Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns

[Forum Explorer]

To be fair, not really. Of all the Chapters, Salamanders are the worst (except maybe Black Templars players who like Crusader Squads, even though the meta has completely sailed over them). Salamanders don't have a lot going for them. Their biggest selling point is Master Artisans, which is currently being taken by everybody who isn't using a named Character; Which is pretty much everyone who doesn't play Ultramarines. But, at the end of the day, even if you treat Salamanders as the new 'vanilla Marines', you still end up playing with the Marines.2 Codex. Which isn't bad. Even if you were to load up Salamanders Devastators with Heavy Bolters, they'd still be proc'd by Devastator Doctrine. Salamanders still have access to Vicky Warsuits. They still have access to Eliminators and Centurions and Thunderfire Cannons.

Salamanders get better if you totally ignore Promethean Cult, and just play Space Marines with a few extra Stratagems. A Vicky Warsuit with 12 automatic AP-2 hits is gold. Self-Sacrifice lets you draw aggro 'cause what even is that? Salamanders even get access to Veterans of the Long War, which is always an amazing Stratagem. If you are playing like Promethean Cult forces you into Flamer and Melta weapons...You're in for a bad time. Flamer and Melta weapons are some of the worst weapons in the Space Marines' arsenal. Providing a slight buff to the worst weapons in the book, is...A thing that GW did. But, at no point do you have to go full meme and take only Flamer weapons.

"...Here's my Thunderfire Cannon that shoots twice and has +1 to wound with an extra AP." That's what a Salamanders' player should be thinking about.
Why aren't your Salamanders re-rolling to hit with Hellfire Shells and Flakk Missiles the same as everyone else who runs Master Artisans does? 'Because memes? Salamanders aren't allowed to take Heavy Bolters and Missile Launchers.' Please.

Basically,
The best Space Marines, are better than the best Eldar.
The worst Space Marines, are worse than the worst Eldar.

The thing is, if their Doctrine is useless, then they can take in allies without really losing all that much. Unless you think the extra AP from the base doctrine is worth it.

[Cheesegear]

The thing is, if their Doctrine is useless, then they can take in allies without really losing all that much...

lol. Salamanders are the only Chapter that actually like working with Guardsmen? ...That works so well and I'm on board.

Tactical Doctrine - Promethean Cult; You will work with Guardsmen, and you will like it.

[Cheesegear]

Codex Supplement: Imperial Fists
The Sons of Dorn

For the purposes of this Guide, I have removed any references to abilities that affect <Buildings>. Let's be honest, your opponents aren't taking them. Let's be even more honest, you aren't taking them either, because Fortifications take up a Detachment slot, and why are you doing that to yourself?

Spoiler: Sentinels of Terra

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Siege Masters; <Imperial Fists> ignore Cover, and gain extra hits with Bolt weapons on unmodified 6s to hit. The important part of this ability is how you're hard-countering other Space Marine players who are running Stealthy - which is about two-thirds of them. The Bolt weapons having extra hits, isn't really that important because Space Marines run a lot of weapons that aren't Bolt weapons. That being said, getting extra hits off of some of the worse weapons in the book isn't bad. So yeah, if you're against a whole bunch of a-holes who try to abuse Cover mechanics, Imperial Fists say 'No.' This includes when you go first and your opponent can no longer use Prepared Positions.

No Matter the Odds; <Crimson Fists> gain +1 to hit vs. any unit that has at least 5 more models than your unit - your <Vehicles> count as 5 models, your opponents', don't. In addition, you get the extra hits off of Bolt weapons on a 6 to hit. The extra +1 to hit isn't that good, since if your plan is to kill hordes, then chances are that the weapons you're using already roll several dice. However, the +1 to hit hordes is very nice on units that take negs to hit when they move (e.g; Stormtalons, Stormhawks).

If a 'Fist with a Heavy Bolter, uses the Hellfire Shells Stratagem, and rolls a '6' to hit, what do?

Legacy of Dorn: If your entire army is made up of <Imperial Fists>, or, is generated entirely from a single Successor Chapter; Whilst Devastator Doctrine is active, Heavy weapons have +1 Damage vs. Vehicles. This works great with weapons that have a high rate of fire, since because you're using Devastator Doctrine anyway, you've already picked up the extra AP, that high RoF combined with the extra AP means you're mowing down hordes as-is, but the extra +1 Damage, even though you're going to end up wounding most Vehicles on a 5+, every would that goes through (with AP-2, at least), is going to hurt. This Doctrine+ makes the 'good against everything' weapons (e.g; Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons, etc.), even better against everything. If you build your Imperial Fists correctly, you should never, ever have any 'auto-lose' match-ups. Your best units include pretty much any Elite or Heavy Support unit that carries a Heavy weapon with more than...6 shots. Imperial Fists also have very...Offensive...Fliers.

Due to Power of the Machine Spirit already existing, any Imperial Fists model that has that rule, is superior to an Iron Hands' version of the same. Imperial Fist Stormravens are extremely offensive.

Successor Chapter Tactics

• Long-Range Marksmen; If your Heavy weapon has a 24" range (or less), this Tactic can make them slightly more usable since you no longer need to push your DZ and give your opponent a free 24" range shot against your stuff, too.
• Scions of the Forge; A lot of your better Heavy weapons-with-a-lot-of-shots are found on Vehicles, and this obviously works fantastically if you plan on running a lot of Power of the Machine Spirit.
• Stealthy; Obviously.

What about Bolter Fusillades? ...You may as well use core Tactics if you want that. There's a .17% chance you get a free hit with core Tactics. With BF, there's a .17% chance you get a re-roll, to still miss. If you're exceptionally desperate for re-roll 1s to hit; Space Marines have a really good choice for that that works on any weapon, instead of just Bolt weapons. With core Tactics, you can take the Captain anyway, for re-roll 1s to hit, and you pick up the free hit on 6s.

What about Master Artisans? Unlike most Chapters, Imperial Fists Successors don't want to run single-shot burst Damage weapons, because the difference between say, 4 or 5 Damage dealt to a Vehicle is fairly minimal. The whole point of the Imperial Fists' Doctrine+, is to turn anti-horde weapons into reasonably effective weapons to use against Vehicles.

Note; Whilst Crimson Fists are a Successor Chapter, and should be lightly shafted. Imperial Fists get to share their book like no other Founding Chapter does:

• Crimson Fists use their own Warlord Traits, not Imperial Fists.
• Crimson Fists have their own Relics, that Imperial Fists can't use, and vice versa.
• <Crimson Fists> count as <Imperial Fists> for all Stratagems. But, Imperial Fists don't count as Crimson Fists.

Spoiler: Stuff

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Imperial Fists Warlord Traits
1. +1 to wound vs. Vehicles isn't that good...Unless you're running a Smash Chaplain (...of course), or Combi-Plasma, or Grav-weapon...Basically, just be S5 or better. [Tor Garadon]
2. 2s and 3s fail to wound. If it was an emergency, you'd use a Stratagem for this, not waste your Warlord slot. [Captain Lysander]
3. Orbital Strike Stratagem, but now it's your Warlord Trait? ...Hell no.
4. Your Warlord can't ever Fall Back. However, he takes half Damage. Decent trade.
5. The Trait from the core Codex. It was terrible there, and it's terrible here.
6. Before the battle, gain +D3 CPs. Yep.

Crimson Fists WTs
1. When your Warlord dies, roll a 4+, and get back up with D3 wounds, denying your opponent the Kill Point. You also must place them more than 1" away from enemy models. Which means that if your opponent destroys your Warlord in the Fight phase, your Warlord can teleport. Bonus points if your Warlord is 'surrounded' by enemy models so you can teleport ~5".
2. If there are at least 5 enemy models within 6" of your Warlord, +D3 Attacks. Fairly strong. Especially with Teeth of Terra. Suicide dive into your opponents <Characters> who are surrounded by babysitter units, and then just unload 10 Attacks into your opponent's Character.
3. All <Crimson Fists> within 6" gain Defenders of Humanity. Units that already have this ability, count as two models. Arguably the best Warlord Trait in the entire book. [Pedro Kantor]

Relics of the Fists - Remembering that Successor Chapters cannot take Relics without spending CPs.
The Spartean; [Bolt Pistol, Heavy Bolt Pistol] S4, AP-3 with 2 Damage. Two shots. Can target <Characters>...Oh wait. It's got 18" range!? Holy **** it's actually usable. This might actually be a good Relic Pistol, because it has solid range and makes <Infantry Characters> real sad.

The Banner of Staganda; <Ancient>. <Imperial Fists> within 6" gain +1 to hit in Melee... wat. Why are Imperial Fists in Melee? Are we back to Matt Ward edition where we treat Imperial Fists and Black Templars as the same Chapter? Captain Lysander is unique because he likes fighting. He was almost exiled to the Black Templars because of it. I hope this doesn't become a recurring trend where the Supplement keeps wanting me to put Imperial Fists into Melee...

The Eye of Hypnoth; 6" Aura of re-roll 1s to wound. Reprinted straight from Vigilus.

The Bones of Osrak; <Librarian>. Re-roll Psychic tests when manifesting Geokinesis Powers. 'Cause Codex Powers are dumb.

Duty's Burden; <Crimson Fists>, [Master-Crafted Auto Bolt Rifle, M-C Stalker Bolt Rifle]. The Auto Bolt Rifle is cheaper. It's a Rapid Fire Heavy Bolter. Definitely not a bad thing to give to a Captain.

Fist of Vengeance; <Crimson Fists>, [Power Fist]. It's a Thunder Hammer. Except it's actually a Power Fist. So instead of paying 40 Points, you're only paying 9. Yes please. It's literally one of the best weapons across all Space Marine Supplements, not even just from this one.

You'll notice that because Imperial Fists are forced to share their page-space like literally no-one else does, they 'lose' two Relics. What else could have been in those two slots? Well...Anything. But we do know that Imperial Fists can't use them, so to them, they're basically just not there.

Special-Issue Wargear - For Imperial Fists, consider these 'More Relics to choose from'. For Successor Chapters, these are the Relics you can pick.
Adamantine Mantle; Gain Ignore Wounds (5+).
Artificer Armour; Gain 2+/5++ save. For Librarians.
Master-Crafted Weapon; A non-Relic weapon gains +1 Damage. Most often used to turn a Smash Captain's Thunder Hammer to 4D. But also a Storm Bolter that does 2D a pop is also pretty good.
Digital Weapons; In the Fight phase, make an additional to hit roll, if it hits, do a Mortal Wound.

Fist of Terra; It's a Power Fist with +1 Attack and no negs to hit. Pretty decent. If you're going to run three <Crimson Fist> Smash Chaplains. Benediction of Fury, Fist of Vengeance, Fist of Terra. Triple-team a Knight into the dirt.
Gatebreaker Bolts; Choose a Bolt weapon. Gain an additional profile; 1* shot at normal strength. AP-5. *A successful hit roll, equals D3 hits. How does this work with Fists' extra hits on 6s?
Auric Aquila; Gain a 4++, and, Ignore Wounds (5+) vs. Mortal Wounds in the Psychic phase. Pretty sure this is the name of the Custodes' magic Jetbike.
Warden's Cuirass; +1 wound.

As always, it appears Successor Chapters can just pass around Relics Special-Issue Wargear as they see fit. The Brotherhood of the Travelling Cuirass, for example.

Geokinesis Discipline
Tectonic Purge; CV6, 12". All enemy units within range have -2 to charge. Combine with Repulsors for -4, 'cause **** you.
Wrack and Ruin; CV6, 18". Roll nine d6, each 5+ deals a Mortal Wound to an enemy unit wholly within a terrain piece.
Iron Inferno; CV6, 18". Select a point on the battlefield within range. Roll a 4+ for each enemy unit within 6". They take a Mortal Wound.
Fortify; CV4, 12". Heal an <Infantry> or <Biker> model for D3. Far more reliable than an Apothecary. Also, the easiest Power in the game?
Aspect of Stone; CV5. The Psyker gains +2S and +2T. Use is extremely limited.
Chasm; CV6, 18". Roll 2d6 vs. an enemy unit's Move that doesn't <Fly>. If you lose, deal a Mortal Wound. If you equal, do D3. If you beat the target's Move value (on 2d6, lol), do 3 Mortal Wounds... Why is this only CV6?

Tactical Objectives
11. Choose 3 Objectives. If you control one, gain a VP, if you control two, gain D3, if you control all three, D3+3. Sweet! ...Oh wait. You can't score it in the turn you draw it. So...a) Your opponent sees that you have this card, doesn't do anything at all about it, and lets you score 'Defend Supremecy' in their turn. Or b) You hold onto the card for a turn, score it in your next turn, and don't cycle your deck. Still, if your opponent can wipe you off of three different Objectives in a single turn, they've already won the game.
12. Score if you have an <Imperial Fists Infantry> unit wholly within a terrain piece...You mean I get points for castling now?
13. Choose between 1 and 3. Get that many VPs if you destroy that many units with <Imperial Fists> units in the Shooting phase. Free Discard at end of turn.
14. Destroy an enemy <Character>, using an <Imperial Fists Character>... In the Fight phase.
15. Score 1 Point if, after two turns (i.e; Yours and your opponent's), no <Imperial Fists> unit Fell Back...Uh...Okay?
16. Gain a Victory Point for each unit wholly in a terrain piece, destroyed by an <Imperial Fists> unit (max. 3)... Remembering that default-skin Imperial Fists ignore Cover.

The only one that's particularly egregious is #14. Unless you're running a Smash Captain/Chaplain. In which case go for it. #15 starts off real bad...But then, unlike Dark Angels, Imperial Fists are allowed to fail Morale tests and still get points, because there's value in running away, just not conceding ground.

Spoiler: Stratagems

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Remembering that Successors always count as <Imperial Fists>, but, Imperial Fists don't count as <Crimson Fists>.

Bitter Emnity; Re-roll to hit and wound in the Fight phase vs. <Iron Warriors>. ...Sigh. Wrong. Rogal Dorn never gave a **** about Perterabo. That was a dumb meme started by Horus. Imperial Fists should be dunking on Alpha Legion or Night Lords. It's Iron Warriors who hate Imperial Fists... But also remember that game designers don't read novels. Because fluff and the game doesn't mix. There is only dumb memes. ...Also, Fight phase!? Really!?

Bolster Defences; If in Cover, +2 to Armour save instead of +1. Centurions should almost always be in a terrain piece for a 0+ save.

Sappers; Wasted page space.

Pain is a Lesson; Non-<Vehicle>, non-<Servitor> unit, gains Ignore Wounds (6+). Probably not worth it...Ever.

Close-Range Bolter Fire (2); Bolt weapons become Pistol weapons, instead of their normal type. Wait. WHAT!? So...If your opponent Charges a unit of Centurions, and, after eating Overwatch, if said unit doesn't roll right over those Centurions, in your turn, you're about to make that unit eat ****. Turning Heavy Bolters, into Pistol 3, is so ****ing good I don't even know where to start. Well, obviously you start with Heavy Bolters in Drop Pods not taking negs to hit because they're Pistol weapons. Then, because you now have two Pistols, your Devastators can even throw in an extra S4, AP- shot, 'cause while you're carting around a Heavy weapon, you also have enough time to whip out your side-arm.

Bolter Drill (2); Unmodified '6' to hit with a Bolt weapon causes another hit. Default-skin 'Fists now do three hits on a '6' to hit, with Infiltrators doing 3 hits and a wound.

Stubborn Defence (2); Start of Battle. Whilst your Warlord is alive, you can't Discard Storm & Defend Objectives (#31-36, DefObX). But, DefObX is now worth an additional VP.

Tank Hunters (2); +1 to wound vs. a Vehicle. Combine with Vigilus Centurions to do Mortal Wounds on a 5+ to wound. If said Vehicle is also the closest model to your firing unit, remember to combine with a Chaplain to now deal Mortal Wounds and regular wounds on no worse than a 4+.

Champion of Blades; During army list creation, and Once. If your Warlord is from an Imperial Fists Successor, you can choose from the Relics of the Fists, instead of only Special-Issue Wargear. You count as <Imperial Fists> and/or <Crimson Fists>.

Sentinel of Terra; Start of Game and Once per battle. Your Warlord has a second Warlord Trait. It must be from the Imperial Fists' Traits - as opposed to the Codex Traits.

Clearance Protocols; All models in a unit can throw a Grenade...Unlike Guardsmen, Space Marines have Krak Grenades as standard.

Praetorian's Wrath (2); Until your next turn, if Devastator Doctrine is active (always), all Heavy and Grenade weapons gain an additional AP on a '6' to wound.

Gift of the Phalanx; Start of Game. Any 'Sergeant' model in your army may take one of the following; Master-Crafted Weapon, Digital Weapons, Fist of Terra or Gatebreaker Bolts. You definitely don't need to use this four times to get all four. Probably the most important one is a Centurion Sergeant doing 4 Damage with Siege Drills. Or a Veteran Intercessor Sergeant with the Fist of Terra with 5 Attacks who can't be targeted ever.

The Shield Unwavering (2); End of turn. An <Imperial Fist Infantry> unit within 3" of an Objective gains +1 Attack and +1 to saving throws until your next turn.

Slay the Tyrant; A <Crimson Fist> unit gains +1 to hit enemy <Characters>.

A Hated Foe; A <Crimson Fist> unit gains re-roll to wound vs. <Orks>.

Spoiler: Named Characters

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Captain Lysander: Costing cheaper than a Captain in Terminator Armour with the same loadout...He's a Captain in Terminator Armour with a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield. In addition, if an <Imperial Fists> unit fails a Morale test within 6", they can only ever lose one model. ...Also, his Thunder Hammer is S10. Remembering that Lysander comes with a pretty garbage Warlord Trait, so don't have the 1st Captain as your Warlord, 'cause fluff is dead.
For those making Count As models, Lysander is not equipped with a Storm Shield. The reason he has a 3+ Invulnerable save is...Reasons.

Tor Garadon: A Captain in Gravis Armour who actually bothered to learn that paying points for two two Melee weapons is really stupid if you're only ever going to use one. In an effort to make old!Marines look stupid and outdated, Tor Garadon's Power Fist is S12, because Lysander is a dumb idiot for dumb idiots. At the start of the Shooting phase, an <Imperial Fists> unit gains +1 to hit, additionally, while they're within 3", they're definitely within range of his Rites of Battle. So Tor Garadon hands out +1 to hit (to one unit), and re-roll 1s to hit. This is very, very strong against units who like to run negs to hit, and Imperial Fists' Hunters will be dropping Aeldari planes out of the sky all day, every day. Additionally, Tor Garadon brought along a Grav-Gun (not even a Grav-Cannon, and not even a Bolt weapon, 'cause fluff is stupid), y'know...Just in case. Also, he has +1 Damage vs. <Vehicles>, and his Warlord Trait gives him +1 to wound vs. <Vehicles>. So if you want to go around donkey punching Knights with his Fist...Use a Smash Chaplain instead.

Despite being a Siege Captain, Tor Garadon has red shoulder rims for 3rd Captain, because how any Company works after the 5th is a bit too confusing.

Pedro Kantor: It's ya boi Pedro. He's a Chapter Master, and just having access to a Chapter Master without spending CPs is more than enough reason to start Crimson Fists. As with all Codex Marines 8.2 Chapter Masters, he hands out full re-rolls to hit, which means even if your opponent has negs to hit, you still re-roll the misses-that-could've hit. Additionally, if you really, really want to make a Charge, but you don't want your opponents unit dead, just weak (e.g; To get Blood and Guts VPs), you can also re-roll hits and try and turn them into misses. While you're about to Charge, Pedro also hands out +1 Attack to all <Crimson Fists> within 6", which stacks with Shock Assault because **** you, that's why. Pedro Kantor also comes stock with one of the single-best Astartes Traits across all Supplements. So, for a cool 140 Points, Vote for Pedro.

[Ionbound]

I mean wounding MEQs on 3s and GEQs on 2s with Flamers and both on 2s with Heavy Flamers seems pretty good, especially if you're doing it at 11" and not giving up Master Artisans for it. Especially in the horde-focused Meta, if you can start pumping out ~30 wounds per turn per unit of 10 against infantry that's going to roast a lot of stuff.

[Cheesegear]

I mean wounding MEQs on 3s and GEQs on 2s with Flamers and both on 2s with Heavy Flamers seems pretty good, especially if you're doing it at 11" and not giving up Master Artisans for it...

What are you using to get inside 11"?

[Hootman]

What are you using to get inside 11"?

Presumably Drop Pods, because a horde player probably isn't going to be bubblewrapping their infantry with their tanks (except that one time vs Guard, and my Orks made him regret it). Guard, Orks, Daemons, and Nids don't have as much Infiltrate as Marines/Eldar, far as I know.

[Blackhawk748]

What are you using to get inside 11"?

Drop Pods? I mean, Drop Pods are great, but then again, why aren't you just using a better weapon?

[Cheesegear]

Presumably Drop Pods, because a horde player probably isn't going to be bubblewrapping their infantry with their tanks...

...The assumption here is that a horde player cares that you wiped a unit from the board. That's the problem. The instant your benchmark is 'I can kill MEqs and GEq!', you've fundamentally fallen behind the meta. Because Marines aren't 'Marines' anymore. And Guard literally don't care if you wipe a unit of 10 from the board, 'cause the whole point is that they have more. If you aren't removing their Tanks, then you're not really doing meaningful damage. If you're not knocking out the Knight Crusader and Armiger Helverins in the back, you're not doing damage.

If you Drop Pod down in front of 10 Guardsmen, your Guard opponent is going to smugly laugh at you. You've activated their Trap card and you're about to eat Hellhounds.

Drop Pods aren't good, and especially not ones that drop units within 12" of your opponent. Second...Salamander Drop Pods on Turn 1, are literally no better than anyone else's. Salamanders don't Do The Thing until Turn 2. That's why you're better off running Aggressors in Repulsors. Why do you have Flame/Melta weapons, in a Drop Pod? Isn't that a Turn 1 strat? Tactical Doctrine is not a Turn 1 strat. Your Salamanders' Turn 1 is 'Heavy weapons are extra AP.' same as everyone else. Regular Flamers are total trash at that point. It's Heavy Flamers, or nothing. Until you hit Turn 2. Are you not bringing down your Drop Pods until Turn 2, in which case you've given your opponent a turn of spreading out - which they absolutely did do, especially if they're a horde.

You're better off running Land Speeders and Turbo-Boosting Bikes and maxing out your Flamers. It does the same amount of damage, and doesn't get hard-rekt by board control...
"But Salamanders don't have proper training in Bikes and Land Speeders because of the high gravity on Nocturne..."
...We all know that fluff is dead.

Salamanders are not OP. They're just pretty good.

[druid91]

So, first game with the new Iron Hands rules.

Spoiler: Iron Hands Battallion

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HQ
Captain in Gravis Armor: Boltstorm Gauntlet, MC Power Sword. Warlord: Student of History, All Flesh is Weakness (Paragon of Iron) Relics: Helm of Tempering
Primaris Librarian: Force Sword, Pistol, Grenades Relics: Gorgon's Chain (Forget the name of the strategem, gives you an extra relic.)
Primaris Lieutenant: Bolt Pistol, MC Stalker Bolt Rifle, Grenades.

Troops
5x Intercessor Squad with Auto-Bolt Rifles.

5x Intercessor Squad with Bolt Rifles.

5x Intercessor Squad with Bolt Rifles.

5x Intercessor Squad with Bolt Rifles.

5x Intercessor Squad with Stalker bolt Rifles

Elites
Redemptor Dreadnought, 2x Storm Bolters, Heavy Onslought Gatling Cannon, Onslought Gatling Cannon, Icarus Rocket Pod and Redemptor Fist. Made into a Character with March of the Ancients and given Merciless Logic with Hero of the Chapter.

Fast Attack
3x Inceptors with Assault Bolters

3x Inceptors with Assault Bolters

3x Inceptors with Plasma Exterminators.

Heavy Support

5x Hellblasters, Plasma Incinerators.

Spoiler: Genestealers

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So, not entirely certain of the roles his dudes are, so just listing by units/characters.

Characters
Biophagus
Abominant
Magus (Mass Hypnosis,???)
Patriarch (Mass Hypnosis, Might from Beyond)
Jackal Alpha (Sniper on Dirtbike that gives +1's to shoot)
Kellermorph

Units
10x Neophytes with Lasguns
10x Neophytes with Lasguns
Goliath Rock-Truck with a Heavy Flamer
- Inside said truck 5x Acolytes
3x Armored Sentinels
20x Genestealers
10x Abberants

I got first turn, and he'd had most of his guys in the shadows, so the only ones on the table and within shooting distance were the two squads of Neophytes, the Goliath Rock Truck, One of the three sentinels, and the Magus. The Alpha was also on the table but out of my shooting range.

Between the Dreadnought and the Hellblasters, destroyed the truck at which point he dropped the Acolytes behind some cover the truck had been next to, after one died with the truck. Intercessors did a fairly good job of wrecking the neophytes day, and he lost the remainder of both squads to Morale, and a single potshot taken with the Lieutenant did 3 damage to the sentinel that was in range. No real movement this turn and the Librarian dropped psysteel armor on the front line of intercessors.

End of my turn, on his first turn, he moved the Acolytes out, and got them ready for a charge, then tried to drop Mass Hypnosis on the front line of Intercessors, which I countered with Souls of Iron (Too cheaply actually, I hadn't checked the Errata.), in shooting the Alpha took a shot at the Lieutenant, which did some damage but didn't kill him and the Sentinels Lascannoned the Dreadnought, which saved two, and managed to FNP a good portion of the rest.

He charged the Acolytes anyway, and got shredded by Auto Bolt Rifles Overwatch. The one guy who did get into melee killed an intercessor, and then got punched to death by the rest.

Turn Two.

Moved some Intercessors around, Along with the Dreadnought, dropped a Squad of Inceptors with Assault Bolters into my backline to fill up the hole I'd created there by moving forwards some so he couldn't drop his whole army behind me. Dropped my semi-Traditional suicide squad of Plasma Inceptors over on the other side of my DZ nearer to the sentinels. (We'd split the table longways into two DZ's and I had mostly just kind of turtled up in a corner. Also, I'd forgotten I had three squads of Inceptors in my list so I only used two.)

Psychic phase, managed to actually get Blessing of the Machine god up on the Dreadnought, and then Psysteel armor on the new front line as I'd sent the Auto-Bolter Guys out to hunt the Magus.

Shooting, Dropped Boltstorm which finished off my CP (The Tempering Helmet was useless, didn't get a single one back all game.) To have the Auto Bolt Rifles do some serious damage, but not kill the Magus, Then finished him off with another squad of intercessors firing on him. The Dreadnought shot at the nearest sentinel but did minimal damage. Then the Plasma Inceptors unloaded on them and did decent damage to the two undamaged ones, and whiffed entirely on the one that was damaged. One of the Sentinels died, as did one of the Inceptors.

Didn't do any Melee, or Charges.

Turn Two Genestealers. I actually have a picture of this round so....

Spoiler: Pic Related

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The Tanks are terrain, not units.

He dropped in his Abberants, Abominant, Biophagus, Genestealers, Patriarch, and Kellermorph.

Rolled poorly on the Biophagus enhancement, killing on of the Abberants, but getting an extra attack per Abberant. Patriarch got off Mass Hypnosis on the squad of grey dudes to the left, behind the half built Warscryer Citadel. Then also got might from Beyond off on the Genestealers. Abominant charged the Auto-Bolt-Rifles, (The one marine painted as Deadpool's squad.), while the Abberants charged the line of grey intercessors between them and the captain, before piling in to be within melee range of the Hellblasters. The Patriarch made his charge against the line of intercessors, but the genestealers did not.

The Abominant completely wiped the Auto Bolt Rifle team, and the Abberants did a good job wrecking the line of grey marines, leaving only two alive afterwards. But the two grey intercessors, and the Hellblaster that were in melee range actually did some damage in return. Not too much but they killed off a couple. The Patriarch killed two marines and injured one.

Turn three, the marines near the Patriarch fell back, and the Inceptors flew forwards, along with the Stalker Bolt Rifle guys. The Librarian and a bunch of nearby intercessors just piled into melee with the Abberants, as well as the Captain in Gravis. The Dreadnought walked around the tank, blew the Biophagus away with storm bolters and then unloaded the rest of it's guns into the Abominant, killing it, before charging into the Abberants itself.

The Inceptors unloaded on the Patriarch and killed it with help from the Stalkers, though admittedly, my opponent forgot his warlord trait and relic and I didn't know what they were or what they did. Which might have saved him. (Shadowstalker and the Voidwyrm Amulet?) The Abberants managed to finish off the grey dudes, only to be killed down to two guys (They removed models towards the edges, taking them out of combat with the Librarian and one of the Intercessor squads.)

Turn three for the Genestealers,

Genestealers move up, and then charge the remaining three intercessors and the Inceptors taking heavy damage in the process. The Alpha, Kellermorph, and Sentinels shoot at the Suicide squad, killing one more of the three inceptors on the other side of the table. Genestealers manage to kill another two Intercessors and don't scratch the Inceptors, before getting beaten half to death with fists, leaving around half the 20 left. The rest of the marines finish off the two remaining Abberants. And it was at this point the game was called. Because he'd been relying on the Genestealers to provide the muscle to finish me off, and they were rapidly losing a fight with a bunch of Intercessors and Inceptors, with ready reinforcements nearby.

Was pretty fun, but with how much stuff we just outright forgot at times, I dunno whether to blame this on Iron Hands and Marines 2.0 being that much better? Or him being more used to me playing Ad-Mech where Genestealers go through Skitarii like a hot knife through butter.

[Turalisj]

You need more terrain man.

[druid91]

You need more terrain man.

The tanks are actually meant to be improv terrain, as is the dewalt thing. That's why I popped the turret out of the unpainted skorpius. But yeah. This battle was relatively low terrain because it was more of a 'Hey, we've got a table now, let's have a game. we haven't played in like, a year.' Improv game and we just kinda grabbed the terrain we had nearby.

[Squark]

the dewalt thing

Clearly a piece of dark age Archeaotech of great power and value.

[Cheesegear]

That's why you're better off running Aggressors in Repulsors.

I was right.
Big Brain Salamanders' play is currently spamming Aggressors in spammed Repulsors.
15 Aggressors in 3 Repulsors is going to become the new Gatekeeper list.
Drop Pods are confirmed bad.

Posted from phone.

[Drasius]

So, now that I'm about half way through getting my knights painted and being thoroughly sick of orange, obviously it's time to consider my next project. In a bizarre turn of events, about half of what I like about DE is actually good, so I wrote some lists that I'd like to get some input on and refine into something playable.

I'm rather partial to Ravagers, Raiders, Reavers, Kabalites, Incubi and RWJF, so 4 out of 6 ranging from decent to best in dex is fortuitous. So, given that I'd like to be competitive, dizzies are the best thing in the book and I like every source of them...

Spoiler: Core

Show

Flayed Skull Battalion
72 - Archon, Splinter Pistol, Venom Blade, Warlord, Obsidian Veil, Tenacious Survivor
72 - Archon, Splinter Pistol, Venom Blade

94 - 10x Kabalites, 2x Blasters
94 - 10x Kabalites, 2x Blasters
94 - 10x Kabalites, 2x Blasters

125 - Ravager, 3x Dizzies
125 - Ravager, 3x Dizzies
125 - Ravager, 3x Dizzies

80 - Raider, Dizzy
80 - Raider, Dizzy
80 - Raider, Dizzy

Flayed Skull Air Wing
135 - Razorwing Jetfighter
135 - Razorwing Jetfighter
135 - Razorwing Jetfighter

1446 points and 9 CP

From there, I'm thinking one of two directions;

Spoiler: Plane spam

Show

Flayed Skull Battalion
72 - Archon, Splinter Pistol, Venom Blade, Warlord, Obsidian Veil, Tenacious Survivor
72 - Archon, Splinter Pistol, Venom Blade

94 - 10x Kabalites, 2x Blasters
94 - 10x Kabalites, 2x Blasters
94 - 10x Kabalites, 2x Blasters

125 - Ravager, 3x Dizzies
125 - Ravager, 3x Dizzies
125 - Ravager, 3x Dizzies

80 - Raider, Dizzy
80 - Raider, Dizzy
80 - Raider, Dizzy

Flayed Skull Air Wing
135 - Razorwing Jetfighter
135 - Razorwing Jetfighter
135 - Razorwing Jetfighter

Flayed Skull Air Wing
165 - Void Raven Bomber, Missiles
165 - Void Raven Bomber, Missiles
165 - Void Raven Bomber, Missiles

That's 1941, maybe add 5 splinter cannons between the kabalite squads and the RWJF's and give the Archons their huskblades back.

Feels light on troops but heavy on memes.

Alternately;

Spoiler: Moar Troops

Show

Flayed Skull Battalion
72 - Archon, Splinter Pistol, Venom Blade, Warlord, Obsidian Veil, Tenacious Survivor
72 - Archon, Splinter Pistol, Venom Blade

94 - 10x Kabalites, 2x Blasters
94 - 10x Kabalites, 2x Blasters
94 - 10x Kabalites, 2x Blasters
94 - 10x Kabalites, 2x Blasters
94 - 10x Kabalites, 2x Blasters
94 - 10x Kabalites, 2x Blasters

125 - Ravager, 3x Dizzies
125 - Ravager, 3x Dizzies
125 - Ravager, 3x Dizzies

80 - Raider, Dizzy
80 - Raider, Dizzy
80 - Raider, Dizzy
80 - Raider, Dizzy
80 - Raider, Dizzy
80 - Raider, Dizzy

Flayed Skull Air Wing
135 - Razorwing Jetfighter
135 - Razorwing Jetfighter
135 - Razorwing Jetfighter

That's 1968. Heavier on troops and the blasters almost make up for the loss in void lances/dark scythes. Could trade a RWJF for a voidraven with the spare points.

Alternately, trading a squad of Kabalites and their raider for quad haywire scourges might give me some more anti-tank.

While I think either option should be reasonably competitive, a) I don't know how well 6 planes would go on getting around the board, b) how well I would deal with infantry spam (though 60ish dizzy shots should do pretty well!) And most importantly c) do I really want to paint so many of what is effectively the exact same models?

Bonus question: is it worth going black heart over flayed skull for writ of the living muse and labrythine cunning? Both Archons are nothing but auras and even with investment, they don't seem worth it, but the extra move, ignores cover, rr1's to hit for rapid-fire and +1 to hit fliers strat from flayed skull feels like it outweighs a 6+++, turn 3 morale immunity and access to agents of vect strat, so it's the warlord trait and relic that needs to make up a large amount of ground.

[Forum Explorer]

So, first game with the new Iron Hands rules.

Spoiler: Iron Hands Battallion

Show

HQ
Captain in Gravis Armor: Boltstorm Gauntlet, MC Power Sword. Warlord: Student of History, All Flesh is Weakness (Paragon of Iron) Relics: Helm of Tempering
Primaris Librarian: Force Sword, Pistol, Grenades Relics: Gorgon's Chain (Forget the name of the strategem, gives you an extra relic.)
Primaris Lieutenant: Bolt Pistol, MC Stalker Bolt Rifle, Grenades.

Troops
5x Intercessor Squad with Auto-Bolt Rifles.

5x Intercessor Squad with Bolt Rifles.

5x Intercessor Squad with Bolt Rifles.

5x Intercessor Squad with Bolt Rifles.

5x Intercessor Squad with Stalker bolt Rifles

Elites
Redemptor Dreadnought, 2x Storm Bolters, Heavy Onslought Gatling Cannon, Onslought Gatling Cannon, Icarus Rocket Pod and Redemptor Fist. Made into a Character with March of the Ancients and given Merciless Logic with Hero of the Chapter.

Fast Attack
3x Inceptors with Assault Bolters

3x Inceptors with Assault Bolters

3x Inceptors with Plasma Exterminators.

Heavy Support

5x Hellblasters, Plasma Incinerators.

Spoiler: Genestealers

Show

So, not entirely certain of the roles his dudes are, so just listing by units/characters.

Characters
Biophagus
Abominant
Magus (Mass Hypnosis,???)
Patriarch (Mass Hypnosis, Might from Beyond)
Jackal Alpha (Sniper on Dirtbike that gives +1's to shoot)
Kellermorph

Units
10x Neophytes with Lasguns
10x Neophytes with Lasguns
Goliath Rock-Truck with a Heavy Flamer
- Inside said truck 5x Acolytes
3x Armored Sentinels
20x Genestealers
10x Abberants

Where is the rest of his army? From what you've put down, he's only spent aproximately 1300 points to your 1400. You might have missed something.

[druid91]

Where is the rest of his army? From what you've put down, he's only spent aproximately 1300 points to your 1400. You might have missed something.

That's all the units. The numbers on the Neophytes are approximate as I didn't count them. I generally don't check his lists or his math. Could probably go look on his scratch paper. We were both aiming for 1500.

[Cheesegear]

I tried painting an Infiltrator the same way as my bases, 'cause obviously how do you 'Infiltrate' when your models are bright yellow?

Spoiler

Show

Halfway through painting I had to stop 'cause I realised I was just painting a harder-to-paint, and-also-worse, version of Space Wolves'.
I've never put a model in Dettol before I've even finished painting it.

[Drasius]

Pic doesn't work for me.

[Cheesegear]

Pic doesn't work for me.

It appears that you can/can't see Imgur links, based on your Browser. I didn't do anything differently than when I posted the Huntsman in my house... Or, since then, has Imgur changed their tech again?
...But I posted an image the other day of a yellow Feirros from Imgur?

In any case, it's terrible. Because the only thing worse than being Space Wolves, is trying to be Space Wolves, and failing.

[Drasius]

It appears that you can/can't see Imgur links, based on your Browser. I didn't do anything differently than when I posted the Huntsman in my house... Or, since then, has Imgur changed their tech again?
...But I posted an image the other day of a yellow Feirros from Imgur?

Funny you should mention the huntsman, I saw a nice brown w/ white stripes one yesterday climb out of the work ute on site.

In any case, it's terrible. Because the only thing worse than being Space Wolves, is trying to be Space Wolves, and failing.

I dunno, being a woof by an accident of birth is one thing, but actively trying to be a woof is pretty bad. But then you're failing to be something terrible, so I guess it's a wash and turns out neutral.

Might just be me, but I thought you were going for a stone sort of look, which would have been pretty cool with the right basing.

[Renegade Paladin]

The SoCal Open is almost over, and Iron Hands are nowhere to be seen in the top tables.

[LansXero]

The SoCal Open is almost over, and Iron Hands are nowhere to be seen in the top tables.

Out of over 20 Asuryani, none at the top tables; this clearly means that I was right and the Craftworlds codex is in dire need of a buff to bring it back into being playable :p.

[Drasius]

The SoCal Open is almost over, and Iron Hands are nowhere to be seen in the top tables.

Out of over 20 Asuryani, none at the top tables; this clearly means that I was right and the Craftworlds codex is in dire need of a buff to bring it back into being playable :p.

Righto, if there's no IH and no Eldar, who the hell is in the top 8 then?

Edit: Tau winners, White Scars 2nd, BA/DW/RG 3rd.

[LansXero]

Righto, if there's no IH and no Eldar, who the hell is in the top 8 then?

Round 6

Finals: Tau vs Imperial Knights
Table 2 Ultramarines vs. BA/DW and some Raven Guard
Table 3 White Scars vs. Custodes
Table 4 Imperial Guard vs. Raven Guard

[Drasius]

Apparently 14 out of the top 20 were marines.

Feels bad man.

[Avaris]

Apparently 14 out of the top 20 were marines.

Feels bad man.

Surely that depends on how similar the armies and their play styles are? If they’re all one chapter, sure, but sounds like there’s a good variety being used.

[Cheesegear]

The SoCal Open is almost over, and Iron Hands are nowhere to be seen in the top tables.

I think it's too early for Iron Hands at a major tournament.
People don't have their armies together yet, and definitely not painted.

Halfway through building their army, The Ironstone got nerfed, which means that the archetype people were building, became incompetant overnight. Making them need to start from scratch. Bringing your Raven Guard should be easy, because nothing changed from 8.1 to 8.2, except 'More Eliminators'. And I think most people managed to get 3-9 models painted in a month.

Also, Impsulors only came out two days ago. Impuslors change everything.

If Iron Hands were at the top tables, I'd be surprised considering the Supplement is only a month old, and thus barely legal for tournament play.

I strongly suspect White Scars and Ultramarines to make solid showings, though.

EDIT: Ultramarines and White Scars...Who knew?

[Drasius]

Surely that depends on how similar the armies and their play styles are? If they’re all one chapter, sure, but sounds like there’s a good variety being used.

If 70% (!) of the top 20 are from a single army book (supplements don't count), then the remaining 30% needs to be shared between the 18 other armies. That's not even remotely close to balanced, that's about the same level of dominance that 7th eldar had - possibly worse! There's already people who are refusing games against IH players in scenes earily reminiciant of what happened after everyone was sick of getting tabled by scatbikes, spiders and WK's.

I think it's too early for Iron Hands at a major tournament.
People don't have their armies together yet, and definitely not painted.

Halfway through building their army, The Ironstone got nerfed, which means that the archetype people were building, became incompetant overnight. Making them need to start from scratch. Bringing your Raven Guard should be easy, because nothing changed from 8.1 to 8.2, except 'More Eliminators'. And I think most people managed to get 3-9 models painted in a month.

Also, Impsulors only came out two days ago. Impuslors change everything.

If Iron Hands were at the top tables, I'd be surprised considering the Supplement is only a month old, and thus barely legal for tournament play.

I strongly suspect White Scars and Ultramarines to make solid showings, though.

EDIT: Ultramarines and White Scars...Who knew?

There was plenty of IH at the pointy end of the field, Nick Nanavati was playing them, there were a few triple repulsor executioner on skyshield rolling around too.

As for Ultras and WS being good, well, most of the top end players I've heard have been saying Ultras were top tier in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing, but I hadn't heard anything at all about WS, so that surprised me. I would have thought that RG would have got more traction with being able to brutalise characters.

I wonder how much ITC changes things compared to running vanilla rules, hell, I wonder if I'm the only one who doesn't play ITC by default these days.

[Meatgrinder]

As for Ultras and WS being good, well, most of the top end players I've heard have been saying Ultras were top tier in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing, but I hadn't heard anything at all about WS, so that surprised me. I would have thought that RG would have got more traction with being able to brutalise characters.

White Scars have a bunch of movement shenanigans (like Assault Centurions charging 22"). That automatically makes them top-tier.

[Avaris]

If 70% (!) of the top 20 are from a single army book (supplements don't count), then the remaining 30% needs to be shared between the 18 other armies. That's not even remotely close to balanced, that's about the same level of dominance that 7th eldar had - possibly worse! There's already people who are refusing games against IH players in scenes earily reminiciant of what happened after everyone was sick of getting tabled by scatbikes, spiders and WK's.

In all seriousness, why shouldn’t supplements count? If everyone is using the same codex in the same way (eg using Iron Hands) that’s bad, but in theory the supplements encourage different playstyles. The reason you don’t want dominance by one faction is stagnation and repetitive gameplay, so in theory supplements can deliver this.

I say in theory because I’m not up to date with the different lists being used: if a Raven Guard list is 75% the same as an Ultramarines list that’s bad, but I don’t see why supplements should simply ‘not count’.