The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

[Remuko]

I'm going to go with +1; it feels like there's too many bonuses for a mere +0, all those stat synergies really add up to a very solid beatstick type and help it keep scaling well at higher levels. I haven't been on these threads much in a long while, so I don't know if standards have evolved much since I was last on;

i can see where youre coming from by 8 mandatory RHD is a lot

HD: 8
Ability Scores: Str +12, Dex +4, Con +8, Int +0, Wis +8, Cha +6 - Net +38

like yeah thats a lot of stats, but youre talking about a "solid beatstick" then 1/3 of them arent even useful. id say those bonuses are way too much for a beatstick if it had half that many HD but at 8? you can get physical stat bonuses close to this for fair low LA. Idk I don't think the stats alone are +1 worthy. Maybe overall the thing is, I'm not arguing against that so much as this specific line:

I'm going to go with +1; it feels like there's too many bonuses for a mere +0

that line is what i don't necessarily agree with.

to elaborate further, youre saying this thing should go beatstick, yeah i can see that. that makes the wis and cha mostly meaningless so take them out of the net total. so now were at +24. 8RHD is a lot so lets divide the stats by the HD. 24/8 = 3. So this is equivalent to a 1HD beatsick with a net +3 to stats. I do not think that would be worth LA +1, and honestly the more HD you have the more stats you need for it to be worth as much, so another point against the thing.

Thats my 2 copper

[InvisibleBison]

to elaborate further, youre saying this thing should go beatstick, yeah i can see that. that makes the wis and cha mostly meaningless so take them out of the net total.

On an ordinary beatstick Wisdom and Charisma don't matter, but the Green Crusader's abilities let it use those stats to augment its beatsticking capabilities. To discard them is to ignore a significant factor in its beatsticking ability.

[GreatWyrmGold]

It is kinda weird that a creature from the Upper Planes with a Good alignment and a focus on defending the good things in nature has a DR that can be overcome by Good weapons instead of Evil ones, like it usually would be the case.

Five gold pieces say the designer thought "if it's good it needs DR that's effective against evil" and didn't check precedent.


InvisibleBison's analysis suggests that the Crusader's raw damage is comparable to a same-level barbarian—probably better at low optimization levels. It also has solid AC even when nude, takes five points less damage from most attacks, and as a handy bonus it has SLAs. Mostly utility and healing, but that's not nothing. +1 seems like a fair guess.

[Debatra]

+0 - liquidformat, loky1109, Emberlily, BeniKujaku, Remuko
+1 - InvisibleBison, emulord, zlefin, GreatwyrmGold, Tzardok

Four each. I guess I can give it another day or so for final thoughts.

I should also mention that I'm going to be without internet for a while in a few days. I'll get the next entry up before then.

[Remuko]

+0 - liquidformat, loky1109, Emberlily, BeniKujaku
+1 - InvisibleBison, emulord, zlefin, GreatwyrmGold

Four each. I guess I can give it another day or so for final thoughts.

I should also mention that I'm going to be without internet for a while in a few days. I'll get the next entry up before then.

put me down for +0. i definitely don't think this thing is worth LA.

[Tzardok]

I vote +1.

[Metastachydium]

Hm. I get to kingmake? Let's kingmake. +1 from me.

[danielxcutter]

+1 here as well; it decisively has things to make up for the lack of BAB. Also I think this still lets it get 8th-level maneuvers.

[Debatra]

+1 it is then. Time for the last entry for a little while.

[Debatra]

Gruesome Lurker

Size & Type: Large Construct (Psionic)
Space/Reach: 5'/5' ...Okay then.
HD: 3
Speed: 30'
Ability Scores: Str +6, Dex +2, Con -, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +6 - Net , X penalties
Natural Armor: 5
Natural Weapons: Two Primary Claws (1d6)
Skill List: Bluff (+8 racial), Hide (+8 racial), Listen, Move Silently, Spot
Body Shape: Humanoid-ish
Speech (Languages): Yes (Common)
CR: 3
WotC LA: -
Our LA: __

While a gruesome lurker appears to be a misshapen humanoid beast made of flesh and blood, its body is almost entirely hair, with a few claws on each hand and two eyes made of psycholuminescent ectoplasm. A typical specimen weighs 200 pounds and stands 9 feet tall when not compressing its body.

DR 5/Magic at low-enough levels for it to still be relevant, Improved Grab on its claws for creatures smaller than it, and "sensitivity to sunlight" which isn't actually defined anywhere in the creature's statblock.

While in areas of dim light or darker, it can Shadow Jump up to 25' to other dim areas as if using Dimension Door. It can also Distort its Body to fit into any space a Small creature could fit in, while retaining the traits of its normal size ("including reach"... which it doesn't have).

It has three at-will PLAs, each at ML3 and with Cha-based saves: Control Light, Create Sound, and Primal Fear.

Speaking of fear; if it successfully grapples a shaken, frightened, or panicked creature; it can use Fear Eater to force a Charisma-based will save vs 1d4 Wisdom damage and one round of Stun. Notably, there's no 24-hour immunity clause on this.

[danielxcutter]

Constructs and undead with RHD are some of the worst options for PCs, I believe, and the space/reach section and lack of explanation for the sunlight sensitivity makes me think that this isn't exactly one of the most well-written statblocks. That being said I'm kinda surprised this thing isn't Mindless. Reminds me a bit of the Force Golems.

[Inevitability]

Oh hey, I used one of those guys last round of VC!

I think that some alright ideas for where to take this are buried in there; telflammar shadowlord is a big one (fighter 2 sets you up to take Spring Attack at ECL 6), Terrifying Strike is a great way to render foes no-save shaken, monk (or unarmed swordsage) adds iteratives on top of the claws so that's nice, technically they qualify for Scorpion's Grasp right out of the box because of the OA rule that improved grab counts as improved grapple and a natural weapon counts as IUS, there's the makings to build upon that weird fear-grapple thing they do.

Didn't actually notice the space/reach line back then, though. Like huh, kind of goliath-like, the ability to wield weapons and bull rush as if large, but the space and reach of a medium creature.

But like... if I were a goliath, would I take 3 construct RHD to get some SLAs, shadow jump, secondary stat boosts, and fear eater? Usually not. And a shadowpouncing lurker isn't straightforwardly better than a shadowpouncing humanoid. So with that in mind, voting for +0 LA.

[danielxcutter]

Not having a Constitution score is very unhelpful for a martial combatant though. Or anything, really. At least template undead convert their HD to d12s. The extra HP from the large size drops off quickly, as does the DR. Construct isn’t a very well-supported type either.

[Tzardok]

A naturally occuring construct. How rare. If I had designed this, it probably would've been a fey, an undead or an outsider.

[danielxcutter]

Maybe aberration. But yeah, weird.

[Inevitability]

I think construct moreso than other types is very much about material - being made out of nonliving matter implies a set of immunities that requires you to go either undead or construct, even if the lurker has a fey- or aberration-typical backstory, if you want it to make sense, you need to make it a construct. The alternative is that you end up something like the dwarf ancestor, where this spirit-possessed stone statue is suddenly vulnerable to sneak attacks, critical hits, and poison.

As for why it's not an undead, eh, I feel like that'd introduce a lot of baggage in fluff and mechanics both. The lurker wouldn't make for a very straightforward undead, it doesn't really forward an element of attrition as undead normally do, its fluff is an awkward fit at best... Better to say 'stray psionic energy can animate detritus into a construct' and leave it at that.

...that said, I think I could get on board with ooze gruesome lurkers.

[loky1109]

I want to draw your attention to this part.

Gruesome lurkers in well-populated areas often have a steady diet, and they may become stronger and more skilled than normal. Every Hit Die it gains increases its manifester level for psionic powers by 1.

Yeah, it is relevant only for primal fear, but still.

And as I know "+8 racial bonus on Bluff" is rare case. And useful.

For me even with 3 Construct HDs it isn't bad enough to give it -0. I vote +0 LA.

---

Oh hey, I used one of those guys last round of VC!

I used it, too.

[InvisibleBison]

I think the benefits this thing gets are strong enough to make up for how weak construct hit dice are, so I'll also vote LA +0.

[danielxcutter]

I want to draw your attention to this part.

Yeah, it is relevant only for primal fear, but still.

And as I know "+8 racial bonus on Bluff" is rare case. And useful.

For me even with 3 Construct HDs it isn't bad enough to give it -0. I vote +0 LA.

---

I used it, too.

Well, the only thing it affects for Primal Fear is the range unless increasing ML also gives free augmentation and beating SR. Though it might let you qualify for item creation feats.

[Inevitability]

Well, the only thing it affects for Primal Fear is the range unless increasing ML also gives free augmentation and beating SR. Though it might let you qualify for item creation feats.

PLAs are automatically augmented up to their manifester level.

When a creature uses a psi-like ability, the power is manifested as if the creature had spent a number of power points equal to its manifester level, which may augment the power to improve its damage or save DC. However, the creature does not actually spend power points for its psi-like abilities, even if it has a power point reserve due to racial abilities, class levels, or some other psionic ability.

[danielxcutter]

Oh that does become a tad more handy then. The DC's still going to suck but if you fear-blast the entire opposition someone's probably going to blow their save before like, 11th level.

What'd this go for? Rogue?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Size & Type: Large Construct (Psionic)
Space/Reach: 5'/5' ...Okay then.

Come one, come all! See freaks from all around the 3.5 world! Today, we have something very special to display—the world's smallest large monster!

I think construct moreso than other types is very much about material - being made out of nonliving matter implies a set of immunities that requires you to go either undead or construct [...] The alternative is that you end up something like the dwarf ancestor, where this spirit-possessed stone statue is suddenly vulnerable to sneak attacks, critical hits, and poison.

Not strictly true.

• Elementals are immune to sneak attacks, critical hits, and poison. Also sleep, paralysis, stunning, starvation, asphyxiation, and resurrection.
• Oozes are immune to sneak attacks, critical hits, poison, sleep, paralysis, and stunning. Also gaze attacks, polymorph, optical illusions, and mind games.
• Plants are immune to sneak attacks, critical hits, sleep, paralysis, stunning, polymorph, mind-affecting effects, and—inexplicably—poison.

None of these really fits "cloud of monster scraps animated by mass fear," but one fits "spirit-possessed stone statue" pretty well.

[Inevitability]

Not strictly true.

• Elementals are immune to sneak attacks, critical hits, and poison. Also sleep, paralysis, stunning, starvation, asphyxiation, and resurrection.
• Oozes are immune to sneak attacks, critical hits, poison, sleep, paralysis, and stunning. Also gaze attacks, polymorph, optical illusions, and mind games.
• Plants are immune to sneak attacks, critical hits, sleep, paralysis, stunning, polymorph, mind-affecting effects, and—inexplicably—poison.

None of these really fits "cloud of monster scraps animated by mass fear," but one fits "spirit-possessed stone statue" pretty well.

Oh yeah, I didn't mean to imply that dwarf ancestors should be constructs necessarily. I was trying to say, separately:

-Something like the gruesome lurker, which is an animated lump of biological matter, should probably be either a construct or undead.
-The dwarf ancestor being an outsider is really weird.

[Debatra]

Come one, come all! See freaks from all around the 3.5 world! Today, we have something very special to display—the world's smallest large monster!

Sadly, it's not even the only one.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Oh yeah, I didn't mean to imply that dwarf ancestors should be constructs necessarily. I was trying to say, separately:

-Something like the gruesome lurker, which is an animated lump of biological matter, should probably be either a construct or undead.
-The dwarf ancestor being an outsider is really weird.

Three points I'd like to make:

• I like the Gruesome Lurker's concept, but it's a bad fit for the assumptions implicit in D&D's creature type system. It's not artificial or necromantic, so it doesn't fit the implications of Construct or the metaphysics of Undead. (The latter definitely have more impact on D&D monsters, of course.)
• The dwarf ancestor really should have been an elemental with funky sybtypes.
• Seriously, why are plants immune to poison??

[Tzardok]

Because most toxins are specced against muscles or nerves or other stuff that plants don't have. Have a spider bite a flower and tell me how well it works.
Note though that plants are explicitely called out as one of the types for which you can create specialized poisons.

[danielxcutter]

Except that a lot of other beings with decisively different biological makeups are still at least technically vulnerable to most poisons (especially since there are ways to increase the DC by significant amounts), and there's no actual guidelines or examples of making plant-specific poisons either last time I checked.

Man, this system really does have a lot of holes if you look closely, doesn't it?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Constructs and undead with RHD are some of the worst options for PCs, I believe, and the space/reach section and lack of explanation for the sunlight sensitivity makes me think that this isn't exactly one of the most well-written statblocks. That being said I'm kinda surprised this thing isn't Mindless. Reminds me a bit of the Force Golems.

It's supposed to be a boogeyman, lurking under one's bed to tickle one's toes while they sleep. That or a sleep paralysis demon, considering the grappling focus. In both cases, being weakened when in full light seems logical. A fear that is understood is a fear no more. I think the sunlight sensitivity is meant to reflect this, and to make DMs use it mainly in the dark, creating a better air of menace. That's also the reason why it is not mindless. Its aim is to terrify, and you cannot do that without a bit of inventivity. The space/reach, I think comes from it being initially thought as a Medium creature. If you look closely, the whole statblock corresponds to a Medium creature, including the grappling bonus and Hide bonus. Only the first line, the HP line and the description below as a 9ft tall creature point towards it being Large.

I think construct moreso than other types is very much about material - being made out of nonliving matter implies a set of immunities that requires you to go either undead or construct, even if the lurker has a fey- or aberration-typical backstory, if you want it to make sense, you need to make it a construct. The alternative is that you end up something like the dwarf ancestor, where this spirit-possessed stone statue is suddenly vulnerable to sneak attacks, critical hits, and poison.

As for why it's not an undead, eh, I feel like that'd introduce a lot of baggage in fluff and mechanics both. The lurker wouldn't make for a very straightforward undead, it doesn't really forward an element of attrition as undead normally do, its fluff is an awkward fit at best... Better to say 'stray psionic energy can animate detritus into a construct' and leave it at that.

...that said, I think I could get on board with ooze gruesome lurkers.

I mean, the Astral Construct is the very definition of a Construct being created from the psionic energy of creatures around it. That they did not give the energy willingly in the GLurker's case does not invalidate the fact that it was brought into existence by other creatures using a body composed of non-elemental inanimate matter. It's very similar to a Ragamoffyn. Someone leaves clothes lying around. Some mage unleashes arcane armaggedon nearby. The clothes wake up from the noise, and try to take over the world. No one wanted to create this, or used any experience to that end, but it was still created, and it is still a construct.

PLAs are automatically augmented up to their manifester level.

It's actually much worse than that. The text does not talk about PLAs, but about all psionic powers. Thus, a Gruesome Lurker with a level of Psychic Warrior or Ardent, and then of another class would still improve in ML, making Ardent levels similar to initiator levels in that taking them apart from each other could allow the Lurker to reach higher-level powers than taking them all at once. Considering it's also Large, roughly humanoid and has pretty good stats as well as some Shadowlord synergy, I think I will vote for LA+1.

[Metastachydium]

Because most toxins are specced against muscles or nerves or other stuff that plants don't have. Have a spider bite a flower and tell me how well it works.

HAH! In your face, animal( the taxon, not the type)-derived stuff!

and there's no actual guidelines or examples of making plant-specific poisons either last time I checked.

Ah, yes. The knowledge that we can shrug off your puny poisons with ease whereas most of your fancy herbicides will mess up an animal just as bad must be really frustrating!

[danielxcutter]

HAH! In your face, animal( the taxon, not the type)-derived stuff!



Ah, yes. The knowledge that we can shrug off your puny poisons with ease whereas most of your fancy herbicides will mess up an animal just as bad must be really frustrating!

(*casts Horrid Wilting*)