narutooo!!!!!

[TheEmerged]

If only if this was true. According to the latest interviews we have only reached the half way point of Naruto.

Notice that I said the story was reaching its natural end and accussed the writer of hesitating to just end it :P I don't doubt for a minute the writer would stretch it out for another two-four years...

[AslanCross]

I can't stand Naruto (and most other mainstream shounen anime, to be fair). Why call them ninjas if they aren't stealthy? I expressed some interest in it at first but the sheer amount of episodes threw me off. Why can't one just end the story?

The amount of episodes also leads to interesting animation compromises.

[Paragon Badger]

That is your opinion. Others will say that Naruto has good storytelling - it is not intended for western viewers, and thus we cannot say with perfect certainty that Avatar is inherently better, only that it was designed for the tastes of Americans.

Naruto's not the first eastern piece of literature I've read.

I mean, I feel like Romance of the Three Kingdoms advances the plot more swimmingly than Naruto, and that book has 120 chapters! <_< Even the longest battles of the book, Guan Du and Chi Bi, are fluid and no-nonsense.

Can you say the same about Naruto? I mean, did we really need two fights with Zaibuza?

Flashbacks are okay, fine. But...do we really need a flashback of something that has happened in the series? Especcially something that happened an episode or two ago!

And...flashbacks aren't the only way to tell an audience what happened before the start of the story, you know. >_> Anime tends to grossly underestimate their audience's ability to process off-camera events. Do we honestly need to travel back in time everytime we establish some part of the Itachi/Sasuke plotline?

[WarriorTribble]

I can't stand Naruto (and most other mainstream shounen anime, to be fair). Why call them ninjas if they aren't stealthy? I expressed some interest in it at first but the sheer amount of episodes threw me off. Why can't one just end the story?

Considering that everything about ninjas is fake anyways, why not reinvent the group with an over the top shounen flair?

They can't end the show, or tell a compact story, since it's under a perpetual arc. Naruto: The Search for More Money.

That is your opinion. Others will say that Naruto has good storytelling - it is not intended for western viewers, and thus we cannot say with perfect certainty that Avatar is inherently better, only that it was designed for the tastes of Americans.

Minus the existential angst, I'd say Naruto is an animation with universal appeal, least for young males.

[EvilElitest]

There is a fine line between rip-off and influence. If Avatar has so many similarities to Naruto's characters, and came into existence six years after Naruto began ...

Just as well: how is Naruto a rehash of "already boring plots"? Care to elaborate?

A except everything that avatar "steals" is generic to begin with.
B. Even if it did steal, Avatar is simple better written
C. Alright, generic naurto plots

1. Main characters
First we have a hyper, optimistic, stupid, misunderstood (angsty), ethustastic, immature, insulting, happy go lucky main character, who is totally unfit for any sort of responsibilty and yet most of the world revolves around him, he is able to get away with praticlly everything, his total optimism allows him to gives him the power to always choose the morally right choice (or what the author thinks that is) and inpart wisdom upon small children about the way to live a happy life. Though his young immature nature allows him to appel to the vewiers by resorting to farting jokes and naked women illusions. He stupity never really comes back to haunt him and we never see any suprising insights or cool new ideas from this character. He has a childish crush upon "the female" character and goes out of his way to compete with the rival (all hail lord of angsty). Even when mentally hindered, he is able to be a super matial artist due to a tramatic past and being the main character. he is also able to be compitent when the plot demands it due to deus ex machina, oh i'm sorry, i mean the power of friendship. But he is the first ninja to wear orange i think

The wanna be loner. Don't even get my started

And the girl. She is a girl, has a crush on mr. emo, Naurto has a crush on her, and she doesn't do anything, ever. Yeah, thats about it

Considering that everything about ninjas is fake anyways, why not reinvent the group with an over the top shounen flair?

I'm no ninja expert, but i doesn't ninjistu or however you spell it mean stealthy martial arts?

They can't end the show, or tell a compact story, since it's under a perpetual arc. Naruto: The Search for More Money.

ah as the exceitive producers try to squeeze even more money by the never ending show

wait, did i get that wrong?



from
EE

[WarriorTribble]

I'm no ninja expert, but i doesn't ninjistu or however you spell it mean stealthy martial arts?

ah as the exceitive producers try to squeeze even more money by the never ending show

wait, did i get that wrong?

According to wiki it stands for art of forbearance. It essentially was doing anything to achieve ones goals including acting dishonorably.

No, that's correct, it's a joke I stole from Spaceballs.

"Lone Starr: I wonder, will we ever see each other again?
Yogurt: Who knows? God willing, we'll all meet again in Spaceballs 2: The Search for More Money."

[AslanCross]

Considering that everything about ninjas is fake anyways, why not reinvent the group with an over the top shounen flair?

They can't end the show, or tell a compact story, since it's under a perpetual arc. Naruto: The Search for More Money.Minus the existential angst, I'd say Naruto is an animation with universal appeal, least for young males.

Fake or not, the "Nin" in "Ninja" still implies stealth. They may not have been able to walk on water, fly or read minds, but they were still trained at least in spycraft (which typically involved simply being the nondescript peasant----not dressing in all black, jumping around in trees). And Naruto's "flair" flies in the face of that. Besides, it's possible to have flair and be entertaining without wearing orange, blowing stuff up and appearing as a nude, blonde girl.

I can't argue with your second statement. Obviously they don't end it because they make money off it. (Kind of why they still make Gundam 30 years after it started, though they do have the decency to have 52-episode series instead. Of course, quality is sadly not universal in Gundam either.) Still, the length is one of the things that made me throw it off in the first place.

On a more amusing note, I once made one of my Sasuke fangirl students cry by casually remarking that Sasuke looked like a girl. o_o

Though yes. It does seem to be universally appealing to preteen boys, though why any of them would fantasize they were Naruto is beyond me.

[WarriorTribble]

Fake or not, the "Nin" in "Ninja" still implies stealth. They may not have been able to walk on water, fly or read minds, but they were still trained at least in spycraft (which typically involved simply being the nondescript peasant----not dressing in all black, jumping around in trees). And Naruto's "flair" flies in the face of that. Besides, it's possible to have flair and be entertaining without wearing orange, blowing stuff up and appearing as a nude, blonde girl.

Ninjutsu means art of forbearance, and it shares the same nin kanji with ninja, I think it's safe to say they're both using the first two definitions found in the link you sent me (endure and bear). Any implication that ninjas are stealthy is rather recent, from what I can tell historically, it was more accurate to say they were cowardly/dishonorable.

If it makes you feel any better the mangaka stops doing the nude stuff rather early on. Though he did do one guy on guy jutsu recently, equal opportunity and what not I suppose. The rest, well there's a market, but it's not for you...

[Tengu]

This is not true. It is a glitch in your computer, likely as a result of your graphics setting - try changing the "video acceleration" to half or full, or to off if it is on.
[/spoiler]

Good: This works! I need to turn video acceleration off and I can take screenshots.
Bad: I forgot where have I exactly found the frame I wanted to screenshot...
Terrible: I have nothing to contribute to the topic, apart from saying that Naruto Abridged is very funny (though not as much as YGO Abridged).

[kamikasei]

I just keep telling myself one more month and a new Berserk comes out.

...Hang on, what? I require details!

[Obrysii]

Ninjutsu means art of forbearance, and it shares the same nin kanji with ninja, I think it's safe to say they're both using the first two definitions found in the link you sent me (endure and bear).

Also note that in Naruto, the term "ninjutsu" is that setting's flavor text name for spell-casting [generally Arcane]. And so, as Orochimaru described in a recent chapter, "A ninja is, as the name suggests, a warrior who uses ninjutsu."

Futhermore, a simple definition of a Ninja, as given by Wikipedia, is "a ninja (忍者, ninja?) was someone specially trained in a variety of unorthodox arts of war."

So there you are. The Naruto ninja: a warrior who uses arcane spellcasting or other unorthodox arts of war.

Which actually sums them up very well.

[Lizardfolk Lich]

Last I heard, ninjas started as people who climbed walls in the night and opened the gates for the army to get through. They only got to be so great because of rumors and such.

[Various]

I'll be unpopular and admit I like the manga. I get the feeling the writer wants to focus more on character or plot but he has to keep the action going due to the demands of Shonen Jump's editors. And the series in general suffers for it, but I guess the 8-14 year old demographic doesn't like stories with any development in it, despite how much I DID when I was that age.

I seem to recall some interviews from Toriyama of Dragonball complaining about his editors constantly pushing for the over-the-top-ZOMG! fights at the expense of everything else. If this is the case then I think the series would be a lot better if the writer had more control. The story always hints at a greater depth that never gets adequately explored because its always time for the next fight. The fact that the releases of the manga have lower page counts than it did in the past is evidence to me of this; I would definitely be hard-pressed to come up with awesome fight scenes constantly (not to say that all of them are).

[Athaniar]

Read the first chapters in Shonen Jump, have to say I like Shaman King better. I never watch animes, except for Yu-Gi-Oh! The Abridged Series.

[Shademan]

i think naruto is a victim to editing. it would be VERY diffrent if the editors would cut Ken some slack.

as for ninjas: i find it mildy annoying that the "ninjas" in naruto act more as commando-fighters than ninjas, and that Ninjutsu is another word for "spell" but i ignore it since i find the manga funny.

ive seen the anime as well, and i must say, i have NEVER seen anyone do a BASIC ninjutsu stance :D

[Person_Man]

I login to Youtube once every two or three months and read through narutopedia once in a while to catch up on the Manga plotline. It's a pretty complex storyline with interesting characters, which I can appreciate. Though the "de-compressed" pacing of many anime drive me nuts. Seriously, does anyone on the planet enjoy 10 minutes of staring, 10 minutes of flashbacks, two minutes of actual fight scenes and moving the plot forward, and 8 minutes of commercials?

RE: Avatar ripping off Naruto

Yes, Avatar clearly rips off Naruto. And Naruto rips off something else. And that's to be expected.

Writers are generally forced to put things in a context that their audience can easily understand. If you tread too far away from classic elements of a hero's journey, most people watching your show generally won't understand what you're trying to communicate to them, especially if they're children or teenagers who don't read outside of their schools' curriculum (ie, most Americans. I can't speak to the level of Japanese literacy).

If your vision of how magic/ninjitsu/technology works takes more then a few sentences to explain, most people won't understand it, and will be confused when the characters use it. So if someone who is watching your show for the first time in the middle of the season can't just turn on the tv, watch the 30 second intro, and say "OK, people on this world can do X, just like I saw in Y," then no one is going to watch your show. (Or rather, few people will watch your show, and it will be canceled).

[EvilElitest]

That isn't quite true, but writers think its true. Death note and to a lesser extent Full metal alchemist are rather complicated. It is worth noting however, that i think TV show would be better if they didn't underestimate the intelligence the viewers
from
EE

[North]

I tried to get into Naruto. I picked up the first four trades. Didnt do anything for me. Naruto just really really annoyed me. A lot.

[EvilElitest]

I tried to get into Naruto. I picked up the first four trades. Didnt do anything for me. Naruto just really really annoyed me. A lot.

Can't argue there
from
EE

[Fuzzy_Juan]

the only thing that really irks me about the show is how slow the pacing is...Whenever they are following the manga, they streach each episode out to about the length of a single strip...which means that 30 min needs to be filled...how do they do this? Well, they only have 23 minutes of show...they have 1 minute of preview for next episode, 2 minutes of special info, 3 min for opening sequence and closing sequence, and 2-3 minutes for 'last time, on naruto!' as they recap the last episode...so you get maybe 12-15 minutes of show.

[Rogue 7]

the only thing that really irks me about the show is how slow the pacing is...Whenever they are following the manga, they streach each episode out to about the length of a single strip...which means that 30 min needs to be filled...how do they do this? Well, they only have 23 minutes of show...they have 1 minute of preview for next episode, 2 minutes of special info, 3 min for opening sequence and closing sequence, and 2-3 minutes for 'last time, on naruto!' as they recap the last episode...so you get maybe 12-15 minutes of show.

...Which is why you watch it online and skip over all of those bits, giving you the plot much faster and making it seem like it actually moves. That's what happened when I started watching Shippuden off of youtube. It went a lot faster when you can skip all the title screens, the previews, and whatnot, and the pacing didn't feel all that egregious.

[North]

The only anime ive ever really gotten into has been Ranma 1/2 and Dominion Tank Police I think...

Oh and I liked Slayers too I think, its been a long time.

[Xuincherguixe]

... Dang big thread. I'm not going to bother with spoilers, because so much already has been.

I love those comics comparing Avatar and Naruto. I don't think the two are THAT similar, but it's still amusing. If there are similarities, it's more likely because the two are about martial arts. Both are full of martial arts mythology. Sometimes, it's the same mythology (that Rasengan technique seems very Tai Chi like)


The two shows are different. For one. The "evil" in Avatar doesn't come from out of nowhere. It comes from confusion, misplaced priorities, misunderstanding, and unbalance. This is more evident later in the series. Think about it. Zuko is after the Avatar because he wants things to go back to the way they used to be. And he mixes that up with honor. When he gets what he wants, he realizes that things really weren't what he thought they were.

The Fire nation starts the war because the leader wants to "share" his prosperity with the rest of the world. Not thinking about what others opinion on it is. In a way, it's just a way of justifying to himself conquest.

The Dai Li hide everything, to "maintain order". I really wish I could put more words here, because those episodes were wonderful. In many ways, it was very Orwellian.

In many ways, Avatar has a lot in common with older cartoons. From the 90s and such. Some of it is blindingly obvious, but it's very sophisticated for a kids cartoon. I think they were trying to capture the same kind of audience that's into Anime. It's one of the few cartoons thats managed to apply Anime elements successfully.



A lot of people claim that Naruto is ripping Dragon Ball Z off. They're almost right. In Japan, they don't come up with new ideas in the same way that other places do. What they do is attempt to improve upon ideas. I admit that to a degree I liked Dragon Ball Z, but I doubt anyone would argue that it was a really, really stupid show. (I found a lot of the especially stupid stuff awesome. Turning into a ball of candy and STILL kicking ass? That's wonderful in my eyes)

Naruto with the Blonde Hair and Orange suit? That's not some random thing. The author was a fan. It's a tribute.

It's a martial arts story. Of course the guy has to train to become more powerful. The fact that the story suffers from the sorting algorithm of evil (I don't feel like linking the TV Tropes thing right now) isn't strictly necessary, but it's understandable. The characters grow from facing challenges.

Like most Anime, it suffers from bad translation. There's much more artistic value in my mind in the original. I will say though that Sasuke seems a lot more bad ass in the English Version.

Also, I might be mistaken (my memory sometimes isn't that great so I may be mixing things up), but I'm pretty sure in the Canadian English dub, Rock Lee WAS explicitly stated to be Drinking Alchohol. I wonder if those of you who get Canadian channels are getting the slightly less censored version.

In a way, I kind of like Sasuke because he's such a flawed character. He's actually a bigger idiot than Naruto. And a cry baby. And a wimp. He's come up with bad answers to questions. And he's not nearly as cool as everyone thinks he is. But, I still think he's kind of cool and his motivations make sense in a twisted way. He has some strong anti hero elements. Unfortunately, it seems like his popularity is taking him in a different direction then he should be taken. Sasuke exists purely as Naruto's heel. Sasuke was supposed to be some immature little brat who was pretending to be tougher than he really was.

Naruto on the other hand, he is an immature little brat. But, he doesn't seem to be going to the same kind of lengths to pretend he isn't. There's a few scenes mind you, mostly comic relief. But I almost wonder if he was trying to look tough, or he was trying to fail. It may be giving him a bit too much credit, but many of the characters have more depth than they appear. Either way, Naruto grows as a character, something Sasuke fails too. While Sasuke cowers, Naruto attacks, and he's scared too. But he's willing to accept, and attempt to overcome his own flaws. I get the feeling that there's not a lot of people that are looking at Naruto for what he really is. He doesn't overcome all challenges because he's the demon fox who's over 9000. He's over 9000 because of his will. The Fox is part of that.

One thing I noticed, the struggle between Naruto and Sasuke. Sasuke without a thought is willing to sacrifice himself if it gives him more power, and has been unwilling to recognize Naruto. Naruto on the other hand believes that because he isn't strong enough, Sasuke isn't willing to recognize him. So for more power, he'll sacrifice himself. (This is why part of why I said the Fox is part of his will) They'll burn themselves up.

And it comes up at other points in the story too.

Neither Sasuke or Sakura deserve him as a friend. But I think that's the point.

In a lot of ways, Naruto is of a similar archetype as Superman. Which it pains me a little because I like Naruto and hate Superman. The big difference is, with Naruto there was a cost. And he has to exert himself. Again, often for people who really don't deserve it.


Sakura, not a lot to say about. I kind of like the character, but she doesn't have the same depth as Naruto or Sasuke. I'm glad she stopped being useless. I absolutely hate the Archetype of useless women. And it's really disgusting when combined with the warrior woman archetype. I mean seriously. That one is supposed to be about being strong and accomplishment, despite being from a gender seen as useless. (And sometimes, about not really being women. Which again, pisses me off)


Orochimaru? Awesome beyond words. He's been compared to Azula, but Azula just can't compare. Azula has a bad perspective. Orochimaru was a monster born as a human. (This was stated explicitly). Both are magnificent bastards, but Orochimaru doesn't have an excuse. He doesn't care for excuses, he doesn't need excuses. I heard one person describe him as a Chickenhawk. He isn't explicitly a pedophile, but you are supposed to get that vibe from him. I hate the stereotypes of looking like a woman means you are one, being gay means you're a woman, and homosexuality is evil. But with Orochimaru? All of this comes together so well I can't fault it. He's not evil because he's caught between genders. He is evil and strange. And, of course, he's a figure a lot like Satan. Tempting people into evil, and disrupting order.

I suppose all three of the Sannin are there for the main three characters. But, unlike Tsunade and Jiraya, Orochimaru stands out on his own. He could be there even without Sasuke.

Not that I've got a problem with disrupting order :P

I could get into a few other characters, but this post is getting huge. Also, I don't think there's as much in most of them.

Naruto drags on far too long, but there's still a lot of stuff there. As time goes on it seems like it's getting far between, but it's still there.


But, I'm not caught up on the Manga. It may very well spiral downhill.


Death Note certainly suffered from being dragged out, and having some questionable writing decisions. But I still think it was wonderful. Frankly it's worthy of it's own thread, which it already has several of.

[Athaniar]

After actually watching 2½ episodes of the anime, I can say it's not that bad. Luckily, it's in japanese, dubs aren't just my thing.

[Tengu]

stuff

This post wins the thread. A very profound and accurate analysis which doesn't really have any points one could disagree with.

[TheEmerged]

RE: Orochimaru = Pedophile. Explicitly stated? No. But check his scenes in series out, he sure spends an awful lot of time telling little boys he'll fulfill their dreams if they come with him :P

Also, part of this comes from a certain inevitable comparison.

[Paragon Badger]

RE: Orochimaru = Pedophile. Explicitly stated? No. But check his scenes in series out, he sure spends an awful lot of time telling little boys he'll fulfill their dreams if they come with him :P

Also, part of this comes from a certain inevitable comparison.

Don't forget all those atomic hickeys he leaves on people's necks.

[Steven the Lich]

Naruto by my standards is an excellent anime. I mean, its complex it has many rules, and it contains many twists and turns. You can basically almost never predict what happens (Excellent example, who would've foreseen that 100 episodes would pass while we waited for a lead on Sasuke, and then they go on with an enitrely new and better show... Masters of suspense).
Shipudden is awesome, and puts the old series to shame with music. I must have Akatsuki's theme from Shipuuden.

As for the tribute to DBZ idea, its actually plausible now that I think about it... however, Naruto is entirely different from Dragonball, since Orochimaru and Itachi are unlike any villains in DBZ or DBGT (more cool but less powerful), and its just one world and many kingdoms and ninja types. Naruto has a similar attire to Goku in color, and he seeks to grow stronger... thats just it.
Goku has no dreams for himself, Naruto seeks to become Hokage... Goku is calm at a normal time (Unless people are being hurt by the villains), Naruto goes off at the drop of a feather... Goku can actually talk to his wife, Naruto can't talk to the girl he has a crush on without being punched, and in the meantime he is blind to another anoyminous crush on him (I need not to say who, for those who saw the show)
Plus, Goku never had a demon with extrordinary energy lying inside of him in a seal that was growing ever weaker (If he does have one, gods help us... or the people he fights and people that surround him in everyday life). Not just that, people in Naruto can't just gather large amount of energy and go flying in the sky.
I can only name one other guy who may be similar (remotely) to a character in the DBZ series... Sasuke = Vegeta.
Naruto is a more balanced series, with villains appearing multiple times and sticking longer than one would expect (Orochimaru survived 125 or so more episodes than I though he would), while DBZ and DBGT just oss off random villains said to be the powerfullest, when theres always one stronger.
Freeza-Cell-Bu (Bu not ugly, Bu beautiful *turns and blows up city*)-Evil Bu-Kid Bu- Other villains in the GT series- 7 evil dragons - and the one and only grand master dragon, Omega Shenron "I do not grant wishes for candy!"- Omega Shenron vs. Gotenks in DBZ Budokai 3.
Who knows what other villain they'll crop up for the next one...

[nothingclever]

Death Note, Naruto and Bleach were all terrible. Death Note especially because the other two are clearly meant for really easily amused little kids meanwhile Death Note actually tries to pretend to be "deep" or "intelligent."

That manga was complete and total garbage. One day after seeing a few episodes of the anime a few months ago and dropping it because of how crappy it was I figured I might as well find out how it ended since so many people said it was good. I ended up reading the entire thing trying to find redeeming qualities of which there were none.

The manga has absolutely no value as a mystery, suspense, action, horror, comedy, sci-fi, or philosophical show. It's supposed to be a mystery yet there is no mystery. Everything is common sense or bull****. The best example is the way L pulls random percentages out of nowhere and applies them to his assumptions. The majority of his deductions don't matter because he says that Light could or could not be Kira because he always second guesses everything and almost never takes any real action.

If Light acts like Kira L says he might be acting like him on purpose to show he's not Kira because Kira would never give himself away.

If Light acts like a regular person he might still be Kira because he's pretending to be a normal person.

Light doesn't have to do anything to fool L because L never follows a course of action until the end. The one time L uses some real common sense he imprisons Light but lets him go too soon since he could've tracked the people Light gave the book to without his help. If he had kept Light locked up longer and never let him touch the book once they got it that would have been the end of the manga right there but L never follows through.

Another easy solution is to simply bust in to Light's house or shake him down randomly or keep real 24/7 surveillance on him. If they actually looked through Light's stuff when they installed cameras in his house the trap he set would've burned his book and he would have never found another copy ending the manga again. If they had someone run up to him and take his stuff or had a thorough search of his belongings they would've stopped him as well. Numerous times he was being watched and had the book but no one ever thought of shaking him down so Light eventually gets away with Ryuk's help to use the book safely while no one's looking.

A thorough search of Light or confiscation of his stuff would also screw him over because if they confiscated his watch he would never be able to get the memories of his Death Note back when he needed them.

L believes Light is Kira from the very start but never does anything drastic enough to catch him which means there's no mystery at all. The only mystery is when the hell will someone use a common sense method to stop him.

In the end all Near had to do was get one single spy to keep a close watch on L's crazy friend and they eventually found and switched his book with a copy they made. The only reason Near's guys were not all killed at the end was the fact that Light's friend always followed an exact routine each day and made an alteration on the day before Light's plan came into effect by checking his deposit box. That was extremely stupid. You would think Near wouldn't leave anything to chance and simply have someone open the box using his vast influence/intelligence and look for anything suspicious but instead he relies one hundred percent on a coincidence that he never knew would occur. If they did not look in the box they could've once again shook him down or searched him as well. No matter what they did they always risked being killed by the death gods since they could never see where they were so it didn't matter whether they were sneaky or not.

Another gaping problem is they don't realize that according to one of their theories a death god could simply kill everyone for Light and they wouldn't be able to do anything so if he hasn't done it yet it probably means he can't or that they should simply have at least one person attempt to do something to Light to see if his death god would step in. That was extremely stupid how they were never willing to risk a life trying to catch Kira yet so many people were dying everyday.

The kids that later replace L when he dies are also extremely stupid. The only reason Mellow wasn't killed/captured in the raid on one of his hideouts was because he luckily found a clueless death god to defend him from the US special forces Light had the president send.

Both characters only had any success because of dumb luck and not deductive reasoning.

Another problem with the manga was that every character was shallow and boring. L, Mellow and Near were all nerds with no lives of their own living through mysteries and the two kids were extremely arrogant and annoying.

Light was also garbage because you find out at the end he is a totally spineless loser when he dies throwing a temper tantrum because his plan to rule the world all on his own doesn't work. I found this part hilarious because I felt like Light in his situation as the book was coming to an end because he should have won the entire time and killed all the annoying characters. Instead they had a terrible ending based on luck where the snobbiest character of all, Near, survived. Light actually thought a lot more than any other character in the entire manga but lost because of a coincidence. I rooted for him the entire time knowing he would lose anyway.

Light's idea of ruling a world through fear was complete garbage because we all know that kind of world is no better than what we already have since no one would do things willingly undermining the entire idea of creating an enlightened society. You can't have a morally advanced society when it isn't allowed to think for itself and develop its own morals since the penalty for anything your ruler doesn't like is death.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

...Which is why you watch it online and skip over all of those bits, giving you the plot much faster and making it seem like it actually moves. That's what happened when I started watching Shippuden off of youtube. It went a lot faster when you can skip all the title screens, the previews, and whatnot, and the pacing didn't feel all that egregious.

Oh...I have the episodes from Japan when they air downloaded...what annoys me is that after all the extra stuff they do, they only have 12-15 minutes of actual show for each episode they air now...and in that 12-15 minutes, they have very slow pacing so that they can average 1.5 manga per episode so that they won't catch the manga in the forseeable future.

It is the way they use the time that bugs me. when you only get 12-15 min of real show...it sucks that of that short time...you know that about 20% of the time is taken up in unneccesarily long still shots and long pauses...great...they are staring at each other while dramatic music plays and the wind blows...then they talk slowly and monologue alot.

Avatar is great because the pacing is nearly always fast...few if any wasted shots of needless reactions and lots of action. they have the same 23 minute shows...but of those 23 min, there is a 30 sec intro and no more than 30-60s spent on 'Previously on Avatar'...the rest is pure show with a preview shown over the credits if shown at all...like most american shows, the credits are fast and short...10-20s tops...

So...Avatar...20min of pure show with good pacing and episodic with a complete story being told per episode with a grander tale woven throughout...Naruto...Epic story, but because of that they take forever to do a damn thing and you only get 12 min of actual advancement of the plot...advancing through the slow spots and needless exposition can cut that down to like...8 min of show...lame.

In some ways, I liked the filler episodes...they may have been written poorly and drawn like crap...but they had decent pacing as each 'filler' was either self contained or was designed to fit within 2-4 episodes. No 3 month fight scenes that span 30 min of 'real time'...kinda refreshing.