Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

[Cheesegear]

My annoyance is more the sudden reverse from "Hey check out all of these classic units! They're good/decent/not an automatic loss this edition" to "Just kidding, Legends, or folded into another unit".

Which would only be a problem if you've gone out and bought units with currency based on what you've seen in the Index. Which you should absolutely not do.

Which is also a problem for some character's ability to lead certain units. And just a general lack of clarity.

AFAIC there's plenty of clarity if you actually have an understanding of how GW works. Especially if you have an understanding about how "living" games work. Which is kind of insane at this point. Who spends massive, massive, enormous amounts of cash knowing that the developer can nerf anything they want, at any time? At least the investment into online games is only $5-$10 at a time.

But also compare to Magic: The Gathering; Everybody that actually pays attention knows that each set is only legal for about three years - it used to be two! Once it goes past rotation, you go into a different format which is literal Hell for new kids - that's a different kettle of fish. But ultimately I don't expect much. If you're going to invest hundreds of currency into a playset of 4 cards; Do your ****ing research and for Urza's sake figure out when the cards you're buying become illegal.
I finally got around to spending $160 on this playset...What do you mean they stop being legal in three weeks?

Some of us have models going back 15 years! Longer. In this game of capitalism I'm genuinely surprised that some models have been allowed to exist for as long as they have. I accepted back in 8th Ed. that all of my Firstborn models were eventually going to go in the fire - even Tactical Squads and Devastators. I'm genuinely surprised that 9th Ed. kept all the Firstborn around, and I'm even more surprised that 10th Ed. isn't deleting literally everything. However; I'm also aware that the Horus Heresy is actually a "Core" GW game at this point, and the cross-design use for those models at least encourages 30K players to hold their models 'cause they can play 40K as well.

The true losers of any format change; Is whoever was most recent before the change... Votann.

GW has a habit this edition of not just outright declaring in clear writing that "Yes, this is competitive play allowed to have these models now represent this unit". Instead, they kind of leave it open to interpretation.

"This edition" has barely started. Nothing at all is set in stone and nobody should be making any major decisions. Remember the start of 8th Ed.? ...No? Okay.

If Games Workshop would be willing to actually make a clear list, that would be very useful, as requested above.

The list is very clear.
Everything that isn't on that list is still going. Write the inverse of what the list is telling you and you get what's staying. Of course this might take up to five whole minutes of effort because you're trying to read what isn't there. But it can be done. I did it. It was easy... You couldn't?

[LeSwordfish]

However; I'm also aware that the Horus Heresy is actually a "Core" GW game at this point, and the cross-design use for those models at least encourages 30K players to hold their models 'cause they can play 40K as well.

One of the more bizarre things GW has done recently is legends all the plastic heresy stuff. There's like twenty brand new shiny plastic tanks and dreadnoughts there, and it's all verboten for competitive play. Very strange, though I do see the point of their given reason (too difficult to balance in the long run).

[Cheesegear]

Legends of the Astartes; ...And Nothing of Value was Lost.

Librarian: Who gives a ****? Everything they can do is done better by the Primaris Librarian and its equivalent units. The writing was on the wall in 8th Ed. Why are you mad? The slight exploit you can do with a non-Pistol weapon isn't even worth considering. One extra Storm Bolter isn't better than...All that.

Techmarine: These guys have been on the decline since Conversion Beamers left the game. Who cares?
Astartes Servitors: ...No seriously. You don't care. Don't pretend otherwise.

Scouts: The only reason that these guys were ever good was because they were a cheap Troops tax. In 9th Ed. they were moved to Elites, and were worthless. And now in 10th Ed. they're gone. No-one cares. The writing was on the wall. Always read the writing on the wall.

Scouts with Rifles: The only reason that these guys were ever good was because they were a cheap Troops tax. In 9th Ed. they were utterly supplanted by Eliminators. In 10th Ed. Well, they could be good, because 5 [Precision] attacks are better than 3. Arguably this is the only unit you should be sad to see go.

Company Command: A really bizarre unit that never made much sense. Why are all these people grouped together? Once Lieutenants were brought into the mix in 8th Ed., these guys were simply never the same. There's a way you can make this squad work - narratively and mechanically. But my fix would be too complicated for the direction GW is going. Mostly I'm just a bit sad the box with some decent kit-bashing parts is going away.

Ironclad Dreadnought: These guys dropped out of the game in 8th Ed. AV13 in Melee was a big, big deal. Now? T10 with no Ranged Weapons is pretty lame. Haven't thought about these guys since 7th Ed. and I don't plan on ever thinking about them. The only reason I liked them is because they had a neat Chassis that made my Imperial Fists Dreadnoughts look slightly more buff. For me, these have only a neat kit-bashing part for Venerable Dreads.

Assault Squad: 10th Ed. made them incredibly bizarre with an odd ability that no-one else got. Best faith I can say that GW probably wanted to do something tricky with Vanguard Veterans, but then dropped the ball completely. There's no way GW means to let the amazing Vanguard Veteran box be simply "Heirloom Weapons." That makes no sense. Have you seen the box!? It's ****ing amazing. My...Hope...Is that Vanguard Veterans take over the hole that Assault Squads leave behind. There's no reason they shouldn't.
...Then again, I can't see the Sternguard box being discontinued, but also, there are new Sternguard sculpts. I'm absolutely willing to believe that the (current) Sternguard and Vanguard boxes will go away. Sooner, rather than later... To be replaced with something much less customisable and I will set my expectations in three...Two...One... No expectations, no disappointments.

Bikes & Attack Bikes: *Shrug* Has anyone seriously thought about Bikes since 5th Ed. when Bikes could be Troops? No? I didn't think so either.
P.S. "Ravening aren't going anywhere." feels like doublespeak. "Ravenwing" the narrative and/or mechanical concept, isn't going anywhere. But we never said anything about invalidating all of your models. Can we interest you in this upgrade kit to make Ravenwing Outriders?

Scout Bikes: They were a cheap, neat little unit that had a very specific niche that was occasionally useful for a competitive player in a very, very, very specific meta. That meta no longer exists, that niche no longer exists...What are these guys for again? Oh, you're getting rid of them. It doesn't matter anyway.

Land Speeders: Land Speeders were good...Then they weren't...Then they were again...Then they weren't... It's been a very odd ride for Land Speeders and I'll be sad to see them go, I think...Maybe. I don't know. They were fun for a bit 'cause they had Assault Cannons. But now in 10th Ed. Assault Cannons really don't feel very special - or particularly effective. So whatever role the Land Speeders served is now better served, by the new and improved Storm Speeders.

Land Speeder Storms: Bull****. You've never thought about a Land Speeder Storm in your life. I used to run three of them and my opponents said my "Land Speeder Conversions" were super sweet. I refuse to believe that you care that Land Speeder Storms are going away, and I bet a part of you even forgot that they were even things that existed.

Stalker: If you told me in 8th Ed. that these were going away, I would've been sad. However Fliers aren't what they used to be. The niche that these guys filled isn't really necessary. I would try to work up some offense...But honestly I got nothing. The game isn't like it was. These guys don't matter. They were super strong in 7th Ed. Marginally strong in 8th Ed. And more or less phased out once Storm Speeders filled the niche.

Hunter: The only reason anybody ever put one of these on the board is because there was a neat Formation that required one...For the discerning player in a very, very, very specific kind of Craftworlds meta...Back in 7th Ed. Nobody has thought about a Hunter since 2017. Carry on.

Thunderfire Cannon: ...When these were introduced, they straight up replaced Whirlwinds and were one of the best things in the Roster for a long, long time. Even though every Edition nerfed them just that little bit more...Little by little they were nerfed...Until they kind of suck. Then GW nerfed the **** out of [Indirect Fire], and now people really want to complain about losing something that's been nerfed into the ground? Okay. I guess you have free will and you can complain about whatever you want, and you're choosing "Losing a unit that sucks anyway." 'Kay. That's your prerogative.


Mostly I'm just cautiously wary of the direction GW wants to go. Specifically with Sternguard and Vanguard, and to a lesser extent, "Elite" versions of those existing units - Ravenwing and Sanguinary Guard. We know that Firstborn sculpts are being phased out. GW is just really ****ing slow ripping off that band-aid. Of course Primaris Sanguinary Guard will be a thing - and they'll sell a trillion boxes - but like...When?

[LeSwordfish]

I'm really hoping that we'll see similar primarisification passes to the other marine factions over the course of tenth edition that we saw for Black Templars in 9th.

[Beelzebub1111]

Spoiler

Show

Legends of the Astartes; ...And Nothing of Value was Lost.

Librarian: Who gives a ****? Everything they can do is done better by the Primaris Librarian and its equivalent units. The writing was on the wall in 8th Ed. Why are you mad? The slight exploit you can do with a non-Pistol weapon isn't even worth considering. One extra Storm Bolter isn't better than...All that.

Techmarine: These guys have been on the decline since Conversion Beamers left the game. Who cares?
Astartes Servitors: ...No seriously. You don't care. Don't pretend otherwise.

Scouts: The only reason that these guys were ever good was because they were a cheap Troops tax. In 9th Ed. they were moved to Elites, and were worthless. And now in 10th Ed. they're gone. No-one cares. The writing was on the wall. Always read the writing on the wall.

Scouts with Rifles: The only reason that these guys were ever good was because they were a cheap Troops tax. In 9th Ed. they were utterly supplanted by Eliminators. In 10th Ed. Well, they could be good, because 5 [Precision] attacks are better than 3. Arguably this is the only unit you should be sad to see go.

Company Command: A really bizarre unit that never made much sense. Why are all these people grouped together? Once Lieutenants were brought into the mix in 8th Ed., these guys were simply never the same. There's a way you can make this squad work - narratively and mechanically. But my fix would be too complicated for the direction GW is going. Mostly I'm just a bit sad the box with some decent kit-bashing parts is going away.

Ironclad Dreadnought: These guys dropped out of the game in 8th Ed. AV13 in Melee was a big, big deal. Now? T10 with no Ranged Weapons is pretty lame. Haven't thought about these guys since 7th Ed. and I don't plan on ever thinking about them. The only reason I liked them is because they had a neat Chassis that made my Imperial Fists Dreadnoughts look slightly more buff. For me, these have only a neat kit-bashing part for Venerable Dreads.

Assault Squad: 10th Ed. made them incredibly bizarre with an odd ability that no-one else got. Best faith I can say that GW probably wanted to do something tricky with Vanguard Veterans, but then dropped the ball completely. There's no way GW means to let the amazing Vanguard Veteran box be simply "Heirloom Weapons." That makes no sense. Have you seen the box!? It's ****ing amazing. My...Hope...Is that Vanguard Veterans take over the hole that Assault Squads leave behind. There's no reason they shouldn't.
...Then again, I can't see the Sternguard box being discontinued, but also, there are new Sternguard sculpts. I'm absolutely willing to believe that the (current) Sternguard and Vanguard boxes will go away. Sooner, rather than later... To be replaced with something much less customisable and I will set my expectations in three...Two...One... No expectations, no disappointments.

Bikes & Attack Bikes: *Shrug* Has anyone seriously thought about Bikes since 5th Ed. when Bikes could be Troops? No? I didn't think so either.
P.S. "Ravening aren't going anywhere." feels like doublespeak. "Ravenwing" the narrative and/or mechanical concept, isn't going anywhere. But we never said anything about invalidating all of your models. Can we interest you in this upgrade kit to make Ravenwing Outriders?

Scout Bikes: They were a cheap, neat little unit that had a very specific niche that was occasionally useful for a competitive player in a very, very, very specific meta. That meta no longer exists, that niche no longer exists...What are these guys for again? Oh, you're getting rid of them. It doesn't matter anyway.

Land Speeders: Land Speeders were good...Then they weren't...Then they were again...Then they weren't... It's been a very odd ride for Land Speeders and I'll be sad to see them go, I think...Maybe. I don't know. They were fun for a bit 'cause they had Assault Cannons. But now in 10th Ed. Assault Cannons really don't feel very special - or particularly effective. So whatever role the Land Speeders served is now better served, by the new and improved Storm Speeders.

Land Speeder Storms: Bull****. You've never thought about a Land Speeder Storm in your life. I used to run three of them and my opponents said my "Land Speeder Conversions" were super sweet. I refuse to believe that you care that Land Speeder Storms are going away, and I bet a part of you even forgot that they were even things that existed.

Stalker: If you told me in 8th Ed. that these were going away, I would've been sad. However Fliers aren't what they used to be. The niche that these guys filled isn't really necessary. I would try to work up some offense...But honestly I got nothing. The game isn't like it was. These guys don't matter. They were super strong in 7th Ed. Marginally strong in 8th Ed. And more or less phased out once Storm Speeders filled the niche.

Hunter: The only reason anybody ever put one of these on the board is because there was a neat Formation that required one...For the discerning player in a very, very, very specific kind of Craftworlds meta...Back in 7th Ed. Nobody has thought about a Hunter since 2017. Carry on.

Thunderfire Cannon: ...When these were introduced, they straight up replaced Whirlwinds and were one of the best things in the Roster for a long, long time. Even though every Edition nerfed them just that little bit more...Little by little they were nerfed...Until they kind of suck. Then GW nerfed the **** out of [Indirect Fire], and now people really want to complain about losing something that's been nerfed into the ground? Okay. I guess you have free will and you can complain about whatever you want, and you're choosing "Losing a unit that sucks anyway." 'Kay. That's your prerogative.


Mostly I'm just cautiously wary of the direction GW wants to go. Specifically with Sternguard and Vanguard, and to a lesser extent, "Elite" versions of those existing units - Ravenwing and Sanguinary Guard. We know that Firstborn sculpts are being phased out. GW is just really ****ing slow ripping off that band-aid. Of course Primaris Sanguinary Guard will be a thing - and they'll sell a trillion boxes - but like...When?

You seem to misunderstand the gripes. it's not about being good. every unit is someone's favorite unit. Having there be a better replacement doesn't mean that people shouldn't be upset about models they bought being no longer usable.

[Wraith]

My biggest complaint about the list of Legends is something I've seen pointed out on other social media; some of the kits being discontinued are barely 10 years old whereas crap like the Predator, Vindicator and Whirlwind are old as dirt and are far more worthy candidates for a refresh.

Hell, this damn thing is still in the Aeldari range. I've re-bought and re-retired it in 3 different armies since the last millennium and its still the same damn miniature!

I get it. Space Marines are the poster-boys for the flagship GW property... But I bet we're also going to get yet another Primaris Lieutenant this year (he has a hat!) while everyone else turns into dust and blows away on the wind.

[LeSwordfish]

I suspect that there's a few conflicting issues here (is there a reasonable proxy? are we replacing it soon? is it a "classic" kit that people would be sad to see go?). And, let's face it, "is this just not selling"?

[Cheesegear]

You seem to misunderstand the gripes. it's not about being good. every unit is someone's favorite unit.

Which unit is someone's favourite unit? Be more specific.

The whole point of discontinuing models - but not other models - is that the models being discontinued almost certainly aren't selling units. Ergo, they are not someone's favourite unit. Or, rather, the people who's favourite unit they are...Those people are alone.

As I said, for the majority of that list, no-one's even looked at them since 7th Ed. And some units haven't seriously been looked at since 5th. Before there was competition. If those units are somebody's favourite...I almost kind of feel bad for them. Because those units all kind of suck, and they've been putting crappy units on the table for over six years. Surely by now it's time to upgrade, no?

There's also the elephant in the room; GW has taken a soft stance on Counts As. You can use the models you like. Absolutely. But now they're something else (something better!). Which means in this case, the only thing you're complaining about is the change of rules, which in almost every case, you're being upgraded. I think the only units that don't survive to Counts As are the Vehicles. The complaint doesn't make sense.

The only argument that does make sense is the monetary argument; You're now in the hole because of a lack of transparency.
That sucks. That's a fair argument. That I understand. But you'll also remember way back at the start, I was very explicit that my Guide that I was writing - and still am writing, albeit slower - should not be considered a Buyer's Guide. Nobody should've bought anything based off the Indecies. I know I haven't. I've been proxying and Counts As'ing my arse off. Don't buy nothing until the Codex comes out. But I definitely understand that some people like impulse buying things based on combos they saw on Reddit that can only be used against opponents made of straw.
(Everyone buy three Hammerfall Bunkers. Right now! ...That's a joke. Do not do that.)

That being said;
I bought units based on the Index and now I'm screwed because GW nerfed and/or Legends'd the thing I bought!?
...First time?

My biggest complaint about the list of Legends is something I've seen pointed out on other social media; some of the kits being discontinued are barely 10 years old...

As I said; I'm almost certain it's about selling models. I don't think age of the kit has anything to do with anything.

That being said; We know for a fact that rules sell models. If a kit isn't selling, it's usually has bad rules. Not that the fact that is has bad rules means it doesn't sell. But it certainly doesn't help.

Also, also...If a unit has bad models, and is still flying off the shelves despite the bad models? ...Why change anything.

[Forum Explorer]

Which unit is someone's favourite unit? Be more specific.




As I said; I'm almost certain it's about selling models. I don't think age of the kit has anything to do with anything.

That being said; We know for a fact that rules sell models. If a kit isn't selling, it's usually has bad rules. Not that the fact that is has bad rules means it doesn't sell. But it certainly doesn't help.

Also, also...If a unit has bad models, and is still flying off the shelves despite the bad models? ...Why change anything.

Of that list? Probably Thunderfire Cannons.


Now that latter part is very and sadly true. I love Deathstrike Missile Launchers. But their rules are absolute trash. I've run one anyways, but still. GSC has/had a similar model with their giant freaking drill. Also trash rules and it is now in Legends. Such a waste because GSC doesn't have that many units and it is a really cool model. That they never gave good or even interesting rules so no one ever bought it.

[Lord Torath]

Hell, this damn thing is still in the Aeldari range. I've re-bought and re-retired it in 3 different armies since the last millennium and its still the same damn miniature!

It actually dates clear back to the early 90's (Edit: possibly mid-90's, I'm still tracking it down). That's the only model the Warp Spider Exarch has ever had. Used to be pewter, then changed to 'fine cast' resin.

I will confess, I'd kind of like a Thunderfire cannon. Need something to stand in for the Thudd Gun and that fantastic template!

[Easy e]

I dropped out of 40K around the start of 6th and end of 5th edition. Therefore, that makes me sad to see some of these old units disappear because I prefer the older editions. There were no Vanguard Vets or Sternguard Vets, there were no Hunters, no Stalkers, no Storms. However, there were scouts, scouts with rifles, land speeders of all types, attack bikes, etc. Therefore, as more of an "oldhammer" player, the loss of these units makes it a bit more difficult to keep those older editions alive*.



I really do still like the Attack Bike model as it is a throwback all the way to Rogue Trader days.





* = which is not GWs problem, more of an Oldhammer community problem.

[Beelzebub1111]

Which unit is someone's favourite unit? Be more specific.

I like scouts, scout snipers, tech marines and assault marines, but that's beside the point. It's not a matter of specifics, It doesn't matter what the model is. Somebody likes it and somebody will be disappointed to see it be made to be unplayable regarless of how good or bad the rules are.

[LeSwordfish]

Yeah I'm sad to see the ironclad dreadnought go even if i can easily enough run it as a normal dreadnought.

[Cheesegear]

It's not a matter of specifics

Yes it is. Just not the specifics you think.

Somebody likes it and somebody will be disappointed to see it be made to be unplayable regarless of how good or bad the rules are.

I am willing to empathise if:
a) When did you buy the models? And,
b) How long did you expect to be able to play with them for?

If the answer to a) is more than five years ago; Or the answer to b) is more than 18 months*...I've got news for you - New GW is the same as Old GW, and in some cases, worse.

However, you can still play with your models under the Legends rules. However, you probably wont be able to go to large, (sponsored?) prize-orientated tournaments. Then again, casual players who like bad models don't go to tournaments - that's one of the defining traits of being casual.

*Poor Votann.

[Renegade Paladin]

However, you can still play with your models under the Legends rules.

No we can't. My Veterans and Conscripts didn't even get a Legends datasheet; they're just deleted. Besides, we all know the tournament rules creep down into casual spaces. I even explicitly allow Legends units in the Crusade campaigns we run here and no one has ever actually done it. (I would, if I had Veterans in Legends.)

[Cheesegear]

No we can't. My Veterans and Conscripts didn't even get a Legends datasheet; they're just deleted.

Anything you can use in the Agents of the Imperium Index?

Besides, we all know the tournament rules creep down into casual spaces.

Please put the cat back in the bag. Some people still think being casual in 9th 10th Ed. is still a thing.

[Forum Explorer]

No we can't. My Veterans and Conscripts didn't even get a Legends datasheet; they're just deleted. Besides, we all know the tournament rules creep down into casual spaces. I even explicitly allow Legends units in the Crusade campaigns we run here and no one has ever actually done it. (I would, if I had Veterans in Legends.)

Veterans didn't exist before...I want to say 7th edition? And they didn't get a box set or anything. Just a datasheet, and you used Guardsmen models you declared were veterans. Same story with Conscripts. A datasheet sure, but no models were ever explicitly sold as Conscripts.

[DaedalusMkV]

Veterans didn't exist before...I want to say 7th edition? And they didn't get a box set or anything. Just a datasheet, and you used Guardsmen models you declared were veterans. Same story with Conscripts. A datasheet sure, but no models were ever explicitly sold as Conscripts.

Incorrect! *Pulls out 3rd edition Imperial Guard codex*

Back in those days they were called Hardened Veterans, and were limited to 1 unit per army unless you had the Veterans Doctrine as well, in which case you could take as many as you wanted (by which I mean up to 3 units, because Force Organization Chart). They were also an Elites choice rather than Troops (the very powerful 5th edition codex stuck them in the Troops slot), but in exchange could be taken in units of 5-10 models and had the Infiltrate rule. As was the custom in those times there were no official models to represent Hardened Veterans, but there were some recommended conversions and paint scheme variations (Cadians were encouraged to paint their veterans with camouflage for example), and Forge World released upgrade packs for both Cadians and Catachans that included heads, arms and weapons for Veterans in early 4th edition times (shotguns and gas masks ahoy!).

Veterans existed forever, until the 9th edition codex unceremoniously deleted them because GW didn't sell a Veteran box. And they were popular the whole time.

Mmm. I had good times with this book. I miss organizing my army in platoons. And the command hierarchy as well. Even Doctrines were good fun, if horribly balanced. It wasn't a strong book, but boy does it pack character into a small space.

Conscripts? Eh, they never had any special models or anything. Rules-wise they were always just Guardsmen but crappier and with very limited weapon access, and the only time anyone ever used them to my memory was when Chenkov could just eternally refresh them with Send In the Next Wave, and even that was a very niche strategy. They also didn't exist until the 5th edition book. There's probably somebody sad to see them go, but... I can't imagine it's a lot of people.

[Renegade Paladin]

Veterans didn't exist before...I want to say 7th edition? And they didn't get a box set or anything. Just a datasheet, and you used Guardsmen models you declared were veterans. Same story with Conscripts. A datasheet sure, but no models were ever explicitly sold as Conscripts.

Veterans existed the entire time I played. The core of my 5th edition army was veterans with meltaguns in Chimeras. They were even Troops then, the only Troops choice besides a full platoon.

Conscripts? Eh, they never had any special models or anything. Rules-wise they were always just Guardsmen but crappier and with very limited weapon access, and the only time anyone ever used them to my memory was when Chenkov could just eternally refresh them with Send In the Next Wave, and even that was a very niche strategy. They also didn't exist until the 5th edition book. There's probably somebody sad to see them go, but... I can't imagine it's a lot of people.

GW had literally just buffed them with Codex Supplement: Cadia with the Whiteshields rules.

[Cheesegear]

Yesterday I played against...

Angron
Daemon Prince with Wings
Daemon Prince with Wings
Daemon Prince with Wings
Defiler
Defiler
Forgefiend
Forgefiend
Forgefiend

You need a real special list to deal with that one that I don't have.

[Renegade Paladin]

Today's tournament was taken by melee Ultramarines, of all things. Details. Photos (Warning: Facebook).

[9mm]

Yesterday I played against...

Angron
Daemon Prince with Wings
Daemon Prince with Wings
Daemon Prince with Wings
Defiler
Defiler
Forgefiend
Forgefiend
Forgefiend

You need a real special list to deal with that one that I don't have.

meanwhile our local competitive guard player looked at the rules for mixed toughness units and is saying he can get 100 t6 bodies for under 1000 pts. This game is such a silly mess.

[Forum Explorer]

I just had a game against Salamanders (AKA Space Marines since Salamanders basically don't exist).

My list

Spoiler

Show

Leaders
Archon with Blast Pistol and the Art of Pain: 110


Battleline
10 Kabalites with Shredder, Splinter Cannon, Blaster, and Dark Lance: 120
Raider with Dark Lance: 90
10 Kabalites with Shredder, Splinter Cannon, Blaster, and Dark Lance: 120
Raider with Dark Lance: 90
10 Kabalites with Shredder, Splinter Cannon, Blaster, and Dark Lance: 120
Raider with Dark Lance: 90
10 Kabalites with Shredder, Splinter Cannon, Blaster, and Dark Lance: 120
Raider with Dark Lance: 90
5 Wracks: 65
5 Wracks: 65

Infantry
5 Scourges with 4 Dark Lances: 120
5 Scourges with 4 Dark Lances: 120
5 Mandrakes: 70
5 Mandrakes: 70

Mounted
6 Reavers with 2 Heat Lances and 2 Cluster Caltrops: 150
6 Reavers with 2 Heat Lances and 2 Cluster Caltrops: 150

Vehicles/Monsters
Ravenger with 3 Dark Lances: 95
Ravenger with 3 Dark Lances: 95
Cronos: 50

His list

Spoiler

Show

10 Heavy Intercessors with Captain and Apothecary
5 Assault Marines
5 Intercessors
1 ATV
1 ATV
1 Redemptor Dreadnaught
1 Balissitus Dreadnaught
1 Ironclad Dreadnaught
5 Assualt Terminators with Thunder Hammer Storm Shield and a Captain in Terminator armor
3 Eradicators
3 Eradicators
3 Aggressors with Flamestorm Gauntlets
3 Aggressors with Flamestorm Gauntlets

And I went first, and I won. Between the Chronos and my Archon and just killing units its almost impossible to run out of Pain Tokens and thus I pretty much always had full rerolls to hit across basically my entire army. Had he gone first maybe he could have blunted my damage somewhat, but as is I just snowballed as every unit I killed made it easier to kill another unit and kept my damage output way above his.

[Cheesegear]

meanwhile our local competitive guard player looked at the rules for mixed toughness units and is saying he can get 100 t6 bodies for under 1000 pts.

...And you asked them to explain, yes?

This game is such a silly mess.

The above is probably an intentional - probably wrong - misreading of a rule somewhere.

The problem is more along the lines of; "In 8th Ed. there was a downside to not paying your Troops taxes. In 9th Ed. things got a little bit silly. In 10th Ed., however, there are some units that are really ****ing strong because they changed the availability of high Toughness, but not the availability of high Strength. Which would be fine, if we had to pay our "Low Toughness Units Tax", but we don't. Furthermore, because of GW's business operations, you can spam a lot of choices, even though the cap is 0-3."

Spoiler: No. They're Different. Honest.

Show

Leaders
Captain in Terminator Armour
Chaplain in Terminator Armour

Units
Relic Terminator Squad (x5)
Relic Terminator Squad (x5)
Relic Terminator Squad (x5)
Terminator Assault Squad (x5)
Terminator Assault Squad (x5)
Terminator Assault Squad (x5)
Terminator Squad (x5)
Terminator Squad (x5)
Terminator Squad (x5)

Total: 2000 Points

...Does someone wanna look into how this can be allowed? It's extremely thematic, which makes it a casual approved list, too.
Because casual means narrative. And everyone knows narrative armies are automatically bad... Right?

There's no fuzzy reading of the rules, and nobody needs to explain why you're allowed 9 units of Terminators. You just are.

EDIT: If people don't want to pay their Troops taxes, this is the **** you get. You asked for it.

[Eldan]

Haha going back 15 years. Half my Skaven army is from the 90s, I only ever refreshed half my infantry.

[LeSwordfish]

meanwhile our local competitive guard player looked at the rules for mixed toughness units and is saying he can get 100 t6 bodies for under 1000 pts. This game is such a silly mess.

Assuming this is about Ogryns, they don't give their toughness to the unit - a mixed toughness attached unit uses the highest toughness amongst the Bodyguard unit - i.e. the unit that the Leader is attached to. The Ogryn joins the command squad using the Loyal Protectors rule, becoming a single unit with mixed toughness. This isn't an Attached unit because its Loyal Protectors, not a Leader so the ogryn gives his toughness to the command squad. However, the command squad then joins the Infantry Squad using the normal Leader rules - the command-squad-with-ogryn is the Leader, the infantry squad is the Bodyguard, the ogryn's toughness doesn't apply.

[9mm]

Haha going back 15 years. Half my Skaven army is from the 90s, I only ever refreshed half my infantry.

Fun Fact: there is a 30 year old sculpt still actively used by Skaven. Vince is huffing the range refresh copium for a reason.

...And you asked them to explain, yes?

something, something Ogryn Bodyguards and Nork.

EDIT: If people don't want to pay their Troops taxes, this is the **** you get. You asked for it.

We haven't had to pay a troop tax since 8th edition, object secured just incentivized you to bring troops.

[Cheesegear]

something, something Ogryn Bodyguards and Nork.

As explained by LeSwordfish (beat me to it); They don't do that.

We haven't had to pay a troop tax since 8th edition, object secured just incentivized you to bring troops.

At some point I assume Battleline will mean something; There's some hints in the Agents of the Imperium that it might. But, if it doesn't? Then nobody needs anything. There's no such thing as an army building restriction, or limits, or taxes. So just do whatever you want.

Spam is the definition of thematic. Casual and Narrative players can't get mad when you spam. Your army is literally full of a unified force. They're just mad 'cause their unified force, sucks.

Angron leading Demon Princes isn't thematic.
Pretty sure it is.

[Destro_Yersul]

Fun Fact: there is a 30 year old sculpt still actively used by Skaven. Vince is huffing the range refresh copium for a reason.

So am I.

Just give me my rats, GW, that's all I want.

[Artanis]

Spam is the definition of thematic. Casual and Narrative players can't get mad when you spam. Your army is literally full of a unified force. They're just mad 'cause their unified force, sucks.

This reminds me of the 'discussions' around Eldar Jetbikes.

"OMG, Jetbike spam is so tryhard!"
"Two words: Saim. Hann."