Baldur's Gate 3 III: No Plans for DLC Or A Fourth Thread

[BRC]

BG3 is very much an internet-era game, in that I feel like a lot of it's UI is obtuse and poorly built because the player is expected to be able to look up tutorial guides online.

[warty goblin]

There's a reasonable design philosophy behind not letting you see all a class's possible choices at character gen, it puts the focus on choosing what is attractive right now and starting the game rather than build crafting, because (heretical opinion incoming) build crafting is not a universally beloved activity. After a point I find it makes the game worse, and approaching a game through that lens reduces my enjoyment of the game itself and replaces it with, basically, optimizing Microsoft Excel. For me I find the enjoyable parts of leveling up are getting some fun and potentially surprising new toys, not checking something off from a list I drew up 25 hours ago. Leveling up in BG3 is fun and breezy because I click like 1 - 4 buttons per character per level, get something cool to mess around with, and can go back to playing the actual cool fantasy adventure, not Masters of The Spreadsheet.

[Errorname]

A quick Google says Microsoft technically owns it now.

I guess that means Obsidian could take a shot at it if they wanted to and they do have the actual creators of the game on payroll, but I don't know if Microsoft would sign it out to a third party.

There's a reasonable design philosophy behind not letting you see all a class's possible choices at character gen, it puts the focus on choosing what is attractive right now and starting the game rather than build crafting, because (heretical opinion incoming) build crafting is not a universally beloved activity. After a point I find it makes the game worse, and approaching a game through that lens reduces my enjoyment of the game itself and replaces it with, basically, optimizing Microsoft Excel

I think I prefer to run through the first time doing what feels natural, but if a game supports repeat playthroughs I tend to want to have some sense of what I'm building the character towards.

[Anonymouswizard]

There's a reasonable design philosophy behind not letting you see all a class's possible choices at character gen, it puts the focus on choosing what is attractive right now and starting the game rather than build crafting,

The issue with that is that in D&D5e a lot of classes get their playstyle defining features at level 2 or 3 (Smite, Invocations, Metamagic, for a couple of classes their subclass...). Honestly I'd say the middle ground is probably better, have an upcoming features tab but leave it closed by default.

I don't plan my builds in detail, but I definitely plan where I want to sub in secondary classes and when to leave characters at camp because their build won't work for another X levels.

[Psyren]

I completely agree that BG3 dropped the ball in not letting you see upcoming features ahead of time in-game. I can understand them not wanting to intimidate new players with 12 levels of progression at once but come on, make a togglable feature.

[Cikomyr2]

I completely agree that BG3 dropped the ball in not letting you see upcoming features ahead of time in-game. I can understand them not wanting to intimidate new players with 12 levels of progression at once but come on, make a togglable feature.

As someone who basically gave up on Wrath of the King after 30 minutes of decision paralysis in the character creation process, i am very happy BG3 doesnt overwhelm you with thousand details and just let me enjoy the game on a moment by moment basis.

[Anonymouswizard]

As someone who basically gave up on Wrath of the King after 30 minutes of decision paralysis in the character creation process, i am very happy BG3 doesnt overwhelm you with thousand details and just let me enjoy the game on a moment by moment basis.

I don't think anybody's saying the information should be mandatory, just that you shouldn't have to rely on external websites

[LibraryOgre]

I'd also say that "not letting you see details in advance" is an even bigger problem when you have by-level multiclassing, which inherently favors "builds"... mixing and matching different features from different classes with different feats and racial features.

In BG1/BG2/IWD1, if you pick a fighter because you want a fighter, you're a fighter. If you pick a Blade because it sounds neat at 1st level, you get what a Blade gets, and can optimize within that, but your character's abilities and advancement are largely set once you hit "start". When you have per-level multiclassing, however, what your character becomes mechanically is usually a result of planning your build... WHEN do I pick up feature X, what am I sacrificing for it, etc.

[Cikomyr2]

I'd also say that "not letting you see details in advance" is an even bigger problem when you have by-level multiclassing, which inherently favors "builds"... mixing and matching different features from different classes with different feats and racial features.

In BG1/BG2/IWD1, if you pick a fighter because you want a fighter, you're a fighter. If you pick a Blade because it sounds neat at 1st level, you get what a Blade gets, and can optimize within that, but your character's abilities and advancement are largely set once you hit "start". When you have per-level multiclassing, however, what your character becomes mechanically is usually a result of planning your build... WHEN do I pick up feature X, what am I sacrificing for it, etc.

And i am all for a lexicanum or reference guide available in game.

But please dont kick new players in the nut with overcomplicating the character creation. BG3 is already hard on newcomer if they create a character from scratch.

[Psyren]

I don't see an issue with an "Advanced" toggle (default off) that when enabled would show the full character progression in-game.

[Kesnit]

This has been bothering me since the first time I got Wyll and Karlach. I did a search, but did not find this being mentioned anywhere...

(I want to preface by saying I am a lawyer IRL, so...)

By sending Wyll after Karlach, Mizora breaks the terms of the pact because Karlach is not a valid target. She is an invalid target for two reasons.

1) By Mizora's own words, "targets shall be limited to the infernal, the demonic, the heartless, and the soulless." When writing contracts, using "and" means all the terms must be met. So a valid target must be infernal, demonic, heartless, and soulless. If she meant the target could be any of those, the proper word to use would be "or."

2) Karlach isn't heartless. It's in the script. Karlach herself says she has an infernal engine for a heart.
2a) Since we don't know the full terms of the pact, this may be addressed. However... When a term is not specifically defined in a contact, the term is given the common meaning. Looking up the word "heartless" in the dictionary gives the definitions "spiritless" and "lacking feeling: cruel." Those do not fit Karlach. Therefore, contrary to Mizora'a statement, Karlach is NOT heartless and therefore is not a valid target.

[InvisibleBison]

I think it's safe to assume that infernal contract law is not the same as real-world contract law.

[Eldan]

I would assume the contract is written in the primeval language of Law, Old Baatorian or Infernal, all of which are stated to be considerably more complex than any human language. They would have different words for inclusive and and exclusive and.

[Cikomyr2]

Yhea, the argument of the use of "and" instead of "or" is finicky at best. I doubt it would pass muster in Mechanus.

And Karlach is a heartless. Its just that they put an internal engine to substitute her missing heart. Just because someone has a peg leg doesn't mean they are not a cripple.

Also, im sure all infernal contracts have a clause that allows for arbitration by another devil rather than appealing to Mechanus.

[Psyren]

T"targets shall be limited to the infernal, the demonic, the heartless, and the soulless." When writing contracts, using "and" means all the terms must be met.

It's clear from context that Mizora is using "and" to mean that any of the categories is valid. "Or" likely could have been more accurate, but then you'd open yourself up to the argument that a target meeting more than one attribute would also be invalid.

2) Karlach isn't heartless. It's in the script. Karlach herself says she has an infernal engine for a heart.

While it functions as a heart, strictly speaking it isn't one. Hers was ripped out and replaced.

To be clear, I'm not saying Wyll wouldn't have a case, if he ended up in front of Kelemvor at some point between being alive and being a lemure - but either way he'd be dead; the only distinction you'd be making at that point is whether he'd be condemned to Baator or not. A very pertinent question if you're Wyll, to be sure, but both answers mean the same thing as far as the narrative is concerned, he'd no longer be a part of it.

[LibraryOgre]

To be clear, I'm not saying Wyll wouldn't have a case, if he ended up in front of Kelemvor at some point between being alive and being a lemure - but either way he'd be dead; the only distinction you'd be making at that point is whether he'd be condemned to Baator or not. A very pertinent question if you're Wyll, to be sure, but both answers mean the same thing as far as the narrative is concerned, he'd no longer be a part of it.

You hear about the devil's lawyers, but you never hear about celestials doing pro-bono work trying to find loopholes.

[BRC]

I also wouldn't be surprised of Mizora is being deceptive with the translation.

"Infernal" and "Demonic" probably translate pretty directly, and let Mizora throw Wyll at any rival devils or troublesome demons.

But the actual contract's word for "Heartless" might specifically refer to the organ, rather than the more poetic interpretation. So, Wyll could be ordered to kill an elemental, plant creature, or anything else without a blood pumping organ.


It's all perfectly clear if you read the contract in Infernal.

[Anonymouswizard]

I also wouldn't be surprised of Mizora is being deceptive with the translation.

"Infernal" and "Demonic" probably translate pretty directly, and let Mizora throw Wyll at any rival devils or troublesome demons.

But the actual contract's word for "Heartless" might specifically refer to the organ, rather than the more poetic interpretation. So, Wyll could be ordered to kill an elemental, plant creature, or anything else without a blood pumping organ.


It's all perfectly clear if you read the contract in Infernal.

I also wouldn't be shocked if Karlach technically counted as an Infernal (or Abyssal) due to her heritage. It's actually what I expected.

[Cikomyr2]

You hear about the devil's lawyers, but you never hear about celestials doing pro-bono work trying to find loopholes.

I think you found the best spin on Celestial Warlocks

[Kardwill]

As someone who basically gave up on Wrath of the King after 30 minutes of decision paralysis in the character creation process, i am very happy BG3 doesnt overwhelm you with thousand details and just let me enjoy the game on a moment by moment basis.

Oh yeah. I dropped Kingmaker twice because of the character creation and levelling nightmare of Pathfinder. I was there to actually play "let's be an adventurer that builds a kingdom", not "spreadsheet challenge- extreme edition".

Ended up playing a pregen with auto-leveling on. Only to drop it a third time in the late chapters because of a string of no-fun "choose precisely the right spell list or die" fights (I'm looking at you, wild hunt...)

[Cikomyr2]

Oh yeah. I dropped Kingmaker twice because of the character creation and levelling nightmare of Pathfinder. I was there to actually play "let's be an adventurer that builds a kingdom", not "spreadsheet challenge- extreme edition".

Ended up playing a pregen with auto-leveling on. Only to drop it a third time in the late chapters because of a string of no-fun "choose precisely the right spell list or die" fights (I'm looking at you, wild hunt...)

Man, its such a shame. The game sounds really fun. Mechanical opaqueness is one boner killer.

[Anonymouswizard]

Oh yeah. I dropped Kingmaker twice because of the character creation and levelling nightmare of Pathfinder. I was there to actually play "let's be an adventurer that builds a kingdom", not "spreadsheet challenge- extreme edition".

Ended up playing a pregen with auto-leveling on. Only to drop it a third time in the late chapters because of a string of no-fun "choose precisely the right spell list or die" fights (I'm looking at you, wild hunt...)

IMO Kingmaker and WotR really need to be played on below default difficulty. Although my reasons for abandoning Kingmaker are pretty petty (the tight time limits on exploration due to the 'be at your throne every month's bit) so I get it.

WotR can be even worse thanks to Mythic Paths. You did remember to grab Last Stand on every single melee fighter, right?

[warty goblin]

The best way to play Wrath of the Righteous is the roguelike DLC, where all the characters are custom, and the leveling pace is substantially higher. It basically lets you do all the cool parts of character creation, but with more options because you're designing the entire party, and much lower stakes because most runs are pretty short so you aren't stuck with these particular dudes for more than a couple hours. Option paralysis is substantially decreased if you aren't going to be haunted by one bad feat choice for 80 hours.

Also it means almost no dialog, which can be considered a bonus feature.

[Cikomyr2]

The best way to play Wrath of the Righteous is the roguelike DLC, where all the characters are custom, and the leveling pace is substantially higher. It basically lets you do all the cool parts of character creation, but with more options because you're designing the entire party, and much lower stakes because most runs are pretty short so you aren't stuck with these particular dudes for more than a couple hours. Option paralysis is substantially decreased if you aren't going to be haunted by one bad feat choice for 80 hours.

Also it means almost no dialog, which can be considered a bonus feature.

But i dont want to play a pointless storyless adventure game dnd simulation. i have action games for that. I play roleplaying game because the story engages me and actually drag me out of the "mindless automaton stupor" action games drag me into.

You know this mindless feeling that Starfield fans defend, saying they "dont want to have to think too much". Well its the opposite. Bg3 is fantastic to me BECAUSE it engages me so damn much and i CANNOT play it in automatic mode and forces me to pay attention and use my intellect.

[warty goblin]

But i dont want to play a pointless storyless adventure game dnd simulation. i have action games for that. I play roleplaying game because the story engages me and actually drag me out of the "mindless automaton stupor" action games drag me into.

You know this mindless feeling that Starfield fans defend, saying they "dont want to have to think too much". Well its the opposite. Bg3 is fantastic to me BECAUSE it engages me so damn much and i CANNOT play it in automatic mode and forces me to pay attention and use my intellect.

I've never been able to get very far into WoTR's story, but it certainly didn't strike me as particularly engaging. The first thing that happens is a demon invasion (truly the GOAT of fantasy game cliches), the second is that I get revealed as a special chosen one (tied with demon invasion). The third thing is that I keep meeting NPCs who slobber all over me on account of my special specialness, just in case my ego wasn't being pandered to hard enough yet.

Makes me want to run right back to Cyberpunk. Which reminds me, I've run right back to Cyberpunk, and wow is it good. I've gotta finish up Knight's Tale before I can properly mainline it, but boy do I want to. The writing is just so good, and the performances are fantastic.

[Anonymouswizard]

I've never been able to get very far into WoTR's story, but it certainly didn't strike me as particularly engaging. The first thing that happens is a demon invasion (truly the GOAT of fantasy game cliches), the second is that I get revealed as a special chosen one (tied with demon invasion). The third thing is that I keep meeting NPCs who slobber all over me on account of my special specialness, just in case my ego wasn't being pandered to hard enough yet.

Most of the fantasy cliché stuff gets played with quite a bit. Most notably

Spoiler

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that entire chosen one deal? It's only very loosely true. It turns out that everybody was jumping to conclusions and Iomede didn't bother to set anybody straight even when asked. You're more of an unlucky sap who wound up being experimented on until they actually achieved mythic potential, then got dumped in Kanebres because you becoming a crusader is useful for the experimenter's plans.

Honestly I prefer it's setup to BG3's 'these totally amazing people who are somehow all level 1 were all on the same ship. Really the only issue I have is how low level Seelah is, everybody else joins with reasonable power for their backstory but Seelah really should be a couple of levels higher.

[Frozenstep]

Honestly I prefer it's setup to BG3's 'these totally amazing people who are somehow all level 1 were all on the same ship.

You probably know this, but the characters were not level 1, some of them speak to their past feats like Wyll saying he was once capable of casting stinking cloud. But admittedly, the game doesn't really go too deep into the how and why the tadpoles reset everyone's level.

[Psyren]

Considering that the tadpoles' entire function is to turn you into something with ZERO class levels*, resetting you to level 1 along the way to that seems perfectly in line with their capabilities.

*Special cases like Omeluum and {Redacted} aside

[Eldan]

Cyberpunk also has a reasonable setup for your awesomeness. (To a degree, it's still a bit much). You're possessed by one of the all-time greats and his skills are slowly leaching into you. Also, possibly former Arasaka special agent.

[LibraryOgre]

WotR can be even worse thanks to Mythic Paths. You did remember to grab Last Stand on every single melee fighter, right?

Who needs Last Stand when you have Quicksave and Quickload?

But what pissed me off in WotR was the vastly inflated ACs. "Hi, your martial characters are useless because we've given all the big enemies a +20 or more to AC."