Baldur's Gate 3 II: The Urge for a Second Playthrough

[Zevox]

Spoiler: Bhaalspawn

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Considering that you can play as one and that Orin can potentially be the main character's sister, no they are not pretty much irrelevant to the game's plot. They can be depending on how you play through a Tav run, but they're an integral part of the Dark Urge plot.

Spoiler: Bhaalspawn

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That is an optional sub-plot that only happens for one particular version of the main character. That is not the main plot at all. The main plot doesn't care about Bhaalspawn in any way, and would happen without them basically the same as it does with them.

[Errorname]

Spoiler: Bhaalspawn

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That is an optional sub-plot that only happens for one particular version of the main character. That is not the main plot at all. The main plot doesn't care about Bhaalspawn in any way, and would happen without them basically the same as it does with them.

Spoiler: Bhaalspawn

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If taken the Dark Urge and their drama becomes the personal quest of the main character, and any irrelevance in the rest of the game is because so much of the stuff concerning Bhaalspawn was siloed into the Dark Urge plot

[Zevox]

Spoiler: Bhaalspawn

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If taken the Dark Urge and their drama becomes the personal quest of the main character, and any irrelevance in the rest of the game is because so much of the stuff concerning Bhaalspawn was siloed into the Dark Urge plot

That amounts to a rephrasing of what I just said, so not sure what you think your point is there.

[BRC]

So I was burning through stacks of lockpicks in the counting house (as you do)

Spoiler

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and I broke into Gortash's Vault, I think it's Vault no 6, and he's got a book there.

Apparently when they were raiding the demon vault, they found the Crown alongside a book outlining the whole scheme to use the crown on an elder brain and create a tamed cult of pseudo-mind flayers. Gortash didn't even come up with it, but the next words in his diary are "This was a scheme so brilliant only I, the Chosen of Bane, could have come up with it!" and I find that hilarious.

[LCP]

The way to be evil and oppose the Absolute is to ignore the Tiefling/Grove crisis entirely.

That's kind of what I mean - there are good ways to engage with the grove, and stupid-evil ways to engage with the grove, but if you want to roleplay evil + smart, your only option is not to engage. There's nothing interesting there for that kind of character, you're just skipping a chunk of the game.

Same is kind of true in Act 2, you can either help the good guys or blindly follow along with the guys who you know are responsible for the tadpoles, and who you have no reason to believe would help you get rid of yours.

There's even an 'evil but not crazy' option that gets dangled in front of you early in act 1 (Raphael), but if you say 'yes' right away he essentially says 'no, wait til Act 3'.

[Keltest]

That's kind of what I mean - there are good ways to engage with the grove, and stupid-evil ways to engage with the grove, but if you want to roleplay evil + smart, your only option is not to engage. There's nothing interesting there for that kind of character, you're just skipping a chunk of the game.

Same is kind of true in Act 2, you can either help the good guys or blindly follow along with the guys who you know are responsible for the tadpoles, and who you have no reason to believe would help you get rid of yours.

There's even an 'evil but not crazy' option that gets dangled in front of you early in act 1 (Raphael), but if you say 'yes' right away he essentially says 'no, wait til Act 3'.

Well I mean, smart evil avoids danger if possible. Smart evil doesn't slaughter for the sake of it, or entangle themselves with stupid evil people if they can help it. Heck, Gortash says as much about Orin in act 3.

[Errorname]

That amounts to a rephrasing of what I just said, so not sure what you think your point is there.

I guess we have different standards for 'irrelevant', because to my mind if something has a potential game long presence and a dedicated possible ending it's not irrelevant.

That's kind of what I mean - there are good ways to engage with the grove, and stupid-evil ways to engage with the grove, but if you want to roleplay evil + smart, your only option is not to engage. There's nothing interesting there for that kind of character, you're just skipping a chunk of the game.

It's a shame, because I think you could have very easily made a version of that quest for an evil player that didn't cut the Tiefling refugee plot short. They're going to end up in Moonrise Towers if you save them anyways

Well I mean, smart evil avoids danger if possible. Smart evil doesn't slaughter for the sake of it, or entangle themselves with stupid evil people if they can help it. Heck, Gortash says as much about Orin in act 3.

Funny for him to start ranting about smart evil, since Gortash's entire plan is absurdly dangerous and basically doomed to failure even if everything goes right.

[Keltest]

Funny for him to start ranting about smart evil, since Gortash's entire plan is absurdly dangerous and basically doomed to failure even if everything goes right.

The version they end up enacting is somewhat different than what they started with. Gortash originally made the plan with

Spoiler

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The Dark Urge

but they were taken out, and replaced by Orrin, who was a substantially less stable member of the trio. Instead of a unified alliance who all got along, you had a grumpy old man, a crazy mass murderer and a tyrant with no control over the scheme by himself.

[LCP]

Well I mean, smart evil avoids danger if possible.

There's nothing evil about that. It's just the smart part.

My point here is about the options the writing chooses to provide in ways to play the game, rather than just skipping bits of it. The game has lots of sidequests (e.g. Ethel) which offer genuinely interesting opportunities for an evil character to be evil without just skipping them. It's just the main quest that trips over by tying the 'evil' options so strongly to the Absolute cult (which any character with a sense of self preservation or who values their own free will has no reason to help).

[Errorname]

Instead of a unified alliance who all got along, you had a grumpy old man, a crazy mass murderer and a tyrant with no control over the scheme by himself.

That’s the exact same dynamic as the original trio except with a slightly more unstable mass murderer

[Keltest]

That’s the exact same dynamic as the original trio except with a slightly more unstable mass murderer

Gortash, at least, seems to be under the impression that the original trio had self control that Orin lacks.

[LCP]

He's wrong though.

Spoiler

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Ketheric will tell you he plans to betray the others. Durge has a diary entry you can find promising Bhaal they'll still kill Gortash even though they respect him

[BRC]

Spoiler

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I'm pretty sure the plan was ALWAYS for everybody to betray everybody else.

I think Gortash is less upset about Orin trying to betray him than he is about her making his life difficult and continuing to fail the murder marshmallow test rather than being a good co-conspirator and paitiently waiting for an opportunity to betray him.

[Jophiel]

It's legitimately ridiculous/infuriating. I could understand it if she was a complete jerk/unrepentant murderer with no redeeming value, like Morinth from Mass Effect 2 or something, but she's not that at all. She's actually a good (well, amenable anyway) victim of the Absolute with surprising amounts of depth, who did her best to survive without having the protection we all take for granted. Even right after meeting her, she expresses remorse for the brutal acts the Absolute made her perform.

Eh, her main complaint is that the Absolute forced her to do it. She doesn't really have any qualms about performing evil provided her goals merit it. When she asks you why you slaughtered the Grove, the only answer she seriously objects to is the one saying you did it for the lulz. But every reason that was goal related gets either her mechanical +approval or "Heh, yeah..."

I liked my run with Minthara but she's evil. She says some hilariously eff'd up stuff in Act III. Also...

Spoiler: Minor Spoiler

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For all that she resents being controlled, once we discovered the whole plot, she was "So, we're gonna dominate the brain instead, right? And rule as dictators? 'Cause that's 100% what we should be doing."

SHE doesn't like being dominated but she's all on board with ruling as God-Queen and dominating everyone else. She doesn't even have Gale's pseudo-religious philosophic reasons for why him keeping the Crown might be warranted or Astarion's "After centuries of pain, no one will ever hurt or scare me again" reasons for wanting to hijack the ritual. She's just "This is a great way to become rulers and we should be doing this because, you know, we'd be rulers, duh."

She doesn't sit around laughing manically while eating a bag of orphan kittens (that's Orin's job) but she's well south of the Neutral line. Which I actually appreciated.

[Anonymouswizard]

Spoiler

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I'm pretty sure the plan was ALWAYS for everybody to betray everybody else.

I think Gortash is less upset about Orin trying to betray him than he is about her making his life difficult and continuing to fail the murder marshmallow test rather than being a good co-conspirator and paitiently waiting for an opportunity to betray him.

Spoiler

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Not got too far into Act 3 yet, but the reading I get is that the difference between Durge and Orin was restraint. Prom as a Changeling is playing serial killer on easy mode, especially as she's shown to easily assume identities on the fly just to mess with the party. The Durge meanwhile survived committing a murder spree and fifteen years of life as Bhaal's chosen WITHOUT having her shapeshifting.

Gortash gets along better with Durge because Durge was looking at the bigger picture. Before Orin shoved the tadpole in they'd have killed Isobel, but only once everybody was getting ready to assault Moonrise Towers.

[diplomancer]

I'd guess early release gets a bit of the blame on the whole Minthara stuff. They needed a "good end scene" (Tiefling celebration) and an "evil end scene" (Goblin celebration). Skipping the Grove completely, I suppose, meant you didn't finish the game.

[Errorname]

I liked my run with Minthara but she's evil. She says some hilariously eff'd up stuff in Act III.

She doesn't sit around laughing manically while eating a bag of orphan kittens (that's Orin's job) but she's well south of the Neutral line. Which I actually appreciated.

Sure, but so are Astarion, Shadowheart and Lae’zel, at least to start. It would not take much for Minthara to fit into a good playthrough, beyond that the game doesn’t have a scenario where she can fail to destroy the grove and kill the tieflings and survive to act 2, but it’s not like you couldn’t have written that outcome.

[Zevox]

I guess we have different standards for 'irrelevant', because to my mind if something has a potential game long presence and a dedicated possible ending it's not irrelevant.

As a reminder of the context here, the claim I was responding to was "No Bhaalspawn, no plot." That the game requires Bhaalspawn to happen. That is clearly not true.

Spoiler

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As far as the main plot, the scheme to use the Absolute to control people, goes, Bhaalspawn are pretty irrelevent. Orin is one, but is the least consequential of the three main villains, could be replaced with a non-Bhaalspawn Chosen of Bhaal with no changes to the main plot, and could be written out entirely easily.

The one thing that does depend upon Bhaalspawn is the Dark Urge origin and its sub-plot, yes. But that is optional, and not the main plot even when you do it.

Sure, but so are Astarion, Shadowheart and Lae’zel, at least to start.

I'd argue Shadowheart starts as True Neutral - she wants to be Neutral Evil, as a Sharran should, but isn't that selfish and malicious. She can end up either NE or NG (or least TN leaning towards NG, if she's not there yet by the end) depending on what happens at her big moment.

Lae'zel and Astarion though, yeah, that's accurate. Hell, I'm not 100% sure Astarion isn't still evil at the end even if you convince him not to go full dark side at the end of his main side quest.

[Jophiel]

Sure, but so are Astarion, Shadowheart and Lae’zel, at least to start.

Sure, though I'd say Lae'zel isn't really evil so much as very strict and narrow-minded (I'd call her Lawful Neutral). But my point was never that no one else has a dark streak, it's that Minthara isn't some abused waif who just wants to be good if only she had the chance. She's evil, she continues having evil thoughts and opinions throughout the game and she has no real inclination to stop being it. She dislikes being dominated/controlled (which is a pretty normal thing to dislike) but she has zero compunction about the idea of dominating others; just the opposite since she actually WANTS to control others by force. She has no "Come to the Light" moment like the others. At best, she has a moment of reflection on her own mortality and place in the world but doesn't actually extend this into compassion for anyone else.

[Cikomyr2]

I'd guess early release gets a bit of the blame on the whole Minthara stuff. They needed a "good end scene" (Tiefling celebration) and an "evil end scene" (Goblin celebration). Skipping the Grove completely, I suppose, meant you didn't finish the game.

Yhea, its purely Act 1 narrative stuff. You can skip the content of Act 1 and just beeline to Moonrise through the mountain pass, right?

I personally don't mind we be given an option to sequence break story beats in an RPG.

[Anonymouswizard]

I'm kind of getting bored with my current playthrough, might just be burnout from Act 3's terrible performance. Starting again from Act 1 to see if that'll let me re-engage with Act 3.

So class picking time, and I want to see how long I can run about in my undies. Which means Barbarian, Monk, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard, and only two of those run off of CHA. So Archfey Warlock it is!

[Psyren]

Eh, her main complaint is that the Absolute forced her to do it. She doesn't really have any qualms about performing evil provided her goals merit it. When she asks you why you slaughtered the Grove, the only answer she seriously objects to is the one saying you did it for the lulz. But every reason that was goal related gets either her mechanical +approval or "Heh, yeah..."

I liked my run with Minthara but she's evil. She says some hilariously eff'd up stuff in Act III. Also...

Spoiler: Minor Spoiler

Show

For all that she resents being controlled, once we discovered the whole plot, she was "So, we're gonna dominate the brain instead, right? And rule as dictators? 'Cause that's 100% what we should be doing."

SHE doesn't like being dominated but she's all on board with ruling as God-Queen and dominating everyone else. She doesn't even have Gale's pseudo-religious philosophic reasons for why him keeping the Crown might be warranted or Astarion's "After centuries of pain, no one will ever hurt or scare me again" reasons for wanting to hijack the ritual. She's just "This is a great way to become rulers and we should be doing this because, you know, we'd be rulers, duh."

She doesn't sit around laughing manically while eating a bag of orphan kittens (that's Orin's job) but she's well south of the Neutral line. Which I actually appreciated.

You mean... literally the same suggestion Astarion makes early on?

Look, I never said she isn't evil; I'm saying she's redeemable, as well as talented/capable enough for redemption to be worthwhile. If we were somehow able to prevent her from slaughtering the grove without killing her, she wouldn't be that much worse - morally speaking - than say Voss, or pre-wipe Shadowheart.

The Guardian sees her as an asset too - assuming she survives her trial, they envelop her in the artifact's protection immediately without needing any convincing.

Sure, but so are Astarion, Shadowheart and Lae’zel, at least to start. It would not take much for Minthara to fit into a good playthrough, beyond that the game doesn’t have a scenario where she can fail to destroy the grove and kill the tieflings and survive to act 2, but it’s not like you couldn’t have written that outcome.

This.

Yhea, its purely Act 1 narrative stuff. You can skip the content of Act 1 and just beeline to Moonrise through the mountain pass, right?

I personally don't mind we be given an option to sequence break story beats in an RPG.

I'm not sure, but I know you can learn about Moonrise via the burning inn (as that's where they kidnapped Duke Ravengard) instead of via Halsin or Minthara. You can also get to the Underdark via Auntie Ethel's place.

I'm kind of getting bored with my current playthrough, might just be burnout from Act 3's terrible performance. Starting again from Act 1 to see if that'll let me re-engage with Act 3.

So class picking time, and I want to see how long I can run about in my undies. Which means Barbarian, Monk, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard, and only two of those run off of CHA. So Archfey Warlock it is!

FYI, you can run around in your underwear as anybody, just hide your armor.

[Jophiel]

You mean... literally the same suggestion Astarion makes early on?

Yes, the same thing that I've noted about Astarion several times now, correct.

Look, I never said she isn't evil; I'm saying she's redeemable

But she isn't, really. The other characters have their moment where they see the light, hallelujah. Minthara doesn't. You can prod her into being less... offensive?... somewhat?... but she never has a "Well, I guess being a power-hungry user of people ain't great" moment. She's essentially the same person going out as she was going in; a little more vulnerable with you but still totally willing to buy a six-pack of slaves for her kitchen if she sees them on sale. But she doesn't need to be redeemable either, so that's fine.

[Psyren]

But she isn't, really.

I don't really know what else to say except you're wrong, and possibly have missed several of her cutscenes/dialogue.

[Anonymouswizard]

FYI, you can run around in your underwear as anybody, just hide your armor.

I know, I switch to casual outfits whenever I'm in a 'civilised area', because it's that little bit of role-playing.

Which is also why I want to try to do a run without equipping armour. I like the idea of a character who only wears clothes for other people's comfort and doesn't use armour for protection (I might see if there's any undies mods out there that give styles even more covered than the Human set). Cheating that feels less fun, but I might cave if the lack of bonuses becomes too problematic.

[Cikomyr2]

I'm not sure, but I know you can learn about Moonrise via the burning inn (as that's where they kidnapped Duke Ravengard) instead of via Halsin or Minthara. You can also get to the Underdark via Auntie Ethel's place.

You can definitely cut through the goblin camp directly in the mountain with minimal interaction.

[Anonymouswizard]

Side note, do they give any actual details on who your Warlock Patron is? Because as I picked Archfey I'd presume it's either some Feywild noble or an equivalent to Thaniel who lives closer to Baldur's Gate.

My headcanon is that my character made the pact in an attempt to control the Urges after they manifested.

[Errorname]

Side note, do they give any actual details on who your Warlock Patron is? Because as I picked Archfey I'd presume it's either some Feywild noble or an equivalent to Thaniel who lives closer to Baldur's Gate.

I don't think so? Easier to be vague about it, you'll never directly interact with your patron.

Warlocks are sort of hard done by the medium shift, since they come packaged with strong narrative hooks which a video game can't customize in the same way as a DM can. Paladins and Clerics have similar problems

[BRC]

Side note, do they give any actual details on who your Warlock Patron is? Because as I picked Archfey I'd presume it's either some Feywild noble or an equivalent to Thaniel who lives closer to Baldur's Gate.

My headcanon is that my character made the pact in an attempt to control the Urges after they manifested.

There's a few moments when you get to invoke your patron for advantage on a role or use a unique dialogue option, but your patron never gets specifically identified beyond what you pick.

[Cikomyr2]

If you want to play the story of a Warlock having to deal with his patron, its Wyll.

If you want to play with the story of a cleric having to deal with her divinity, its Shadowheart.

If you want to play a knight who was sworn to her Queen, play Lae'zel.

These narratives are already written in story, weaved in the main plot but non-necessary for it working. You cant have perfect customization over your narrative options, especially if you expect voiced lines.