Results 181 to 204 of 204
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2008-04-18, 11:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
I hope not, because if it happens than there is a huge plothole in the story. If Jillian, a barbarian, would have able to move twice just by abandoning the alliance, the whole donut of doom incident doesn't make sense. Ansom could have easily had Jillian, gwiffons and the archons protecting siege if they could move twice before Stanley's turn. With air cover on Ansom's side the hit and run tactic would not have worked.
The only way for this to make sense is for units not to heal and not to recover move before the turn of the side where they got injured/spent their move.
That is a major exploit; if Parson had done that with the dwagons he would have been able to hit team Ansom twice, with ALL the dwagons.Last edited by teratorn; 2008-04-18 at 11:16 PM.
Avatar: ruthless Parson (Erfworld).
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2008-04-19, 01:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2005
Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
Presuming you are referring to this klog, there does not seem to be any difference in stats between nobles and royals. That klog also implies that there can be multiple royal heirs, at which point a new side is spawned.
Read my posts again. I said popped not promoted.
All the designation of 'capital' means in our world is that is the current seat of government. It can be changed. Other than that, it means nothing. Why does Erfworld have to be different? Not that I'm saying it isn't, but we shouldn't assume something is different without a good reason.
Again, I said popped, not promoted.
Those are, as far as we can tell, just labels. Just like in the real world. Again, why must Erfworld be different?
Considering the "great expense" and anti-non-royal warfare, I'd say there is nothing simple about promoting a commoner to heir.
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2008-04-19, 06:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
I'm not sure thats true - I think it basically goes like this:
before alliance break:
A's turn - B's turn ||Nighttime|| A's B's ||Nighttime|| A's B's [+ B's Alliance Switch] ||Nighttime|| B's A's ||Nighttime|| B's A's ||Nighttime||
So given healing happens at night, everyone gets to heal.
But yeah, even without the healing thing it seems a pretty useful tactic, but pretty limited in that you need to have an ally with an earlier turn than you, & can only be used on stacks with warlords (to stop autoattacking). Also, if you ever want to switch back you lose a turn (relative to the other team), but i guess this wouldn't be a problem if you managed to kill everyone :p
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2008-04-19, 06:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
can only be used on stacks with warlords (to stop autoattacking).Do we know how many warlords we have in the coalition? Plus, if it's still Jetstone's turn, they can reposition themselves in such a way as to prevent autoattacking. All these little variables that no-one knows for certain are going to play out very quickly.
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2008-04-19, 07:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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2008-04-19, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2005
Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
Right, so here's how I understand it:
Let a and b be two sides in a conflict. Assume that b is an alliance, comprised of b1 and b2.
Hx = x is healed/food pops/etc.
Tx = x is active on their turn
Sx = x is splitting their forces into 2 sides
Ax(y) = x is forming an alliance with y
The typical pattern would be:
- Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Night;
- Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Night;
- etc.
What we are seeing is this:
- Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Sb, Night;
- Hb1, Tb1, Ha, Ta, Hb2, Tb2, Night;
- Hb1, Tb1, Ha, Ta, Hb2, Tb2, Night;
- etc.
If b1 and b2 were to recombine it might look like:
- Hb1, Tb1, Ab1(b2), Ha, Ta, Hb2, Tb2, Night;
- Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Sb, Night;
- Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Sb, Night;
- etc.
It might also look like:
- Hb1, Tb1, Ab1(b2), Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Night;
(note: b1 is part of b and thus is acting again) - Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Sb, Night;
- Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Sb, Night;
- etc.
I hope for the first option, or else this is a ridiculously major exploit:
- Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Sb, Night;
- Hb1, Tb1, Ab1(b2), Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Sb, Night;
- Hb1, Tb1, Ab1(b2), Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Sb, Night;
- etc.
Notice that b1 is acting (including healing) twice per day.
I wonder if paying upkeep is part of Hx. If so, this would double the upkeep costs of b1. That could be why it does not see widespread use.
Oh, and Stanley does have an ally: the Gobwins.
Hey, wouldn't they have needed an Overlord/King/Queen when they rebelled against Saline IV? Who was it?Last edited by fendrin; 2008-04-19 at 08:45 AM.
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2008-04-19, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- Algarve (The West)
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Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
In fact as explained by Fendrin, a coallition with a few sides could rearrange its forces on each turn in order to always have this kind of exploit. If it were not for some sort of penalty involved would double their effective force because of the healing/move factor.
I think Ansom is just doing it to keep the air cover during this turn (he's likely to attack the walls with a smaller force and somw dwagons might be veiled), not spending any move, and still be able to catch Stanley before his next turn.
Unlikely. After the rebellion their status should be that of captured units, like Wanda. Besides, I don't see Stanley giving them the dwagons.Last edited by teratorn; 2008-04-19 at 10:54 AM.
Avatar: ruthless Parson (Erfworld).
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2008-04-19, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Northern Virginia
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Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
We know that gobwins are one of those sides with no capital, cities, or royals, that form "long semi-permanent alliances". That suggests to me that such sides can't function independently (at least not in the long run) and are always allied with somebody (though they can stab an existing ally and switch to another).
If so, that implies that one of the "normal" sides was ultimately behind the gobwin revolt....
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2008-04-20, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
In response to this:
1) You are quite correct, that is the assumption I am making. It may be correct, it may not be, and yes that is an argument breaking assumptionif I am wrong .
2) The plot I was refering to was not who wins (so to speak) but rather the idea that to maintain an interesting plot you must maintain tension between the chracters and this is the quickest way to push things along while still maintaining that tension, most espically in Parson's life. If Parson gets to become his own side (in some mystical fashion) the tension virtually evaporates for him, thus the idea that Stanely has to stick around. Now you are correct there are an infinite ways for him to do so, but this is the move I believe is most in character for him. Whether or not that is the way it goes down... well that is why it is a guess
I will in general agree with your assement of the characters, though even as Parson has yet to show amazing genius he is still a far more balanced and better commander than Ansom is, and thus I do not believe he will have too much trouble in a one vs one situation with him. That being said I do actually enjoy the fact that Parson, as good as he is claimed to be, is still not far above and beyond the native's ability, as that creates plot tension and an interesting story.
Last edited by Felkethar; 2008-04-20 at 09:26 AM.
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2008-04-20, 12:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2005
Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
Personally, I think Charlie is going to wind up in control of Parson somehow. Either the same way Stanley got control of Wanda or as part of a deal where Parson trades himself for the services of some Archons during the Battle for Gobwin Knob.
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2008-04-20, 10:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
In fact as explained by Fendrin, a coallition with a few sides could rearrange its forces on each turn in order to always have this kind of exploit. If it were not for some sort of penalty involved would double their effective force because of the healing/move factor.
It would also mean Parson could not have used it with out first sacrificing a turn. Although it may allow Stanley to use it against the alliance air force if they don't hit him on this attempt
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2008-04-20, 11:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
There's been some debate on whether Stanley is headed for Faq or a Dwagon Nest nearby. What if it's both?
Perhaps Stanley stumbled on Faq near a dwagon nest, which could explain the suddenness of Faq's fall -- I would think that even the most lightly defended Capitol would take more than one turn to fall, unless the King was whacked early on.
So then the scenario could unfold that Jillian and company could arrive at Faq first, but then Stanley arrives with significantly larger forces.
Also, the scenario could include Stanley heading for a Dwagon Nest, then after Charlie, and possibly an en passant encounter with Jillian in the mountains instead of over a city, which might have terrain more to Stanley's advantage?
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2008-04-20, 11:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
Last edited by teratorn; 2008-04-20 at 11:19 PM.
Avatar: ruthless Parson (Erfworld).
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2008-04-21, 06:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
If it were only that, Ansom could have still used this trick to get Jillian and the archons into the column after the dwagon raid. He behaved like the siege would be lost if he didn't attack the dwagons. Things can't be that simple.
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2008-04-21, 06:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
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2008-04-21, 06:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Not where you're looking
Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
Also, it's probable that you can only ally with a side when one of their representitives are there. That'd make sence, and limit the potential of the sploit
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2008-04-21, 06:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
He cant start a new side just like that- he already IS a side. Ceding GK doesnt change that, it just costs him the city. Ansom is creating a new side by splitting an existing side into 2. Stanley can only create a new side by ceding GK to someone not already involved in the war. So he would *have* to create or promote someone to heir, cede GK to them, and then break the (assumed default) alliance to create the needed new side. Wanda is currently broken and thus probably cant be promoted at the moment, and Stanley doesnt think enough about the other casters (Sizemore and the Thinkamancer/Foolamancer/Lookamancer) to even remember their names, let alone consider promoting them (quite apart from 2 of those 4 being unavailable anyway), so it would probably have to be Parson by default. Plus, I would bet that being the highest ranking unit in GK it would be cheaper to promote Parson than a lower-ranked unit, and far cheaper than spawning an heir from scratch (which requires creating a new unit, not just increasing an existing units powers). That could let Stanley escape the Jetstone gambit, and save Parson too. We could indeed have our cake and eat it too. :)
\'Twas brillig, and the slithey toves....
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2008-04-21, 07:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-04-21, 07:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
It is indeed potentially extremely dangerous, but it is a deliberate rules choice in Erfworld, not an exploit, and is certainly not without precedent in wargaming. Third Reich by Avalon Hill includes the mechanic for turn order changing based on which side has the economic advantage at the time, allowing precisely this double-turn possibility, not just once, but potentially several times in the game, and it can be deliberately engineered by careful spending if one side or the other feels so inclined. It is a guaranteed occurance at least once in the game (When the US enters the war). The classic board-game Shogun has it as an integral part of its strategy too, also tied to economics, after a fashion. I'm sure there are other examples too.
Just remember, its a trick that can only work once, and then the other side has to get a double-turn against you at some point before you can pull it a second time. It is a powerful trick, but its not something you can necessarily arrange whenever you like, and it comes with the possibility of an equally large downside, when the other side gets a double turn eventually.
So, not an exploint, just a dangerous rule to test the cunning and caution of the players.\'Twas brillig, and the slithey toves....
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2008-04-21, 08:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
Oh, thats just because, as it currently stands, Stanley doesnt have any allied factions capable of being their own side with him is all, and obviously the Jetstone factions wont ally with him, ergo he'd need a group not currently part of the war. Its not a rules thing, just a personal circumstances issue.
We dont know everything about the gobwins and how their arrangement with Stanley works, but as best we know they dont seem to have any warlords present in GK, so I'm assuming they cant be used for this purpose. But because we dont know the arrangement I could be wrong. We shall see.
I'm assuming that all alliance leaders will automatically learn the turn order at the beginning of each day, so Stanley should learn about Jillian/Vinnie before they get to do their first turn. Whether or not he can try any similar shinanigans before his turn or not remains uncertain, even if he does have the personell etc to try it. I assume that he will know basically what happened, rules-wise, as soon as it happens, which will remind him of the option if he can find a way to execute it, so we may see it from him. He's flaky, but he's not entirely stupid.\'Twas brillig, and the slithey toves....
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2008-04-21, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
Why? Ansom simply had to break Jillian and the Archons from the alliance. With that he could protect siege with no need to attack the dwagon fort.
Even if he wanted to attack the dwagons with Vinny and Tarfu, it would have been easy to escape:
- move Jill close to the donut, then break the alliance with her and Charlie
- next morning all the gwiffons and archons are able to move again
- pick Ansom, Vinny and Tarfu back into the main column
- carry as many elves as the move from the gwiffons allows.
The gumps would be left there, but they would be probably safe, since Parson probably would not risk dwagons for them.
If things were this simple then I would be very disappointed with Rob and Jamie.Last edited by teratorn; 2008-04-21 at 04:49 PM.
Avatar: ruthless Parson (Erfworld).
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2008-04-21, 05:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
Why? Ansom simply had to break Jillian and the Archons from the alliance. With that he could protect siege with no need to attack the dwagon fort.
Even if he wanted to attack the dwagons with Vinny and Tarfu, it would have been easy to escape:
move Jill close to the donut, then break the alliance with her and Charlie
next morning all the gwiffons and archons are able to move again
pick Ansom, Vinny and Tarfu back into the main column
carry as many elves as the move from the gwiffons allows.
The gumps would be left there, but they would be probably safe, since Parson probably would not risk dwagons for them.
If things were this simple then I would be very disappointed with Rob and Jamie.
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2008-04-21, 08:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
I guess it depends on when Jillian naturally gets her turn - if it would be after stanley got to move anyway then it wouldn't be much point (ie if it went
A B || A B || A B(split) || A B1 B2 || A B1 B2 || - there wouldn't be much point. its only working with vinnys side because vinny gets his turn before stanley does, and i dont think theres any reason to believe that jill would have got her move before stanley.)
at least thats how I understand it
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2008-04-22, 01:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93
You are ignoring Ansom's character. That way he would have just saved his own life - not his real priority. And during Stanley turn, there would have been a full fledged dragon strike on war engines.
On the other side, with the two-moves spoil, he could had killed all wounded dragons (during his turn, as he did), and all the dragon in the Nest, during Vinnie's. Total dragon annihilation, that means the aerial monopoly during the attack. And incidentally, the end of the story.
But he didn't. And I think that he didn't because he would had to join under Vinnie, to take the advantage of the new move. And Ansom is no second man to anyone.
Laurentio