Doctor Who (again) [SPOILERS]

[comicshorse]

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That... was quite an ending.

Did anyone else get an "oh god Alien(s)" vibe from it?

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Actually I was thinking 'The Fly'

[Dogmantra]

Latest episode:

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That was a very, very creepy ending.
That Ganger-Monster with the face and that hair. That was one of the most terrifying things about it for me. I can handle the horribly distorted quadrupedal thing with slimy skin and the face and the snarls and being all horribly inhuman. But that hair. Do not want.
Made it all the worse.
When it's standing on its hind legs it looks eerily like the Other Mother.

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I thought she looked so incredibly like The Spitter I was expecting The Doctor to tell a story about the time he and his buddy Keith saved the earth from an alien invasion

[Thufir]

Regarding the conclusion of The Almost People:

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What the hell, Doctor?

We just had a whole two episodes about how the gangers are people and should be treated as such, and then the Doctor disintegrates Fake Amy?

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Regarding the Amy ganger disintegration thing, it actually makes some sense. My interpretation was that Amy is actually in the position of the humans in the harnesses; her ganger never realised she was a ganger, and was being controlled by the real amy all along. The Doctor had to kill the ganger to force amy back into her real body, which whilst traumatic gives her the best chance of coping with the birth.

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This. All that stuff was why, as he said, he was as humane as possible, but Ganger Amy wasn't an independent being like the ones they'd been dealing with, she was as the gangers were supposed to be - a simulacrum controlled by the original person.

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I kind of suspected the Doctor-shoe switch, but not enough that I still didn't grin when it was revealed. And the delayed phone call to Adam (That was the child's name right?) was awesome, because of everyting else that was going on I'd forgotten about it, so it became a really good moment.

*snip*

And so the Doctor knows about his death now, righto. Cool. And is that the end of the ganger-Doctor, or is there still a chance of him/it reforming? Currently I'm saying no, but you never know...

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Yeah, I was anticipating there having been a shoe-swap as well.
I loved that phone call. Initially when the Doctor said he was trying to make a phone call I assumed he'd be calling maybe UNIT for help, people who might be more likely to take his side rather than just "Gangers must die." But the reality was much better.

And yes, he does. I missed that point. I forgot about my thoughts of the shoe-switch possibility during that conversation and thought it was just the writer teasing slightly at the "Ganger Doctor was the one who died" theory.
As I recall, the Doctor specifically said something about a molecular imprint meaning the Ganger Doctor could survive this. So I'd say it's definitely possible, but of course that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to happen.

OK, further thoughts on the episode, and the preview to the next one:

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In general, loved the episode. That said, I'm a bit disappointed that we ended up with one copy of each person conveniently dying by the end of the episode. I feel it would have been interesting to leave at least one pair, two identical people with only one life.

Also, I'm sure there were some inconsistencies as to the location of the sonic screwdriver. Doctor gives it to other Doctor, then in a later scene the first Doctor has it again, but he never got it back.

Ganger Jen's descent into genocidal madness and degeneracy could perhaps have been dealt with a little more, but I'm not really complaining.

My favourite bit of the episode is any bit of the Doctors talking to each other/themselves.

The beach Adam was standing on before it cut up to where the Doctor and Jimmy had just arrived looked remarkably reminiscent of Bad Wolf Bay to me.

Love the ending. Ganger Amy, real one in a maternity ward is a much better explanation for the 'quantum pregnancy' than anything I recall seeing suggested.
Though, didn't someone theorise something remarkably similar to this? I think someone theorised Amy was in a maternity ward and dreaming the series, while the Eyepatch Woman was looking after her. So well done, whoever that was, you were remarkably close to the truth.
And of course, having the real Amy elsewhere really sets things up brilliantly for the next episode. While the description in the Radio Times ("Want to find the most dangerous place in the universe? Simple. Just harm a hair on Amy's head and then wait.") really caught my attention, under normal circumstances at least part of the episode would have had to have been devoted to Amy being taken in the first place, leaving little time for what the episode is really about.

And, preview of the next episode. Spoilered again in case people haven't watched it (Prequel and trailer).

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While the blue guy is obviously not an authority on the subject, he does appear to be under the impression that the child is the Doctor's. Which raises questions (At least, if we're assuming this is Amy's child we're talking about).
The robed figures aren't Silents, nor are they Cybermen (Human hands). Which begs the question, what or who are they?
Neat to see the indications of the Doctor's reputation.

And then the trailer. People are trying to kill the Doctor. Eyepatch Woman says the child will be a weapon, wonder if that means anything more than the possession of a time head?
Oh, and the Doctor 'has never risen higher', and this is when he finds out who River Song is.

Yep, I'm excited. And it definitely looks, based on the trailer, like it's living up to the title.

Anyone in America know a place to watch the new episode before it releases here next week? Preferably legal..

You expect there to be a legal means of watching an episode which hasn't been broadcast yet? (Remember America are getting the episodes the days Britain are this year...)
Short of time travel, I don't think there is a way. Oh, I suppose you could be involved in the production of the series, then you might get to see it in advance.

So! 'The Shakespeare Code' (Season 3, episode 2).

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Yeah. This is a Shakespearean prologue sure enough. I foresee injokes!

Ooh, that point never occurred to me before. I might have to rewatch that episode.

Hehe. He failed his test. Is it me, or is Ten a much worse navigator than Nine?

Nine wasn't great either. 12 hours, 12 months, bit of a mistake.
Anyway, the Doctor having difficulty navigating the TARDIS has always been a thing, because apart from anything else, as we now know thanks to Neil Gaiman, she has her own ideas on where to take him.

And the appealing to the commonest denominator. Which is exactly what Shakespeare's plays did.

Yeah, I remember them making a point of that in the Confidential - everyone thinks of Shakespeare as some great scholarly man when he really wasn't. As I recall the direction for the guy playing Shakespeare was to basically act like a rockstar.

Harry Potter 7 - hello anachronism. I say that because I know for a fact 7 wasn't out when this was written. Did it make people cry?

Well, it made the Doctor, but is the Doctor people? Does the Doctor even look like people?
But yes, I'm pretty sure people did cry while reading it.

Oh for the love of someone! Rose again! (~33.00). Shut. Up. Already. She wasn't a wonderful companion. She sucked!

Remember I said I feel Rose got worse after she left the show? This is why.

I love the climax. But 'expelliarmus' kills the Carrionites? Uummmm. Sure, why not. Well, it was foreshadowed earlier, so I can't fault it. Wonder if Rowling was paid for the references to her stuff here. Also, I find it really weird that a playing centring on the works of Shakespeare feature Harry Potter in the climax. A bit . . . much isn't it? I mean, she's great in that she got children reading again; but she's not something special. However, given the enemy being witches, again, I can't completely fault the appearance of Rowling in this episode.

Yeah, I felt a bit off about that, since it kind of seems to be trying to put Rowling on a par with Shakespeare, which she most definitely is not. But I waive that point. I do not press it. I look over it.

David Tennant is a well respected Shakespearian actor. He quit Who so he could do a 9 month stint as Hamlet opposite Patrick Stewart.

Are you making a point with this? It seems a bit of a non-sequitur.
Also, as I recall, Curly has seen that production of Hamlet, since it got televised. (Though I still haven't watched it. Must get to that...)

Edit: Geez I took a ridiculously long time to write that post, no wonder I got ninja'd.

And,

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When it's standing on its hind legs it looks eerily like the Other Mother.

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Ooh, you're right. Same shape head.

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Ganger!Amy must have happened during the time skip between season 5 and 6.

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Nah, time skip between episodes one and two of series 6 would work fine, as someone pointed out.
I mean, it could have been earlier, but there's no specific reason to think so.

[Leecros]

(Remember America are getting the episodes the days Britain are this year...)

Not anymore, at least not around here. We didn't have a new episode this week.

[SuperPanda]

Well, lets see. First off that was the mother of all cliffhangers.

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Very first thought I had, and then slapped myself for, was Eight saying that he was half human, on his mother's side.

More actual commentary on the two parter though.

I loved Rory's set up but was disappointed with his resolution. In part one he is set up to be the sympathetic and sort of weak character who stands up to do what no one else in the scenario is both willing and capable of doing. he get's betrayed by the only actually mean person present and then upstaged by the Doctor thus making his whole contribution to the plot that he got used by the sympathetic seeming bad guy. To go back to McGann's film again, his role in this two parter was remarkably like the Master's unwitting side kick Lee.

Now the Doctor's upstaging Rory with the phone call was awesome and very very well played. All of the doctor's bits in the this episode were wonderful and very clever. The part where he's resisting Rory and saying "ring ring" though struck me as odd especially given that this was the real Doctor and he knew that Rory wasn't present for the whole phone call thing. Also he seemed miffed and angry that Rory was trying to get passed him.

I get that the Doctor was most likely trying to act to prevent the Ganger's from suspecting he wasn't really on their side, but it came off to me more of being angry that Rory might upstage his brilliant moment of cleverness.


As far as the Ganger/Amy switch. I'd say its the bit in Episode 2 where the Silent nabbed Amy, though that would require that they already had the Flesh, which is remarkably like Sontoran technology seen in nuWho season 4 which might mean a badguy alliance was still in the works. There was bantering about Cybermen going on here which would make the Silent, Sontoran's, and Cybermen possibly still allied and with the "required" one Dalek episode a season bit I'd imagine they'd still be there.

Is it possible that the finale for this season is the Doctor facing off against this dark alliance? I truly hope not. Rather I suspect that the Necro-Tardis's presence in Episode 1 means that someone is about to break open the Time War (yet again) and possibly have one of the Doctor's old enemies mastermind-ing the whole thing. Honestly I don't know and don't really care. I'm just along for the ride.

[Drolyt]

Well, that was interesting. Personally I think it was great, much better paced than last week, great story overall. I loved how they resolved the conflict, and I loved the Doctor/ganger switch even though I saw it coming a mile away. The cliffhanger is probably the best part, I'm really curious if anyone has any theories on that. Biggest negative? The word ganger. Really stupid way to shorten Doppelganger.

Anyone in America know a place to watch the new episode before it releases here next week? Preferably legal..

Yeah, England. In all seriousness, I know several places, but they fail your qualification and I will say no more because of board rules.

[Juggling Goth]

That was... annoying.

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So the gangers are all real people and not to be sacrificed lightly... apart from Amy's, because she's special. Even though she was standing in the room when the Tardis energy stabilised them and made them all indistinguishable from humans now. Okaaaaaaaay.

And what, the Doctor has a cure for blood clots on the brain just lying around, but he stands there and gawks when Amy performs Worst Aid a few episodes back?

Speaking of medical stuff, this is a problem with all sci-fi, but when is a future/alien civilisation gonna figure out that lying on your back is the worst position possible for giving birth, short of actually standing on your head?

And ye gods, if one of your characters is going to have loads of screen time, have several different versions of herself, and set the whole thing in motion? Get someone who can actually act. It was a relief when Jen turned into the monster thing (and, er, why did she do that?), because at least she stopped talking.

[SuperPanda]

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The CPR bit becomes worse when you consider that you now know that the Amy who performed the CPR was actually Ganger amy whom he doesn't trust at all.

Actually, the only explanation I buy for Ganger Amy is that she was more like Martha's "Ganger" from season 4, a partially autonomous duplicate that required Amy's active brain patterns to function. It explains her knee jerk reaction of "Ganger = evil".

It actually makes the Shoe swap make a bit less sense though.


Oh, and with the build up in the next episode and Rory looking like he'll be doing something heroic, does anyone think that he's going to die (again) there while saving Amy? The working title is "A good man goes to war" and River killed "A very good man." Also, For some reason eye-patch lady makes me think River Song when I look at her.

[Calemyr]

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I vote for the "between episodes 1 and 2" option for when the switch was made. The first appearance of Nurse Eyepatch is in Episode 2, and she spent several months separate from the rest of the party while searching for the Silence.

The little girl better not be the Doctor's, is all I care. Silence mindscrew or not, Rory has proven too loyal and too badass for that to happen.

Super Panda:

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That's the whole point - the Doctor recognized her as a ganger before the Rebel Flesh began and went to the factory to learn how to handle it. The gangers the episode are "early tech", while Amy wasn't - Amy was under direct control from her original at all times and the original never even realized that she wasn't the ganger. The trick that the ganger Doctor used was the reason the Doctor was there in the first place.

[Boci]

Its bugs me that

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Flesh Amy was killed. Wasn't the whole point of the episode that they deserved to live? I can understand the danger's of having a replica of such an important space time event as Amy, but I still think it needed to be handled more carefully to avoid spitting on the moral of the sotry. But then again maybe I missed something.

[Juggling Goth]

The little girl better not be the Doctor's, is all I care. Silence mindscrew or not, Rory has proven too loyal and too badass for that to happen.

Agreed. Rory is awesome and he doesn't deserve that. This whole Doctor-and-companion-in-twoo-wuv thing has gone on too long and needs to be put out of our misery. I was hoping including Rory would put an end to it. And not everything has to be about their super-special bond and how this particular companion is the Most Important Person Ever.

[Calemyr]

First, Boci:

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Ganger Amy was not an individual, it was a puppet. It was more advanced than the gangers from this series. Besides that, it was initiated by a presumably hostile force rather than a fluke solar storm.

Second, really stupid theory:

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I was just watching the season 5 finale again, and heard the repeated refrain of "Silence will fall". The full line was something akin to "The universe is cracking, the Pandorica will open, and Silenve will fall". I'm wondering if this is three separate catastrophes: The Tardis exploded (the cracks), the Pandorica opens (the trap), and the Silence falls (the lunar landing). I'm wondering if the destruction of the Silence ends up being a bad thing, and that they served a critical purpose that is no longer being dealt with. The Silence isn't the catastrophe, it's their defeat.

[SuperPanda]

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I was actually thinking that as well since the Rogue silent was trying to tell Amy to warn the Doctor of things and they were trying to do something with the space suit that killed the Doctor.

Also they captured Amy and were studying her, I was wondering if the Silent weren't actually somehow on humanity's side all along.

[Iskandar]

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I was actually thinking that as well since the Rogue silent was trying to tell Amy to warn the Doctor of things and they were trying to do something with the space suit that killed the Doctor.

Also they captured Amy and were studying her, I was wondering if the Silent weren't actually somehow on humanity's side all along.

I kinda doubt it. Remember the wounded Silent did say that humanity should kill them on sight, which seems to me that they aren't good in any way, shape, or form.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Biggest negative? The word ganger. Really stupid way to shorten Doppelganger.

A ganger is an old term for people who led gangs of navigators, the poorly paid guys who were often worked to death building England's Victorian transport infrastructure.

So its quite a clever double meaning despite its inelegance.

For me the biggest shock of the ending was:

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The Doctor having had a long term plan.

[Drolyt]

A ganger is an old term for people who led gangs of navigators, the poorly paid guys who were often worked to death building England's Victorian transport infrastructure.

So its quite a clever double meaning despite its inelegance.

For me the biggest shock of the ending was:

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The Doctor having had a long term plan.

I see, I didn't know that. As for The Doctor having a long term plan, it isn't that surprising. He seems to prefer to deal with things as they come, but he can plan if he wants to.

[Serenity]

And also a term used to refer to the members of a chain gang--prisoners forced into menial, heavy labor as part of their incarceration.

[Thufir]

For me the biggest shock of the ending was:

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The Doctor having had a long term plan.

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'Long term plan' is a bit of an exaggeration. He thought "Right, I'd better find out more about the Flesh so I'll know what to do with Amy." Then he went off and the events of the episodes happened. That's not particularly long term.

[SuperPanda]

On Closet Skeleton's big shock and the following discussions:

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Well, actually now that we know he had a big plan you can reasonably assume that he knew it from the end of Episode 2 onwards and that is what the quantum pregnancy was all about.

While I love the Doctor having a plan and that he's been working on it, I think the biggest turn off about this story direction for me is that it torpedos one of my favorite moments of Episode 2:

Can't remember the exact quote but:

"Yes we could go find out more about who that girl in the space suit it and how they got a TARDIS and all that, or we could just go off an have some random adventures. Whose up for adventures?"

In any serialized show like Doctor Who the episodes will have something of a meta-plot with character development and such happening as the show goes on, but the format of a long running serial with many writers also means that the characters can't change too much and that the meta-plot will mostly be side lined to the individual episode plots. Like with Bad Wolf and Mr. Saxxon under RTD we know these things are going to be happening and building up to something and eleven has already told us to "notice everything" so as lovers of the show we'll be watching for them. This moment for me had been a marvelously beautiful nudge and wink from the production team, and the Doctor himself, to the audience. It was the Doctor in character and the whole team for Doctor Who in reality acknowledging that we all want to have answers to the big story points but what we need to do now is sit back and enjoy the ride, because they were promising us that it would be Fan-Tas-tic.

With this revelation it becomes clear that this moment wasn't actually a wink and nudge of the Doctor being aware of the way his story is told, it wasn't a moment of witty connection between the show makers and show viewers, it was the Doctor lying to his companions so that he didn't tip off his hidden enemies to his knowledge.

Its still clever and very much like the Doctor, but it takes a fun and silly moment and turns it into a dark and calculated one. Instead of having Tenant saying to the 5th Doctor "All my love to long ago" or Eccelson's smile during the Doctor Dances "Who am I to argue with history" - "Usually the first in Line." Both had moments where the Doctor was both in character and in his reality and also giving a fun nudge and wink to the audience. Both those moments were written by Moffat, so I had thought this one was eleven's moment.


On this same note, even though I've yet to find any episodes with the Fourth Doctor, I enjoyed "Would you like a Jelly Baby" and "Reverse the Polarity" mostly because I've read the 10 Doctors.

Also the Doctor(s) scenes were hilarious for the same reason.

I think this all stems from Moffat wanting to take the Doctor down a darker path and Smith playing it very very well. Nine's doctor had all the rage and fire from the war, but I loved him because he was inside still pretty soft. He didn't want anyone to realize how kind he was and when pushed he very seldom followed through on his threats.

Tennant was the reverse in many ways. There wasn't as much grand posturing there was just a "please stop or I'll have to stop you." And I loved that aspect of the character too. Both were very inhuman in their capacity to care. Smith's personality seems to flicker from Jovial to caring to prankster to down right mean. Of the four Doctor's I've gotten acquainted with (Saw McGann's movie this weekend) he seems the least in control of himself and the most likely to do something dreadful.

If I didn't know Moffat was making a complete break with RTD era who (and if it hadn't been so clear last season) I would think The Waters of Mars might play into Smith's new personality. He's had more than a few moments when he's made me feel that he was about to head down a path where he needed to be stopped and so far hasn't gone down that path. River seems like she'd happily walk down it with him. Amy seems like she'd flap her arms behind him helplessly and beg him to stop. Rory seems like he would actually do something to stop the Doctor, and I do wonder if that isn't ultimately what his fate is, and if that isn't why the Tardis liked him (apart from cheap jokes).

I still love Smith's Doctor and I love Moffat's who too. I'm probably wrong on a lot of the spoilery bits.

On the fun moment I feel was slightly spoiled in this last episode: I realize that having these one off joke like moments actually mean something more means that it is deeper story telling and overall higher literary quality, but one of the things I loved about RTD era who was that it wasn't afraid to be silly for the sake of silly. We still have bow ties and fezzes so its only a small thing... though if the fate of the universe winds up being connected to whether or not the Doctor has a bow tie somehow and he explains that he already knew about that and that was what made Bow ties cool... well, at that point I'd be thoroughly disappointed.

[Thufir]

On Closet Skeleton's big shock and the following discussions:

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While I love the Doctor having a plan and that he's been working on it, I think the biggest turn off about this story direction for me is that it torpedos one of my favorite moments of Episode 2:

Can't remember the exact quote but:

"Yes we could go find out more about who that girl in the space suit it and how they got a TARDIS and all that, or we could just go off an have some random adventures. Who's up for adventures?"

In any serialized show like Doctor Who the episodes will have something of a meta-plot with character development and such happening as the show goes on, but the format of a long running serial with many writers also means that the characters can't change too much and that the meta-plot will mostly be side lined to the individual episode plots. Like with Bad Wolf and Mr. Saxon under RTD we know these things are going to be happening and building up to something and eleven has already told us to "notice everything" so as lovers of the show we'll be watching for them. This moment for me had been a marvelously beautiful nudge and wink from the production team, and the Doctor himself, to the audience. It was the Doctor in character and the whole team for Doctor Who in reality acknowledging that we all want to have answers to the big story points but what we need to do now is sit back and enjoy the ride, because they were promising us that it would be Fan-Tas-tic.

With this revelation it becomes clear that this moment wasn't actually a wink and nudge of the Doctor being aware of the way his story is told, it wasn't a moment of witty connection between the show makers and show viewers, it was the Doctor lying to his companions so that he didn't tip off his hidden enemies to his knowledge.

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I disagree. I don't think that moment is cold and calculating, I think it's just the Doctor being the Doctor. The moment doesn't change for me - it still simply exemplifies the reason the Doctor doesn't tend to have long term plans: he has a time machine, and never needs to be in a rush to go on any particular adventure (Timey-wimey shenanigans (Beautiful word, shenanigans) aside). As I see it, he fully intends to investigate further into the child and the space suit and so on, but feels no particular urge to do so at that point in time. Same as how he kept looking at the monitor with Amy's pregnancy scan, but didn't bother actually doing anything about it until these last two episodes because he was too busy having adventures and it wasn't particularly urgent.

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We still have bow ties and fezzes so its only a small thing... though if the fate of the universe winds up being connected to whether or not the Doctor has a bow tie somehow and he explains that he already knew about that and that was what made Bow ties cool... well, at that point I'd be thoroughly disappointed.

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Actually, that to me sounds like something he'd joke about. "Has it ever occurred to you that maybe the whole entire fate of the whole entire universe is dependent on the fact that I am wearing a bow tie and it'd all boil away to nothingness if I took it off?" "No. You'd save it, like you always do." "Well, true. But I wouldn't look nearly so cool while I did it."
...Or something like that.

Though if he does at some point have to remove his bow tie and use it as, I don't know, an improvised slingshot or something to save the day, and inevitably follows it up with "Bow ties: cool." or similar comment, I would love that.

[SuperPanda]

I think I missworded my bowtie comment:

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The example you mentioned I too would love, it embodies what I was saying I love the show for. I was trying to say that if there was some even in which his possession of a bowtie was the only thing that saved that day and he had known about it since he decided to start wearing a bowtie and has only been wearing a bow tie for that very reason... it would lesson the bowties are cool thing from something that I currently love completely into something still fun but not nearly as fun.

If feels a bit like the Doctor apologizing for being cool.

On the other one:

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You probably got it as it was intended. Like I said in the upper note though: the took a small moment of characterization that I absolutely loved and attached an explanation to it which didn't really need to be there. He wasn't worried about running straight off to find and answer because he was the Doctor, because he had a time machine... but no, instead it was because he needed to learn more about the Flesh and keep ganger amy from noticing anything.

10 did a very similar thing with the Marhta Ganger in Season 4 and that one made a little more sense because the Doctor's "Con" against the baddies didn't last as long. This one is suggested to have been going on for the better part of 9 months. (She'd have to had been taken before she started showing she was pregnant or Rory would have known).

I like that he's capable of plans, and I do like this plan and that he's done it so well. I simply felt a little let down that a moment of pure "I'm the Doctor" self revalry was excused by it all being part of the grand story.

Again, in case I'm not clear: I still loved it. I guess I'm more a fan of the moments when Who is silly for silly's sake than creepy for creepy's sake.

[Voidhawk]

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I haven't really been reading this thread much, so appologies if it's allready come up, but I suddenly had a brainwave about what Idris (the Tardis) said near the end of The Doctor's Wife.

She said: "The only water in the Forest is the River."
Now obviously this is a reference to River Song, because how many other rivers have we seen? But then it struck me: several times we've had an episode with River Song in it, there was a forest of somekind in it as well.

The first time we see her is in The Silence in the Library/The Forest of the Dead, where the Library was refered to as the Vasta Nerada's forest, as it was made from the first one.
The second time we see her is in The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, which has the crashed space ship with an onboard electric-forest for processing the atmosphere.

I may just be talking out of my fez here, but I was wondering if anyone else thinks there might be something to this?

[Thufir]

I think I mis-worded my bowtie comment:

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The example you mentioned I too would love, it embodies what I was saying I love the show for. I was trying to say that if there was some even in which his possession of a bow tie was the only thing that saved that day and he had known about it since he decided to start wearing a bow tie and has only been wearing a bow tie for that very reason... it would lessen the bow ties are cool thing from something that I currently love completely into something still fun but not nearly as fun.

If feels a bit like the Doctor apologizing for being cool.

Oh no, I got what you meant and I agree. But that thought then prompted me onto the ideas I described, so I thought I'd share them.

[Szilard]

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I haven't really been reading this thread much, so appologies if it's allready come up, but I suddenly had a brainwave about what Idris (the Tardis) said near the end of The Doctor's Wife.

She said: "The only water in the Forest is the River."
Now obviously this is a reference to River Song, because how many other rivers have we seen? But then it struck me: several times we've had an episode with River Song in it, there was a forest of somekind in it as well.

The first time we see her is in The Silence in the Library/The Forest of the Dead, where the Library was refered to as the Vasta Nerada's forest, as it was made from the first one.
The second time we see her is in The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, which has the crashed space ship with an onboard electric-forest for processing the atmosphere.

I may just be talking out of my fez here, but I was wondering if anyone else thinks there might be something to this?

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When I first heard "The only water in the forest is the River" I immediately thought of the forest in Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, and it took me a bit longer to notice the possible play on words. And while it's true that we didn't see any other water in that forest, why would the TARDIS warn the Doctor or give him a hint about something that's already happened?

@V: And the return was cleverly hidden in the episode itself.

[Closet_Skeleton]

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When I first heard "The only water in the forest is the River" I immediately thought of the forest in Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, and it took me a bit longer to notice the possible play on words. And while it's true that we didn't see any other water in that forest, why would the TARDIS warn the Doctor or give him a hint about something that's already happened?

The Doctor has already returned to that scene once.

[Mauve Shirt]

Some of you might enjoy this.

[CurlyKitGirl]

The Mostly Blind Trek Through Nu Who continues with:

'Gridlock' (Season Three, Episode Three)
Same format as before.

Spoiler

Show

Bad black and blue news feed on traffic. Is that the American Gothic couple? Yes, it is! It is! Wow, that's really bad smog outside, just look at the windows.
Oh. Explode-y Trek style instrumentation and a stock growl. Well, from the trailer from last episode I know there's ridiculously bad traffic.
INTRO! Writer: RTD.
Argh. The Doctor stretches "one trip" to one to the past and one to the future.
Yay! Gallifrey information. Awesome. Straight information about Gallifrey is very hard to come across, at least as far as the tellybox show goes isn't it? I guess being the revival creator gives RTD creative license on it. For the experts in Classic Who among us: does this information tally with Classic Gallifrey? Either way, it sounds a very pretty place, if heavy on the red side of the colour pallet. The music and Tennant's expression really sell this scene. Quiet and yearning, looking into the past. What is that music? Starts 02.01 I want. It's quiet, subtle, and pensive.
Another thing that sells this scene is how reticent the Doctor is, until he starts remembering everything he lost; and then throws it all off with a "NAH! Where's the fun for me?" You can see he's pushing the sadness away into his manic attitude.
It's a shame we never get to see Gallifrey though.
And we're in Newx15 York. With the Face of Boe and a Cat-Nun! THE CAT-NUN HAS A CYBER-MACHINE GUN WITH GLOWY GREEN LIGHTS! Wow. And Boe wants the Doctor. "Before it's too late" For what?
So they're in the slums of Newx15 York. Martha's right though, the Doctor'd "enjoy anything". Except Upper Leadworth.
ROSE! Damn it. Ten second endless talk about Rose. And it's official. Martha Jones has the hots for the Doctor. On the plus side, the Doctor doesn't seem to care about Martha or her attitude. On the down side, it's because he's pining for Rose. Ugh.
On the plus side, some split-screen internet manipulation lead me to find this OST, and the first couple minutes make me think this is the track played when the Doctor was remembering Gallifrey. I think I'll need a music folder just for Doctor Who now.
"Happy"? What's that? I'm with Martha, it sounds drug-like. The Docto says "[m]oods". And listening in again, I can hear "Anger" and that dismal, sad lady asks for some "Forget". And what's this about the motorway? And why don't people come back?
Whoa.
Drugs. In a patch. And they can make you forget like that? Don't want.
Yeah. Martha's got herself kidnapped. She's wrong though about the Doctor wanting to "kill [them] all". He's not likely to. Holy wrath yes, but probably no death. They are humans after all, and the Doctor likes humans.
Tennant, honey, that big shout of "MARTHA!" is not your best moment of acting by a long shot. And that 'special effect', not bad for a video game produced around the turn of the millennium.
Exposition about motorway rules: carpooling is awesome; you get special stuff. Oh hey, that lady selling "Happy Happy" is Scottish, sweet.
Huh. Whoa. Doctor how . . . bitchy. Threatening to close down and or destroy a street of mood sellers because Martha was abducted there. Overreacting much. It seems these mood sellers are legal as well, so what he's proposing is illegal.
The Humanjackers are looking to - six years to go ten miles?! And the Hamanjackers are happy about it because they can get their baby into school. Um. Car. Where's the food?
11.00 The special effects are better. Hey! Cat-man! Irish cat-man in aviator glasses! That's amazing. Unlike the effect fume effects. And He sounds like Father Dougal from Father Ted! Huh. Thomas Kincaid Brannigan. With his wife Valerie. And kittens! SO CUTE! "Mama"?! Half-cat babies. I'm just going to pause the video and girl out over how ridiculously cute and adorable these little balls of fur are!
I'm mean they're so cute! Granted the 'mama' doesn't sound like it should be from a two month old half-human - you know, I think it's a girl. That doesn't sound like it should be coming from a two month old cat-girl baby. Must have been an easy birth.
Okay. I love this family. So. Much.
Driving for twelve years? As newlyweds?! FIVE MILES in twelve years?! This is some seriously bad traffic jam. And I'm starting to get a bad feeling about the 'fast lane'. And why aren't people just using it if it's empty? Thirty miles an hour is a big thing. Apparently. And why, if all you need is three grown up people to a car, aren't people just buddying up with the next car over and going into the fast lane that way? Come on! I'm not logical, and I'm thinking of better ways to get around the traffic jam than these people.
I seriously love Brannigan.
Oh hey, old lesbian couple. Lovely. Ah, the Cassinni sisters have a carspotter. They're adorable. If a little plot convenient. They just so happened to spot Martha and her Humanjacker companions. And they just so happened to be friends with Brannigan. Who just so happened to have picked up the Doctor.
Implausible. Couldn't they have at least tried phoning a few others. But I'm enjoying the setup, so I'll handwave away this problem by saying Brannigan (who is far and away amazing above all others) knew they liked carspotting.
Argh. The Martha scenes bug me. Urban legends about the monster of the week. It eats people. And lives at the bottom of the motorway. Where the fast lane is. And the "monster" isn't the "air vents" after all.
Why don't the Brannigan's want to go down the fast lane? Because! And they're not saying why. Except obviously we know it's the Monster In the Deep. (And really, twenty years? No way is this just a traffic jam) No police either. And they put people on hold. No officials at all, ever.
Talk about denial.
I'm just going to call it. Everybody's dead Dave. ((03.00)Does anyone know how to set the time thingy on Youtube videos?) And it's all the people in the city state of Upper Newx15 York.
I do think though, an endless cardrive is terrifying. I detest car rides at the best of time.
Aaaahhhh, the song at 19.30 is beautiful. Most be really well known as everybody's singing it. I think it's the 'Rugged Cross', very beautiful hymn.
The Doctor's - oh my! The baby's mobile has little fishies on it! That's adorable. - going carhopping down the lanes. Dangerous job. Love this bit: "Look after this! I love that coat." Very Doctor.
I like this line too: "I hardly know [Martha]. I was too busy showing off." Yeah, you were.
And I swear Brannigan has a crush on the Doctor. He called him insane, and also a bit "magnificent".
Okay. Germaphobe. Two Japanese girls. Two nudists. A guy who likes red a lot. Isn't he technically exposing all these people to noxious gases as well? Why aren't they shutting the hatches?
Back with the Humanjackers: more ominous noises. And a weregirl of some sort is warning people to get out of the fast lane. They refuse. weregirl's car is omnomnom'd.
Oh hey. Overly British Person in a trilby! And he "hasn't lost [his] manners". How British of him.
Cat-Nun's attacking people again.
The hell is down - crabs! Yeah, they're called macra, but they're giant crabs. Eating humans in cars. Hehe, tinned sardines.
Why are there giant crabs in Newx15 York? Seriously. I know Doctor Who does some crazy monsters. But giant crabs. Well, it's still not 'Love and Monsters'.
And Martha's advice is something cribbed from WWII submarine films. No noise or electrics.
The crabs feed off of gases. Essentially pollution. Aesop. Aesop. AESOP! Pollution is bad.
And the Cat-Nun is the nun from that last episode with Trampoline Cassandra. With a gun. To protect herself from pirates. When did this novice grow badass? And now something bad - like bad bad. Badder than just Macra. is going on, so they immediately transported out of there.
To the Senate. And yep. The overcity of Newx15 York has been dead for twenty-four years. Died of 'Bliss'. Hello aesop.
And can airborne viruses really kill themselves off? Or kill an entire world in seven minutes? Yep. Aesop. Smacking me in the face with its moral lesson. Drugs? Turns out they're bad.
The people in the Undercity and the motorway are all that survives of the humans of New Earth. And Boe saved them. Waiting for the Doctor. Well. Um. Talk about faith in the Doctor, how did he know the Doctor would come?
Anyway, Boe's protecting all who survive, and the planet's under auto quarantine for one hundred years. Seems a logical thing to do, given the circumstances. And the Cat-Nun stayed. For penance.
Sorry, but now, when I look at the Face of Boe, all I can think of is the episode of Red Dwarf where Lister's a brain-and-dreadlocks-inna-jar. Hee. Boe with a scouser accent.
Smeg! Martha, je vous deteste. "Sometimes I think he likes me, but sometimes I just think he needs someone with him." Whatever happened to three episodes ago and barely a few weeks of your own timeline (assuming a few days time skip within 'Smith and Jones' itself. And that it went straight into 'Shakespeare Code', and allowing for a generous amount of time in Elizabethan London, given the opening to this episode is fairly explicitly within hours of 'Shakespeare Code') when you said, "I don't do aliens".
Stop. Romancing. The Doctor.
Floozy.
I do like Martha's reaction (32.00) when she realises exactly what she's done, and why. And that the Doctor seldom talks about himself.
By the by. This 'two minutes of air' thing? Ran out a minute ago. When you were talking.
And the Doctor? Is a stranger to everyone, and he'll help anyone. Because he's the Doctor and one of the most compassionate beings to ever exist.
Martha and co. play British Bulldog with giant crabs, and begin to lose. Technobabble computer stuff happens, and the Doctor opens the road. From above. And the Face "gives [him his] last". So the Face is dying? Quickly.
"What in Jehovah was that?!" Ballsy. Oh God the kittens are cute.
How did the Doctor hack into everything at once?
I like that the Doctor's basically saving millions of people coincidentally to saving Martha. Shame Martha's got the hots for him, but I'm assuming the Doctor doesn't. Especially given last episode's Bed Incident.
Doctor-Brannigan family interactions make me happy.
WHy did Martha look at a skellington and go all gaspy when she knows the Doctor was alive hours ago?
Sad times. Boe is dying. Don't know why his jar shattered though. Ah! The Boe's giving away his secret. I've been waiting for this for a fair while. A season. "Know this Time Lord: You. Are. Not. Alone."
Okay. My socks? Are rocked off.
Time Lords are coming back baby!
And the soaring music, this is actually a really sad moment. And we've known Boe (properly I mean) for about twenty-five minutes.
Ugh.
Martha.
Egotistical.
Paraphrased: "What Boe said, is it because I'm with you?" So happy for the smackdown. And the Martha starts to grow a pair, demanding an answer - anything. And in response to a hymn: "I'm not just a Time Lord. I'm the last of them."
And the answer! "There was a war. A Time War. The last great Time War. my people fought a race called the Daleks. For the sake of all creation. And they lost. We lost. So everyone lost. And they're all gone now. My family. My friends. Even the sky.
"Oh you should have seen it that old planet!
"The second sun would rise in the south and the mountains would shine. The leaves were silver, when they caught the light every morning they would light the forest on fire . . . "
Okay, this is a brilliant moment. The Doctor is finally talking, tantalising us with what can only be described as a world from a fantasy novel, and he's mourning. All this time, we've only had hints as to the Time War and what Gallifrey was like, mostly in this episode at the beginning (so well bookended RTD), and now the Doctor speaks of what he lost. Properly. WHile that hymn goes on in the background.
Martha, I don't really like you so far, but for giving us this moment, I can forgive one romance moment from this episode.
it's so quiet, mournfully peaceful, and it's a lovely way of finding out more about the Doctor. And seeing as Nine was all battle-angsty and angry, and Tennant's been so-so on it; I think talking out his feelings could help.
Here's to a more cheerful - not manic, cheerful - Doctor.

Preview thoughts: New York. Again. Hooverville mystery? Like the Depression slums? Pigmen? Terrible New Yorker accent. Daleks?!
Pig-men?
Whut?
And didn't the Daleks all re-die in - oh. The Cult of Skaro! They're back.
With pig-men.
In jump suits.
Buh.


Best Moment:
Anything involving Brannigan. And the revelation about the Time War.

Worst Moment:
Martha and the Humanjackers discussing Martha's 'romance' with the Doctor.

Best Special Effect:
Boe and Brannigan.

Worst Special Effect:
The take-off of the car Martha was in. Appalling.

Best Actor:
Thomas Kincaid Brannigan. I love you so much.

Worst Actor:
The lady Humanjacker with the baby.

Number of Times Rose Is Mentioned:
One. And it was very annoying as it explicitly romantified the Doctor/Martha relationship. Two episodes after Martha swore she'd never "do aliens".

Overall, not a bad episode. Not as good as 'The Shakespeare Code', about on par with 'Smith and Jones', but more annoying than that episode.
How does this episode compare to last season? It's not 'Love and Monsters' or 'Fear Her'. But it's definitely a sub-par episode for the Tennant run of the Doctor. Of course, season two was a very strong season. It had Giles, K9 and Sarah Jane Smith in one episode, a werewolf, a Moffat episode, a fairly good Cyberman story, and a great 'Impossible Planet/Satan Pit' one.
This episode is a little better than 'New Earth', 'The idiot Lantern' and the two-part finale. And I only say that because of the atrocious Rose-centric and slightly OTT nature of the finale.
Long story short, waaaay too late. Basically, an average episode of Nu Who. Good, but not particularly memorable, aside from icky-Rose moments and the death of Boe. And Brannigan.
Who doesn't love an Irish cat-person?
Noone!

[Aidan305]

The Mostly Blind Trek Through Nu Who

Spoiler

Show

And He sounds like Father Dougal from Father Ted!

Spoiler

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That's because it is Ardal O'Hanlon. I was very surprised and happy to see him on Dr Who.

Spoiler

Show

The people in the Undercity and the motorway are all that survives of the humans of New Earth. And Boe saved them. Waiting for the Doctor. Well. Um. Talk about faith in the Doctor, how did he know the Doctor would come?

Spoiler

Show

It gets explained at a later point in the series.

[Thufir]

The Mostly Blind Trek Through Nu Who continues with:

'Gridlock' (Season Three, Episode Three)
Same format as before.

Spoiler

Show

Huh. Whoa. Doctor how . . . bitchy. Threatening to close down and or destroy a street of mood sellers because Martha was abducted there. Overreacting much. It seems these mood sellers are legal as well, so what he's proposing is illegal.

It's been a while since I watched that episode, but I was generally under the impression he was going to close them down because he doesn't like moods (Because Drugs Are Bad). Martha having been abducted just made him angrier about it.

The Humanjackers are looking to - six years to go ten miles?!

What I don't get is: why don't they just walk? Ten miles, it'd take me maybe 2 hours to walk that far. Even if there isn't a particularly direct route, gotta be less than six years.

And kittens! SO CUTE! "Mama"?! Half-cat babies. I'm just going to pause the video and girl out over how ridiculously cute and adorable these little balls of fur are!

N'aww. You're adorable.

Ah, the Cassinni sisters have a carspotter. They're adorable. If a little plot convenient. They just so happened to spot Martha and her Humanjacker companions. And they just so happened to be friends with Brannigan. Who just so happened to have picked up the Doctor.
Implausible. Couldn't they have at least tried phoning a few others. But I'm enjoying the setup, so I'll handwave away this problem by saying Brannigan (who is far and away amazing above all others) knew they liked carspotting.

Ehh, contrived coincidences happen. My personal theory is that the Doctor, as a Time Lord, has an innate sense for where history can change, timelines be re-routed etc, which is why he always seems to be in exactly the right place at the right time - he's instinctively drawn to those places and times.

(Does anyone know how to set the time thingy on Youtube videos?)

Add #t=XmYZs where X and YZ are the minutes and seconds respectively (So in this instance, #t=3m0s)

Martha, je vous deteste. "Sometimes I think he likes me, but sometimes I just think he needs someone with him." Whatever happened to three episodes ago and barely a few weeks of your own timeline (assuming a few days time skip within 'Smith and Jones' itself. And that it went straight into 'Shakespeare Code', and allowing for a generous amount of time in Elizabethan London, given the opening to this episode is fairly explicitly within hours of 'Shakespeare Code') when you said, "I don't do aliens."

Yeah, that was misdirection when she said that. Trying to play it cool or some such, because he didn't seem to be interested.
Sorry to disappoint you.

By the by. This 'two minutes of air' thing? Ran out a minute ago. When you were talking.

That happens on pretty much anything where they state a short time limit. I've never really gotten why they don't just time the scene and change the line accordingly.

"Oh you should have seen it that old planet!
"The second sun would rise in the south and the mountains would shine. The leaves were silver, when they caught the light every morning they would light the forest on fire . . . "
Okay, this is a brilliant moment.

Best bit of the episode to my mind.

[Triscuitable]

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It gets explained at a later point in the series.

And what is that point?