Completely Inconsequential Hot-Takes 2: People Take Too Long to Post New Threads

[Rockphed]

Episodic shows are good for ensemble stories where none of the characters is going to change much over time. Serial shows are good for a story that progresses across there series. The stories that can be told with each type are almost disjoint. The original Star Trek worked as an episodic setup. Voyage didn't. Stargate: SG1 was mostly episodic and mostly worked as such. There are lots of episodes that could be slapped into any season without damaging either the episode or the surrounding season.

[137beth]

Consider: lichdom.

That would mean she didn't "survive."

[Bohandas]

New hot take: Instead of men's sports teams and women's sports teams the teams should be divided up by weight class instead.

Why would either episodic or serialized shows be categorically better than the other? Some stories work best as single episodes, some stories work best as more than one episode.

I suppose the real hot take then is that, at least as it pertains to shows that are comedic, the stories that work best as serials (or, ESPECIALLY, those told as serialized intrusions into episodes that are otherwise self-contained) tend to be kind of pretentious. Even if the story itself isn't a pretentious one there's something vaguely self-satisfied and superior about doing the show that way. Particularly in the case of the specific kind of shows I'm thinking of which are mostly cartoons that started out episodic but then became significantly less so when they started taking themselves too seriously (and now that I think of it I don't think any of them became truly serialized but they all flirted with overarching developments that progressed over many episodes and in general drifted away from being episodic) (I'm thinking here of shows like Amphibia, Adventure Time, Gravity Falls, etc.)

[Ionathus]

I suppose the real hot take then is that, at least as it pertains to shows that are comedic, the stories that work best as serials (or, ESPECIALLY, those told as serialized intrusions into episodes that are otherwise self-contained) tend to be kind of pretentious. Even if the story itself isn't a pretentious one there's something vaguely self-satisfied and superior about doing the show that way. Particularly in the case of the specific kind of shows I'm thinking of which are mostly cartoons that started out episodic but then became significantly less so when they started taking themselves too seriously (and now that I think of it I don't think any of them became truly serialized but they all flirted with overarching developments that progressed over many episodes and in general drifted away from being episodic) (I'm thinking here of shows like Amphibia, Adventure Time, Gravity Falls, etc.)

Well, I gotta give credit for heat level on that take, at least. I do disagree pretty strongly!

I'm really curious where you're seeing "pretentious" and "taking themselves too seriously" in shows like that. As a show runs for long enough, it makes sense that the creators would start making connections between stories, bringing back recurring characters, playing with the structure and the basic assumptions of the show. They don't even have to try (though many of them do do it intentionally): a show just sort of acquires an overarching story the way a sourdough starter acquires wild yeast.

Just look at any novice D&D campaign. Many start out simple, just a bunch of friends having fun doing a funny accent and fighting goblins, and the ones that last until high levels often end with some variant of "defending the world/planet/universe/reality itself." You tell some simple stories, you find what's interesting to you and your "audience," and you keep building on that. That doesn't have to be pretentious.

[Coppercloud]

Everything Ionathus said, plus I'd like to add the example of The Order of the Stick - from rules jokes and dungeons jokes to wilderness travel and then, almost by surprise, an overarching plot has developed organically. I disagree pretty strongly that such a development is a bad thing.

[Bohandas]

Ok, so maybe putting Adventure Time on the list was unfair, but the others I mentioned just abruptly changed format in season 2

[Ionathus]

My favorite thrift store is open every day of the week except Sundays.

They send their weekly marketing emails on Sunday mornings.

Sundays are when I have the most free time and inclination to go thrifting, so it's particularly cruel of them to remind me of their existence on the one day I can't do anything about it.

[Ionathus]

I just remembered this out of nowhere while washing dishes, and it irked me so badly I had to come share it.

A full eighteen years ago (woof), Nickelodeon ran a massive SpongeBob SquarePants episode marathon. Fans supposedly voted for their favorite episodes in an online poll, and then they ran a 24-hour marathon counting down to the top-voted episode. I was fully out of my SpongeBob phase but I kept an eye on the contest out of curiosity.

"Ripped Pants," "Squidville," "Shanghaied," and "Frankendoodle" didn't make the top 100.

"Karate Island" won.

I'm still fuming.

[veti]

"Ripped Pants," "Squidville," "Shanghaied," and "Frankendoodle" didn't make the top 100.

"Karate Island" won.

I'm still fuming.

I am accustomed to being disappointed, if not actually appalled, by the results of votes of that sort.

Karate Island would have been a brand new episode 18 years ago, which makes me think the vote was dominated either by people too young to remember earlier seasons, or (more likely) by someone particularly halfwitted in Nickleodeon's marketing department.

[Bohandas]

The right time for woven fabrics is never

[Rockphed]

The right time for woven fabrics is never

I am currently wearing 1 piece made mostly of woven fabric; everything else is knit. My jacket is woven. My sheets are woven.

[veti]

The right time for woven fabrics is never

Pretty hot, but where does it come from? What's your beef with weaving, which must be one of the oldest manufacturing techniques in the world?

[Ionathus]

What's your beef with weaving, which must be one of the oldest manufacturing techniques in the world?

A løøm once bit my sister…

[Bohandas]

Pretty hot, but where does it come from? What's your beef with weaving, which must be one of the oldest manufacturing techniques in the world?

It makes for unnecessarily stiff and uncomfortable clothing.

I suppose I should have specified clothing; If you're making a sail or a bag or something then woven is ok.

[Draconi Redfir]

Rainworld is a pretty game, but being pretty doesn't excuse it from clunky controls, a lack of guidance when it's most needed, and a confusing ending that has absolutely nothing to do with what you set out to do in the beginning of the game.

[Peelee]

Hot take: I hate "I'm sorry for your loss" is the automatic standard reply for a family member's death, especially regardless of time or circumstance. When I tell people my dad died in my teens, I hear that. Yeah, it sucked hard, I still miss him, but that was decades ago and anyone I talk to in-person can very clearly deduce that immediately. Or when I tell people my brother died, almost always after telling the what an abjectly horrible person he was who only made life worse for anyone he was ever in contact with. Don't be sorry for that loss. I'm not.

[veti]

Hot take: I hate "I'm sorry for your loss" is the automatic standard reply for a family member's death,

Our culture is not good at dealing with death. We spend most of our lives denying or ignoring it. When forced to acknowledge it, nearly everyone will fall back on a handful of stock responses that are thought to be universally acceptable, rather than trying to think of something meaningful to say.

[Peelee]

Our culture is not good at dealing with death. We spend most of our lives denying or ignoring it. When forced to acknowledge it, nearly everyone will fall back on a handful of stock responses that are thought to be universally acceptable, rather than trying to think of something meaningful to say.

True.

Similar hot take (among the people who do it, much more tepid among the people who receive it) - I hate "thank you for your service".

[Draconi Redfir]

Hot take: I hate "I'm sorry for your loss" is the automatic standard reply for a family member's death.

feel that one. i intentionally didn't tell the internet about the death of two of my grandparents just because i didn't want a flood of comments like that.


Giving the post a like or a thumbs up or some other small, wordless method of understanding / conformation that you've seen the message i feel would be better.

[Ionathus]

Hot take: I hate "I'm sorry for your loss" is the automatic standard reply for a family member's death, especially regardless of time or circumstance. When I tell people my dad died in my teens, I hear that. Yeah, it sucked hard, I still miss him, but that was decades ago and anyone I talk to in-person can very clearly deduce that immediately. Or when I tell people my brother died, almost always after telling the what an abjectly horrible person he was who only made life worse for anyone he was ever in contact with. Don't be sorry for that loss. I'm not.

feel that one. i intentionally didn't tell the internet about the death of two of my grandparents just because i didn't want a flood of comments like that.

Giving the post a like or a thumbs up or some other small, wordless method of understanding / conformation that you've seen the message i feel would be better.

Spoiler: Comment collapsed because it veered into a consequential hot-take

Show

The most annoying part of it in my experience (having experienced a similar-scale loss to Peelee's at a similar time in my life) is that very few people know how to manage a conversation about grief. They drop condolences on the grieving party, and then it's up to YOU to figure out how to respond and even guide the conversation for them from that point on. It's done out of respect and uncertainty (they don't know the best way to support you in your loss), but it winds up putting yet more work on the grieving person. Some just say sorry and sit in it silently, other people try to blabber and blabber in the hopes that a scattershot approach means something they say will be cathartic to you. Some don't know how to say it so they never say anything.

The worst of this is that it can happen even before the person dies. My loved one had a lot of advance warning about his death, which means that not only did he have to make peace with it, he also had to help others make peace with his own death. A rare few individuals were able to talk to him on equal and supportive footing, being there for him and sharing the good final moments that he wanted to have with them. But many, many people had no idea what to do and usually just dumped their grief on him.

My own pet peeve hot-take here is the "everything happens for a reason" people. I don't think it's possible for us to get into that topic on here (though despite what you might think, it often wasn't even a religious claim), but here's a bit of blanket life-advice for everyone who reads this: never tell a grieving person that there was some reason they lost their loved one. It doesn't matter how certain you are that they share your worldview. Even if they agree with you in the abstract, it's incredibly likely that they don't agree when it's their loved one. Like guessing someone's pregnancy status, it is always better to just not open that can of worms.

I was very lucky in my own grieving process that someone (can't remember who) helped me realize that even the most thoughtless and vapid condolences are still usually genuine. As veti said, Western culture is terrible at processing and talking about death. I try to remind myself that everyone is doing the best they can, with what meager tools they have. That doesn't fix my annoyance when someone does a bad job of consoling me, and it might do nothing at all for others who are grieving...but it helps me to realize that they're saying "I love you and want to support you" as best as they are capable of articulating. Even if they're not speaking my "language of grief."

In my experience, "I'm sorry. How can I help?" the best starting point. (An even better one is "I'm sorry. [Concrete offer of help]. Yes or no?" -- thanks to Hank Green for putting into words a tricky dynamic my family struggled with daily while grieving)

In an unintended effort to yank us back towards the inconsequential, I have likely overcorrected. See below and decide for yourself!

I watched a YouTube video about "Legend of Zelda's worst heart pieces" and the creator's number 1 was the Don Gero's mask frog-choir in Majora's Mask. The reasons he gave convinced me that he fundamentally misunderstood the appeal of Majora's Mask.

His complaints were that, to get the heart piece, you need to first do a frustrating Goron-rolling challenge, which I can agree with -- the mechanics of that puzzle sucked. But then once you have the mask that lets you talk to frogs, he says that it's a design flaw that you have to track down 5 frogs across Termina. Two require beating mini-bosses in the 1st and then 3rd dungeon, one requires beating the 2nd dungeon again. Two are just out in the world and accessible whenever. He's annoyed that you'll likely get the mask before all frogs are unlocked (you can get the mask before the 2nd dungeon but the last frog is in the 3rd dungeon). He's annoyed that you will probably have to reset time at least once while figuring out the quest. Worst of all, he keeps invoking "backtracking" as some sort of cardinal sin.

As anyone who's played Majora's Mask before can tell you, backtracking is the entire point. The Groundhog Day time loop is inherent to many of the game's puzzles and quests, and the fact that you keep seeing the same three days replay over and over again means that your growing familiarity with the world gives you a growing feeling of power. You know exactly where all the Clock Town characters are...because you've passed them time and time and time again. The bomb shop lady always gets robbed at first midnight and you can save her. Romani Ranch is always attacked and you eventually get to stop it. You've probably seen the frog in the Clock Town Laundry Pool multiple times before you even leave clock town for the first time, and you definitely see the frog in Woodfall Temple when you beat the miniboss. It puts the question in your mind..."what are these frogs for? Are they just a worldbuilding detail?" And then halfway through the game, you learn they're a fun secret you can follow up on.

The game in general, and the Don Gero quest in particular, is a fantastic example of that piece of game design advice that says "show them the lock before you give them the key." Put the question in the player's mind, so they can feel smart and powerful when they figure out what they have to do. Reward them for returning to that locked door once they've found the key. That's a major part of a lot of game puzzles, but it's especially true in this game. Heck, your first gameplay "cycle" in this game is your three days as a Deku Scrub, where you're mostly a powerless observer who watches events unfold. They introduce you to the world and the characters and the three-day cycle before you can even do anything, and they essentially force a first time player to learn the game's unique identity before they can start collecting hearts and weapons and masks.

Backtracking is inherent to the entire game from the very beginning. Solving the simplistic "riddle" of finding all the frogs is a great way to help the player celebrate their growing knowledge and competency. And the cutscene where you conduct the frog choir is really cute and fun and intrinsically rewarding. The heart piece is just a bonus on top of everything.

[veti]

I watched a YouTube video about "Legend of Zelda's worst heart pieces" and the creator's number 1 was the Don Gero's mask frog-choir in Majora's Mask. The reasons he gave convinced me that he fundamentally misunderstood the appeal of Majora's Mask.

I haven't played MM (my loss), but to me it seems something depends on whether this frog-talking quest is central, or at least helpful, or just entirely optional.

If it's vital to finishing the game, then I can understand some frustration around it. If it just gives you a heart piece, then... suck it, "completion" isn't supposed to be easy.

Either way, I think you're quite right. It often seems to me that people who make YouTube videos commenting on popular culture are mostly motivated by "finding something to be angry about", on the basis that the more they lose it and shout at the media, the more views they get.

Only yesterday, I was watching someone else watch a video (how deep does this go? - stay tuned, not done yet) made by some YouTuber watching Scooby-Doo, the (live-action, 2002) movie. This YouTuber argued passionately that the movie wasn't funny, wasn't true to the characters and mythos of Scooby-Doo, and was particularly unfair to Scrappy.

Okay, I can see the "mythos" argument. Instead of some goon in a Halloween costume, the movie for the first time gives the team genuinely supernatural elements. (Although I'm not convinced that's so very different from some of the science-fiction BS that's been shovelled into the TV series for decades.) But for the rest, I think the reviewer is just so full of **** that he can smell it in his own nose. In particular, you can't be unfair to Scrappy-Doo. That encephalitic mutt was pure comedic poison from the moment some desperate rancid chair-warmer in ABC suggested he be added to the roster. The movie's treatment of him was blissfully cathartic.

[Peelee]

I haven't played MM (my loss), but to me it seems something depends on whether this frog-talking quest is central, or at least helpful, or just entirely optional.

If it's vital to finishing the game, then I can understand some frustration around it. If it just gives you a heart piece, then... suck it, "completion" isn't supposed to be easy.

It is not necessary at all to completing the game and you could never do any of it without any issue.

Also, you should TOTALLY play Majora's Mask. My favorite Zelda game, and that's saying a lot (LttP, OoT, and the original all hold very dear places in my heart).

[Ionathus]

I haven't played MM (my loss), but to me it seems something depends on whether this frog-talking quest is central, or at least helpful, or just entirely optional.

If it's vital to finishing the game, then I can understand some frustration around it. If it just gives you a heart piece, then... suck it, "completion" isn't supposed to be easy.

Yep, entirely optional. The very first step of it (getting the mask with the finnicky Goron-rolling challenge) is necessary to get the game's Infinity+1 Sword, because you need to have 100%'ed the game's mask collection to earn it. But gathering the frogs for the heart piece is as optional as optional gets.

Either way, I think you're quite right. It often seems to me that people who make YouTube videos commenting on popular culture are mostly motivated by "finding something to be angry about"

As opposed to us enlightened folks in this here thread

Only yesterday, I was watching someone else watch a video (how deep does this go? - stay tuned, not done yet)

My favorite version of this recursive "ouroboros" video-watching is when I caught myself watch a video titled "Everything Wrong With 'Everything Wrong With Cabin In The Woods'". No, that's not a typo -- it's a guy who critiques Cinema Sins's videos and the laziness of their Everything Wrong With video structure. He does a pretty good job of making me like the movie, especially in this case. But back to the point: Cabin in the Woods is already a satire of horror film tropes. So technically, I was watching a critique of a critique of a critique of horror movie conventions.

And now that I've passed judgment on this video, you're now technically reading a critique of a critique of a critique of a critique of horror movie conventions

the movie for the first time gives the team genuinely supernatural elements. (Although I'm not convinced that's so very different from some of the science-fiction BS that's been shovelled into the TV series for decades.)

Funny enough, explicitly supernatural elements have been in the franchise since at least 1988's Scooby-Doo! and the Reluctant Werewolf. Synopsis: Actual Freaking Dracula turns Shaggy into a wolf-man because the real Wolfman can't attend Dracula's annual Wacky Racers competition. Shaggy must compete to earn his freedom. Shaggy also is established as a racing aficionado, and he has a one-off girlfriend (...?) who is never mentioned again. Scrappy is, inevitably, there. It's actually his last appearance until the 2002 movie!

Oh, how do I know that? My mom got it for me to watch when I was sick one time. It was hard to tell what was the fever and what was the actual film.

[Peelee]

My favorite version of this recursive "ouroboros" video-watching is when I caught myself watch a video titled "Everything Wrong With 'Everything Wrong With Cabin In The Woods'". No, that's not a typo -- it's a guy who critiques Cinema Sins's videos and the laziness of their Everything Wrong With video structure. He does a pretty good job of making me like the movie, especially in this case. But back to the point: Cabin in the Woods is already a satire of horror film tropes. So technically, I was watching a critique of a critique of a critique of horror movie conventions.

And now that I've passed judgment on this video, you're now technically reading a critique of a critique of a critique of a critique of horror movie conventions

Yeah, but I'm not critically reading it.

[Draconi Redfir]

it's a guy who critiques Cinema Sins's videos and the laziness of their Everything Wrong With video structure.

so he... he knows it's all a joke right?

He knows that everything that goes into cinimasins is all a joke?


Because inconsequential hot take: i feel like people who have actual legitimate problems with CinimaSins don't realize that it's all just to be funny, and they don't actually hate the movies.

[Lord Raziere]

so he... he knows it's all a joke right?

He knows that everything that goes into cinimasins is all a joke?


Because inconsequential hot take: i feel like people who have actual legitimate problems with CinimaSins don't realize that it's all just to be funny, and they don't actually hate the movies.

Oh everyone knows Cinemasins is doing it to be funny. the problem is, pointing out plot holes by itself just isn't funny.

[Peelee]

Inconsequential hot take: "plot hole" has become a catch-all term for any minor flaw or inconsistency in a story, instead of a hole in the plot.

[Lord Raziere]

Inconsequential hot take: "plot hole" has become a catch-all term for any minor flaw or inconsistency in a story, instead of a hole in the plot.

this as well contributes to the problem.

due to how media is today, some people have become hyper-aware of the cliches of the media they consume....but not actually gaining real media literacy, instead seeing the patterns without understanding why they exist or what their purpose is to the narratives that use them. lacking an understanding of deeper themes, purpose of stories and so on, they criticize inconsistencies and flaws without analyzing stories properly to know what the story is trying to do in the first place, leading to misguided conclusions and criticisms.

[Draconi Redfir]

Oh everyone knows Cinemasins is doing it to be funny. the problem is, pointing out plot holes by itself just isn't funny.

gunna have to agree to disagree on that one then.

plus it's not just calling out plot-holes, they call out stupid decisions made by characters / directors to make the story move forwards too among other things.

[Peelee]

gunna have to agree to disagree on that one then.

plus it's not just calling out plot-holes, they call out stupid decisions made by characters / directors to make the story move forwards too among other things.

I prefer Pitch Meeting for that.