Let's Make a Melee and Ranged Fighter

[pabelfly]

While reading Player's Handbook II for bookclub, I came across this passage, which I thought might make for a fun topic of discussion (p150):

...the best fighters are those whose abilities are broad enough to give them an edge over any kind of foe. Thus, when playing a fighter, you should resist the temptation to specialize in one feat path too exclusively. If possible, keep your ranged combat prowess as strong as your melee ability so that you can take on fliers and ground forces with equal proficiency.

Now, let's put aside any potential disagreements we have with this idea, and actually try to build a character that adheres to this build concept. We want a mundane martial that can do both ranged attacks and melee, and we want it to have fairly even capabilities at both at all levels. While the paragraph specifically refers to Fighter, let's allow ourselves the freedom of using whatever mundane martial we want.

What do people think our dual ranged/melee specialist might look like?

[Zarvistic]

Just to keep it a clean build and cause I like the idea of taking this class to 20: Barbarian 20 with the hunter variant and a bunch of acfs, javelins, pounce, tormtor school and melee feats as needed.

[Biggus]

The aptitude special ability (ToB) is very handy here, especially for fighters, as it allows any feat which specifically affects one weapon (Weapon Focus etc) to also affect that weapon.

One of the key issues is that we don't want to split our ability increases between Str and Dex. There are several ways round this, but they all have downsides. We could use a 2-handed weapon to maximise melee damage and take Brutal Throw and Power Throw (both CAdv), but that means our ranged attacks are only short-range. If we specialise in Dex however we're limited to finesse weapons which do less damage; we could perhaps become a crit-fisher with paired kukris or something and get some of the no-save special abilities in the MIC which activate on a crit, like Weakening.

If we want strong long-range attacks and high melee damage we'll need both Str and Dex. IIRC there's no explicit limit on the Str bonus of composite longbows in 3.5, but I don't think a medium-sized one with a Str bonus higher than 5 appears anywhere. You can definitely get large bows which go up to +10 Str bonus though, and a pair of Strongarm Bracers (MIC) can allow you to wield one without penalty, and the Sizing enhancement (also MIC) can make it shrink enough to be easily portable.

Not sure which of these is the best solution.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use the Zhentarim Soldier substitution levels (reflavored if needed), since there's no drawback. That gets Skill Focus: Intimidate at 3rd, the social use of intimidate lasts longer at 5th, and you can demoralize a target as a swift action at 9th.

Also include the dead levels features, again since there's no drawback.

Dexterity Build:

Wild Elf gets +2 Dex, -2 Int. Try not to have a negative Int modifier, Str can be the minimum to qualify for Power Attack, Cha needs to be high enough to take Imperious Command at 6th or 9th level. 1st level feats are Improved Weapon Familiarity and Weapon Finesse, plan to use an Elven Thinblade with a shield or an Elven Courtblade if fighting two-handed. Keep max ranks in Intimidate, take the Never Outnumbered skill trick.

We'll want Ranged Weapon Mastery (piercing) at 8th level, so we'll need Weapon Focus/Specialization: Longbow before then. There are three Fighter feats and two general feats prior to that, so we have plenty of room. We'll also get Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and probably Item Familiar during those levels, and Imperious Command at 9th.

So we have a 9th level Fighter who's more than good with a (composite) longbow, a bit mediocre at melee but able to lock down a target every round with Imperious Command and able to make everyone in 10 ft. cower for a round with Never Outnumbered while still full attacking. Or, get Fearsome (DotU version) armor and keep three targets locked down every round using your swift, move, and stadard actions to demoralize each of them.

[Maat Mons]

I’m fond of Bloodstorm Blade for this sort of thing. Failing that, Pathfinder has Sanguine Angel as a means to use Str on attack rolls with bows. There exist a few ways to get Dex to damage with melee attacks, but then you’d also want to use one of the methods of getting Dex to damage with ranged attacks. Getting Power Attack with a bow would require the Peerless Archer PrC in 3.5 or the Deadly Aim feat in Pathfinder. With thrown weapons, you can take the Power Throw feat in 3.5 or just use Bloodstorm Blade.

[Anthrowhale]

The one-handed fighter you asked for here has defensive throw at ECL8 implying that it can function well in melee situations using thrown weapons. If you add Far Shot (there are plenty of free feats) on top of Ranged Weapon Mastery, the range increment is 60'---not quite bow range, but decent.

[RaiKirah]

To avoid the Str/Dex issue could go with a Bardblade build with Charming the Arrow and Snowflake Wardance for Charisma focus (Warrior Skald if you want to avoid spellcasting). Also could do a soul knife into Soulbow build with Intuitive attack to key off Wisdom

[Maat Mons]

Okay, I’ve put together a Furious Huntress switch hitter. It’s not great, but it does manage basic competence in both ranged and melee combat.

LN Human Slayer 6 / Sanguine Angel 2

Feats
H: Power Attack
L1: Deadly Aim
S2: Precise Shot <can ignore prerequisites>
L3: Iron Will
S4: Weapon Focus (Longsword)
L5: Improved Shield Bash
S6: Point Blank Mastery <can ignore prerequisites>
SA1: Two-Weapon Fighting <can ignore prerequisites>
L7: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting <can ignore prerequisites>



Edit: Oh right, heavy armor proficiency. Use the Human favored class bonus to pick up Combat Trick.



Edit: Every day I'm shuffling … the feat order of this build.

Spoiler: Indira the Indecisive

Show

LN Human Slayer 6 / Sanguine Angel 2


1st Level (Slayer 1)
Studied Target: gain +1 attack and +1 damage against up to 1 target, designate or change target as a move action
Track: bonus feat
Feat from Level: Power Attack; nerfed relative to 3.5 version
Human Bonus Feat: Deadly Aim; as Power Attack, but for ranged weapons
Favored Class Bonus: +1/6 of an extra Slayer Talent (1/6)

2nd Level (Slayer 2)
Slayer Talent (Combat Style); gain Precise Shot as bonus feat
Favored Class Bonus: +1/6 of an extra Slayer Talent (2/6)

3rd Level (Slayer 3)
Sneak Attack +1d6
Feat from Level: Heavy Armor Proficiency
Favored Class Bonus: +1/6 of an extra Slayer Talent (3/6)

4th Level (Slayer 4)
Slayer Talent (Rogue Talent [Combat Trick]); gain Improved Shield Bash as bonus feat
Favored Class Bonus: +1/6 of an extra Slayer Talent (4/6)

5th Level (Slayer 5)
Studied Target: gain +2 attack and +2 damage against up to 2 targets, designate or change target as a move action
Feat from Level: Iron Will
Favored Class Bonus: +1/6 of an extra Slayer Talent (5/6)

6th Level (Slayer 6)
Slayer Talent (Combat Style): gain Point Blank Mastery as bonus feat
Sneak Attack +2d6
Favored Class Bonus: +1/6 of an extra Slayer Talent (6/6)
Slayer Talent (Rogue Talent [Weapon Training]); gain Weapon Focus (longsword) as bonus feat

7th Level (Slayer 6 / Sanguine Angel 1)
Hardened Heart: Intimidate checks against you are at +2 DC
Maiden’s Shield: gain Two-Weapon Fighting as bonus feat, ignore Dex prerequisites on future TWF feats, can only use when fighting with longsword and shield
Feat from Level: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

8th Level (Slayer 6 / Sanguine Angel 2)
Hardened Heart: Intimidate checks against you are at +4 DC
Tyrant’s Discipline (Furious Huntress): use Str instead of Dex on attacks with bow

[RaiKirah]

The one-handed fighter you asked for here has defensive throw at ECL8 implying that it can function well in melee situations using thrown weapons. If you add Far Shot (there are plenty of free feats) on top of Ranged Weapon Mastery, the range increment is 60'---not quite bow range, but decent.

Add in 4 levels of Cragtop Archer and Horizon Shot means you can throw a projectile weapon (bow of some varietal) twice as far as a full round action (with some permissive RAW reading), putting you at 120' intermittently. Probably not worth, but it's an option

[Saintheart]

I’m fond of Bloodstorm Blade for this sort of thing. Failing that, Pathfinder has Sanguine Angel as a means to use Str on attack rolls with bows. There exist a few ways to get Dex to damage with melee attacks, but then you’d also want to use one of the methods of getting Dex to damage with ranged attacks.

Targetteer (Dragon 310) is a variant fighter that allows this in place of a bonus feat. Seems the shortest route there.

Getting Power Attack with a bow would require the Peerless Archer PrC in 3.5 or the Deadly Aim feat in Pathfinder.

Hank's Energy Bow can do it in an item as well.

[RNightstalker]

At-will item of Heroics will make anyone proficient with anything.

[Endarire]

It's outside the spirit of the challenge, but a Wild Shapin' Druid can melee sometimes and cast sometimes.

But STR-based throwing builds can work.

[pabelfly]

Had a crack at this as well, this is what I came up with.

Barbarian 2/Fighter 18
Frostblood Orc

32 Point Buy: 16/15/14/14/6/8
Level 1: 20/15/14/12/6/8
Level 20: 24/16/14/12/6/8

B – Endurance
1 – Nymph’s Kiss
Barbarian 1 – Pounce ACF
Barbarian 2 – Rapid Shot
3 – Steadfast Determination
Fighter 1 – Thug Fighter ACF
Fighter 2 – Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow)
6 – Headlong Rush
Fighter 4 – Weapon Specialization (Composite Longbow)
Fighter 6 – Resolute ACF
9 – Point-Blank Shot
Fighter 8 – Ranged Weapon Mastery (Composite Longbow)
12 – ¬Manyshot
Fighter 10 – Power Attack
Fighter 12 – Greater Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow)
15 – Woodland Archer
Fighter 14 – Greater Weapon Specialization (Composite Longbow)
18 – Improved Rapidshot
Fighter 16 – Improved Toughness
Fighter 18 –Weapon Supremacy (Composite Longbow)

ACFs:
Barbarian – Hunter, Spiritual Totem
Fighter – Thug ACF, Resolute ACF

• Frostblood Orc is chosen for their high STR bonus, as well as Endurance bonus feat and access to Headlong Rush.
• Our melee weapon is a Greatsword (2d6 two-handed weapon, although we can use other two-handed weapons). Our ranged weapon is a Composite Bow, to take advantage of our STR bonus.
• Our melee damage is dealt with by Pounce, Headlong Rush and Power Attack.
• Our ranged damage is dealt with by our other feats. More feats are dedicated to ranged than melee due to the difficulty of sorting out ranged attacks.
• Nymph’s Kiss, our decent INT score and Thug Fighter mean we get 6 skill points per level for our Fighter.
• Steadfast Determination and Resolute ACF deal with the normally weak Will Save of a Fighter. We should also have very good Fort saves, leaving Dexterity as our only moderately-good save.
• We don’t need to use Aptitude Weapons (they weren’t in print when the paragraph in the original post was written, so this wasn’t built with that in mind) but this would greatly boost our melee capability.
• Rapidshot lets us get off an extra attack when doing a full round of attacks at range, if charging isn’t feasible. Manyshot lets us move and do a decent amount of attacks while getting in position to charge next round, if required.

Weird build, but I don’t mind both the overall build and the challenge itself. I've also enjoyed the contributions other posters have made, so thanks for those.

[liquidformat]

Hum I will see if I can track it down but a few years ago we were having a little competition to create different super heroes and Captain America was one of them that would work well for a melee/ranged combo build.

A dagger throwing rogue build would also be interesting though range wouldn't be great.

[Anthrowhale]

...

A difficult point here is CR20 monsters where you might want to deal 205 damage against AC36.

The ranged attack might be +37=20(base)+8(dex)+4(feats)+5(enhance) for an attack routine of +37/+37/+32/+27/+22 implying an expected 4.2=1.05+1.05+0.95+0.7+0.45 hits suggesting the hits need to deal 49 damage. If you have (4.5(base)+12 (strength)+5(enhance))x2(splitting)=43 is close---you can probably get there with some extra elemental damage.

Melee is generally easier since strength drives attack rolls, Headlong Rush subs for splitting, and your base & strength damage increases.

Overall, it seems to check out.

[pabelfly]

A difficult point here is CR20 monsters where you might want to deal 205 damage against AC36.

The ranged attack might be +37=20(base)+8(dex)+4(feats)+5(enhance) for an attack routine of +37/+37/+32/+27/+22 implying an expected 4.2=1.05+1.05+0.95+0.7+0.45 hits suggesting the hits need to deal 49 damage. If you have (4.5(base)+12 (strength)+5(enhance))x2(splitting)=43 is close---you can probably get there with some extra elemental damage.

Melee is generally easier since strength drives attack rolls, Headlong Rush subs for splitting, and your base & strength damage increases.

Overall, it seems to check out.

Thanks for doing the maths.

[Anthrowhale]

Thanks for doing the maths.

Reviewing, a few more items that help max out the archer:

1. Greater Bracers of Archery//+2 competence to hit & +1 competence to damage
2. Boots of speed//+1 to hit/+1 attack
3. Ring of Blinking + Seeking enhancement//attack as invisible, +2 to hit, negate dex/dodge

Using these, we have:
+42=20(base)+8(dex)+4(feats)+5(enhance)+2(competen ce)+1(haste)+2(invisible) for an attack routine of +42/+42/+42/+37/+32/+27 implying an expected 5.85=1.05+1.05+1.05+1.05+0.95+0.7 hits suggesting the hits need to deal 35 damage. Thus (4.5(base)+12 (strength)+5(enhance)+1(competence))x2(splitting)= 45 is excessive---you can use more range increments effectively or eat some DR the hard way.

[Saintheart]

Reviewing, a few more items that help max out the archer:

1. Greater Bracers of Archery//+2 competence to hit & +1 competence to damage
2. Boots of speed//+1 to hit/+1 attack
3. Ring of Blinking + Seeking enhancement//attack as invisible, +2 to hit, negate dex/dodge

Using these, we have:
+42=20(base)+8(dex)+4(feats)+5(enhance)+2(competen ce)+1(haste)+2(invisible) for an attack routine of +42/+42/+42/+37/+32/+27 implying an expected 5.85=1.05+1.05+1.05+1.05+0.95+0.7 hits suggesting the hits need to deal 35 damage. Thus (4.5(base)+12 (strength)+5(enhance)+1(competence))x2(splitting)= 45 is excessive---you can use more range increments effectively or eat some DR the hard way.

Addressing DR for archers, there's Razorfeather Ammunition (MM V), next to the entry for the Steelwing. Arrows made from a Steelwing's feathers are inherently keen, masterwork, and - most relevantly for our purposes - adamantine. They're also explicitly nonmagical, meaning something like Bless Weapon's automatic crit confirmation will work with them just fine.

[Anthrowhale]

Addressing DR for archers, there's Razorfeather Ammunition (MM V), next to the entry for the Steelwing. Arrows made from a Steelwing's feathers are inherently keen, masterwork, and - most relevantly for our purposes - adamantine. They're also explicitly nonmagical, meaning something like Bless Weapon's automatic crit confirmation will work with them just fine.

Seems handy. In general, archers are the best mundanes for dealing with DR anyways since they can carry a collection of arrows with different heads and enchantments.

Another difficult point is typically at ECL 5 where funds and attacks are rather limited. There, the goal is 28hp vs. AC 17.

The base attack is 5+4(dex)-2(rapid shot)+1(enhancement)+1(WF)=+9 implying for a +9/+9 routine implying ~=.75+.75=1.5 hit/round dealing (4.5(base)+5(Str)+1(enhance)) x1.5= 15.75 damage, achieving 56% of target.

Maybe Targeteer? Using that it might look like:

5+4(dex)-5(Arrow Swarm)+1(enhancement)+1(WF)=+6 implying for a +6/+6/+6 routine implying ~= .6+.6+.6=1.8 hit/round dealing (4.5(base)+5(Str)+1(enhance)) x1.8= 18.9 damage, achieving 68% of target. Overall, not particularly satisfying.

[Darg]

Addressing DR for archers, there's Razorfeather Ammunition (MM V), next to the entry for the Steelwing. Arrows made from a Steelwing's feathers are inherently keen, masterwork, and - most relevantly for our purposes - adamantine. They're also explicitly nonmagical, meaning something like Bless Weapon's automatic crit confirmation will work with them just fine.

Even if you can't get razorfeathers, you can get adamantine arrows (automatically masterwork) for only 61 gp per stack of 20, vs the 1001 gp cost of a stack of 20 razorfeather arrows. Add in an oil of keen edge and you've got an equivalent temporary option for less.