Girl Genius XXXII: The scientific method at work!

[lord_khaine]

Are we forgetting that Gilgamesh Wulfenbach ruled an empire for two or so years, and though he wasn't exactly competent, he wasn't really evil either?

We are not forgetting anything.
Initially, it should be pointed out, using a protagonist like Gilgamesh as a baseline for anything, is about as valid as using Batman as a baseline for how safe it is to push people off a roof.
Also. Gilgamesh is extremely competent. As seen by everything not having gone up into flames. But the Baron left extremely large shoes to fill with limited preparation.

Apart from the fact that Tarvek had a boatload of character development since then, we can just look at only their first appearances and still see that Tarvek isn't on the same level as Martellus. Tarvek is clearly a lot more affable just from seeing how he acts in Vol. 5, and even if he planned to use slaver wasps, it's apparently more from just not thinking about how bad they are.

Aside from what? Yeah that again illustrates the point. Pre-Agartha, Tarvek was a prime example of how sparks are.
Plotting to take power with mind control bugs. Basically as bad as everyone else. Just more subtle.
Then slowly redeemed because he came under the sway of a more charismatic spark.

But i still dont see what a follower of the main character illustrates.
Besides a previous point of "yes things can work if the strongest spark who sets the tone is a good person"

[Shining Wrath]

Ah, not Albia, but Monahan is messing with people's minds. And "use the levers that are already there" sounds very practical and also quite Machiavellian.

In a cast full of people who are various shades of moral grey, Albia remains on the middle-dark spectrum. Monahan I think is a little darker, e.g., "That's it, everyone on this island who is not a rat is going to die" level ruthless.

[Traab]

Ah, not Albia, but Monahan is messing with people's minds. And "use the levers that are already there" sounds very practical and also quite Machiavellian.

In a cast full of people who are various shades of moral grey, Albia remains on the middle-dark spectrum. Monahan I think is a little darker, e.g., "That's it, everyone on this island who is not a rat is going to die" level ruthless.

I mean, it just seems to be saying "Its easier to make people do something if they already want to do it." Like, telling a person who just pulled an all nighter to sleep is going to be easier than the guy who just shotgunned an 8 shot espresso ultra caffinated sugary monstrosity 5 minutes after waking up. Its not particularly dark or evil, just logical.

[DavidSh]

We are not forgetting anything.
Initially, it should be pointed out, using a protagonist like Gilgamesh as a baseline for anything, is about as valid as using Batman as a baseline for how safe it is to push people off a roof.
Also. Gilgamesh is extremely competent. As seen by everything not having gone up into flames. But the Baron left extremely large shoes to fill with limited preparation.

And don't forget the overlay the Baron put on Gil's brain. Besides serving as an unwanted protection against Agatha, it probably also helped with the administration.

[MPHJack7]

Also. Gilgamesh is extremely competent. As seen by everything not having gone up into flames. But the Baron left extremely large shoes to fill with limited preparation.

I'll admit that I should have worded that better. Gil wasn't incompetent, but the empire did fall apart under his watch. Then again, Tarvek reluctantly concluded that it wasn't Gil's fault.
Speaking of Tarvek...

Aside from what? Yeah that again illustrates the point. Pre-Agartha, Tarvek was a prime example of how sparks are.
Plotting to take power with mind control bugs. Basically as bad as everyone else. Just more subtle.
Then slowly redeemed because he came under the sway of a more charismatic spark.

I was comparing Tarvek to Martellus. My point is that, even before he became a better person, Tarvek was still not as bad as Martellus, which can be seen in the fact that Tarvek has a notably smaller kill count. Plus, the fact that Tarvek has enough capacity for self-reflection to become better in the first place is a notable difference.

But i still dont see what a follower of the main character illustrates.
Besides a previous point of "yes things can work if the strongest spark who sets the tone is a good person"

My point was explained in one of my previous posts. To give a refresher of what I said there (in case I wasn't wording it clearly):

• Most of the "good" sparks we've seen were given good influences growing up. Bill & Barry had their mother; Agatha had Punch & Judy; many more like Gil or Tarvek were educated on Castle Wulfenbach.
• The "bad" sparks we've seen... didn't have that. Tarvek may have been thrown off Castle Wulfenbach early, but Martellus (seemingly) got all of his lessons from Vapnoople.
• Of course, this isn't to say that everyone would be moral if they got a proper education, but I bring this up specifically to show that there's more to it than "spark = evil megalomaniac, exceptions don't change this rule." Because the exceptions are quite consistent.

Though looking back at the comic, I do think that there's some validity to my "nurture over nature" hypothesis of spark behaviour. Namely in this Vol. 11 scene:

Gil: "You're just now realizing that you're a slimy toad who failed 'Ethics of Government 101,' right?"
Tarvek: "Yeah, well, I didn't take that class. I didn't take any of them. I was thrown off your high and mighty airship. I got my lessons by surviving amongst a bunch of evil-minded, cynical, backstabbing old fools, who were still somehow smart enough to hide an army from your father."

Again, this isn't to say that education is everything (it isn't). But it's clearly something.

[lord_khaine]

I was comparing Tarvek to Martellus. My point is that, even before he became a better person, Tarvek was still not as bad as Martellus, which can be seen in the fact that Tarvek has a notably smaller kill count. Plus, the fact that Tarvek has enough capacity for self-reflection to become better in the first place is a notable difference.

And my counter point became that it was still not significant if Tarvek was possibly better than Martellus. Even that point is debateable.
But either way he remained a horrible scheming snake until caught up in Agartha's wake.
And still engaged what i called out as the core of all spark problems. The attempt to usurp power at any cost.
Even in this case making a deal with what was as close to the devil as possible.

My point was explained in one of my previous posts. To give a refresher of what I said there (in case I wasn't wording it clearly):

Your stance was indeed explained already. Hence no need to repeat it.
It still dont change the main counterpoint put up.
That the majority of your examples are main characters.
And hence a bad baseline.

Because. The problem is we dont just have a few bad Sparks. We have a story littered in them.
Far, far to many to be explained by bad upbringing. And also, directly according to the author in the secret blueprint.
Sparks are mad scientists. Their nature runs directly towards ignoring their lessers on topics such as "ethics".
https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/com...?date=20070829

[WanderingMist]

I was comparing Tarvek to Martellus. My point is that, even before he became a better person, Tarvek was still not as bad as Martellus, which can be seen in the fact that Tarvek has a notably smaller kill count. Plus, the fact that Tarvek has enough capacity for self-reflection to become better in the first place is a notable difference.

Given that Martellus' main victims are family members, doesn't that make Tarvek worse for not killing them off faster?

[MPHJack7]

And my counter point became that it was still not significant if Tarvek was possibly better than Martellus. Even that point is debateable.
But either way he remained a horrible scheming snake until caught up in Agartha's wake.
And still engaged what i called out as the core of all spark problems. The attempt to usurp power at any cost.
Even in this case making a deal with what was as close to the devil as possible.

Your stance was indeed explained already. Hence no need to repeat it.
It still dont change the main counterpoint put up.
That the majority of your examples are main characters.
And hence a bad baseline.

Okay, if you want me to narrow it down to non-main characters:
"Ha! Not every spark is crashing around trying to take over Europa, you know! Some of us get to work on trains!" - A non-main character.
Granted, Bro. Matthias has his vices, but taking over the world isn't one of them.
And it's not just him. Master Payne's circus is comprised of sparks. There's also Trelawney Thorpe, who seems content being a secret agent in England. We also have Dr. Sun, who is mostly content with just being a doctor in Mechanicsburg. I bet that I can dig up any number of one-shot minor characters, too.
You could argue that those are all weaker sparks, and thus also aren't a good sample size. But even then, we have the Master of Paris, content with his city-state. We also have Theo DuMedd (of the Mongfish clan!) who isn't particularly hegemonic either.

It's also worth mentioning that the story of the comic is only gonna show us the most plot-relevant details, so it's not like we even have a view of the entire setting to begin with.

Because. The problem is we dont just have a few bad Sparks. We have a story littered in them.
Far, far to many to be explained by bad upbringing. And also, directly according to the author in the secret blueprint.
Sparks are mad scientists. Their nature runs directly towards ignoring their lessers on topics such as "ethics".

I'm looking at both (our forum's copy of) the Secret Blueprints and at your link, and while both say that the urge to violently Show Them All is common among sparks, neither actually say that it's inherent to their nature.

There's also still the fact that, of the sparks who grew up under Baron Wulfenbach's regime, the ones we've seen on-screen are shown to be a lot more well-adjusted. This would seem to hint that the Baron actually did create a system in which spark-adjacent troubles can be significantly reduced without just getting rid of all sparks. (I believe the novels actually imply it more openly.)
Not to mention how the Storm King also appeared to have set up a functional system while also allowing sparks to exist. In fact, the sparks who toppled his regime (those being the Heterodynes) were notably not within his borders. The failure of both the Storm King's system and the Baron's rests on the fact that they lasted only as long as their leaders did.

[lord_khaine]

Okay, if you want me to narrow it down to non-main characters:
"Ha! Not every spark is crashing around trying to take over Europa, you know! Some of us get to work on trains!" - A non-main character.

And it's not just him. Master Payne's circus is comprised of sparks. There's also Trelawney Thorpe, who seems content being a secret agent in England. We also have Dr. Sun, who is mostly content with just being a doctor in Mechanicsburg. I bet that I can dig up any number of one-shot minor characters, too.

It's also worth mentioning that the story of the comic is only gonna show us the most plot-relevant details, so it's not like we even have a view of the entire setting to begin with.

Yes. He actually confirms my entire point as well. Since he directly have to point out he isnt one of the ones that want to take over the world.
He would not have to do that, if it wasnt because the vast majority of them are trying to do that.

And yes we have the circus as well. Their entire part is indeed that they weak spark.
Just sparky enough to be recognized. Not quite sparky enough to be able to fend for themselves.
But they are still all bat-**** crazy. As seen by when Zeetha sprained her ankle and one of the suggestions were to replace her leg.

But yes indeed. We are only shown the most relevant details. The outstanding bits. Hence why i dont put to much weight upon the exceptions mentioned.
Like Sun or Trawne. We directly see they are exceptional sparks. But we are also repeatedly informed that the majority of Europe is or was a chaotic madhouse.
Keeping order in the empire would not be a 24/7 job for the baron, and large parts of europe would not be designated wasteland if sparks were mostly serious.

I'm looking at both (our forum's copy of) the Secret Blueprints and at your link, and while both say that the urge to violently Show Them All is common among sparks, neither actually say that it's inherent to their nature.

Urg seriously?.. we got direct word of god on this. And your nitpicking the word of god on it choosing to not to use the word inherent?
I think we are done on this. You can believe what you want. I think ill go with the author.

[Shining Wrath]

Okay, if you want me to narrow it down to non-main characters:
"Ha! Not every spark is crashing around trying to take over Europa, you know! Some of us get to work on trains!" - A non-main character.
Granted, Bro. Matthias has his vices, but taking over the world isn't one of them.
And it's not just him. Master Payne's circus is comprised of sparks. There's also Trelawney Thorpe, who seems content being a secret agent in England. We also have Dr. Sun, who is mostly content with just being a doctor in Mechanicsburg. I bet that I can dig up any number of one-shot minor characters, too.
You could argue that those are all weaker sparks, and thus also aren't a good sample size. But even then, we have the Master of Paris, content with his city-state. We also have Theo DuMedd (of the Mongfish clan!) who isn't particularly hegemonic either.

It's also worth mentioning that the story of the comic is only gonna show us the most plot-relevant details, so it's not like we even have a view of the entire setting to begin with.

I'm looking at both (our forum's copy of) the Secret Blueprints and at your link, and while both say that the urge to violently Show Them All is common among sparks, neither actually say that it's inherent to their nature.

There's also still the fact that, of the sparks who grew up under Baron Wulfenbach's regime, the ones we've seen on-screen are shown to be a lot more well-adjusted. This would seem to hint that the Baron actually did create a system in which spark-adjacent troubles can be significantly reduced without just getting rid of all sparks. (I believe the novels actually imply it more openly.)
Not to mention how the Storm King also appeared to have set up a functional system while also allowing sparks to exist. In fact, the sparks who toppled his regime (those being the Heterodynes) were notably not within his borders. The failure of both the Storm King's system and the Baron's rests on the fact that they lasted only as long as their leaders did.

I'd be careful with calling Dr. Sun a weaker Spark, given his ability to trash a large battle mech in seconds, and to tell the Baron what to do and be (reluctantly) obeyed.

[The Glyphstone]

Arent the radio plays explicitly non-canon, or at least dubiously quasi-canon'? I'm not sure they can be counted as Word of God anyways, being in-universe monologues even if the characters are drawn to be expies of P+K.

[MPHJack7]

I'd be careful with calling Dr. Sun a weaker Spark, given his ability to trash a large battle mech in seconds, and to tell the Baron what to do and be (reluctantly) obeyed.

In honesty, when typing up that post, I was debating which side of the fence to put him on. I only filed him as "weaker" since he's not Master-of-Paris level (which isn't the best benchmark to go off now that I think of it).

[lord_khaine]

Arent the radio plays explicitly non-canon, or at least dubiously quasi-canon'? I'm not sure they can be counted as Word of God anyways, being in-universe monologues even if the characters are drawn to be expies of P+K.

I think we can count on them as pretty solidly cannon when they are explaining basic universal concepts.
Such as the spark of mad genius.

[Manga Shoggoth]

I'd be careful with calling Dr. Sun a weaker Spark, given his ability to trash a large battle mech in seconds, and to tell the Baron what to do and be (reluctantly) obeyed.

And also scare the living *** out of Bang sufficiently that she does what he says. With a perfectly straight face.

[Shining Wrath]

Dr. Sun may be the example of a Spark Othar shouldn't kill. He's clearly a Spark; we never see him do anything except try to heal injured people (and keep them alive from assassins). So far as we have seen he uses his powers for good. If he has a lust for power and domination it's not seen. He does think his patients should do as they are told but that's a thing of doctors, not Sparks.

[WanderingMist]

Dr. Sun may be the example of a Spark Othar shouldn't kill. He's clearly a Spark; we never see him do anything except try to heal injured people (and keep them alive from assassins). So far as we have seen he uses his powers for good. If he has a lust for power and domination it's not seen. He does think his patients should do as they are told but that's a thing of doctors, not Sparks.

Othar is reasonable enough to want to go in descending order of evil for his killing of all Sparks, seeing as he wants to save the heroic ones for last, so Sun would probably be at the bottom of his list anyway.

[Shining Wrath]

Othar is reasonable enough to want to go in descending order of evil for his killing of all Sparks, seeing as he wants to save the heroic ones for last, so Sun would probably be at the bottom of his list anyway.

There's a huge difference between "I kill you last" and "I let you live". Lucrezia was going to kill Martellus last after the smooch in the undersea lab.

Today we see that Monahan is also not very nice, popping in for tea and threats of continental genocide. And I think I agree with Agatha - this gift may not be as beneficial as Monahan thinks it is.

Another Foglio bit of business - winged rat thinks perhaps Krosp is bite sized, Violetta and Zeetha have other ideas.

[Grim Portent]

Othar is reasonable enough to want to go in descending order of evil for his killing of all Sparks, seeing as he wants to save the heroic ones for last, so Sun would probably be at the bottom of his list anyway.

He also seems to kill random sparks opportunistically. When he finds out Agatha is a spark he immediately defaulted to trying to kill her before he found out she was Bill's kid and assumes she's got hero potential. It can be assumed that if he knew the circus were sparks he'd try to kill them all with minimal hesitation.

Most of Othar's appearances in the comic have been under circumstances where he isn't at liberty to kill every spark he meets, or doesn't know he's speaking to sparks, and on the occasions he has tried to kill sparks on screen he's failed anyway, but the only times he seems fine with that limitation is when he thinks the other sparks are potential sidekicks for his own adventure.


I'm going to guess that at some point he's going to conclude that the whole genocide thing is unreasonable and move to only being heroic, but as is his genocidal desires seem to have taken a backseat to his pulpy hero shtick anyway, in a similar fashion to how Tarvek and Gil have become protagonists rather than antagonists.

[lord_khaine]

I find it a little unlikely Othar doesnt know the circus people are sparks.
We have repeatedly been told and shown he actually is very bright.
And even the Baron considered him a dangerous headache.

He has also interacted a lot with the circus people. Seemingly regularly watching their shows.

Because of that i do find it more plausible he has done some internal rationalizing,
to move them towards the end of the 'to do' list. Like because they are hardly sparks.
Or because they spread heroic stories that might inspire others.

Honestly when speaking of Othar. It is quite possible that the destruction of Oslo (capital of his homeland)
drove him slightly insane. And that he knows his grand mission is close to impossible even for him.
But that he dont have a better plan. And until then he -does- save a lot of people.

[WanderingMist]

Everyone also forgets Othar is a hero to everyone who isn't a Spark. The reason he appears crazy to us is that the main cast, and basically anyone they interact with, is made up near-entirely of Sparks. But most of Europa isn't Sparks. Most of Europa and the rest of the world is just ordinary people. Well, "ordinary" for the Girl Genius world.

[Shining Wrath]

It seems that one of the benefits of ascending to Queendom is NOT sanity. I can't wait to see what the better idea is.

[Grim Portent]

I'd accept the giant flying rat myself.

[theangelJean]

Apparently all rodents say "Skree!" in the GGverse, not just wasp-eaters. I did wonder if maybe Monahan might give Agatha's wasp-eater wings - which might be kind of troublesome.


Kid is reading the archives at the moment - we went past the place where they met Prende herself. Whicn reminds me that Ninisinaa's Star was not just taken from Ninisinaa by Lucrezia, but it was then converted to Prende's lantern - maybe by van Rijn, maybe before that.

My new theory is that Lu went around killing Queens, relieving them of their stuff, and bringing trophies to van Rijn, who then used them to make the Muses. Maybe she wanted to impress van Rijn and/or Andronicus Valois for some reason. She might even have impersonated Euphrosynia Heterodyne - Agatha has been noted to resemble each of them.

[Shining Wrath]

Apparently all rodents say "Skree!" in the GGverse, not just wasp-eaters. I did wonder if maybe Monahan might give Agatha's wasp-eater wings - which might be kind of troublesome.


Kid is reading the archives at the moment - we went past the place where they met Prende herself. Whicn reminds me that Ninisinaa's Star was not just taken from Ninisinaa by Lucrezia, but it was then converted to Prende's lantern - maybe by van Rijn, maybe before that.

My new theory is that Lu went around killing Queens, relieving them of their stuff, and bringing trophies to van Rijn, who then used them to make the Muses. Maybe she wanted to impress van Rijn and/or Andronicus Valois for some reason. She might even have impersonated Euphrosynia Heterodyne - Agatha has been noted to resemble each of them.

Dark corollary: van Rijn knew she was becoming The Other, but cooperated in order to advance his interests in the Muse of Time. And that cooperation extended to helping create weapons Lu could use to kill Queens.

[DavidSh]

Apparently all rodents say "Skree!" in the GGverse, not just wasp-eaters. I did wonder if maybe Monahan might give Agatha's wasp-eater wings - which might be kind of troublesome.

I always thought of the wasp-eaters as being Carnivora rather than Rodentia, although I am undecided between canids and mustelids. Is there contrary evidence?

-- after a little search --
https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/com...?date=20120618 says they were derived from weasels. So, mustelid carnivores.

[PraetorDragoon]

Sounds like Agatha is making good use of "the levers that are already there"

[Mobius Twist]

Circling around on former Queens, this mirror in Mechanicsburg doesn't look like it was looted from elsewhere and reconstructed (given all the decoration). Have we seen the local Queen anywhere in flashbacks before?

[Fyraltari]

Circling around on former Queens, this mirror in Mechanicsburg doesn't look like it was looted from elsewhere and reconstructed (given all the decoration). Have we seen the local Queen anywhere in flashbacks before?

No, but there used to be a cult dedicated to a "battle goddess" around the Dyne.

[Shining Wrath]

No, but there used to be a cult dedicated to a "battle goddess" around the Dyne.

I keep telling you lot, the Castle is the Queen. The Castle feeds off the energy of the Dyne.

[Fyraltari]

I keep telling you lot, the Castle is the Queen. The Castle feeds off the energy of the Dyne.

T'was before the castle was built.