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2011-12-02, 06:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
^ the blog picked out the exact worst panel of it imo. Everything else is bad enough, but the fact that Melna and other orc were reacting in what would actually be a pretty understandable and if anything the "expected way" for real people to react to it, was only because a demon was putting those thoughts in their minds, is what made it truly awful.
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2011-12-02, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
I firmly believe that one can laugh about everything, but not with everyone. That is to say, even something traumatic, sordid, and awful can be material for humor. But you have to be careful about your audience. Including the one you build for yourself then shock with jarring shifts in your storytelling.
Another thing I believe is that humor is the politeness of despair. When something is too horrible, or too stressful, laughing about it can bring catharsis. I think everybody knows of Swift's Modest Proposal. It's about the Irish people being driven to a situation so horrible that selling their children as foodstuff to their wealthy oppressors could seem like a good idea. It was about a real world situation that really happened (the abject misery, not the decadent cannibalism). It is hilarious. Hilarious and revolting at the same time, but hilarious nonetheless.Hark! An avatar drawn by Kate Beaton!
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2011-12-02, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
Celesto going on a villain murder spree had some narrative reason behind it. It severed some hanging threads (Bret Taggerty and Serk Brakkis) and tied into why Celesto was a danger in the Oracle Hunter arc. And having a morally grey character murder villains to let an innocent hero remain pure can work as a device if done right. Of course Mookie hosed it up in execution, but that's like saying water is wet. The disturbing part of it for me was Mookie's fixation on gore - it's weird the way he uses it.
With Stonewater, my main question is "why?" Why the heck did he write this story?! Mookie claims it's some kind of experiment to see if he could do it, but if so, you would think he'd put extra effort into getting it right instead of putting no thought into it at all. The fact he threw this into something as important to him as his webcomic without thinking through the consequences is mind-boggling.
And all of this, the gore and the "sexy rapist" awfulness, really doesn't help when you know about the existence of those bathtub pictures in his image folder. Goddammit Mookie.
The whole entire arc from that point on hammers home that Stonewater is a "hero" with typical Mookie subtlety. Mookie's approach to writing a rapist hero was to have a sequences of talking heads calling him a rapist then a sequence of talking heads declaring him a hero.
And somehow he still thinks his experiment was a success.
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2011-12-02, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
Well, the reactions to the whole rape story were just as bad as you say, but it just doesn't creep me out as much as Melna falling in love with her rapist. Simply because I can see that just kind of happening because Mookie's terrible at this whole writing thing and just wings it all the time. So, he might have felt that this part of the story where Grench and everybody else deals with the revelation that Stonewater raped Melna would take too long and just made this stupid demon stuff up to get it over with. Or he might seriously think that the characters shouldn't and wouldn't have those feelings and added the demon for some drama - that could just make it the lowest point in the comic's history, but really, I don't know what his motivation was.
But then he went back to the whole thing after a year, which is more than enough time to realize what went wrong in the War in Hell arc, and decided that Melna should fall in love with her rapist.
And that's something I just have no words for. Like, I look at that strip where Melna tells Luna about her feelings for Stonewater and I wonder what kind of idiot you have to be to write that a year after butchering the first attempt at making a "sexy rapist".
Well, there are few things that can't work if done by someone who knows what he's doing, but the feeling I get from the deaths of Taggerty, Brakkis and Amelia and Jacob's abduction of Neilen is that they're dealing out punishment Mookie finds appropriate or at least wants to see happen, except that he at the same time does not want to sully his Sues.
Oh, and Taggerty and Brakkis could have been gotten rid of in other ways. Barnet could have ratted Brakkis out, and who is Taggerty anyway? He could have just stopped appearing in the comic. Same goes for showing that Celesto is dangerous, which after his attempt at magicking Barnet into a vegetable was pretty obvious anyway - it could have been done differently. Yet Mookie insists on killing his villains off in often quite messy ways.
Lastly:
I really need to read that one of those days. I could learn so much...
Also, I agree with everything you said.Last edited by Johnny Blade; 2011-12-02 at 07:36 PM.
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2011-12-02, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
The main difference for me is the Celesto murder sequence has only a few levels of Mookie-Wrongness, while the Stonewater one is an endless cascade of level upon level. Including why that ever seemed like a good idea in the first place, and why it continued to seem like a good idea at every point after that.
I should at some stage dig up that video of Mookie's Heroes and Villains panel and hear what he has to say about the villains. I never made it past the heroes last time. Amongst other things, I'd like to know why he thinks a good villain is one who goes well out of their way to be generically evil and ends up never winning anything ever.
Edit: Oh wow turning on YouTube's transcribe audio makes this Dominikudigan Live - why didn't I think of this before.Last edited by Trazoi; 2011-12-02 at 08:35 PM.
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2011-12-02, 09:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
Just to all the comments previously on "rape as comedy". I think it has a lot to do with intent as well. If anyone has ever watch The Office (US), Steve Carrell's Character often makes terrible racists remarks and jokes to people of said race in his staff. What makes it funny to the audience is the incredulous reactions fro everyone, and the cognitive dissonance of the idea that this man(child) doesn't know that what he just said was terrible. The comment itself is not funny, but its use as an indication of stupidity is. Ditto hands of salvation. Were it a reference to a well-handled take on the subject, those strip slays would be disturbing. Given what they are referencing, and the characters and events in strips where the panel is inserted, it's just a hilarious guffaw at the unbelievable... Mookieness of various situations.
I think that really is what it screams to me: This preceding strip was Mookie-esque in its delivery, and the epitome of Mookieness is of course, the hands of salvation."Sanity is not statistical."
- George Orwell, 1984
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2011-12-02, 09:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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- right behind you
Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
Well, the reactions to the whole rape story were just as bad as you say, but it just doesn't creep me out as much as Melna falling in love with her rapist. Simply because I can see that just kind of happening because Mookie's terrible at this whole writing thing and just wings it all the time. So, he might have felt that this part of the story where Grench and everybody else deals with the revelation that Stonewater raped Melna would take too long and just made this stupid demon stuff up to get it over with. Or he might seriously think that the characters shouldn't and wouldn't have those feelings and added the demon for some drama - that could just make it the lowest point in the comic's history, but really, I don't know what his motivation was.
But then he went back to the whole thing after a year, which is more than enough time to realize what went wrong in the War in Hell arc, and decided that Melna should fall in love with her rapist.
And that's something I just have no words for. Like, I look at that strip where Melna tells Luna about her feelings for Stonewater and I wonder what kind of idiot you have to be to write that a year after butchering the first attempt at making a "sexy rapist".
The whole part where she claims him as her husband, I dont see the problem with this. Why? Because legally speaking, or at least, according to the customs of her people, he IS her husband. Just because jack nicholson went crazy in The Shining doesnt mean he stopped being that womans husband. Even if she hated him, despised the sight of him, and he was a violent bloodthirsty baby raping puppy eating piggart, they are still married.
As for falling in love with him, or at the very least finding him sexy, thats where my ambivalence comes into play. If mookie had managed to pull off the forgiveness part at the start like I described, that leaves a narrow path of possibility there, that she would see the kind of man he has grown into, and maybe even find that man attractive. Im not sure exactly how it could be written to happen and make sense, im not that good of a writer, but at least, unlike mookie, im aware of this and so wouldnt even try. But I think it could be pulled off if handled in exactly the right manner. The potential is there. He is a young, strong, presumably handsome orc, who is showing himself to be a natural leader, and is doing all sorts of good things to try and save his people. Whats not to like? If she truly has forgiven him for the whole rape/forced marriage 10 minutes after her parents were basically murdered thing, then all his good qualities can actually start to show up.
Of course, all this what if, maybe, and perhaps it could happen this way stuff is meaningless since it didnt happen. He shoe horned in garbage that made no sense, then made it worse."Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2011-12-02, 10:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
Thing is, the "sexy racist," thing has been done. It's just that these days we 1) these days it's less okay to glorify rape in the social eye and 2) more things are properly considered rape that once weren't (i.e. a husband raping his wife*). We don't see sexy rapists anymore because our society's ideas about rape are, if not perfect, somewhat better than they once were.
*I almost put, "A person rapes their spouse," so as not to perpetuate the idea that only women can be raped, but putting it in husband/wife terms seems more proper given the historical context.
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2011-12-02, 11:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
I agree. Stonewater's motivation is why I can see other characters not considering him a monster. Heck, given the insanity of human socio-cultural understanding of sexuality, I could even see a culture like the orcs existing somewhere. The premise itself could work, but what messes it all up is that Mookie didn't approach the idea as an exploration of a deeply traumatic experience forced on two innocents, but as a way to try and make a rapist sexy. It seems Mookie understood that, in order for his rapist to seem "sexy", the motivation behind the rape had to be something different than viewing Melna as a sexual object. So, he came up with a scenario where the rape was undertaken for the purpose of "saving" Melna's life.
The whole though process involved in making that story makes it so much creepier."Sanity is not statistical."
- George Orwell, 1984
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2011-12-02, 11:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
Oh, certainly. Really, this is just the Socratic in me asking why this basic justification
Rape is a serious matter. It’s an unbelievable trauma that people in the real world suffer every day. It is not a plot device.
Duly noted
A warning though: don't make me pull out the Spivak Pronouns. I'll do itLead Designer for Oracle Hunter GamesToday a Blog, Tomorrow a Business!
~ Awesome Avatar by the phantastic Phase ~Spoiler
Elflad
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2011-12-03, 12:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
Not really. Not with Dominic Deegan even if it was a more sensitive author. The only way it works it by treating the subject matter with the emotional weight it deserves, and that isn't going to happen in a webcomic about bad puns and fishes on the head.
It's exactly the same deal behind all that CAD banart where they replace the fourth panel of every single wacky videogame strip with the one from the miscarriage comic.
Also: I finished watching the second video of Mookie's panel (skipped rewatching the first), and cripes was it worthless. Over eight minutes for one single point: "have confrontations where the hero wins using their intellect rather than brute force, because it's more interesting." That's it. He didn't even explain why it's more interesting or even go into how to do it other than be like Asimov and revise your work twenty times (funniest snippet of the video). The rest of the eight minutes was him acting out action sequences and raving about the Foundation series and Fallout 3.
Admittedly he's passionate about what he's saying for someone rambling about nothing for eight minutes. But I wouldn't have been able to slog through it if not for the hilarious Dominikudigan Live auto-transcription.
He didn't get to the villains in part 2.Last edited by Trazoi; 2011-12-03 at 12:11 AM.
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2011-12-03, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2011
Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
This really annoys me. He wasn't telling them how to write, he was telling them what to write. That's not how writing advice works, Mookie!
Though this was the same guy who told them to write about "working-class heroes," whatever that means. Again, that's telling them what to do, rather than how to do what they want to do. You guys are right. His panels are terrible.
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2011-12-03, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
But that was much earlier in the series. I mean, while Mookie does insert lame puns in every so often, I think he does want to try for dramatic, serious storylines, much more than CAD ever has. Admittedly, this was the same arc that began with a magic rock concert. But I don't think I can fault Mookie for trying to do a more intense storyline. Had Mookie not been the author, the treatment of the situation could have been much better, and much more emotionally poignant than what it was. I mean, looking at Erfworld or OotS (and I'm sure I could think of more), there are plenty of works that can mesh humour and drama well. That Mookie sucks at it doesn't mean that the premise itself can't work.
I feel much the same for Sigfried's death. If everything that followed it (Ie. Evil Siggy in Hell) hadn't, and if I had never known Mookie's logic, I would consider Sigfried's death to be one of the best moments in the comic. Tarnished but repentant soul pulled down to hell by the machinations of a demon lord, to spite the main hero. That's a good premise.
I also find it funny, on a total side not, that Melna's dislike of Stonewater in the LfW strip comes from his association with Bulgak. Apparently, that was demonic influence too, despite being totally correct in the end.
Also: I finished watching the second video of Mookie's panel (skipped rewatching the first), and cripes was it worthless. Over eight minutes for one single point: "have confrontations where the hero wins using their intellect rather than brute force, because it's more interesting." That's it. He didn't even explain why it's more interesting or even go into how to do it other than be like Asimov and revise your work twenty times (funniest snippet of the video). The rest of the eight minutes was him acting out action sequences and raving about the Foundation series and Fallout 3.
Admittedly he's passionate about what he's saying for someone rambling about nothing for eight minutes. But I wouldn't have been able to slog through it if not for the hilarious Dominikudigan Live auto-transcription.
He didn't get to the villains in part 2.psionic explosionsintelligence. It is pretty funny if you think about it though, because apparently Mookie believes that brains are better than brawn, and shows it via brute force brain attacks, rather than clever planning and critical thinking.
Also, Mookie is an Asimov fan. Awww, man, now I feel dirty. Why must Mookie taint otherwise good things?Last edited by colonelslime; 2011-12-03 at 12:53 AM.
"Sanity is not statistical."
- George Orwell, 1984
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2011-12-03, 12:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
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2011-12-03, 01:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
Bingo. The tone in DD is all over the place.
I also find it funny, on a total side not, that Melna's dislike of Stonewater in the LfW strip comes from his association with Bulgak. Apparently, that was demonic influence too, despite being totally correct in the end.
I have to use the euphamism because geez this is twisted to type even in mockery.
C'mon Trazoi. The reason why is because only Jocks solve their problems with physical violence. Real heroes solve it withpsionic explosionsintelligence.
Spoiler
(I'll grant Mookie this: he is passionate and that alone does make him somewhat entertaining to watch. He'd be a decent speaker if he had something to say rather than nerdy rambling.)
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2011-12-03, 01:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
I must say I like the line "beautiful in paperwork circle of life". Facebath's Lion King?
Also, he does look quite spirited in the screencaps. Like, manic almost. Imagine what he could do if he actually knew how to write."Sanity is not statistical."
- George Orwell, 1984
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2011-12-03, 01:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-12-03, 02:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
I CAN fault Mookie for "Trying something more dramatic". Thats how hacks work.
"Hmmmm. Need more drama.....Add a rape scene!"
Thats awful and only completely oblivious hacks do this type of stuff! Especially if your putting it into a comedy comic!
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2011-12-03, 03:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
Mookie really gets into it. He'd be a good stand-up comedian if he knew how to tell a joke.
YouTube's Transcribe Audio Beta option. It rarely gets anything right so I presume it's there for added hilarity.
And if Mookie was going for Stonewater redeeming past deeds with Melna's backstory, it would have worked much better if Stonewater was responsible for the death of Melna's parents. There's plenty of ways to fit that into a non-stupid orc society where it's partly Stonewater's fault but still understandable, Melna ends up running to the Crone, and Stonewater ends up exiled. But since the whole point was for Mookie to throw in a rape, we got the whole mess we did.
Mookie even managed to throw in Rachel raping Dominic into that arc for laughs, making the whole exercise even more failtastic.
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2011-12-03, 05:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
Mookie's Heroes and Villains, Part 3:
"This is a bit of advice about what I want give about writing romance. I love romance, the gooey and sappier the better. ... But don't write the hero's girlfriend."
"Make sure the love interest, when they're by themselves, can hold the spotlight. Because, I don't know about you, I hate it when I hear this kind of dialog: I was nothing before I met him. He taught me - I can hear you guys groaning already - He taught me so much about being myself I don't know what I do without him. (sarcastic) Don't you just love that?"
"Do you feel happy for them? Do you feel happy inside? No! You want to kick them in the face!"
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2011-12-03, 05:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
Mookie is an alien from outer space. There is no other reason for this.
I may not notice my own mistakes, but when I get them brought up to me I admit and change them.
Mookie....I fear you....Such power of ignorace.....It scares me.
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2011-12-03, 05:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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2011-12-03, 09:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
I think it's about the current Skin Horse story arc.
Hark! An avatar drawn by Kate Beaton!
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2011-12-03, 09:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
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- Virginia, USA
Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
Bonus side note: wasn't Dom have a tremendous hate-on for Bulgak for that entire arc? Yes, yes he did.
Dominic Deegan: probably possessed by demons and that's why he hates demons I guess.Who makes fabulous avatars? MEMNARCH makes fabulous avatars!
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2011-12-03, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
That actually made the most sense out of everything in the entire story. He can see the demonic taint, see he is an infernomancer, virtually everything bad that had happened in the story was either directly caused by, or connected to infernomancers. Infernomancers arent like necromancers, as we learn on the trip around the world, it isnt a good school that was twisted for evil, its an evil school that twists any attempts to use it for good, because its powered entirely by entities of pure evil and corruption! Why SHOULDNT Dom have a massive hard on of hatred for any infernomancer he sees? Hell, the only reason bulgak even had his redemption is because he was dead and no longer under the control of the demon he sold his soul to.
Last edited by Traab; 2011-12-03 at 09:59 AM.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2011-12-03, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
Luna Travoria: Suicidally depressed until she met Dominic, who gave her a sense of worth. She can do stuff without Dominic, but she often needs other men's help anyway, whereas Dominic can do everything by himself. The only time she ever has a personality is when she's with Dominic, and then her only personality trait is, "act stupid and ask a lot of questions so that Dominic can answer them and look smart."
The problem is that Mookie relies solely on dialogue to convey information. He has a bunch of characters talk about how smart and independent Luna is, and thinks that's enough, without even bothering to think about the implications of his characters' actions.Last edited by Mr. McGician; 2011-12-03 at 10:16 AM.
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2011-12-03, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
Spivak pronouns are awesome and should be used more. Try writing about a genderless being with singular they and you end up with a lot of clunky and unnatural sounding sentences.
It's a good writing exercise to try.
I really should get to Skin Horse one of these decades.
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2011-12-03, 11:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
My compiled Iron Chef stuff!
~ Gay all day, queer all year ~
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2011-12-03, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
I use the singular they all the time. I've had arguments with profs over its application. It starts sounding more natural after you get used to it, certainly more natural than e and eir ever will, for me anyway.
Also:
heheheheheHAHAHAHAHAHhehehehehehe
Too easy. How oblivious can one person be?
At least we now have his endorsement to want to kick Luna in the face.Last edited by colonelslime; 2011-12-03 at 01:02 PM.
"Sanity is not statistical."
- George Orwell, 1984
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2011-12-03, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLI: No Morals! No Quarter! All Brutal!
Who makes fabulous avatars? MEMNARCH makes fabulous avatars!