In PF, how would you optimize for soloing Rappan Athuk?

[icefractal]

Was "Monsters as PCs" ever actually removed? I still see it in the SRD, and while the ARG rules cover similar ground, I don't recall seeing anything official about replacing them.

[Powerdork]

Excellent question! I opened up the Advanced Race Guide to check, and it's inconclusive.

Here's the argument that it replaces.

This chapter features numerous examples of races
designed with the race builder. Sidebars early in the
chapter offer detailed examples of races found in the
Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, Bestiary 2, and Bestiary 3 that would
normally have racial Hit Dice, skills, and other abilities. PC
members of such races, however, calculate these benefits
based solely on their class. Note that these races are only
an approximation of their monstrous counterparts and
may not match exactly. Later in the chapter, sidebars detail
entirely new races created using the race builder rules.
Lastly, the final section of the chapter breaks down the
points and abilities of core races and many of the featured
and uncommon races.

Here's the argument that it's optional.

Lastly, a few examples of new and monstrous races
are presented throughout [Chapter 4: Race Builder], allowing you to
insert even more racial diversity into your Pathfinder
game without having to build a new race from whole
cloth. Incorporate them as presented, or pick them apart
and rebuild them yourself. You have the tools now—the
possibilities are endless.

[Kraynic]

Orcus being ancient is why his terrible feats make sense: he picked them before better modem advances existed.

If I am looking at the right publication dates, it looks like the Rappan Athuk for Pathfinder release was meant to hit for Christmas 2011 but missed by a couple weeks. The material they had to work with looks like it was primarily Core, APG, and Bestiary 1 & 2. Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic were released 5-7 months before Rappan Athuk, so probably weren't used at all.

If people want to be fair to the module, they would only use the content for characters that was available when the module was written. Or edit the module to include all the shiny stuff players (and monsters) have received since then.

So, yes, that version of him is ancient as far as published material goes.

[Quertus]

If I am looking at the right publication dates, it looks like the Rappan Athuk for Pathfinder release was meant to hit for Christmas 2011 but missed by a couple weeks. The material they had to work with looks like it was primarily Core, APG, and Bestiary 1 & 2. Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic were released 5-7 months before Rappan Athuk, so probably weren't used at all.

If people want to be fair to the module, they would only use the content for characters that was available when the module was written. Or edit the module to include all the shiny stuff players (and monsters) have received since then.

So, yes, that version of him is ancient as far as published material goes.

Would the ancient Orcus crawl into an otyugh hole (or Pathfinder equivalent) to retrain his feats when some mortal developed better tech?

IMO, is not just totally fair, it's the most fun kind of fair to beat someone like Orcus with new tech that they're not familiar with.

However, if Orcus is known as a bleeding-edge and tactically-adept adapter to new advances, then, yes, he should be updated (and should have already been updated by whoever owns his rights, if they want him to maintain that reputation).

[legomaster00156]

One survives as a demon lord only by being able to adapt to new threats.

[Kraynic]

However, if Orcus is known as a bleeding-edge and tactically-adept adapter to new advances, then, yes, he should be updated (and should have already been updated by whoever owns his rights, if they want him to maintain that reputation).

Ah, so we just blame the publisher if they don't update/upgrade their modules every time a new splat book is published. Got it.

[tiercel]

Would the ancient Orcus crawl into an otyugh hole (or Pathfinder equivalent) to retrain his feats when some mortal developed better tech?

IMO, is not just totally fair, it's the most fun kind of fair to beat someone like Orcus with new tech that they're not familiar with.

Umm... just because books came out after RA doesn’t mean the tech only sprang into existence in the last few years in campaign time — I don’t think anyone is suggesting that necessarily, e.g., Ordained Champions were only invented recently because Complete Champion is one of the last 3.5 books. Also:

For one thing, in a more optimized universe, a zillion-year-old primal Abyssal threat like Orcus should be more optimized or have been permadead a zillion years ago, but for another thing, if anything like the Dark Chaos Shuffle exists anywhere in the entire universe then presumably Orcus has access to it.

[Quertus]

I think that presuming that a guy hiding out in a defensible position in Rappan Athuk for however many hundreds or thousands of years has access to anything outside that position is a questionable stance to take.

[Kaouse]

Neither warlord (or pally) Cha to saves or maneuvers are needed to achieve 29+ to your saves. And as is usually the case, also in the final fight against Orcus you actually only need to worry about a high Fort and Will, not Ref, and only to (Su), (Sp) and spells, most notably vs fear (Will DC 41 aura) and death (Fort DC 40 on melee hit with Orcus' wand). Here are some example numbers from two initiator builds I've previously posted on GitP, both admittedly intended as defenders, but optimized mainly for melee control and active defense (not for high passive defense numbers specifically):

Nelly Nephilim Monk 1, Warlord 1, Wilder 1, Warder 1, Zealot 6, Awakened Blade 10:
AC 52, touch 22, flat-footed 39; +5 dodge vs traps (14 armor, 8 natural, 8 shield, 2 Dex, 5 deflection, 6 insight, 5 dodge, -4 size, -2 rage)
Fort +34 (8 Con, 3 awakened blade, 2 monk, 2 warder, 2 warlord, 5 zealot, 5 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye))
Will +35 (5 Wis, 5 awakened blade, 2 monk, 2 warder, 2 wilder, 5 zealot, 5 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 6 insight (Stance of the Inner Eye), 2 morale (rage))
+5 profane to AC and saves vs attacks and effects caused by shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering enemy (Black Seraph Style)
Combat Reflexes, uncanny dodge & improved uncanny dodge, 55' melee reach, dirty trick CMB +75 (also as AoO), Improved Trip CMB +92

Eddie Pincerhand (progressed to 20th) Monk 4, Warder 10, Barbarian 2, Formless Master 4
AC 50, touch 28, flat-footed 41 (15 armor, 10 natural, 7 shield, 4 Dex, 5 deflection, 5 dodge, -4 size, -2 rage)
Fort +30 (8 Con, 3 barbarian, 4 monk, 7 warder, 2 formless master, 5 resistance (piercings), 1 competence (pale green prism))
Will +29 (7 Wis, 4 monk, 7 warder, 2 formless master, 2 resistance (piercings), 1 competence (pale green prism), 4 insight (crystal mask of mindarmor), 2 rage)
+5 profane to AC and saves vs attacks and effects caused by shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering enemy (Black Seraph Style)
+5 to saves vs mind-affecting (Abomination Shift)
+4 to saves vs fear (rallying armor)
50% chance to avoid SA or crit damage and effects (Sensory Shift)
SR 20, ignores first 12 death effects (Scarab of Protection)
Combat Reflexes & uncanny dodge, 55' melee reach, grab CMB +84 (maintain as AoO), Greater Trip CMB +93

Note that it's unlikely Orcus can activate his aura of fear before he's at the very least shaken if fighting either of the above example builds (meaning they both will likely make the save on a roll of 2+). Both these builds also have access to maneuvers to increase the above numbers considerably, such as Lord of the Pridelands (Golden Lion 9th) for up +10 morale to attack, damage, AC and saves for one round, and both may initiate that maneuver each round and still typically have a lot more actions left than Orcus has per default. IOW, I'd sure put my money on Orcus and his cronies being the only ones peeing their proverbial pants in fear in a fight against either of these two. (For a more detailed example opening round in a high CR encounter, check out Nelly above against the CR 30 demon lord Pazuzu and three CR 25 balor lords here.)

Sure, but at that point the whole tromp l'oeille idea has become highly dependent on GM fiat rather than hard RAW, and therefore it has most likely also been reduced to not much more than a weapon to use on the final levels rather than a strategy to solo the entire adventure. And at least AFAICT from skimming through the adventure, those final levels are probably going to be the easiest for an optimized PC (or party) regardless of any aid from a construct copy of Orcus.

This is cool. I also made a build optimized for defense and control a while back. It's a straight level 20 Mageknight with the Martial Mageknight and Doomblade archetypes:

Quin T. Ence
His AC is 43, but thanks to Active Defense and Combat reflexes, it's mostly an even 50. Thanks to Quickened Reflexes, he can spike that up further to an AC of 60, though Quickened Reflexes costs spell points to use. Thanks to Unarmored Training and Deflecting Shield, all of his AC also applies against Touch. He also has Uncanny Dodge, to prevent himself from being flat-footed.

His saves are all +33, and he has both Stalwart and Evasion, as well as a few Protection Sphere Aegis abilities to mitigate some of the more well known "no save, just suck" abilities in the game (emotion effects, alignment effects, & death effects, all of which increase his morale bonus on saves against those things by a further +3 to 36 and forcibly always grant him a save). The Safety rally even lets him reroll a failed save once per round.

Where he really shines is physical damage mitigation though. Thanks to the unbreakable Mystic Combat, he can temporarily gain DR 20/-, on top of resilient momentum that allows him to reduce the damage of an attack by 7 (casting mod) without an action, temp hp that can be refreshed each round as a free action, and a delayed damage pool that turns into nonlethal damage when emptied. Against massive spike damage, he can even use Disperse Force to negate a single threat per round.

Offensively, he relies on abusing Ghostly Admixture to inflict negative levels with each of his attacks. With Thanatopic Spell, even undead and people warded by Death Ward aren't safe. He also has Time Thief's Admixture, forcing opponents to make saves with each attack, or become dazed via Steal Time, which also gives him another standard action attack. Thanks to Greater Admixture, he can combine the two. And thanks to Maximize Spell and all of his attacks being touch attacks, he can generally output a decently high DPR.

Against Orcus, it's not exactly a guaranteed victory. Generally, it takes 2-3 full attacks for Quin to take down Orcus. The trick is going first, then debuffing the heck out of him with negative levels to make surviving the retaliation a lot easier. Thanks to his +22 Initiative though (compared to Orcus's +10), this shouldn't be too difficult.

The weakness of this build is the ludicrous amount of spell points it costs to do...pretty much anything. Quickened (+4) Maximized (+3) Thanatopic (+1) Greater Admixture (+2) Ghostly Admixture (+1) Drain (+1) Taint Soul (+1) Time-Thief's Admixture (+1) Steal Time (+1) Stone Blade = 15 spell points. Stays a swift action though. Which is important if I want to full attack with it.

Then there's the cost of using all of my Mystic Combats, which can be set to free actions thanks to Time Shift (which will notably be nerfed in the upcoming Ultimate Spheres of Power errata). Thanks to the capstone, Time Shift itself doesn't cost any spell points, but everything else I use it with certainly does. Unbreakable, Quickened Reflexes, Mystic Adaptation and Swift Combatant are all things I'd likely be using from round 1, and in the case of Swift Combatant, something that might be necessary to spam (free action movement is amazing, even if it still provokes).

Still, I think it's a pretty strong and defensible build. Doesn't have the reality warping powers of a caster, nor the longevity of an initiator, but I still think it's one of my best late game martial builds.

Eventually, I'll make a level 20 Aegis, just to see how crazy it can get with the 3pp^2 (I.e. non-DSP, and non-DDS) support.

[Sleven]

I'm surprised this is still going.

I think that presuming that a guy hiding out in a defensible position in Rappan Athuk for however many hundreds or thousands of years has access to anything outside that position is a questionable stance to take.

The most questionable element of tiercel's stance throughout this thread is the implication that just because something has a higher CR it should automatically be better than whatever the player has, and thus unbeatable by said player's character. I just can't help but fundamentally disagree.

[Kraynic]

I think that presuming that a guy hiding out in a defensible position in Rappan Athuk for however many hundreds or thousands of years has access to anything outside that position is a questionable stance to take.

Hmm, I wasn't aware that was the lore of that dungeon. I thought it started with a cult and eventually (perhaps relatively recently) an avatar of orcus has moved in. I'm not sure it is even specified that it spends all its time there. Orcus definitely doesn't live there. He lives in the Abyss.

[Kraynic]

The most questionable element of tiercel's stance throughout this thread is the implication that just because something has a higher CR it should automatically be better than whatever the player has, and thus unbeatable by said player's character. I just can't help but fundamentally disagree.

That isn't just tiercel's stance. It is the stance of the authors, though I am too lazy to go track down the text at the moment. If you have destroyed the shrines, you have a chance though it is supposed to be very difficult. If you haven't destroyed any of them, the best you are supposed to be able to do is flee through the portal that is the only exit to the area. And somewhere in between those 2 if you have only destroyed 1 or 2 of the shrines. They have suggested baseline tactics with instructions for the DM to alter those as they see fit to adapt to what the party has been able to do battling their way through Rappan Athuk. This encounter is supposed to adapt to the party on a scale of difficult to impossible depending on the shrines.

[tiercel]

I think that presuming that a guy hiding out in a defensible position in Rappan Athuk for however many hundreds or thousands of years has access to anything outside that position is a questionable stance to take.

It is arguable that it is a questionable stance to assume that Orcus does *literally nothing, ever* other than maybe start buffing himself when he knows PCs are coming to try to kill him. I mean, he’s got a portal right there and a whole raft of spells he can cast to get around, presumably.

But assuming that we are going for a 100%-literal Orcus on His Throne scenario:

<battle-scarred demon survivor of remnant of Orcus’s second temple>: *cowering before Orcus* Dread Master! It was like nothing we’ve ever seen! Their mage, his spells evaded our defenses!

<Orcus>: Would-be-clever mortals! *chuckling evilly, casts embrace the dark chaos and then shun the dark chaos* Now their little tricks... are mine. Their every seeming victory only ensures their painful and inevitable demise! *crunches skull of battle-scarred demon survivor*

<various undead and demons>: *hiss, cackle, and cavort at the prospect of another coming gruesome victory for Orcus*

The most questionable element of tiercel's stance throughout this thread is the implication that just because something has a higher CR it should automatically be better than whatever the player has, and thus unbeatable by said player's character. I just can't help but fundamentally disagree.

Actually, what I take issue with is the idea that the players should automatically have better builds than anything the module contains, because PCs are built using the accumulated op-fu chicanery of decades of message board discussions and the BBEG isn’t, despite the fact that in-world the BBEG should in principle have access to any build option that PCs do.

If anything, the BBEG should have access to *more* options, given that he is allegedly a zillion years old, still alive—or clawed back into/from undeath, depending on your Orcus timeline—and has the resources of an entire megadungeon and Prime Material cult and however many layers of the Abyss and the accumulated wealth and minions thereof, and, oh yeah, zero moral compunctions about pursuing power.

This is not Orcus’s first rodeo. If a party of four 20th level characters can mow him down, on his home ground, with demonic and undead cohorts and rabble about him, much less in one round, then this Orcus should have been permadead a zillion years ago due to all the Abyssal nasties he’s presumably mixed it up with.

Now if the philosophical problem here is “it’s stupid to have an end-of-the-dungeon-boss that the PCs are supposed to lose to”—which is the module’s explicitly stated aim—then the encounter can be reskinned as with an Aspect of Orcus rather than with Orcus himself. Even then the aspect should be re-optimized to give a given set of PCs a rough challenge to merit, e.g. not only calling the end fight EL 25 vs a 20th level party but actually making it that difficult.

If the PCs’ op-fu is so strong compared to the boss battle that they have a 90%+ chance of one-rounding Orcus, then Orcus is literally not even a CR 20 threat to that party, much less one who deserves his backstory, to say nothing of his mental stats.

[upho]

Would the ancient Orcus crawl into an otyugh hole (or Pathfinder equivalent) to retrain his feats when some mortal developed better tech?

Presumably, the game includes the retraining rules, which of course anyone with Orcus' enormous wealth and power would be able to make great use of. And in terms of verisimilitude, I'd personally find it hard to believe that anything can survive as a demon lord for millennia without being pretty darn bleeding edge.

I think that presuming that a guy hiding out in a defensible position in Rappan Athuk for however many hundreds or thousands of years has access to anything outside that position is a questionable stance to take.

He's not hiding out, and AFAICT the adventure also never claims he has been. His apparently most important cult on the particular planet on the Material Plane where the GM places Rappan Athuk is/has been (mostly) hiding out. Which of course is a very different matter, even though the temples built by this cult obviously are an unusually important source of power for Orcus' visiting avatar "The Master". But for all we know, Orcus himself were presumably alive and kicking also during the centuries when his main cult on this planet on the Material Plane were in hiding, including the years before they built the portal to the pocket plane - and possibly the plane itself - where "The Master" can be found by the PCs in this adventure. (If RA is taking place on Golarion, the parts of the official material on the setting's "Major Demon Lord" Orcus relevant in this context (summaries here and here) fits with the related info in RA pretty well.)

It is arguable that it is a questionable stance to assume that Orcus does *literally nothing, ever* other than maybe start buffing himself when he knows PCs are coming to try to kill him. I mean, he’s got a portal right there and a whole raft of spells he can cast to get around, presumably.

This.

IMO, is not just totally fair, it's the most fun kind of fair to beat someone like Orcus with new tech that they're not familiar with.

I think there are numerous things the PCs face in RA as written which the authors don't describe as having been intentionally designed to be virtually unbeatable for PCs of the recommended level (like they do in the case of Orcus), but which I'm pretty certain most of us would nevertheless consider far less "fair" than a better matching less easily beaten Orcus with an updated and more optimized selection spells and feats.

But regardless of all the above, I also think you've got a point in the sense that if a lone PC survives the rest of the adventure as written, one could say at least the player has earned the right to have their PC face also Orcus as written and ROFL-stomp him into paste. It wouldn't be the kind of ending the author intended, of course, but then one has to wonder why he made several of the earlier encounters so much more deadly when faced at the recommended level. I suspect that a major reason for this, besides the author's relative lack of op-fu, is that it appears the final level and fight hadn't been nearly as properly tested, if at all, as (I assume) especially the first half of the dungeon:

This level is the final page of adventure within the halls of Rappan Athuk.In 25 years of GMing and playtesting, it has never been reached, let aloneconquered. This level should be treated as the epic finale of many years ofplay. It is neither forgiving nor fair. Here in this small pocket plane, connectedto both the Material Plane and the Abyss itself, the party encounters theavatar of a demon prince with its full powers and many servants. This levelis incredibly dangerous, and no one may survive travel here even withoutencountering Orcus himself. Remember, this is not a computer roleplayinggame. There are no cheat codes to kill Orcus. The PCs are not supposedto win. If they have survived this far, they are powerful and foolhardy. YetOrcus’ avatar should prove more than a match for them. This is the end.Good luck!

Actually, what I take issue with is the idea that the players should automatically have better builds than anything the module contains, because PCs are built using the accumulated op-fu chicanery of decades of message board discussions and the BBEG isn’t, despite the fact that in-world the BBEG should in principle have access to any build option that PCs do.

In the context of the question posed in the OP of this thread, I think it's more relevant to ask whether RA's internal consistency with regards to difficulty should be kept as written or changed to better match with the very explicit intentions when it comes to the final fight against Orcus. IOW, should a relatively easy encounter in what is otherwise one the most difficult adventures so far published for PF be kept as written even when it's explicitly intended to be the "epic finale" and the only one the "PCs are not supposed to win"?

Unless the OP says otherwise, we can't assume their question refers to anything other than RA as written, and to me that means also Orcus' actual stat block should be kept as written rather than the far more abstract intentions and erroneous beliefs stated by the author. And this is completely regardless of our own opinions on the matter in terms of design, fun, fairness, verisimilitude or anything else.

But assuming that we are going for a 100%-literal Orcus on His Throne scenario:

It's pretty clear this isn't the case in RA. The PCs don't fight Orcus in his own realm in the Abyss, but his avatar on a pocket plane between the Material Plane and the Abyss, and if they destroy the avatar they're banishing Orcus from the Material Plane for 666 years (and he can be properly killed within a year if faced in his own realm in the Abyss according to 1PP material).

The most questionable element of tiercel's stance throughout this thread is the implication that just because something has a higher CR it should automatically be better than whatever the player has, and thus unbeatable by said player's character. I just can't help but fundamentally disagree.

Well, at least if we're talking about mechanical abilities, that is actually what the CR system says - or at the very least heavily implies - should be the case, since it's basically what CR is supposed to be a measure of. The fact that this often isn't the case in practice, as we all know, may be another matter, but one that at least IMO also means it's a waste of time to discuss how well Orcus' CR matches the challenge he presents to a particular party or his abilities in comparison to those of particular PCs. We can however say with certainty that in comparison to at least some CR 30 1PP opponents, Orcus is rated way too high.

If the PCs’ op-fu is so strong compared to the boss battle that they have a 90%+ chance of one-rounding Orcus, then Orcus is literally not even a CR 20 threat to that party, much less one who deserves his backstory, to say nothing of his mental stats.

Of course, but in that sense it's not like Orcus' rating being off against such a party makes it stand out, as that would very likely be true also for the CR of every other published opponent. Not to mention that if we start using CR as some kind of measure of intended challenge, we'd have to change a large majority of the monsters in the adventure to better suit with their CR against each particular party or PC we're discussing.

But again, yes, Orcus' CR relative his mechanical power is definitely way too high also when compared to the CR in relation to power of virtually all high-CR 1PP opponents AFAIK.

[Sleven]

Actually, what I take issue with is the idea that the players should automatically have better builds than anything the module contains [...] If anything, the BBEG should have access to *more* options

While I'm all for optimized monsters and challenging BBEGs with access to the same tools the players have (I never said I wasn't, so this seems a needless strawman)...

You say this as if player characters aren't supposed to be exceptional as well. That's why they get something better than the elite array, why they get actual class levels from the beginning to end of their career instead of crappy HD, why they tend to achieve their goals where others have failed, etc. A PC's character isn't just your average level 6 wizard, it's THE wizard of the campaign or module you're playing in. You're free to play differently, but the expectation remains. Just if you are going to play that way, do it with some class and not some nonsense fiat "rocks fall because muh CR" victory. Otherwise you're robbing yourself of a learning experience and players who have more to offer than just riding a railroad.

This level is the final page of adventure within the halls of Rappan Athuk.In 25 years of GMing and playtesting, it has never been reached, let aloneconquered. This level should be treated as the epic finale of many years ofplay. It is neither forgiving nor fair. Here in this small pocket plane, connectedto both the Material Plane and the Abyss itself, the party encounters theavatar of a demon prince with its full powers and many servants. This levelis incredibly dangerous, and no one may survive travel here even withoutencountering Orcus himself. Remember, this is not a computer roleplayinggame. There are no cheat codes to kill Orcus. The PCs are not supposedto win. If they have survived this far, they are powerful and foolhardy. YetOrcus’ avatar should prove more than a match for them. This is the end.Good luck!

This is so asinine. The module creators (just like any DM) are susceptible to getting outplayed. That's life. The fact that they even feel the need to make this appeal shows their impotency, incredulity, and a lot of other "i" words I can think of. They could have done it honestly by giving Orcus divine ranks or epic spellcasting while strategically keeping enough XP out of the players' hands to prevent their own epic spellcasting. But no, they make a laughable attempt to encourage a DM to run what amounts to a fiat table. No dice, no fun, no tactics--just "I said so at the end of it all". The fact of the matter remains: they chose to keep his power at a certain level, and past level 17-18 there really is very little difference between one caster and another. And at those levels, combat typically hinges on a single round. You want to boo hoo about it? That's the d20 system, love it or hate it.

[upho]

You say this as if player characters aren't supposed to be exceptional as well. That's why they get something better than the elite array, why they get actual class levels from the beginning to end of their career instead of crappy HD, why they tend to achieve their goals where others have failed, etc. A PC's character isn't just your average level 6 wizard, it's THE wizard of the campaign or module you're playing in. You're free to play differently, but the expectation remains. Just if you are going to play that way, do it with some class and not some nonsense fiat "rocks fall because muh CR" victory.
/snip/
This is so asinine. The module creators (just like any DM) are susceptible to getting outplayed. That's life. The fact that they even feel the need to make this appeal shows their impotency, incredulity, and a lot of other "i" words I can think of.

It seems to me you're misinterpreting both what tiercel and the author says and especially their reasons for saying so. When reading also the other comments and advice given by the author, my impression of his stance can be summarized as "This is a damn difficult and often mercilessly unfair adventure which frequently tries to outplay the players and their PCs, so those who actually survive and manage to beat Orcus have truly earned their bragging rights". And since no sane GM with a modicum of experience runs this adventure without first making certain the players actually want to play this kind of game (or to play powerful PCs properly challenged), RA is difficult - as advertised - out of respect for the players.

So when tiercel talks about how Orcus' abilities should be changed to better match with the CR and challenge he's supposed to present, I can only interpret also that as ultimately being about not failing the players by having them discover the so-called "major demon lord" über-BBEG is some weak fool who doesn't even know how to pick his spells and feats, and the entire gigantic adventure ending in some lame anticlimactic cakewalk of a fight. And of course, an end like that hardly proves the players or their PCs to be particularly exceptional.

Note also that the final fight against Orcus is not supposed to be unbeatable if the temples have been destroyed, just very difficult, as appropriate.

They could have done it honestly by giving Orcus divine ranks or epic spellcasting while strategically keeping enough XP out of the players' hands to prevent their own epic spellcasting. But no, they make a laughable attempt to encourage a DM to run what amounts to a fiat table. No dice, no fun, no tactics--just "I said so at the end of it all".

Whoa, no, it appears you're jumping to a lot of conclusions here based on a few sentences which the author clearly didn't mean quite as literally.

First, the PF equivalent to epic spells - Mythic spells - and the entire subsystem they're a part of didn't exist when RA was published. If the Mythic rules had existed, I'm fairly certain Orcus would've had the max 10 mythic ranks along with custom Mythic abilities (like Cthulhu and the demon lords given stats by Paizo).

Second, as mentioned the author does not say the PCs shouldn't stand a chance even if the temples are destroyed, but that it should be a small one. He keeps emphasizing this extreme difficulty also in various parts of the encounter description and the related GM advice, making it clear that this final fight is intended to be an even greater challenge than anything the PCs have managed to survive earlier in the adventure (which is saying something).

The fact of the matter remains: they chose to keep his power at a certain level,

Yes, because the PCs actually should have a chance if the temples are destroyed. I suppose we - especially us outliers in the hobby discussing this here on GitP - might argue that the author would've been wiser to simply state that Orcus is flat-out invincible unless the temples are destroyed instead of giving that version stats, as we know that will inevitably result in players/PCs proving the stats aren't working as intended sooner or later. But also because the author's intents and expectations are so very explicitly stated in this case, I find it very hard to believe the inclusion of those stats has had any noticeable impact on any real play-through of RA, nor that it was intended "to encourage a DM to run what amounts to a fiat table".

and past level 17-18 there really is very little difference between one caster and another.

True, but keep in mind that at least the (supposedly invincible) "no temples destroyed"-version of Orcus as written is likely more easily beaten by a high-op martial than a caster (especially SR 46 and other very high defense values weakens otherwise effective caster tactics significantly). And while I'm certain this rare martial advantage wasn't intended, I nevertheless appreciate the change of pace.

And at those levels, combat typically hinges on a single round. You want to boo hoo about it? That's the d20 system, love it or hate it.

Indeed.

[Sleven]

It seems to me you're misinterpreting both what tiercel and the author says [...] Whoa, no, it appears you're jumping to a lot of conclusions here based on a few sentences which the author clearly didn't mean quite as literally.

It's possible, but at least in the author's circumstance, I find a high degree of implication that he's insisting/making an appeal to the DM that the characters shouldn't win this one. It sure sounds a lot to me like, "this is the end, don't let the players outplay you, Orcus is better because I said so just now." I might be inclined to see his words more along the lines of your interpretation if there was any indication or leeway in them hinting that they could win.

Of course, this is where communication comes into play. In a rules-heavy system, I tend to take an author's words far more literally than I would in other contexts because it's a far more efficient way to parse them.

RA is difficult - as advertised - out of respect for the players.

Which as I said before, I'm entirely in support of. What I'm not in support of is assuming you have all the angles figured to the point that a certain outcome is inevitable, and then trying to force your way to that outcome when you're wrong. The CR assumption is just one of many indicators of someone who endorses this kind of game/table, as experience has taught me. So it's entirely possible I'm being unfair.

the author does not say the PCs shouldn't stand a chance even if the temples are destroyed, but that it should be a small one. He keeps emphasizing this extreme difficulty also in various parts of the encounter description and the related GM advice, making it clear that this final fight is intended to be an even greater challenge than anything the PCs have managed to survive earlier in the adventure (which is saying something).

I haven't read the module out of respect for the DM and the challenge, so if you have some more of the author's notes you'd like to share that do show an indication that the player can win I'd be more than happy to admit I was wrong. Once again, I'm basing this off of the quote you did share.

[upho]

It's possible, but at least in the author's circumstance, I find a high degree of implication that he's insisting/making an appeal to the DM that the characters shouldn't win this one. It sure sounds a lot to me like, "this is the end, don't let the players outplay you, Orcus is better because I said so just now."

Nah, it's obvious the author believed the stats he gave Team Orcus would be enough to make the encounter somewhere between "absolutely unbeatable" and "extremely difficult" depending on the number of temples destroyed, when run according to his instructions and the PF RAW without any GM fiat (at least against any group of six players and PCs he imagined playing RA in a real game).

I might be inclined to see his words more along the lines of your interpretation if there was any indication or leeway in them hinting that they could win.

How 'bout (my emphasis):

Spoiler: Author comments and encounter info indicating the PCs could win:

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Consequences: Now the fight begins! If the PCs lose, their souls are devoured and they are forever dead. If, on the other hand, they win, Orcus is banished from the Material Plane for 666 years. The GM should take care with this, as all priests of Orcus lose their ability to cast spells of 7th to 9th level for 666 years!

Special Note to the GM: If the PCs are to have any chance, they must have destroyed the evil temples on Levels 4, 9, and 14. If they have not,the avatar has his full powers and is absolutely unbeatable. For each shrine destroyed, the demon prince is weakened, and his ability to hold mortal form and fight the PCs is diminished. As you will note, only if all three shrines were destroyed is there really any hope of the PCs ridding the planet of this evil god.

Treasure: [there's a whole lot of it]

Experience: It is left to the individual GM to award experience for this encounter as there are too many variables. Needless to say, encountering Orcus, even if the PCs flee through the teleportation circle, should be worth enough experience to gain a level.

As a sidenote, again I find Orcus' CR 35, not to mention the certainty expressed by the author whenever referring to the power of Orcus as written, not just sadly comical and embarrassing, but also a bit confusing. Because while most of the other combat encounters in the adventure I've looked at are pretty straight-forward, they're decently well designed, and their CR and any comments he makes on their difficulty reasonable. And some of the opponents employ surprisingly unconventional yet smart tactics and/or weird and truly nasty shenanigans full of flavor, and the effectiveness is reflected in the encounter CR. In my mind this, along with his very reasonable advice regarding for example the more powerful "robbers" a party may face outside the dungeon and the above quote regarding xp for surviving Team Orcus, indicates he normally has a pretty good grip on CR and the actual power of various different combos of mechanics and tactics.

Of course, this is where communication comes into play. In a rules-heavy system, I tend to take an author's words far more literally than I would in other contexts because it's a far more efficient way to parse them.

FWIW, I tend to do the same. But in this case I don't find it problematic that the author sometimes mixes up his advice and instructions (but never actual rules elements like stat blocks) with descriptive comments not as strictly necessary to run this kind of extremely mechanics-driven dungeon crawl. I think most readers quickly learn to recognize which comments not to be taken literally by their slightly hyperbolic and/or ironic tone, and like me also find they actually often help get the general idea behind parts of the adventure across.

Which as I said before, I'm entirely in support of. What I'm not in support of is assuming you have all the angles figured to the point that a certain outcome is inevitable, and then trying to force your way to that outcome when you're wrong.

While I personally welcome a bit of well hidden GM fudging to say correct a mistake in preparations or save a fun/interesting part of the adventure from being ruined by fluke, I would probably be more hesitant if I hadn't also been spoiled with fantastic GMs who first learn their players' preferences and then fudge accordingly. So yeah, I would definitely leave a game if the GM turned out to have serious control issues they try hide behind mechanics tailored to render the players/PCs unable to meaningfully affect the narrative. And it certainly wouldn't help if the GM also resorted to obvious fiat because their lack of system-fu might otherwise cause them to lose control over their precious script.

Once again, I'm basing this off of the quote you did share.

I can definitely see how that quote might give the wrong impression when taken out of the specific context relevant in my reply to Quertus.

The CR assumption is just one of many indicators of someone who endorses this kind of game/table, as experience has taught me. So it's entirely possible I'm being unfair.

Well, more generally speaking, I also associate things such as the CR assumption, not to mention the inclusion of mechanics to resolve an event which is explicitly expected and intended to have only one outcome, with a type of adversarial/competitive GM style I've realized actually exists but which I've thankfully never experienced.

But I must say this doesn't seem to apply to RA, while it appears the adventure's general unfairness and deadliness are greatly exaggerated in a lot of the claims people make about it (including in this very thread). Yes the old-school style is certainly preserved, and it's intentionally designed to be difficult, with many opponents using far smarter, dirtier and deadlier tactics than they would in a typical modern adventure, but it's not even remotely as wacky or insanely lethal as say the original Tomb of Horrors. When run according to the instructions and GM advice it's AFAICT highly unlikely adventurers who are careful, methodical and suitably paranoid will accidentally run into any surprise TPKs, even if taking the most straight-forward route through the first five main levels.

And speaking of, now that I've had a more proper look at the first levels, I believe my earlier suspicions about RA being near impossible to solo were wrong. At least if the GM advice/guidelines are followed, treasure and xp awards remain as written and at least all lower level/cheaper magic items can be easily traded, also with slow or even half normal level progression I'm now pretty certain an optimized Master Summoner starting as early as 5th would be able to solo the entire adventure. AFAICT, such a build could have the combat effectiveness, wide range of skills/utility and staying power to quite reliably survive the first four main levels of the dungeon, which in turn should generate more than enough treasure and xp to improve the build's success chances to be at the very least on par with those of the sorta mid-op party of six the adventure seems to be designed for.

[tiercel]

As a sidenote, again I find Orcus' CR 35, not to mention the certainty expressed by the author whenever referring to the power of Orcus as written, not just sadly comical and embarrassing, but also a bit confusing.

To be fair, there are a couple of abilities that Orcus as written has in all his forms that can be seen as pumping his effective CR a pretty fair bit, depending on the DM’s proclivity for doing so to the hilt, especially the second:

Spoiler

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1). Summoning demons — this shouldn’t necessarily be unexpected, but adding up to 3 balors or around 7 mariliths (specifically atop the mariliths already present) isn’t nothing, but more to the point

2) Summoning undead — Orcus can summon 100HD of any undead (including, specifically, templated undead). If Orcus has any idea what the party is or does he can tune this ability — depending on the party’s composition, mobbing them with shadows might not actually be terrible, but book-diving and designing Orcus’ summons, yikes — “even” 4 semi-optimized 20th level liches should be, to put it mildly, a real problem. (Also, recall that all undead in the Boss Fight room, including the prestocked rabble, are fiat unturnable, and presumably could share Orcus’s and each other’s buffs.)

Given that summoned monsters in principle don’t add to the EL of an encounter because they are supposed to be accounted for in the CR of the summoner... Orcus’s summons alone could be 3x CR 20, 4xCR 22, or around EL 27 not counting environmental buffs for the level or room. It’s debatable whether that pushes Orcus all the way to CR 35, but it presumably establishes a bit of a floor as to his “actual” CR, and means this is one BBEG fight where action economy is not necessarily on the PCs’ side — Orcus summons can each have actions that are meaningful threats vs PCs, never mind that PCs looking to even the odds with battlefield control may find Orcus-liches, never mind Orcus himself, battlefield controlling right back at them.

Also note that Orcus should almost certainly have time to do his summoning before the Big Fight, and arguably should know *something* about the PCs even at bare minimum from demons’ encounters with them on this level.

[upho]

To be fair, there are a couple of abilities that Orcus as written has in all his forms that can be seen as pumping his effective CR a pretty fair bit, depending on the DM’s proclivity for doing so to the hilt, especially the second:

First, I think you may have missed a very important sidebar found on three different pages, because Orcus doesn't have those abilities in all forms, and in a real game I think you'll agree it would be highly unlikely he'll have any of them when facing PCs who have managed to find his lair:

Spoiler: What the sidebar says

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For each shrine the PCs manage to cleanse, the Master gains 2 effective negative levels. In addition, if one shrine is cleansed, the Master loses the use of his 9th level spells. If 2 shrines are cleansed, the Master loses all his summoning spell-like abilities. If all 3 shrines are brought low, the Master is reduced to the following: DR 15/cold iron and good, SR 36, all At will Spell-Like Abilities are usable 1/day, and he loses the use of all Domain and Class Spell-Like Abilities.

(My emphasis.)

It's extremely improbable PCs who start at a reasonably early character level will find a path back and forth through the dungeon to Orcus which never passes through the shrine on level 4, or one which makes them somehow miss the almost equally obvious second shrine on level 9. And I suspect it's even more improbable the PCs won't destroy the shrines, as even though they most likely won't realize it directly affects Orcus, they'll still at least want to render the shrines' useless for any surviving cult members or undead. Not to mention that finding and destroying the shrines (and the cult) may be the very reason why many PCs or parties want to explore RA in the first place.

Second, in the hypothetical scenario of a lone high-op PC facing Orcus at full power, I doubt even the most powerful of these abilities will necessarily have enough impact to actually alter the outcome of the fight:

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1). Summoning demons — this shouldn’t necessarily be unexpected, but adding up to 3 balors or around 7 mariliths (specifically atop the mariliths already present) isn’t nothing, but more to the point

Practically any PC build I can think of which could achieve the combat values required to stand a chance against Orcus himself would barely register 3 balors, as their combat stats simply aren't high enough to matter. And 7 mariliths would probably have about as much impact on the outcome as 7 goblins.

2) Summoning undead — Orcus can summon 100HD of any undead (including, specifically, templated undead). If Orcus has any idea what the party is or does he can tune this ability — depending on the party’s composition, mobbing them with shadows might not actually be terrible, but book-diving and designing Orcus’ summons, yikes — “even” 4 semi-optimized 20th level liches should be, to put it mildly, a real problem. (Also, recall that all undead in the Boss Fight room, including the prestocked rabble, are fiat unturnable, and presumably could share Orcus’s and each other’s buffs.)

Yes, if this works as you say, it could definitely make the fight incredibly difficult, if not flat-out impossible if the GM knows how Orcus can get the most out of it. However, per RAW I believe summon (Sp) abilities can only summon generic creatures, never unique individuals (just as the SM line of spells the ability is based on), which of course limits the customization possibilities of the summoned undead significantly and in turn their usefulness. And while the most powerful generic undead - like say a great wyrm red dragon ravener (underrated CR 24) - are certainly dangerous foes to most parties, as in the case of the balors, their actually relevant numbers likely wouldn't be sufficiently high to really matter against most high-op PCs able to take out Orcus.

And it's probably worth noting these summoning SLAs can only be cast during Orcus' own turn and the summoned creatures remain for 1 hour. Which is a long time for summon spell, but may still turn out to be too short for casting them before combat since Orcus doesn't initiate the fight as written. So he may need/want to save especially his far more powerful 1/day summon undead for his first turn to ensure he at least has a chance of benefiting, which of course also means the summons won't be able to help protect him against one-shot tactics as neither Orcus himself or any of his minions are likely to win initiative.

That said, if the summon undead ability can be properly timed, if nothing else it might at least provide a real advantage simply due to the summoned creatures' potentially great size and many hp, acting like a mobile wall of flesh which may protect Orcus against for example charge shenanigans.

(As an example, the mentioned Master Summoner build would likely first buff herself and her 15-20 or so minions to the high heavens. As a comparison, that's most likely more than 300 hd of augmented flying Gargantuan CR 14+ minions, plus maybe two CR 22 psychopomp "lieutenants" with cleric levels. Then she'd win initiative with her +35 or greater bonus and start by having her minions storm the room before she herself dives in on her falcon at up to 440 ft. speed (enough to ignore a large majority of BFC effects/abilities) and full attack Orcus with her 10 pistols from within 60 ft. Each of her 14 attacks would hit on a roll of 2+ vs touch AC, have at least a 50% chance to crit - even should Orcus somehow not be flat-footed - and ignore all cover, concealment and wind spell defenses, dealing enough total average damage to kill the poor demon lord almost twice over.)

Given that summoned monsters in principle don’t add to the EL of an encounter because they are supposed to be accounted for in the CR of the summoner... Orcus’s summons alone could be 3x CR 20, 4xCR 22, or around EL 27 not counting environmental buffs for the level or room. It’s debatable whether that pushes Orcus all the way to CR 35, but it presumably establishes a bit of a floor as to his “actual” CR, and means this is one BBEG fight where action economy is not necessarily on the PCs’ side — Orcus summons can each have actions that are meaningful threats vs PCs, never mind that PCs looking to even the odds with battlefield control may find Orcus-liches, never mind Orcus himself, battlefield controlling right back at them.

Well, at least in theory and assuming a more "average" party I agree this is a valid point. The problem is that in practice such a party has basically been turned into obedient little wights the second they roll initiative if they face Orcus as written at full power, completely regardless of whether he uses one or more of his summon SLAs. And again, a PC actually capable of posing a real threat to Orcus at full power will most likely also not be significantly hindered by any of his comparatively very weak summoned minions, so the PC might very well still have the actual action economy advantage even should Team Orcus be able to perform ten times as many actions per round.

In short, these abilities provide lots of hd, but most likely no or very few actually relevant numbers. And again, since there are fewer builds able to stand a chance against say CR 30 Cthulhu...

But it may of course be that my way of looking at high CR ratings is actually off, and the theoretical challenge a creature poses to "average" low-op parties is the only relevant measure.

[tiercel]

First, I think you may have missed a very important sidebar found on three different pages, because Orcus doesn't have those abilities in all forms, and in a real game I think you'll agree it would be highly unlikely he'll have any of them when facing PCs who have managed to find his lair

Hm, well poor editing one way or the other, since under Orcus’s actual entry specifically:

Spoiler: Orcus entry, Book 2

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In All Forms: Orcus has the following abilities regardless of his condition:
... <many abilities snipped>...

Summon Undead (Sp): As their prince, Orcus can automatically summon up to 100 HD of any type of undead each day. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell.

Second, in the hypothetical scenario of a lone high-op PC facing Orcus at full power, I doubt even the most powerful of these abilities will necessarily have enough impact to actually alter the outcome of the fight:

Spoiler

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Practically any PC build I can think of which could achieve the combat values required to stand a chance against Orcus himself would barely register 3 balors, as their combat stats simply aren't high enough to matter. And 7 mariliths would probably have about as much impact on the outcome as 7 goblins.

Yes, if this works as you say, it could definitely make the fight incredibly difficult, if not flat-out impossible if the GM knows how Orcus can get the most out of it. However, per RAW I believe summon (Sp) abilities can only summon generic creatures, never unique individuals (just as the SM line of spells the ability is based on), which of course limits the customization possibilities of the summoned undead significantly and in turn their usefulness.

I wasn’t even considering the case of any lone PC *or* party reaching Orcus at full power, if for no other reason than that presumably anyone seeking to face Orcus (1) had to level up somewhere (2) has no objection to ridding the world of one of Orcus’s major cults (3) if having anything like the knowledge necessary to face Orcus, will have learned/researched/divinationed/Knowledge-cheesed their way into knowing about Orcus’s temples, or else, are just 100% completionist adventurers, right down to the silly goblin city.

Additionally, I wasn’t really worried about ridiculously epic PCs (solo or party) given that “balance” and “epic” seems... no... to me. (Plus, Orcus’s stats barely seem to make much use of Epic, despite the purported CR.) I was more interested in what seemed to be claims here that ~20th level PCs could defeat or even curbstomp Orcus as presented, and in that case...

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...if we are talking about anything close to 20th level PCs, multiple balors certainly aren’t nothing.

Additionally, RA’s text in the 3.5 version of level 15 specifically allows Orcus to summon specific templated undead: “Orcus prefers to summon shadows, as he can summon a large number of them and they are unturnable and can gang up on his enemies and drain Strength. He also likes to summon vampires (Ftr18, with appropriate equipment such as +3 armor and +3 weapons; or Clr16, with similar equipment).” If Orcus can specifically summon vampires with class levels, presumably he could just concentrate on full-caster liches instead, never mind whatever other templated/advanced/class-leveled casting-undead are available....

This assumes that Orcus’s “in all forms” explicit stats trump the sidebar notes. Losing such massive summoning AND 9th level spells would seem a bigger blow to Orcus’s power and CR than the authors would seem to think, admittedly....

[upho]

Hm, well poor editing one way or the other, since under Orcus’s actual entry specifically:

Ah, seems the 3.5 version differ from the PF version then, and the latter doesn't include the details about these abilities you quoted. Hmm... I assume the sidebar I quoted also differ. What does the 3.5 version of that say?

I wasn’t even considering the case of any lone PC *or* party reaching Orcus at full power, if for no other reason than that presumably anyone seeking to face Orcus (1) had to level up somewhere (2) has no objection to ridding the world of one of Orcus’s major cults (3) if having anything like the knowledge necessary to face Orcus, will have learned/researched/divinationed/Knowledge-cheesed their way into knowing about Orcus’s temples, or else, are just 100% completionist adventurers, right down to the silly goblin city.

Yep, it's highly unlikely to happen in a real game.

Spoiler: Spoilered just in case...

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I mentioned it because a PC/party would have to avoid the shrines for Orcus to still have the mentioned powerful abilities in the PF version, and because a few previous posts discussed the hypothetical scenario of a PC going solo against Orcus at full power.

Additionally, I wasn’t really worried about ridiculously epic PCs (solo or party) given that “balance” and “epic” seems... no... to me. (Plus, Orcus’s stats barely seem to make much use of Epic, despite the purported CR.)

But I wasn't talking about an epic PC (epic doesn't even exist in PF), and not even about one with Mythic tiers (the closest equivalent to epic in PF), just a 20th level Master Summoner with some greater than normal WBL from going solo through the dungeon and having done a bit of crafting (no infinite money cheese or similar). Those 300+ hd of minions are btw coming from her frankly stupid SM IX SLA alone (she'd likely have at least 18/day), pimped up with a few summoning feats and items, and the psychopomps (who would likely fight Orcus free of charge) come from greater planar binding (still very powerful in PF, but not anywhere near as powerful as the 3.5 version).

I was more interested in what seemed to be claims here that ~20th level PCs could defeat or even curbstomp Orcus as presented, and in that case...

Again, a single high-op 20th level PC could defeat Orcus as written at full power. Again, that's without 3.5 epic levels, PF Mythic tiers, questionable interpretations of RAW or anything generally banned or regarded as particularly cheesy AFAIK (with the possible exception of the class and archetype of the build I mentioned, but that's mostly great for surviving the dungeon and frankly not very good at fighting Orcus for the same reasons his summoning isn't very good against high-op PCs). An entire party of no less than six equally high-op PCs would of course ROFL curbstomp Orcus so far back into the Abyss he likely wouldn't dare return even after 666 years!

That said, in the hypothetical scenario where he still has the abilities as written in the 3.5 version, as mentioned I agree even a party of very high-op PCs might very well find this fight extremely difficult, since in that case Orcus himself is probably not the greatest threat.

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...if we are talking about anything close to 20th level PCs, multiple balors certainly aren’t nothing.

Three balors aren't nothing, but I honestly find it very hard to see how they'd actually matter against PCs who are fully capable of killing Orcus himself at full power as written in the PF version. Take a look at his basic combat numbers alone and think for a moment about what the corresponding numbers of such PCs must be for that to be true, and what those of balors are. If you do, it shouldn't be particularly surprising that for example a single initiator like mentioned Nelly can casually take out three of their CR 25 bigger brothers even outside her own turn, or that their offense would be practically useless against her if she'd choose to simply ignore them instead. Balors are simple brutes in relation to their CR, easily dealt with also for quite a few martials at this level. (I don't think even a lone high-op PF fighter 20 would have much reason to fear fighting twice as many, and some builds might very well take out all six in the first turn).

The thing that does matter is of course if Orcus can summon say a bunch of GM-tailored high-op undead full casters with 10 mythic tiers, as each one of those could very well pose a greater threat than Orcus himself.

This assumes that Orcus’s “in all forms” explicit stats trump the sidebar notes. Losing such massive summoning AND 9th level spells would seem a bigger blow to Orcus’s power and CR than the authors would seem to think, admittedly....

Definitely.

[tiercel]

Ah, seems the 3.5 version differ from the PF version then, and the latter doesn't include the details about these abilities you quoted. Hmm... I assume the sidebar I quoted also differ. What does the 3.5 version of that say?

In the 3.5 version, each sidebar only reads thus:

Spoiler: Shrines of Power, Rappan Athuk Reloaded

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The unholy shrines in this dungeon, of which this is the first, provide power to the demon prince Orcus and his avatar, the “Master.” To cleanse the area of evil, PCs must destroy and consecrate each unholy shrine. Additionally, destroying the unholy shrines weakens Orcus’ avatar, making it possible for a high-level party to defeat him on Level 15.

(I should note that I only have the 3.5 version, and don’t know PF well enough to comment on PF PCs and abilities.)

Again, a single high-op 20th level PC could defeat Orcus as written at full power.

At sufficiently high-op, a PC could defeat anything once Pun-Pun, various infinite loops are on the table. Philosophically, my point is that if infinite loops—or even other, non-infinite-loop, high-op tricks—are on the table, it seems artificial to allow PCs to use them, but not Orcus, even though he is by lore a zillion years old and has zero moral qualms about seeking power.

Also there are certain mechanics that seem a little too easy to ignore, which is one more spike in the CR system. Generally I find that official CRs overvalue Spell Resistance, for instance. In Orcus’s case (again, 3.5 version),

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SR 63 (fully powered) or even SR 45 (completely depowered) should, in principle, be a real problem for someone with CL even around 20, not to mention summons.

Admittedly, the direct solution is to cherry-pick every SR:No spell ever, which is one of the reasons SR and even 3.5 Magic “Immunity” are often take too seriously by CR — but I consider this to be a general problem in the magic system, how much “nonmagic magic” there is. What is the point of having the game system even having defenses against magic that don’t stop magic? Even so, such summons (i.e. Evil) as aren’t hedged out on Orcus’s level should find that their spells and SLAs mostly can’t do anything to Orcus, assuming they aren’t also allowed to cherry-pick.

In terms of high CRs generally, though, given the general power of full casters with even moderate optimization, much less above 15th level or so, I’d probably argue that it’s hard to create a genuine challenge of CR 20+ that doesn’t include 9th level casting to oppose the PCs, so

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stripping Orcus of access to any 9th level spells or effects would almost seem to hard cap his actual challenge to something rather less than CR 20, admittedly — which is fine if the aim is to have a more typical “end boss” fight for a 15th-20th level party, depending on optimization level and other factors, but hardly the “Orcus gonna crush your souls” apparent stated intent.

[upho]

In the 3.5 version, each sidebar only reads thus:

Interesting.

Spoiler: Shrines of Power, Rappan Athuk Reloaded

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The unholy shrines in this dungeon, of which this is the first, provide power to the demon prince Orcus and his avatar, the “Master.” To cleanse the area of evil, PCs must destroy and consecrate each unholy shrine. Additionally, destroying the unholy shrines weakens Orcus’ avatar, making it possible for a high-level party to defeat him on Level 15.

I noted the 3.5 version of Orcus has a higher SR than the PF version in all forms (very reasonable considering how much more problematic SR typically is in PF), but are the actual effects of destroying all three shrines otherwise similar to those of the PF version I quoted?

(I should note that I only have the 3.5 version, and don’t know PF well enough to comment on PF PCs and abilities.)

It appears to me the power of the PF version suffers from having been written back when there wasn't nearly as much PF content as there is now, and the PF CR rating is consequently even more off.

At sufficiently high-op, a PC could defeat anything once Pun-Pun, various infinite loops are on the table.

This is an area where 3.5 and PF differ quite considerably, as a very large majority of 3.5 TO tricks don't exist in PF, and no PC builds even remotely close to Pun-Pun are possible.

Likewise, I'm not talking about TO stuff here; neither the mentioned summoner - a 6/9 caster (albeit with native access to many spells usually of a higher level, but still largely irrelevant in my example) - or any other build I've imagined able to beat PF Orcus as written would need any TO tricks or even 9th level spells. In fact, the builds I've thought of so far would use primarily martial combos merely buffed with lower level spells via UMD to take out Orcus. Here's another example I've touched upon in a previous post:

Spoiler: Meet the "Prize Fighter from Hell"

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If you find it plausible a PC with say at least a +25 initiative and a 240'+ (Ex) fly charge speed would be able to charge or just full attack one of Orcus' allies within 60' of him, even a 20th level high-op PF human fighter focused on Intimidation and performance combat could practically end the fight in the same turn with near 100% certainty, scaring Orcus into cowering for easily more than 10 rounds and all his allies within 60' which aren't immune to mind-affecting or fear for easily more than twice as many rounds. (The DC to demoralize PF Orcus is 64 (10 + 45 hd + 9 Wis), most likely lower than this fighter's Intimidate bonus.) Btw, an initiator build with a bit of a similar Intimidation focus, such as the two I mentioned, would even remove any immunity to fear and mind-affecting enemies within 30' may have.

This fighter could very well also be able to easily dispel any spell within his 30'+ melee reach which isn't cast by Orcus himself, using simple sunder attempts and ignoring any miss chances caused by spells (none of Orcus' allies are likely to have anywhere near high enough CMD or CL to matter even the slightest against his sunder CMB of probably +70 or more). And that's on top of the same fighter also easily multiple rounds dazing any of Orcus' allies who attempts to move within the fighter's melee reach at any point, even by teleportation.

This "Prize Fighter from Hell" (named so for his extreme combat prowess and performance combat and damnation feats) is of course very high-op, but still firmly in the realm of PO IMO, using no infinite loops, commonly banned feats like Leadership, or any high level spells. The above combos are to a very large degree based only on combat feats, fighter (archetype and VMC barbarian) class features, and items with passive benefits, including no spells above even 3rd.

And while it's IMO a very good thing that PF high level martials can have considerably more combat power and PF casters have access to far less crazy TO shenanigans than their counterparts do in 3.5, things like the above still just shouldn't be possible against a CR 35 enemy. The same goes for how easily the party a poster here mentioned won that last encounter.

Philosophically, my point is that if infinite loops—or even other, non-infinite-loop, high-op tricks—are on the table, it seems artificial to allow PCs to use them, but not Orcus, even though he is by lore a zillion years old and has zero moral qualms about seeking power.

I agree. And at least to me even more importantly, if I used "cakewalk"-Orcus as written in the grand epic finale of this adventure, I think a lot of players - especially those in my regular group - would be very disappointed.

Also there are certain mechanics that seem a little too easy to ignore, which is one more spike in the CR system. Generally I find that official CRs overvalue Spell Resistance, for instance. In Orcus’s case (again, 3.5 version),

As far as I can remember the related stuff in 3.5, that seems very much to be the case, yes. And while SR isn't as easily ignored and penetration checks can't be boosted nearly as high in PF, it appears it still has been overvalued in at least this case.

Spoiler

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SR 63 (fully powered) or even SR 45 (completely depowered) should, in principle, be a real problem for someone with CL even around 20, not to mention summons.

Just in case you got the wrong impression, in the example I mentioned with the solo Master Summoner, the summons would be near worthless against Orcus himself even if he had no SR at all, his other defense values being too high anyways. The two psychopomps could at least theoretically be able to affect him by for example using a firearms combo similar to that of the summoner herself, but I didn't take that into consideration.

In terms of high CRs generally, though, given the general power of full casters with even moderate optimization, much less above 15th level or so, I’d probably argue that it’s hard to create a genuine challenge of CR 20+ that doesn’t include 9th level casting to oppose the PCs, so

While this is less the case in PF, I can agree that

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stripping Orcus of access to any 9th level spells or effects would almost seem to hard cap his actual challenge to something rather less than CR 20, admittedly — which is fine if the aim is to have a more typical “end boss” fight for a 15th-20th level party, depending on optimization level and other factors, but hardly the “Orcus gonna crush your souls” apparent stated intent.