Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

[Borgh]

I just realized something: the Monolith is amazing. Not just general amazing but the special variety of amazing reserved for uhmm. That really amazing thing.
lets compare it to a land raider, the only other thing with av 14 on all sides
it is 200 points including a upgraded armour-like special rule, LR easily does 250 before updates.
It packs a total of 12 str 4ap5 gaus shots on the corners and a 24'' leman russ battle cannon. The LR has some lascannons.
It teleports stuff around or out of reserve, making it effectively a transport for pretty much any unit thats not in CC. The LR is a transport too but it does not teleport.
If it is not transporting, you can park it up to a unit, and every model within d6 has to take a strength test or dies with no saves allowed

Oh and it deepstrikes.

[hamishspence]

Pretty much. It's lost immunity to the various means of increasing armour penetration (anything that generates extra dice, the Tank Hunter skill and so on) but it's still good value for what you get.

In the last codex one reason not to take lots was the Phase Out rule- once the number of Necrons dropped below a certain amount (25%), the whole army phased out, automatically losing.

That's gone.

[Ninjaman]

Nope- only 7 Universal Special Rules are listed (6 if you take into account that Night Vision and Acute Senses are currently one and the same rule), and Stubborn and Fearless aren't on the list.

What special rules are on the list?

true, it will be bad vs anything but low Ld enemies, but it's AP 1, which may help a bit.

It is shooting?

[hamishspence]

It's a shooting template attack.

Acute Senses/Night Vision, Stealth, Tank Hunters, Furious Charge, Counter-Attack, and Hit & Run, are the skills.

[Trixie]

I just realized something: the Monolith is amazing. Not just general amazing but the special variety of amazing reserved for uhmm. That really amazing thing.
lets compare it to a land raider, the only other thing with av 14 on all sides
it is 200 points including a upgraded armour-like special rule, LR easily does 250 before updates.
It packs a total of 12 str 4ap5 gaus shots on the corners and a 24'' leman russ battle cannon. The LR has some lascannons.
It teleports stuff around or out of reserve, making it effectively a transport for pretty much any unit thats not in CC. The LR is a transport too but it does not teleport.
If it is not transporting, you can park it up to a unit, and every model within d6 has to take a strength test or dies with no saves allowed

Oh and it deepstrikes.

Land Raiders are... Not that good though.

For example, today, in my fight IG fielded (in 1750 pts) 6 S9 and 3 S8 ordnance guns (plus an assortment of lascannons) - that would have made short work out of 2-3 Monoliths quickly and I don't see them fielded in less in such quantities.

Oh, and Vindicare gets 4d6+3 against them without asking now.

[hamishspence]

That's why they should Deep Strike, and be used alongside other units- rather than simply start in the deployment zone and advance.

[lord_khaine]

The tactic could get nastier with 3 men in each Destroyer squad being upgraded to Heavy Destroyers- since they retain their old range and are now Assault weapons.

I do suspect it can get even more fun when you give them all Tank hunter

edit.

That's why they should Deep Strike, and be used alongside other units- rather than simply start in the deployment zone and advance.

And thats where that other skill comes in handy, as soon as the opponent gets something in from reserve, your entire army can then deepstrike down (or at least all the parts that can deepstrike).

[Trixie]

That's why they should Deep Strike, and be used alongside other units- rather than simply start in the deployment zone and advance.

Except, as Codex: Blood Angels shows, deepstriking Land Raiders are not an advantage at all, and if anything, Monolith is even bigger. Does it even have any drop pod like deepstrike rule?

Hmm, must get the Codex and check.

[Etcetera]

Land Raiders are... Not that good though.

For example, today, in my fight IG fielded (in 1750 pts) 6 S9 and 3 S8 ordnance guns (plus an assortment of lascannons) - that would have made short work out of 2-3 Monoliths quickly and I don't see them fielded in less in such quantities.

Oh, and Vindicare gets 4d6+3 against them without asking now.

Assuming they hit, of course. Blind barrages scatter an average of 7", so you can't rely on them too much. In addition, against monoliths you have no hope of still inflicting damage if the centre of the template is not over the Monolith, due to it being 14 all round.

Personally, I'm glad to see the living metal rule go for the monolith, it was irritating keeping track of what was affected by it and what wasn't.

[hamishspence]

Does it even have any drop pod like deepstrike rule?

Hmm, must get the Codex and check.

Doesn't seem to. Which would make the use of Deep Strike rather more limited.

[Trixie]

Assuming they hit, of course. Blind barrages scatter an average of 7", so you can't rely on them too much. In addition, against monoliths you have no hope of still inflicting damage if the centre of the template is not over the Monolith, due to it being 14 all round.

Who said blind? It's so big you can fire guided barrage, or even fire directly as ordnance gun, in about 90% of the cases, and even in 2 gun battery at least one hit per salvo will connect.

Plus, as we saw today, if blind barrage can repeatedly hit Prism, I'm pretty sure it can hit a monolith, too

[The Glyphstone]

I'm mourning the loss of Ponderous. Now a Monolith can be blown up because it landed on a random enemy shmuck

[The_Final_Stand]

Not any more, they don't. In the old codex, they moved models out of the way so that they could land. Not so anymore.

Cripes, I'm already referring to it as the old codex. The new one's only been out for a day!

[The Glyphstone]

Not any more, they don't. In the old codex, they moved models out of the way so that they could land. Not so anymore.

Cripes, I'm already referring to it as the old codex. The new one's only been out for a day!

...that's exactly what I said.

[Trixie]

Hmm, borrowed the Codex. So far, so good, though my favourite quote so far is...

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Preferred Enemy (Everything!!!)

Hmm, I like the 'eccentric' bent of the new Necrons, will definitely read further.

[Squark]

If it is not transporting, you can park it up to a unit, and every model within d6 has to take a strength test or dies with no saves allowed

...


SQUEEEEEEEE!

I don't care if it's still horribly innefective, It's still awesome.

[Renegade Paladin]

Imperial Guard rules question: If a veteran squad is led by Sergeant Bastonne and contains a vox-caster, does he get to reroll failed orders to himself?

While we're on the subject of Bastonne, I've been thinking: Veterans, three meltaguns, Bastonne, Valkyrie. Bring It Down! for twin-linked meltaguns anywhere on the table I may need them. 260 points minimum for the unit; more if I use a Vendetta instead or give the Valkyrie rocket pods for maximum infantry suppression (after all, the meltas inside are doing the anti-armor dirty work if all goes well, and may need nearby infantry cleared out so they can live to get back in). Worth it? (I know meltavets in a Vendetta are widely considered worth it; basically the question is whether or not Bastonne is worth it for maximizing the squad's hit rate.)

[DaedalusMkV]

Imperial Guard rules question: If a veteran squad is led by Sergeant Bastonne and contains a vox-caster, does he get to reroll failed orders to himself?

Yes. The same is true for Command Squads with Voxes. Yes, it makes no sense, but vox-casters in general make no sense in this edition. Just roll with it.

[IthilanorStPete]

Looking through the Necron codex, there's a fair few units that don't have models yet. Specifically:
-Night Scythes
-Triarch Stalkers
-Canoptek Wraiths
-Tomb Blades
-Doom Scythes
-Canoptek Spyders

I assume there will be a second wave of models released at some point that'll cover these?

[Cheesegear]

While we're on the subject of Bastonne, I've been thinking: Veterans, three meltaguns, Bastonne, Valkyrie. [...] 260 points minimum for the unit [...] Worth it?

I like it. Particularly because Veterans don't normally get Orders because in a Gunship army there usually aren't Command Squads. It depends what else you want to spend the 60 points on. I've said before that 60 points doesn't go very far in the Guard Codex. Generally once you've stacked three Veterans in three seperate Gunships you're done. You don't need any more Troops and all your FA slots are 'filled' because Gunships in squadrons make their owners sad.

Similar to Dark Eldar. Once your slots are filled (and the slots go rather quickly when stuff is cheap), the only thing left is to start upgrading squads.

Vets in Vendetta/Valkyrie; 230 Points x3 = 690 Points. Kind of ridiculous. But that's why the Guard Codex is near-broken.

Looking through the Necron codex, there's a fair few units that don't have models yet. [...] I assume there will be a second wave of models released at some point that'll cover these?

Ask Tyranids. There will be a Wave 2 based on demand.

Everybody wanted Dark Eldar. They got another wave.
Nobody wanted Tyranids. They didn't get a couple of things that they probably should've.

[Talkkno]

Does blood angels+land speeders work?
I was thinking of something like this...

Note, I know the Reclusiarch isn't optimal, but I'd like to keep him.

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1850 points blood angels.
HQ
Reclusiarch – 160 Points
Jump Pack, melta bombs

Librarian-100pts
Jump Pack
Shield of Sanguinis Sanguine Sword

Elites:
Sanguinary Priests (x2) - 190 Points
Melta Bombs, Power Weapons, Jump Packs

Troops
Assault Squad (x10) - 235 Points
x2 Meltaguns
Sergeant: Power Fist

Assault Squad (x10) - 235 Points
x2 Meltaguns
Sergeant: Power Fist



Assault Squad (x10) - 235 Points
x2 Meltaguns
Sergeant: Power Fist

Assault Squad (x10) - 225 Points
x2 Flamers
Sergeant: Power Fist,

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Squadron (200pts)
Land Speeder
Multimelta, Typhoon Missile Launcher

Land Speeder
Multimelta, Typhoon Missile Launcher

Land Speeder Squadron (200pts)
Land Speeder
Multimelta, Typhoon Missile Launcher

Land Speeder
Multimelta, Typhoon Missile Launcher


Total: 1780/1850 Points

[Cheesegear]

Does blood angels+land speeders work?
I was thinking of something like this...

In the list you've presented, I don't think they do. You've basically made a DoA list, which has Land Speeders instead of Stormravens. Land Speeders. Instead of Stormravens!? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

In a list full of Razorbacks and Predators, having Typhoons to shoot Missiles is very good. But, like I said, in the list you've made, they don't work. Being vehicles, in an otherwise all-Infantry army, they're going to get shot at.

[gabado]

so i am planning on participating in my local game store's december tournament. this will be a 500pt tournament, played at a friendly, but still competitive level. i have decided to run black templars, because... well why not?

i have come up with three possible lists as a starting point:

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HQ:
Castellan 100pt
-power sword
-storm shield
-Holy Orb of Antioch

Troop:
initiate squad A 98pt
-power weapon
-flamer
-crusader seal
razorback 100pt
-twin linked lazcannons
-storm bolter

initate squad B 102pt
-power weapon
-neophyte (with a CCW)
-crusader seal
razorback 100pt
-twin linked lazcannons
-storm bolter

total: 500pt

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HQ:
emperor's champion 140pt
-accept any challenge, no matter the odds

troop:
initiate squad A 100pt
-power weapon
-melta gun
razorback 80pt
-storm bolter

initiate squad B 100pt
-power weapon
-melta gun
razorback 80pt
-storm bolter

total: 500pt

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HQ:
castellan 80pt
-power weapon

Elite:
dreadnought 115pt
-assault cannon
-heavy flamer

Troop:
initiate squad A 90pt
-power weapon
initiate squad B 90pt
-power weapon

Heavy support:
vindicator 125pt

total: 500pt

just for clarification, i am using the actual black templars codex, not the current space marine codex.
preemptively, black templar razorbacks have the choice between TL heavy bolters and TL lascannons. initiate squads may not take lascannons or missile launchers.
my metagame includes several very aggressive tyranid players, and about four very competitive space wolf players. i am trying my best to prepare for both enemy armor and hordes of bugs and greenskins.
thoughts on which list i should use? questions? concerns? and as always, criticisms are welcome

[Cheesegear]

this will be a 500pt tournament [...] i have decided to run black templars, because... well why not?

Because they're overpriced and underpowered at that points bracket?

All the lists you present are better as Blood Angels. Other than that, they're fine.

my metagame includes several very aggressive tyranid players, and about four very competitive space wolf players. i am trying my best to prepare for both enemy armor and hordes of bugs and greenskins.

Tyranids, Space Wolves and Greenskins? Given the choice, why try and beat them at their own game? At this level of play, your best bet is an All-Infantry Gunline.

Drop the Razorbacks, Black Templars are better on foot anyway. Spend those hundreds of points on more bodies. Or go MSU anyway and grab Lascannons or Missile Launchers on all your squads, since you're Black Templars and Codex Marines are jelly.

initiate squads may not take lascannons or missile launchers.

...Check again.

[Borgh]

Speaking of BT, do you know who hands one of the very few victories over the new Necrons? Helbrecht. He loses a hand to Imhotek The Stormlord and in revenge boards and blows up the stormlords flagship.

again: Helbrecht get so mad he blows up the beloved flagship of the greatest necron in the entire codex. I went "not bad" at this point.

EDIT for content: the necron special character nemesor Zahndrekh is 185 points. this is a lot. However, setting up a Overlord with the same options is 180 points and they are not bad options.
What do you get for those 5 points? the give/remove a special rule special rules. I'm going to roll with him and I guess I will not be alone.

[Cheesegear]

again: Helbrecht get so mad he blows up the beloved flagship of the greatest necron in the entire codex. I went "not bad" at this point.

Nobody is as cool as the Fantabulous Mr. Sliscus. Except maybe Cypher. Now there's a battle I want to see.
And, funnily enough, Finecast Helbrecht is released along with Necrons.


Speaking of; any mention of Cypher or the Star Child in the new Codex? I haven't read it all yet. Still reading Aurelian and only paying attention to the crunch parts of the 'dex for the moment.

[Timberwolf]

For the price of those landspeeders and the points you have left, Talkkno, you can get a pair of fully pimped out Stormravens or, perhaps a better fit, a couple of squads of reasonably tooled up vanguard. My Vanguard come in at about 240 points each and, with the wonders of DoA's synergy with Heroic Intervention, can assault the turn they come down with an excellent chance of being close enough to pull it off, much to the irritation of any opponent.

Actually, on a slightly related note, I was doing just that yesterday. I'm not a big fan of playing DoA lists or assault marines in general (or Razorbacks or Mephiston), but I felt like a change. Anyway, I was playing this Codex marines player who's having a few problems and seems to value my opinion. Only problem is I'm not really good with Codex marines, so I figured I'd ask here. His list gets him murdered each and every time but he plays the same one over and over because he can't think of how to change it. He just can't cope with things like Stormravens (largely because I'm the pretty much the only person hereabouts who plays them effectively) and his inability to handle someone like me turning up with a pair of Talon Dreadnoughts and Death Company is actually rather getting to him, as is what he feels is the underpoweredness of the CSM's unique options. He is also jumping on the Matt Ward hatewagon although his problems are all in his head. He particularly hates my scouts, stormravens and dreadnought list, although that is a far from perfect, utterly beatable army.

He uses (and the problems are in brackets)...

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Terminator Librarian - Epistolary (he never knows what powers to take. I have suggested Vortex of Doom and Gate, but he always goes for smite.)

Hammernators x 5 (these usually get killed and eaten by something unpleasant or shot to death)

Venerable Dread with plasma cannon - this usually does the best due to being largely unkillable

Dread with T/L Lascannon

Tactical squad - Plasma cannon, plasma gun (nothing to say here, aside from they die really easily)

Scout squad - 10 men all with sniper rifles and a missile launcher

Landraider (schizo variant, usually carrying the Hammernators and Librarian. This never fails to underwhelm as it trundles across the board shooting once into 2nd turn melta range)

4 lascannon devastators (these die first)

I have advised him to switch out the landraider for a Crusader because that'll trundle better than a Schizraider, that melta is for winners, that a thunderfire cannon is infinitely superior to a Whirlwind (the only reason he doesn't run one is because he doesn't have the model), to try Sternguard in a drop pod and to start trying the special characters like Vulkan, Shrike and Lysander, which is where CSM's pick up their real edge. He won't touch bikes (I may have to take him to school with my Ravenwing from the looks of it). Has anyone got any bright ideas that I've missed ?

[HalfTangible]

For the price of those landspeeders and the points you have left, Talkkno, you can get a pair of fully pimped out Stormravens or, perhaps a better fit, a couple of squads of reasonably tooled up vanguard. My Vanguard come in at about 240 points each and, with the wonders of DoA's synergy with Heroic Intervention, can assault the turn they come down with an excellent chance of being close enough to pull it off, much to the irritation of any opponent.

Actually, on a slightly related note, I was doing just that yesterday. I'm not a big fan of playing DoA lists or assault marines in general (or Razorbacks or Mephiston), but I felt like a change. Anyway, I was playing this Codex marines player who's having a few problems and seems to value my opinion. Only problem is I'm not really good with Codex marines, so I figured I'd ask here. His list gets him murdered each and every time but he plays the same one over and over because he can't think of how to change it. He just can't cope with things like Stormravens (largely because I'm the pretty much the only person hereabouts who plays them effectively) and his inability to handle someone like me turning up with a pair of Talon Dreadnoughts and Death Company is actually rather getting to him, as is what he feels is the underpoweredness of the CSM's unique options. He is also jumping on the Matt Ward hatewagon although his problems are all in his head. He particularly hates my scouts, stormravens and dreadnought list, although that is a far from perfect, utterly beatable army.

He uses (and the problems are in brackets)...

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Terminator Librarian - Epistolary (he never knows what powers to take. I have suggested Vortex of Doom and Gate, but he always goes for smite.)

Hammernators x 5 (these usually get killed and eaten by something unpleasant or shot to death)

Venerable Dread with plasma cannon - this usually does the best due to being largely unkillable

Dread with T/L Lascannon

Tactical squad - Plasma cannon, plasma gun (nothing to say here, aside from they die really easily)

Scout squad - 10 men all with sniper rifles and a missile launcher

Landraider (schizo variant, usually carrying the Hammernators and Librarian. This never fails to underwhelm as it trundles across the board shooting once into 2nd turn melta range)

4 lascannon devastators (these die first)

I have advised him to switch out the landraider for a Crusader because that'll trundle better than a Schizraider, that melta is for winners, that a thunderfire cannon is infinitely superior to a Whirlwind (the only reason he doesn't run one is because he doesn't have the model), to try Sternguard in a drop pod and to start trying the special characters like Vulkan, Shrike and Lysander, which is where CSM's pick up their real edge. He won't touch bikes (I may have to take him to school with my Ravenwing from the looks of it). Has anyone got any bright ideas that I've missed ?

He's only taken the minimum troop choices =/ If he's losing objective games he could take another tactical squad for some extra firepower/objective capture

(Unless Devastators count as Troops for Codex Marines?)

[Cheesegear]

He is also jumping on the Matt Ward hatewagon although his problems are all in his head.

But Ward wrote Codex Marines...

He particularly hates my scouts, stormravens and dreadnought list, although that is a far from perfect, utterly beatable army.

Seems like the right application of Flamers (and Heavy ones), and the proper application of Melta weapons would do the trick. Y'know what's good for that? He'Stan. Y'know. The guy who is the best thing in the 'dex?

He uses (and the problems are in brackets)...

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Terminator Librarian - Epistolary (he never knows what powers to take. I have suggested Vortex of Doom and Gate, but he always goes for smite.)

NEVER take Smite. One of the most useless powers. It's good for eating Terminators, but does jack against anything else. Two best powers are Null Zone and Force Dome. Force Dome is an Invulnerable save, which means it stops Sanguinary Guard or Dreadnoughts for a few turns.

The only other option worth a damn is Avenger. S5, AP3 ignores cover. But only is real good in a Drop Pod.

Epistolary is usually a waste of points.

Hammernators x 5 (these usually get killed and eaten by something unpleasant or shot to death)

Try Deep Striking.

Venerable Dread with plasma cannon - this usually does the best due to being largely unkillable

Overpriced. Probably better off with an Assault Cannon and Missile Laucher. Plasma Cannons don't really do a lot. More shots is always better.

Dread with T/L Lascannon

Twin-Linked Autocannons all the time.

Tactical squad - Plasma cannon, plasma gun (nothing to say here, aside from they die really easily)

Swap Plasma Cannon for Lascannon. Mech up, son.

Scout squad - 10 men all with sniper rifles and a missile launcher

Get more, or have none. Other option is to have a few in a Storm with a Teleport Homer for Hammernators to Deep Strike to. Also completely messes up DoA.

Landraider (schizo variant, usually carrying the Hammernators and Librarian. This never fails to underwhelm as it trundles across the board shooting once into 2nd turn melta range)

Land Raiders are always underwhelming. They're not for running up the guts of the field. You want to do that, you want a Crusader or Redeemer. Land Raider Normals sit in back and shoot and only drop the unit inside when something threatening gets in Assault Range.

4 lascannon devastators (these die first)

Invest in Tactical Squads, filter the Lascannons into them (with Plasmaguns), put all the Missile Launchers he gets into here.

I have advised him to switch out the landraider for a Crusader because that'll trundle better than a Schizraider

Yes. Although two Land Raiders are always better than one.

that a thunderfire cannon is infinitely superior to a Whirlwind (the only reason he doesn't run one is because he doesn't have the model)

Whirlwinds are junk. At one point they were 'not terrible', but now they are. Thunderfire Cannon activate. Similar to everything else, two (or more) is always better than none.

to try Sternguard in a drop pod

I never leave home without them.

and to start trying the special characters like Vulkan, Shrike and Lysander, which is where CSM's pick up their real edge.

Best special characters, in order;
He'Stan, Kor'Sarro, Shrike, Pedro, Lysander
(I'm fully aware that Lysander is the 'worst', but I love him anyway)
After that you've got Utility Ultramarine characters, who work with any of the above, but, what's stopping you from just picking two from the top list (Lysander goes with anyone)?
Cassius, Sicarius, Tigurius, Calgar

Cassius is just dirt cheap and doesn't even afraid of Power Fists. Chuck him in a Land Raider variant with an Assault unit and watch them go to town.
Sicarius is just handy. Re-rolls for first turn is under-rated.
Tigurius is over-costed for certain. But, build an army around Reserves (Drop Pod He'Stan, or Outflank Kor'Sarro) and he's useful.
Calgar...Lysander does roughly the same, costs less points, and nobody that I've ever seen takes one squad of Honour Guard even when they can.

He won't touch bikes (I may have to take him to school with my Ravenwing from the looks of it).

I'll be the first to point out that Ravenwing is different to Codex Marines. That is, Codex Marines are better at it.

Has anyone got any bright ideas that I've missed ?

Land Speeders. MM/HF if He'Stan. Typhoons if 'nilla. Not many people these days are playing Space Marines without them.
MOAR TROOPS.
Droponclad Dreads with Heavy Flamers aren't nice to Scouts. With He'Stan, you can go Mg/HF and double HKMs which aren't nice to vehicles at all.

His army is 'a bit of everything' with no real focus. That's his problem.
Drop Pods and Reserves keep everything from getting shot at.
Mech keeps everything alive for longer.
Hammernators are underwhelming because Hammernators haven't worked under Codex Marines for a while. Codex Marines are a shooty army and should be played as such.

A serviceable 'Vanilla' Space Marine guide. For reference.

[IthilanorStPete]

Nobody is as cool as the Fantabulous Mr. Sliscus. Except maybe Cypher. Now there's a battle I want to see.
And, funnily enough, Finecast Helbrecht is released along with Necrons.

Agreed, but Helbrecht definitely gets a bump in coolness. And it's nice to see a codex's fluff giving some awesomeness to the faction not in the codex, like the Dark Eldar did with the Marines.

Speaking of; any mention of Cypher or the Star Child in the new Codex? I haven't read it all yet. Still reading Aurelian and only paying attention to the crunch parts of the 'dex for the moment.

Nope.