainly because this is not a solo game. You need to have a partner to play against, and if their army isn't nerfed to uselessness by the latest ruleset, they will probably want to use the latest ruleset. If they do agree to play an older version there's no guarantee they'll agree to your house rule. I lucked out. My buddy and I both really preferred the 2nd Edition ruleset, so we can house-rule that to our hearts' content. If you're not as lucky in your choice of opponents, you're going to be out of luck.

[druid91]

Mainly because this is not a solo game. You need to have a partner to play against, and if their army isn't nerfed to uselessness by the latest ruleset, they will probably want to use the latest ruleset. If they do agree to play an older version there's no guarantee they'll agree to your house rule. I lucked out. My buddy and I both really preferred the 2nd Edition ruleset, so we can house-rule that to our hearts' content. If you're not as lucky in your choice of opponents, you're going to be out of luck.

That's the thing. Presumably this is a fairly large group of people who just....

Stopped playing. Because new rules came out.

[Tome]

That's the thing. Presumably this is a fairly large group of people who just....

Stopped playing. Because new rules came out.

A stagnant or dead ruleset means little hope of things changing for the better, which can easily kill your enthusiasm. And once you've decided not to make the jump to the new version there's less of a barrier to switching to a different game.

Alternatively, everyone does their own thing and you end up with a large group of people all wanting to play different things. Which isn't much different to no group at all.

[Forum Explorer]

That's the thing. Presumably this is a fairly large group of people who just....

Stopped playing. Because new rules came out.

Because not enough people stopped playing if that made sense. Or perhaps they weren't outraged enough. Because when AoS came out, people despised it. The backlash was intense, and so the fans actually made their own ruleset (9th age), and started playing that instead. There was that drive to actually do the work to make your own ruleset, which is extensive. And then there is the actual presence of people who would rather play the fan made version then touch the new game.

[Misery Esquire]

That's the thing. Presumably this is a fairly large group of people who just....

Stopped playing. Because new rules came out.

I started 40K in late 3rd edition and the end of Fantasy 5th, and joined the scene in two local stores. 4th and 5th 40K didn't have a large impact on the groups, nor did 6th Fantasy.

6th edition 40k did in my local same-age scene (there was a separate group of older ~40ish men who may have continued to play), I played about 3 games near the end of 7th and the Mandatory Formations Mix'n'Match and the rules on certain unit types turned me straight back away. 8th is doing nothing to bring me back - just reading the chat about it here decreases my interest in playing; though I did buy Imperium Index 2 and Xenos Index 2 so I could browse the units relevant to me.

7th edition Fantasy slowed the number of games/armies being played, so then when 8th edition came out and changed things more drastically it just killed the interest in general (didn't even make it to the End Times rules). I haven't tried AoS, and nor do I mean to, it's not the game I wanted to play. All it is, is confirmation that there won't be a 9th edition that I'd actually want to play.

[lord_khaine]

Because not enough people stopped playing if that made sense. Or perhaps they weren't outraged enough. Because when AoS came out, people despised it. The backlash was intense, and so the fans actually made their own ruleset (9th age), and started playing that instead. There was that drive to actually do the work to make your own ruleset, which is extensive. And then there is the actual presence of people who would rather play the fan made version then touch the new game.

It is likely also understandable with the backlash. It is the most brutal gutting of a setting i can recall.
A setting that at the same time, funnily enough, proved rather popular in Total War from what i have been told.

[Forum Explorer]

It is likely also understandable with the backlash. It is the most brutal gutting of a setting i can recall.
A setting that at the same time, funnily enough, proved rather popular in Total War from what i have been told.

The setting is great and Warhammer Total War is one of my favorite games.

So yeah, me? Not happy at all with AoS. I've played 9th Age a couple of times, but overall my playing any sort of Fantasy got slammed down hard.

[Blackhawk748]

So... And perhaps this is a dumb question. But why?

If you already have all the books, models, and dice for a game you want to play. Why does the fact that a newer version you dislike exists prevent you from playing it?

And for that matter, if a ruling is stupid, what's wrong with saying 'Not in my codex therefore doesn't matter.'

Because like 60% of the group where Ork mains, and 6th Ed wasn't exactly a party for us either. The rest of the armies where some Guard, a few Marines, Nids, Crons and Chaos.

6th Ed was... Not great for many of their armies and 7th just pissed them off.

That's the thing. Presumably this is a fairly large group of people who just....

Stopped playing. Because new rules came out.

See above. Orks dealt with no new Codex for 2 editions and when their book came out in 7th and it was pretty much trash from word go, most left. Then Crons hit and the rest told GW to get stuffed.

Didn't help that many of their secondary armies were bad or they didn't like what was good in the new one. (Gladius)

[Cheesegear]

So, with all Space Marine Supplements finally out, the three-month long wait to get a full picture of how the Space Marine Codex finally shakes out, is concluded.

Heavy Doctrine is OP as ****. The number of S5-7, AP-1, med-high RoF Heavy weapons in the book is...A lot. This matters because all of those weapons, are now AP-2. This immediately opens up a lot of 'dead' units to be put on the table, as well as making some previously already-good units (e.g; Eliminators and Thunderfire Cannons), really, really really good.

You see, Combat Doctrines in 7th Ed., were a 3-punch combo, and to use all three, you had to make a balanced army. If you didn't want to make a balanced army, that was fine. But you were leaving a pretty powerful ability on the table for no reason. At the start of a turn, pop a Doctrine, it disappears at the end of turn, and you can only use each Doctrine once per game.

Combat Doctrines in 8th Ed., isn't so much a 3-punch combo (L-Jab, R-Cross, L-Hook), as it is one punch...That you use three times (R-Cross, R-Cross, R-Cross). Because Doctrines in 8th don't disappear at the end of turn, and switching out of one, into the other, is a choice. A choice, which you can choose not to make, 'cause why would you ever switch out of Heavy Doctrine when it's so obviously the best one, and it's the default one so you don't even have to do anything? Just fill your army with Heavy weapons and you're done, right?

Codex
The Smash Captain was nerfed...To be replaced by Smash Chaplain, which is ~50 Points cheaper! Good job, GW. However, the Chaplain only has a 4+ Invulnerable, instead of Storm Shield. ...'Kay. I think most people would take -1 Invulnerable if they freed up ~50 Points. Intercessors now see regular play 'cause GW put the Vigilus Stratagems into the book and now instead of paying 3 CPs to make a unit good, you only have to spend 1. That being said, Intercessors-being-good relies on Stratagems, so it's still a bad idea to have more than one unit of 10.

The new releases (Infiltrators, Incursors, Invictor Tactical Warsuits and Eliminators) are a surprise hit. I don't think anyone was expecting Vicky Warsuits to be as good as they are...Until we saw points costs. Yes please. I'll take three. I don't even care that the model is only slightly less stupid than the Grey Knight baby-carrier. Surprisingly, these new units didn't seem to come at the expense of other units, because GW kind of forgot to invalidate everyone's previously existing armies (i.e; Scout spam, Devastators and a Thunderfire Cannon).

GW even found a way to make Whirlwinds good. But, said 'way' is by using a Stratagem, so you only want one. Even then, the same Stratagem can be used by a Thunderfire Cannon. Many 8th Ed. players already have a Thunderfire Cannon in their army list. But hey, if you've got a Whirlwind that's been sitting on your shelf for 10 years, it's time to break it out. Especially if your Whirlwind is actually a Forge World <Whirlwind> and now it's time to make everyone cry about Forge World again.

Despite getting hard-nerfed, even Repulsors found a way to get onto peoples' buy-lists, even if they couldn't afford them. Good job, GW. Turns out when you make a Transport that nothing can go in, it's bad. But when you finally release a unit that actually wants to be inside the Transport, suddenly people want one.

GW even released Successor Tactics, most of which are terrible. But hey, there were a couple of good ones, including some best ones.
Bolter Fusillades, Hungry For Battle, Long-range Marksmen, Master Artisans, Rapid Assault, and Stealthy.

6 out of 19 18 isn't bad. Especially since almost everyone thought there'd only be two good ones (the ones in blue), since there's no way that GW can make 18 relevant options - and, to be fair, they didn't. But six, is six more than I, personally, thought there would be (). And the reason for that is...

When Supplements were reviewed, it turns out that Successors can make use of Supplements, albeit with a few negligible negatives. Since Master Artisans is a thing, and you were allowed to be any Chapter you wanted according to the rules, that meant that no-one would ever play Salamanders again.

Ultramarines
The first Supplement off the bat. Tactical Doctrine+. Whilst Tactical Doctrine is active, all units in your army count as stationary if they don't Fall Back or Advance. Ohhhhhhh...So you can move-and-shoot Heavy weapons, but since you're no longer in Devastator Doctrine anymore, you don't get the extra AP!? Okay. That makes sense. We get it now. Also, you don't get to have free mobility until Turn 2. Checks out. This means that models with high movement and Heavy weapons, which would normally be total dog[poop], you can actually put on the board without feeling terrible? And Suppressors don't even come onto the board until Turn 2 anymore? ...Lemme just go out and buy three Stormhawks real quick. They'll be terrible on Turn 1. But they're a Flier, and my opponent probably can't kill 'em on Turn 1 - and certainly not all three. By Turn 2 they'll rock face. ...What do you mean I can put Land Speeders on the table again?

White Scars
Assault Doctrine+? ...Ew. Doesn't that happen at like, Turn 3? At the earliest? If White Scars can Advance and Charge as standard, well, all my Incursors and Vicky Warsuits are in Melee on Turn 1, everything else is in Melee on Turn 2...Isn't Turn 3...Too late? It is. That being said, having your entire army in Melee on Turn 2, is pretty good. Especially if you can Fall Back and Charge every turn after that. As long as you're not playing against, like, T'au, White Scars are a pretty decent Melee army with buffs spread across multiple units so your army doesn't suck. Not, like Blood Angels putting a whole stack of buffs onto a single glass cannon and spending 7 CPs to make sure it works.

GW misses a golden opportunity to put Primaris Kor'sarro on a Primaris Bike... But they don't have a CAD template for that, so it's too hard. Let's just reverse the pose on a Primaris Captain and add fur to the cape.

Raven Guard
Tactical Doctrine+. Get +1 to hit and wound vs. <Characters>. Okay. That makes sense. There are only a handful of units in the book that can target Characters anyway, so that's fair, sort of. And it really dunks on Knight players who want to spam <Character Vehicles> that can be targeted out of the game by any unit. Unlike Sergeant Chronus, Knights can pass wounds to a Victrix Guard model. Again, it's also Turn 2. If you want to use Heavy weapons vs. a Knight, you get +1 to hit and wound, but you don't get the extra AP...And it's Turn 2. Okay. There are significant drawbacks to switching out of Heavy Doctrine, but the benefits you gain, are solid enough that it's worth it in some pretty critical situations. We understand, GW. You might actually pull this off without significantly breaking Space Marines to the point of 7th Ed. (but remember kids, Space Marine players still aren't Eldar players. ).

Shrike looks dumb. But it's a really easy head-swap and the model is fixed.

Iron Hands
Space Marines was going fine...Until this Supplement.

Space Marine players with a conscience, realised almost immediately, reading the first ability in the book, that GW had seriously messed up. Whilst all other Space Marine players Supplement-hopped whatever Space Marines they currently had, to Iron Hands. Add Master Artisans and Stealthy and it's time to build an army. Devastator Doctrine+. The one Doctrine that does not need to be touched 'cause it's already the best one. GW 'Nopes!' out, and starts ****ing with a good formula; If Iron Hands are in Devastator Doctrine, then models with Heavy weapons count as stationary. Okay. Cool. So you basically just made them Ultramarines, but on Turn 1, and thus infinitely broken? 'Cause now you can process it from Devastators in Drop Pods? Nuh uh. 'Cause Ultramarines get to use Bolter Discipline and Rapid Fire their Boltguns even if they move, and what about Aggressors? ...**** your Boltguns. Why take Rapid Fire Bolt weapons, when you can take Heavy Bolt weapons? And Grav-Cannons! So now Iron Hands are making the exact same army that Ultramarines make. Except replace Aggressors with...Literally anything with a Heavy weappon. Did I mention that Land Speeders are competitive? If you're playing base Iron Hands, then you run a ****-ton of Vehicles 'cause that's what their Chapter Tactics tells you to do. But you could also run Stealthy and Scions of the Forge...And, whatever...BUT WAIT! There's more.
GW thinks that Iron Hands players wont take Captains, even though Captains are are really, really good. So on top of being Ultramarines+, GW gives all Iron Hands Heavy weapons re-roll 1s to hit, and now nobody needs to do anything. You don't have to worry about positioning, you don't have to worry about castles and not being able to grab Objectives! Just do whatever you want with 117% effectiveness!

Iron Father Feirros looks dope.

Imperial Fists
GW doubles down on the Devastator Doctrine+. Y'know, seeing as how all Fists' players are going to be locked into running Bolt weapons, you may as well do something for Rapid Fire and Assault weapons. No? Okay then. Instead of that, we're going to give Heavy weapons only, +1 Damage vs. <Vehicles> only. Turns out if an Imperial Fist fires a Krak Missile at a Tank, it's all good. Fire one at a Daemon Prince, and you can suck eggs and do 1 Damage like everyone else. So, combined with the existing Chapter Tactics, GW decides to lock Imperial Fists to Heavy weapons. But not any Heavy weapon, where, y'know, you have choices like how Iron Hands can take literally anything they want...No, what GW is going to do, is lock Imperial Fists to Power Fists Heavy, Bolt, weapons. What's that, then? ...Three weapons? Bolt Sniper Rifles, Heavy Bolters, Stalker Bolt Rifles? Because making IF Thunderfire Cannons, Whirlwinds and Vindicators would just be silly. You see, Rogal Dorn wasn't a half-robot, and so obviously didn't understand siege warfare. It's the Iron Hands who were famed for their Whirlwind and Vindicator usage.
In any case, building your army around three weapons is obviously super dumb. Just take Master Artisans and Stealthy like everyone else does, and then try and play rocket tag with Knights.

Tor Garadon, a character who everyone hated 'cause Matt Ward was still allowed to write self-insert characters, was Primarised and given a ridiculous model. Remember how the Iron Hands model has a Grav-Gun, and the Imperial Fist one has a Heavy Bolter....Haha. Just kidding. That would make sense. It's actually the other way 'round.

Spoiler

Show

Replace Axe with Heavy Thunder Hammer-head, and replace Heavy Bolter with Grav-Gun. That's right. Get a model with a Heavy Bolter, and to make it an Imperial Fist, you have to cut it off.

Salamanders
Okay. Master Artisans. Whilst Iron Hands are building Vehicles and replacing body parts, and the Blood Angels are busy painting lame painting with no battle relevance. Salamanders spend their downtime rotations master-crafting all their weapons. Okay, their Chapter Tactics already is that, barely. What other one-dimensional aspect of Salamanders do we know? Right. The Promethean Cult. Okay. Got it. Unlike Imperial Fists, who inflict their bodies with excruciating, imaginary pain (The Pain Glove). The Salamanders, routinely actually inflict real, physical damage upon themselves whilst listening to Dragonforce and beating nerds at Guitar Hero. This gives Salamanders a famed resilience and being notably tougher than any other Astartes except for Death Guard and Iron Hands (who cheat). The Promethean Cult, also gave Salamanders a resistance to the verbal temptations of Chaos, going so far back to the Heresy itself where the Salamanders already had their own Cult, and can the Warrior Lodges please **** off. We have our own Cult dedicated to the Imperial Truth and helping Humanity bridge the stars...And you want to talk to us about how the Emperor is lame and Astartes are superior and...Okay, you can leave now. If you think Vegeta is superior to Goku, then we have nothing to say to each other.

'Kay. So, the Salamanders' Combat Doctrine is called Promethean Cult. Okay, I wonder how the equivalent of Naruto's Will of Fire, nobility and self-sacrifice lends itself to a Combat Doctrine. 'If the Tactical Doctrine is active...' Okay, good. No more Devastator Doctrines... Salamanders get +1 to wound with Flame and Melta weapons. Oh, right. It's GW. Gotta go full meme if you don't actually read the books that your own Company publishes. I wonder how the legacy of the Firedrakes is doing? The hardest mofos in the Galaxy reduced to...Well, nothing at all.

You can't even pick up Long-Range Marksmen (and Master Artisans, obviously) and drop Heavy Flamers out of a Drop Pod because Tactical Doctrine doesn't even happen until Turn 2. How are you supposed to even use '+1 to wound with Flame and Melta weapons starting Turn 2'? Dunno. Who cares. The important part of Salamanders is Master Artisans, and GW stupidly make that a Generic Successor Trait. So, obviously to represent their legendary resilience, you can pick up Master Artisans and Stealthy, call yourself <Solid Snakes>, and use the Iron Hands Supplement, where the Solid Snakes are green, and their Chapter badge is a wyrm. Makes sense to me.

GW then makes a kick-ass model, but then gives him a lame name; Adrax Agatone. Because cultural differences are lame, and everyone knows that every planet has the same basic Greco-Italian naming conventions, because homogeneity makes fiction more interesting, not less.

[Wraith]

Whatever those images are supposed to be, Cheesegear, my antivirus/browser does NOT like them.

Still, at least Black Templars are going to be just fine.

Yep. Juuuuuust fine. No worries at all....

[Cheesegear]

Whatever those images are supposed to be, Cheesegear, my antivirus/browser does NOT like them.

Antivirus doesn't like 'em? Uh oh. I got them straight from Google Image Searches.
In any case, I removed them except for the one obviously from imgur.

Still, at least Black Templars are going to be just fine.

I wouldn't worry too much about Black Templars. They're a fairly well fleshed-out Chapter even outside the Horus Heresy/30K. It's hard to believe that GW would screw them up too badly. The main issue with Black Templars is simply going to be that Melee isn't very good, unless you have the mobility to back it up. That's why White Scars are actually a successful Supplement, despite being Melee-orientated Space Marines. How does that even work? Well, if you've got the mobility, you can Melee.

Black Templars, currently don't even have a gimmick. Aside from Deep Striking in Vanguard and re-rolling Charges. So there's only up. Well, also they will almost be guaranteed to have Assault Doctrine+, which, if White Scars is any indication, is too little, too late. It helps, sure. Extra AP is always good because extra AP wins games. But, as I've said before, once White Scars are in a place where they're using Assault Doctrine, they should already be well into winning the game.

[Wraith]

Antivirus doesn't like 'em? Uh oh. I got them straight from Google Image Searches.
In any case, I removed them except for the one obviously from imgur.

That one I can see. Even though IMGUR doesn't allow hotlinking anymore. Apparently. Or something. I dunno, it seems to be making it up as it goes along lately.

Black Templars, currently don't even have a gimmick. Aside from Deep Striking in Vanguard and re-rolling Charges. So there's only up.

Oof, now there's a challenge that GW is more than capable of rising (lowering?) to...

Seriously though, I've said it before but I would be quite happy if they got a bit of an update - new rules for Emperor's Champion et al, include the new Primaris units, some suitable strategems, that sort of thing - and went back to being able to take Land Raider Crusaders (or maybe Repulsors too, since I'm not so blinkered as to ignore the new releases) as Transports. It's a stupid gimmick, but it's a fun one... And probably kind of cool in Apocalypse. It'd certainly give them a unique identity, being "the Land Raider Guys".

[Cheesegear]

Seriously though, I've said it before but I would be quite happy if they got a bit of an update - new rules for Emperor's Champion et al, include the new Primaris units...

The very strong rumour is that Helbrecht is gonna die, and someone else is going to replace him. Because having an Admiral who never fights at all as a Chapter Master, is slightly confusing for a Character with a model, in a Chapter about sword-fighting on foot.