Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

[Wraith]

I have my first 10th Edition game coming up this weekend after completely sitting out 9th.

Frankly, I'm terrified.

It's a 1000pts game, nominally a gentle reintroduction while we both relearn the rules. I'm taking my Primaris Dark Angels for a grand total of 34 models (no I haven't over-spent on Bladeguard or Hellblasters!) whereas my opponent is bringing Orks - all ~70 of them.

The disparity between Quality vs Quantity Armies has always been a thing, but this feels especially pronounced and I don't think that Intercessors are THAT much 'Quality'. I dare not look at what my Grey Knights would look like in 1000pts, I'm pretty such it'd just be a Brother-Captain and his pet dog or something...

[Cheesegear]

It's a 1000pts game, nominally a gentle reintroduction while we both relearn the rules. I'm taking my Primaris Dark Angels for a grand total of 34 models (no I haven't over-spent on Bladeguard or Hellblasters!) whereas my opponent is bringing Orks - all ~70 of them.

I think the biggest disparity isn't that there are 70 Orks.
...The disparity is that Orks are T5, and Boltguns are only S4...And also; There's 70 of them.

There's a joke here that Infernus Marines (out of the brand new Leviathan box) are objectively terrible except against this exact opponent. Scalpers on the Leviathan box are struggling to try and even give the Infernus Marines away (at least where I hang out).

The disparity between Quality vs Quantity Armies has always been a thing...

Not exactly.
I think the disparity between "You, taking what you want" and "Me, taking what I want" has grown significantly, because the game isn't equal. It never has been, of course. But as I said, it's grown. Half of everything just feels useless, even against the stuff it appears to be designed for. As I said previously, I think this is because Toughness (and Wounds) has gone up, whilst Strength (and Damage), hasn't.

I like this edition.
But I can't not admit that huge sections of peoples' collections are unplayable. This always happens at the turn of a new edition. But this 10th Ed. shift just seems to have cut a swathe. That said; I struggle to conceptualise the meta shift as a "S5 OP; Nerf S4." More of a general "This is the way it is, now...For everyone." It's kind of hard to be mad when the blade hasn't specifically fallen on me and mine, I guess. Just a general flattening of the curve. Deal with it.

Uhh...Where was I...

Good luck!
(Especially with terrain placement)

[Wraith]

By "disparity" I wasn't criticising, just mostly meaning, some armies have lots of weak troops, some armies have fewer elite troops. No one is surprised that a Termagaunt used to cost 1/5th of a Terminator because - in very broad terms - it was a roughly equal fight.

But 1 Primaris Intercesser absolutely does not represent the equal of 2 Ork Boys, even before you take into account the extras paid for other units and leaders. There's give and take always, but it's now very stark that what is "your basic dude" actually matters a lot more than it used to.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I predict it will cause a lot of upset before it levels out.

But I can't not admit that huge sections of peoples' collections are unplayable.

My list is mostly so small because my Bladeguard used to be Storm Shield'd Company Veterans, I was just using Bladeguard minis to Count As because I wanted an all-Primaris modelling theme. I can't complain too loudly because I'm still left Bladeguard which are fine, but it sucks for all my Bladeguard Ancient models and Apothecaries who can no longer join their squad. Maybe I can finangle something similar with Command Squad or Vanguard....

[9mm]

I have my first 10th Edition game coming up this weekend after completely sitting out 9th.

Frankly, I'm terrified.

It's a 1000pts game, nominally a gentle reintroduction while we both relearn the rules. I'm taking my Primaris Dark Angels for a grand total of 34 models (no I haven't over-spent on Bladeguard or Hellblasters!) whereas my opponent is bringing Orks - all ~70 of them.

The disparity between Quality vs Quantity Armies has always been a thing, but this feels especially pronounced and I don't think that Intercessors are THAT much 'Quality'. I dare not look at what my Grey Knights would look like in 1000pts, I'm pretty such it'd just be a Brother-Captain and his pet dog or something...

Conversations among my club has definitely settled on how Combat Patrol is amazeballs when coming back to this game and edition, and that people like me going straight into a 2000 pt game are psychos.

[Wraith]

Obviously this is conjecture based on not having experienced the game properly or any thing else apart from experience and gut-instinct, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if it turns out that 10th edition has a 'sweet spot' somewhere around 1700pts, just like 6th and 7th edition.

Much less than that and people can't use all their cool stuff; much more than that and the game becomes a slog of having more than you really know what to do with.

That's probably not a bad thing, as I certainly don't want to go back to the old days of spending 4 hours playing 4 turns. At the same time that sounds like its being built around tournament-sized games, and that sort of meta has always been a detriment to everyone else in the meta by warping the 'normal' perception of what an army should be and how it performs. I hope to be pleasantly surprised, but suspect I probably won't be.

[Cheesegear]

Obviously this is conjecture based on not having experienced the game properly or any thing else apart from experience and gut-instinct, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if it turns out that 10th edition has a 'sweet spot' somewhere around 1700pts, just like 6th and 7th edition.

It's a little subjective. How long do you want your games to take? Take that time, and find the right points.

Currently I'm getting through 2000 Points in juuust over 2 hours. I'm guessing that number comes down once wargear has points.

Much less than that and people can't use all their cool stuff; much more than that and the game becomes a slog of having more than you really know what to do with.

I think that's more of a player issue.

At the same time that sounds like its being built around tournament-sized games, and that sort of meta has always been a detriment to everyone else in the meta

It is. But I feel as though you're wrong on the commentary.
You don't get to say "Two Orks do not equal an Intercessor" and then say that.

Because it sounds like either a) Intercessors should come down in points, or b) Orks should be more expensive.
...Altnernatively everything is fine as it is and anyone who believes in "balance" is competitive and therefore badwrong.

Alternatively alternatively - and this is much more realistic:
"My friend bought a box of [X], and I bought a box of [Y]. The boxes cost the same; But I'm the one getting reamed every time. What gives!? "

As I said previously; Where I believe the disparity is (and I've noticed this getting worse and worse since 7th Ed.; Since GW released Saim-Hann Jetbike Boxes), is that "Two players just having a [fair/balanced/"competitive"] game with (only) What They Like, each" is becoming harder and harder to do. The second your opponent puts a Land Raider, or Imperial Knight on the table (and do not, for a second, try to tell me that your opponent doesn't also "like" those models as a hobbyist), a whole chunk of your army because borderline useless before Turn 1 has even started. And don't even get me started on the idea of T6, T7 Infantry - that's crazy. WTF are Guardsmen even supposed to do, now? Lasguns literally bounce off your opponent's Infantry. I super hope you've built your army correctly, or you're ****ed. Sure wish there was some kind of uhh...Competitive...Way to build Guardsmen because your opponent having T6, 3W Infantry as a Battleline unit (yes, really*) is a thing that can actually happen.

"What You Like != What Is Good", and, "Half of everything feels useless, now." are two sides of the same coin, and one of the reasons why I started writing Guides in the first place way, way back. You and your opponent can spend the same amount of currency on the hobby...But your opponent's army is Just Better than yours. Even though you both are hobbyists. Why is that? How do you fix it? What can be done?

*Bafffed. Baffled I tells you.

[9mm]

Currently I'm getting through 2000 Points in juuust over 2 hours. I'm guessing that number comes down once wargear has points.

I personally will be fine if wargear doesn't cost points (prefer it even), but there is no way the UI in the app makes any sense if it doesn't again soon.

WTF are Guardsmen even supposed to do, now? Lasguns literally bounce off your opponent's Infantry.

Do what they always do, die as ablative wounds for the special and heavy weapons in the squad and screen for the vehicles that doing the actual work.

People were complaining that their tanks were dying too fast and GW listened, and now I get to browse /r/competitive40k and have a laugh at supposedly undefeated triple hammerfall bunkers.

[Cheesegear]

I personally will be fine if wargear doesn't cost points (prefer it even)

It's Power Rating with extra steps. Theoretically playing with Points gives you a lot more fine control over how you can buff and nerf any given unit...But it's still Power Rating, just with a much, much bigger range.

If wargear doesn't cost points, there is simply no reason not to take the "Best" thing every. Single. Time. Invest in magnets if you have to so you can switch out if you know who your opponent is ahead of time (and most casual players, will). If you don't play with the best thing every single time, you are being silly, because there is no reason not to - and it also increases the value of boxes that simply come with the best stuff (and 3D printing). Sure. You probably can't do anything about the models you already own. But from now on? The future is magnets.

Do what they always do, die as ablative wounds for the special and heavy weapons in the squad and screen for the vehicles that doing the actual work.

But why have any Infantry at all? Detachment rules are a joke now and Rogal Dorns are T12 with OC5, and already come with Ablative Plating?

People were complaining that their tanks were dying too fast and GW listened, and now I get to browse /r/competitive40k and have a laugh at supposedly undefeated triple hammerfall bunkers.

Part of me really, really, really wants to paint Bright Yellow Boxes and make my opponent's eyes bleed for literally exactly that.
But also I don't really want to buy anything at all until at least a bit of Errata and a release schedule shows up.

[LeSwordfish]

With OC5, a Rogal Dorn gets pipped to an objective by eighteen points of guardsmen.

[Squark]

With OC5, a Rogal Dorn gets pipped to an objective by eighteen points of guardsmen.

I feel the need to quote myself from another forum regarding this.

Objective control is not a good solution to the balance issues created by knights. Coming to a game expecting a fair fight and instead being forced to hope you die slowly enough that your opponent has a phyrric victory is not good game design

(Obviously, if both players come expecting to play cat and mouse, that's different

[Renegade Paladin]

Eldar nerfed, Towering and Indirect Fire units' points up through the roof. Oh, and Plague Marines come in squads of seven again.

[Cheesegear]

Eldar nerfed, Towering and Indirect Fire units' points up through the roof.

I think Towering itself, is the problem. One thing I kind of dislike about an "Evergreen" future, is that Core Rules themselves, can never, ever, ever be changed - even if they're bad rules.

Oh, and Plague Marines come in squads of seven again.

Whilst this doesn't actually address the core problem of mandated squad sizes; Plague Marines do, in fact, come in Boxes of 7. So there is a business (read; money) rationale behind it.

However, GW can't seemingly manage to address that some boxes use a model to make Character models (e.g; Custodes), and when that happens, the rest of the box becomes unusable. Which is very frustrating, and a huge money sink.

[Wraith]

I made it through my first two games of 10th Edition, and I have to say that I like it a lot better than 9th and probably about as much as 8th, although this is early days so I hope it will only improve.

First game was my Primaris Dark Angels vs Orks. I screwed up my army list from the get-go because I read 'Leader' as being "can join a unit" without realising there were any further restrictions. It meant that my Bladeguard were illegally accompanied by a Chaplain, but it didn't seem to help much; all 8 guys (including Ancient) ran into a blob of 20 Orks and pretty much just bounced off - stacking FNP is definitely the way to go in this edition, because as tough as Astartes are, if they can't swing the tide in the first turn they seem to quickly run out of steam and get ground down. I don't think I even rolled particularly badly, it's just that my elite unit of guys with master power weapons, +1 attacks, rerolling 1's and (illegally) getting +1 to wound chewed up a bunch of nobodies, and just couldn't do enough damage to stop the retaliation from being made of pure suck.

I will also say, I'm not a fan of the pre-game setup. Having to pick cards from different decks, then cycle the cards during the game, was one of the big turn-offs about 9th because I was already doing that with objectives and missions and stratagems... its a lot of faffing about that doesn't make the game any better, and the alternative system of 'roll a dice, consult a list, that's your mission and all the necessary details' is way better for casual play.

The second game was Dark Angels versus Imperial Guard. I replaced the Chaplain with a Judicier to make it legal, and frankly I was glad of it - Fights First on a unit with 30+ attacks, rerolling 1's, doing D2 is big and clever. By turn 3 I was winning 20VP to about 10 thanks to W2 keeping multiple models in the game long enough to return fire and score a few critical kills, but I was running out of steam - although I've wiped out half the IG army, their insane CP economy and ability to bring units back onto the table for almost no cost meant that going into Turn 4 the opponent was refreshed and I was stuck bashing my head against Ogryns and catching Plasma Guns from multiple sources. At the end of turn 5 I surrendered - although still ahead on points, I was inevitably going to get tabled while horribly outnumbered by enemies who were capping 3 out of 4 objectives every turn.

Bladeguard Ancients aren't worth their points - they're too much for +1 attack for one turn once per game, you're better off with pretty much ANYTHING that can make at least 5 attacks throughout the game. Judiciers are way better than I expected. Bladeguard are very scary, but if they can't one-shot an enemy unit then even they are going to suffer - in fact, I feel like this edition is one where whoever gets the first charge and swings the fight is probably going to turn the tide of the battle, because protracted fights are miserable.

That being said, I never felt like there I was completely outclassed and I'm confident that wherever I lost a unit or had a bad turn, there was always something that I could have done better. I've been in games where I have no alternative than to just hope my opponent rolls badly, and 10th edition definitely is not that.

All in all, solid praise from me. I think that there's some balancing to be done, which would be achieved when (if?) wargear gets points costs to stop everyone having everything, all the time, and I think everyone said the same thing about Power vs Points costs in 8th edition so its not really news.

[LeSwordfish]

I've now played about half a dozen games (all small - I don't have 1500pts of Tau assembled yet!) and am still enjoying myself. I think T'au are a little low in the pecking order but also I'm running 100% of my painted models so not surprising my army is not very well tuned. (Kroot are still crap - some things never change).

I don't think the cards are great for smaller games, or definitely not the turn-by-turn tactical play. Having fewer cards per turn doesn't matter when some will ask you to take huge chunks of army out of commission (though i'm planning to paint up a Coldstar commander to race a unit of Crisis Suits around at flying-18"-and-shooting).

[Cheesegear]

I made it through my first two games of 10th Edition, and I have to say that I like it a lot better than 9th and probably about as much as 8th

I like 10th more than I liked the start of 8th.

It meant that my Bladeguard were illegally accompanied by a Chaplain, but it didn't seem to help much

Chaplains can lead Bladeguard? What was illegal?

all 8 guys (including Ancient) ran into a blob of 20 Orks and pretty much just bounced off

Oh. Chaplains can't join Ancients.

The second game was Dark Angels versus Imperial Guard. I replaced the Chaplain with a Judicier to make it legal, and frankly I was glad of it - Fights First on a unit with 30+ attacks, rerolling 1's, doing D2 is big and clever.

The Judiciar plus Ancient is still illegal, though?

The Space Marine stacks are:
Captain and choose one; Lieutenant, Ancient or Apothecary.*
Lieutenant and choose one; Ancient or Apothecary.*
*and I don't think Apothecaries can join Bladeguard.

Leaves you with Captain and Lieutenant; Or, either and Ancient.

Judiciars aren't part of either stack. I looked for a special Dark Angels rule about Judiciars, but I couldn't find one. I'm not sure I'm reading you correctly. What was illegal? What was the fix? I'm not clear on what's happened. Unless I'm blind.

Bladeguard Ancients aren't worth their points - they're too much for +1 attack for one turn once per game, you're better off with pretty much ANYTHING that can make at least 5 attacks throughout the game.

Can confirm.

Judiciers are way better than I expected. Bladeguard are very scary, but if they can't one-shot an enemy unit then even they are going to suffer.

That's why I highly rate the Chaplain's +1 to Wound. Now they can fight Custodes on equal footing.

[Wraith]

The Judiciar plus Ancient is still illegal, though?

My bad; I replaced the Chaplain AND the Ancient too. I swapped them for an Apothecary and stuck that onto my big squad of Intercessors, to help them hold their objective in the face of deep-striking Plasma-Scions.

On reflection, I wish I'd spent it on more Eliminators. Precise weapons are going to be super-important in this edition I feel, because if you're not sniping Ork Pain Boyz then you are sniping IG Officers.

*and I don't think Apothecaries can join Bladeguard.

Correct. Assault Intercessors, Intercessors, Hellblasters, Desolators, Sternguard and Infernus Squads with a Chapter Master, Captain, or Lieutenant.

I can understand WHY GW have decided it works this way, its a hard cap on how big a potential Deathstar unit can become and I really like how it shows that they have thought about the minutiae of ability interactions for once. At the same time... I kinda WANT to play a big silly Deathstar unit with Chaplain, Ancient, Apothecary and stuff

[Cheesegear]

I kinda WANT to play a big silly Deathstar unit with Chaplain, Ancient, Apothecary and stuff

You're in luck! They exist! They're called Command Squads and they're actually...Kind of terrible! Hooray!

EDIT: In my over a dozen games by now; I think the only units I'm struggling against are Monsters. Luckily the Indecies are really, really good because you can Ctrl+F for the thing you need...

Centurion Assault Squads...No.
Storm Speeder Thunderstrikes...+1 to Wound for the entire army!? I don't have any. But I might certainly look into getting one.
Eradicators might be sweet.

Hunter; I don't need help rolling to Hit. The anti-Fly could potentially be amazing if the Monsters are Flying.

Predator Annihilator. No.
Gladiator Valiant. No.

I think the best option for my concerns are probably the Storm Speeder Thunderstrike. I don't think Eradicators will work.

"But Cheesegear, couldn't you use Tor Garadon to punch out Monsters?
...No. Garadon is good at fightning non-Dreadnought Vehicles. Take a look at his Bodyguard units...There's nothing there that could handle anything that could actually Fight back - and Monsters can certainly...Usually...Do that.

[Corsair14]

So far I have played using Necrons and Dark Angels. and I have played against Tau twice and bugs. I dont play silver tide necrons, I play more destroyer heavy and decided to take the Seraptik for a spin, it was awesome. So so on the rest of the army.

My Dark Angels used the Gladius and I fielded 3 drop pods, an Infernus squad, a hellblaster squad and a sterguard squad, all at 10 guys, plus a back line of 5 desolators and a Ballistus dread. My main punch for melee was a 10 man deathwing squad with assault cannons with Belial and a 5 man assault termy squad with thunder hammers and storm shields led by a chaplain. The Desolators did well and never died constantly doing damage to big targets with super-krak(I have a hard time saying that with a straight face). Deathwing did a lot of work both games dropping in and storm of firing 3 zooanthropes, hormagants, and in the second game all but Farsight and one out of 6 escort suits who they then took down in a successful charge. They also killed a screamer killer who charged them and the remainder of the hormagant squad that charged them. I think the real MVPs were the Hellblasters the dropped in and with the help of the sternguard killed off a Flyrant with stupid amounts of saves and tied up a thorned Hirodule(sp) for the game and then in the next game dropped in with no buffs or strats and took out one lone broadside, 3 died from hazardous but got to shoot again, and did 5 wounds to a second lone broadside whom failed all his saves taking 10 damage. Then the next round they took out 2 tetras and another broadside who was down to one wound. Sternguard were pretty badass too wiping a squad of crisis suits and a coldstar. My tau opponent over extended trying to take advantage of me starting with only two units on the board and it didnt quite work out for him due to terrain being so cluttered. The Infernus did ok, they make for a good utility unit doing a fair amount of damage to lots of little guys both games. They would have done more but I shot something else instead of another squad of squishies since I needed the movement to get onto an objective in the assault phase.

My assault terminators did nothing. when they dropped in they failed their charge in both games. We theory gamed it in the bug game and they would have charged and killed some ravenors and taken on Old one eye and probably would have won. Game two they would have jumped onto and objective and held it since it was worth 15VP if I had it at the end of the game. I will keep the assault termies but will probably drop the chappie and Beliel and instead just run a normal termie captain with bolter discipline and a sniper scout squad to give me another unit on the board at the start.

Tau- their crisis suits are meh. I wont be using them in my army, even with shields there is too much devastating wounds out there for them to be viable. Breachers with a fireblade on the other hand, holy crap they can put out some damage to troops. My opponent had 3 squads of them led by fireblades and they tore some marines up and would have done a lot more if it wasnt for armor of contempt. They certainly are not the tax units they used to be, oh and they have a 3+ ballistic skill now, unbuffed which means a 2+ if they get guided. And who is doing the guiding? Screw pathfinders, Tetras are the way to go on that count, all the benefits of guide + markerlights, toughness 6 and 12 wounds for 80 points.

[Beelzebub1111]

I was playing around with list building, and I think that Kroot may be an overlooked but effective tool in tau lists, especially if they are battlesuit heavy. At 75 points for 10 they are fairly cheap, and hardy with a shaper giving Feel No Pain and having stealth, they are fast, shooting isn't awful especially when Kayuon kicks in. Not terrible at range or in melee. Same with Krootox riders. I wouldn't use them for a full list, but they do make a decent suppliment to pick up the Tau's slack.

Vespids, on the other hand, I don't see having any use. A fast deep striker that can redeploy seems good, but you only get 5 wounds on them with no way of getting them any protection. They are just too fragile and too few. Stealth battlesuits fill basically the same role for the same points, but better.

[LeSwordfish]

I would be way more keen on kroot if not for having Stealth Suits next to them at the same price. They're 6 wounds behind T4 3+ instead of 10 wounds at T3 6+, so are tougher, and shoot comparatively effectively, and then they have a fantastic special rule instead of not interacting with FTGG at all.

I don't think kroot are terrible but I think they need a points drop, or for some other stuff to get an increase. (Hopefully the former, Tau are not in a fantastic place.)

[Renegade Paladin]

Vespids, on the other hand, I don't see having any use. A fast deep striker that can redeploy seems good, but you only get 5 wounds on them with no way of getting them any protection. They are just too fragile and too few. Stealth battlesuits fill basically the same role for the same points, but better.

Vespids have been useless since there were Vespids, so that's on brand.

[Cheesegear]

Vespids have been useless since there were Vespids, so that's on brand.

I think there was a six-second window between FAQs in late 7th Ed. when they weren't totally terrible.

[Beelzebub1111]

I would be way more keen on kroot if not for having Stealth Suits next to them at the same price. They're 6 wounds behind T4 3+ instead of 10 wounds at T3 6+, so are tougher, and shoot comparatively effectively, and then they have a fantastic special rule instead of not interacting with FTGG at all.

I don't think kroot are terrible but I think they need a points drop, or for some other stuff to get an increase. (Hopefully the former, Tau are not in a fantastic place.)

Stealth suits and kroot have different roles, though. A stealth suit is a role to support early aggression, to strike and fade away. the kroot role is to secure and hold objectives early and provide a screen for your firing lines. Getting to contest 10 OC (or 20 with aun'shi) on an objective early game seems pretty valuable to me. With a shaper they are much harder to remove than you are giving them credit.

Granted I don't think they are a "Must Have in Every List", but I do think they are useful if you want that role filled and probably the best at it in the tau arsenal.

[Gauntlet]

Vespid are playable. They don't kill much but they are cheap objective / action doers with deep strike and fly. They're also quite small and easy to hide behind LOS blockers. Quite a lot of tau builds I've seen for 10th have 1-2 units.

Tetras are better markers than Stealth Suits, but stealthsuits can also do the Vespid objective thing if needed, so I think you can go either way on them. It's good to have something that infiltrates to control the board and mitigate deep strike blitz stuff. Tau have quite a lot of serviceable utility support pieces, which is nice. The suits are mostly OK too - Riptides are overcosted, though.

The biggest issue Tau have imo is lack of hard antitank - Seeker Missiles are great but once you've spent them you don't really have anything that punches through tough stuff reliably. Skyrays and Hammerheads are overpointed and don't hit very hard, Tiger Sharks can't fire till turn 3 and all the Melta is relying on 5s to wound without much access to wound rerolls. The Stormsurge does the job but feels a bit rougher with the points hike for Towering.

[Blackhawk748]

I think there was a six-second window between FAQs in late 7th Ed. when they weren't totally terrible.

I was gonna say this, I recall that back in 7th there was a time period when your opponent wouldn't laugh at you for putting them on the table. They still weren't good, but they were at least defensible beyond "I think they look neat"

[Cheesegear]

I was gonna say this, I recall that back in 7th there was a time period when your opponent wouldn't laugh at you for putting them on the table. They still weren't good, but they were at least defensible beyond "I think they look neat"

I want to say that at some point Vespid got a massive points reduction; Which, because of their Fly- and Move speed, meant that if T'au went first, Vespid could Advance up the board and get a good board position to prevent Space Marines from Drop Podding the **** out of them. There was a couple of things like that in late 7th Ed; "This unit isn't actually good, per se. But Space Marines are getting their Drop Pods for free, and there actually is a way to defend against that."

But of course, remember that 7th Ed. gave us Maelstrom; Bad units weren't bad if they were fast.*

This unit scored 3VPs, and then my opponent blasted them, gaining 1KP. What an amazing unit.
What? They died in 3 seconds and didn't even remove a single enemy model?
What part of "This unit scored 3VPs, and gave up 1." sounds bad to you?

Maelstrom threw Math-Hammer out the window; Removing your opponent's models (and having yours, not be removed) didn't necessarily win games. That's why a lot of people didn't like list-building in 7th Ed. I don't want to say it was counter-intuitive. But it was more like "Completing the objective is more important than removing models. Removing your opponent's models is only a WinCon if you can table them...Which you can't." Kill Team has similar win conditions... And a lot of people don't like Kill Team mission design. Go figure.

*e.g; Vespid (and Kroot).

[Blackhawk748]

Maelstrom threw Math-Hammer out the window; Removing your opponent's models (and having yours, not be removed) didn't necessarily win games. That's why a lot of people didn't like list-building in 7th Ed. I don't want to say it was counter-intuitive. But it was more like "Completing the objective is more important than removing models. Removing your opponent's models is only a WinCon if you can table them...Which you can't." Kill Team has similar win conditions... And a lot of people don't like Kill Team mission design. Go figure.

*e.g; Vespid (and Kroot).

Frankly I liked that, but that's because I preferred the change from pure math hammer over to a more movement based game with survivability and killing power being secondary.

But I understand Im weird.

[Grim Portent]

I both liked it and didn't like it. Objective based play fits some armies more than others narratively speaking, and I didn't feel like Maelstrom ever really made sense for my Khorne army. Too much time spent trying to cap or defend objectives, not enough duelling enemy champions, killing psykers or slaughtering people. Yes there were the faction specific objectives, but they weren't all that much when you get right down to it. It was kind of annoying to have my berzerkers back away from the enemy because I drew an objective that they were the best positioned to cap.

Still a problem really, and isn't the sort of thing that's likely to ever stop being a problem. Making 'psychotic murder cultists' into a set of playstyle defining objectives probably wouldn't be easy to do, let alone balance against more normal factions.

[Wraith]

This feels like something that could be fixed VERY quickly by giving each faction 2 or 3 of it's own unique objectives and allowing you to trade a drawn card for them once per game.

For example, the Khorne army above; instead of capping an objective and scoring 4VP, you could choose to discard that for your Faction objective, "Blood For the Blood God: Declare 3 charges in one turn: 3VP". It's a lower score, but it lets your army do what you want it to ("role play") and you always have it in hand for consistency to make up for it.

Some will probably just be "Kill some dudes" but... If that suits the army I wanna play, why not?

[LeSwordfish]

I'm a touch dubious because faction-specific objectives were a major unbalancing factor in 9th ed (World Eaters loved theirs) and are similarly causing problems in AOS (where the "core" objectives have become way harder, suddenly nerfing factions that don't have a solid set themselves).