Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"

[ZeltArruin]

So, I could assemble the Blood Claws in the Battleforce as Grey Hunters?

You won't be able to tell where Blood Claws end and Grey Hunters begin. Seriously. Except for the heads, which you get more than enough of to make 20 Grey hunters and 5 scouts with, the crazy Blood Claw hair is pretty noticeable.

[Wraith]

Hey, Wraith is posting. Surely...

[Stuff]

...got done?

Well, since you both asked nicely....

It's not as though the new FAQ has made any significantly important changes, that I can see; We're still outdoing Deathwing with Grey Knights and Ravenwing with Vanilla Marines.

[Teln]

Even the higher ranks sport crazy hair at times--check out Ragnar and the Grey Hunter on page 80.

[Cheesegear]

Dark Angels, an assessment. Since a foot and a little bit of a backpack was seen about a week ago, there are a couple of people jumping on the Dark Angels bandwagon 'round the internet, for this author, IRL, people are just buying up DA models (with no proof to come of anything) while they can and wanting to try them out at least. So...

Their Librarians are bad. Being only Leadership 9, you're psyker defense isn't as potent as other Marines' is. Also, your powers suck and you're still Ld9.

Dreadnoughts cost extra points, Company Veterans are not Sternguard in the slightest and Scouts as Elites!? What? The +1 WS/BS makes them Elite? Is that it? Brilliant. Rifles cost even more points.

Assault Squads cost extra for no reason, and can't even take Flamers. Devastators are ludicrously expensive and both Predators and Vindicators are +10 points apiece for no particular reason.

Trying to be Codex Marines, the only thing that Dark Angels have going for them, is Land Speeder Typhoons for 75 Points. That's it. For a 'standard' army, there isn't anything that Dark Angels can do that Space Marines can't do better.
...Except for Land Speeder Spam (only one Land Speeder per squad can take a 'Phoon, bad) which is nowhere near as good as it sounds.

What Dark Angels can do, is spam these squads;

Tactical Squad (x5) - 180 Points
Meltagun
+ Razorback; Twin-Linked Lascannon

If this isn't exactly what you want, don't use Tactical Squads as Troops because every other Marine Codex is better for them.
Does having a Meltagun make up for not being a Plaserback? Not really. And, if the above squad is what you want to do; Have you looked at the Blood Angels Codex yet?

So, what can Dark Angels actually do?

Deathwing/Belial
Belial is a tax. A horrible, horrible tax. However, he is cheap and that counts for something. As for Deathwing, 5 guys with a 3+ Invulnerable and a Cyclone Missile Launcher for 235 Points is a steal. Grey Knights are not better than this. Belial is cheap. Deathwing is cheap. Take as many as you can. Then when you've got spare points, point in some Typhoons. Maybe throw in a 100 point Librarian for the chance to stop powers.

Thunder Hammer and Storm Shields, and a Cyclone Missile Launcher is the only way to run Deathwing. Maybe a Chainfist. Unless you're exceptionally good at converting or have access to a Bitz Box/Store, Deathwing can burn the wallet pretty fast unless you have plans for 5 out of every 10 Terminators that you wont use. You don't have to run TH/SS+CML, but if you don't, you'll only be a pretender to the throne and you'll be wondering why your Deathwing aren't performing as well as the Internet says they do.

Ravenwing/Sammael
Sammael is 205 points. You can have him running around in a Jetbike, or have him in a Land Raider Lite. Honestly, if you still think Land Raiders are the Bee's Knees, then good for you. The Jetbike option is fairly terrible. But do not overestimate the Land Speeder. It dishes out a lot of damage (to Infantry...) but, being a vehicle, one shot is all it takes to kill it.

Compared to
Codex Captain - 175 Points
Relic Blade, Combi-Melta, Bike

You can swap the Combi-Melta for a Storm Shield if you want. You still save points.

As for Troops;

Ravenwing (x3) - 190 Points
x2 Meltaguns
+ Attack Bike

More expensive than any Razorback squad, and remember than Sammael is expensive to begin with. Ravenwing are Fearless. On small units, this is generally good. But, Combat Tactics is far better, since if you lose that badly, you end up Fearless anyway. You're also paying points for Teleport Homers that you probably aren't using until around the 1500+ point mark.

Codex Bike Squad (x4) - 185 Points
x2 Meltaguns
+ Attack Bike

Less points, for more models. You can't explain that! You lose Fearless in exchange for Combat Tactics, and you aren't paying points for Teleport Homers you aren't using.

Now, remember the weakness of Thunderwolf Lists? Yes. That's right. BUILDINGS. Bike armies have the exact same weakness. When you ride a Bike you forget how to climb trees.

Codex Marines have Scouts to sit at home and Score. Or Sternguard/Flamer Squads in Drop Pods to care of cover in the opponent's DZ. Dark Angels...Have Tactical Squads. Now, don't forget, Codex Marines can take those too! And in any combination that's the same as the Dark Angels' but cheaper! Except for the special weapon in a 5-man squad. But are you really trusting your home objective to a minimum 5-man squad?


In short, anything Dark Angels can do, Space Marines can do better. And if they can't, Blood Angels can. Currently, the only reason to play Dark Angels is for Deathwing, and for the truly competitive, there's only one build.

[Squark]

A question on battleforces in general. If a battleforce lists the specific configuration of a model (from a kit with multiple configurations, like how a Space Wolves Pack can be configured as blood claws, grey hunters, or Wolf Guard or how Lychguard and Triarch Praetorians can be assembled with the same kit), Is the entire sprue included, or just the parts needed to make the specific configuration.


For instance, Does the Space Wolves Battleforce contain essentially 2 Space Wolves Packs, a Drop Pod, and a scouts box? Or are some of the bits that would be used exclusively on Wolf Guard omitted?

[BoSheck]

A question on battleforces in general. If a battleforce lists the specific configuration of a model (from a kit with multiple configurations, like how a Space Wolves Pack can be configured as blood claws, grey hunters, or Wolf Guard or how Lychguard and Triarch Praetorians can be assembled with the same kit), Is the entire sprue included, or just the parts needed to make the specific configuration.


For instance, Does the Space Wolves Battleforce contain essentially 2 Space Wolves Packs, a Drop Pod, and a scouts box? Or are some of the bits that would be used exclusively on Wolf Guard omitted?

Erm. If you haven't read the codex, this is probably less clear, but Wolf Guard have a TON of wargear options. Literally an entire page. They range from pistol/ccw to suiting up as Terminators with assault cannons or cyclone missile launcher. They also get their special close combat weapons at a discount--the battleforce comes with enough power weapons and fists to do that.
But you'll be able to make what you need out of the stuff included in the battleforce. Get ready to buy A LOT of meltaguns. Combi meltas on wolfguard. Meltas on Grey Hunters. The battleforce comes with some plasmaguns, which are nice to have, but melta on forward units for sure.

[LeSwordfish]

So, i was thinking of creating a Coteaz henchmen-spam army, 1000-1500 points. Anyone got any advice?

I'd love to include an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor, and a Vindicare Assassin. If people say that they suck, i'll drop them, but i'd love to have them in. I have a fair few Sisters of battle, for a squad or so of Power Armour Henchmen, and a ton of imperial guardsmen for other stuff, plus plenty of esoteric stuff to throw in. Any advice?

Preliminary plans suggest anti-tank is an issue. I got to about 1000 points, 50-odd models, and anti-tank was pretty much limited to three melta, two plasma, a multi-melta and the vindicare.

For instance, Does the Space Wolves Battleforce contain essentially 2 Space Wolves Packs, a Drop Pod, and a scouts box? Or are some of the bits that would be used exclusively on Wolf Guard omitted?

I'm hesitant to say 100% either way. But my experience is that it's closer to the former. It's all based around whole sprues.

[Tome]

I'd love to include an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor, and a Vindicare Assassin. If people say that they suck, i'll drop them, but i'd love to have them in. I have a fair few Sisters of battle, for a squad or so of Power Armour Henchmen, and a ton of imperial guardsmen for other stuff, plus plenty of esoteric stuff to throw in. Any advice?

Vindicare Assassins are good, probably the best of the four assassins. They go excellently with a Techmarine for the 2+ Cover save.

Inquisitors are also good, and best when they're cheap. However, Hereticus Inquisitors are the worst of the three. Xenos are the best (Hammerhand+Rad Grenades), followed by Malleus (Terminator Armour+Psycannon).

Power Armour Acolytes are bad, which is to say, they're a bit of a trap. Keep them cheap and take more bodies, use Crusaders if you want an improved save in the squad.

Cheesegear wrote up a fairly in-depth summary of the codex that you should probably read.

Preliminary plans suggest anti-tank is an issue. I got to about 1000 points, 50-odd models, and anti-tank was pretty much limited to three melta, two plasma, a multi-melta and the vindicare.

Long-ranged anti-tank in the GK codex is Vindicares, Ordo Xenos Inquisitors with Conversion Beamers, Jokaero Weaponsmiths and Psyrifleman Dreadnoughts. Close range is Psycannons on everything that can take them and 3x Warrior Acolytes W/Meltaguns in a Chimera. If you need more anti-tank, find some room for some of those options.

[Tome]

I'd love to include an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor, and a Vindicare Assassin. If people say that they suck, i'll drop them, but i'd love to have them in. I have a fair few Sisters of battle, for a squad or so of Power Armour Henchmen, and a ton of imperial guardsmen for other stuff, plus plenty of esoteric stuff to throw in. Any advice?

Vindicare Assassins are good, probably the best of the four assassins. They go excellently with a Techmarine for the 2+ Cover save.

Inquisitors are also good, and best when they're cheap. However, Hereticus Inquisitors are the worst of the three. Xenos are the best (Hammerhand+Rad Grenades), followed by Malleus (Terminator Armour+Psycannon).

Power Armour Acolytes are bad, which is to say, they're a bit of a trap. Keep them cheap and take more bodies, use Crusaders if you want an improved save in the squad.

Cheesegear wrote up a fairly in-depth summary of the codex that you should probably read, there's a link in the first post.

Preliminary plans suggest anti-tank is an issue. I got to about 1000 points, 50-odd models, and anti-tank was pretty much limited to three melta, two plasma, a multi-melta and the vindicare.

Long-ranged anti-tank in the GK codex is Vindicares, Ordo Xenos Inquisitors with Conversion Beamers, Jokaero Weaponsmiths and Psyrifleman Dreadnoughts. Close range is Psycannons on everything that can take them and 3x Warrior Acolytes W/Meltaguns in a Chimera. If you need more anti-tank, find some room for some of those options.

[LeSwordfish]

Vindicare Assassins are good, probably the best of the four assassins. They go excellently with a Techmarine for the 2+ Cover save.

Techmarine well worth considering then. Particularly if i take several dreadnoughts.

Inquisitors are also good, and best when they're cheap. However, Hereticus Inquisitors are the worst of the three. Xenos are the best (Hammerhand+Rad Grenades), followed by Malleus (Terminator Armour+Psycannon).

Xenos is pretty cool with me, particularly if the power armour acolytes should be dropped. I might just paint up some SM as Deathwatch, and use counts-as.

Is power armour on an inquisitor a good use of points? Is the Psyker option, or a convertion beamer worth taking?

Power Armour Acolytes are bad, which is to say, they're a bit of a trap. Keep them cheap and take more bodies, use Crusaders if you want an improved save in the squad.

So what about standard squads of, say, 3 crusaders, 3 special weapons, and 4 with boltguns? Is Carapace armour worth it? I've come from playing Imperial Guard, so i may be overvaluing armour saves. I don't get to make them often.

Long-ranged anti-tank in the GK codex is Vindicares, Ordo Xenos Inquisitors with Conversion Beamers, Jokaero Weaponsmiths and Psyrifleman Dreadnoughts. Close range is Psycannons on everything that can take them and 3x Warrior Acolytes W/Meltaguns in a Chimera. If you need more anti-tank, find some room for some of those options.

Check, possibly check, yeah sure (but my wallet just winced), ditto, i'll probably buy some standard GK for heavy stuff, and i knew i should buy chimeras.

Part of the reason i'm doing this Coteaz-henchmen thing is to reuse old models. But IIRC, this thread is very damn-the-budget, so i'm probably gonna get more stuff.

[Tome]

Techmarine well worth considering then. Particularly if i take several dreadnoughts.

Techmarines are amazing, but not for their repair abilities. Techmarines get taken for the Servo-Harness and grenades.

Xenos is pretty cool with me, particularly if the power armour acolytes should be dropped. I might just paint up some SM as Deathwatch, and use counts-as.

Is power armour on an inquisitor a good use of points? Is the Psyker option, or a convertion beamer worth taking?

Power armour on an Inquisitor depends on how you're using them. If they're going to be getting into close combat, then sure. If not, it's probably a bit of a waste.

The Psyker option is great on Xenos Inquisitors who also have Rad Grenades (and possibly Psychotrokes, according to personal preference). Much like a Techmarine can, these guys basically act as a massive force multiplier for whatever unit you attach them to, letting them Wound on 2's against anything T5 or less. Works great with either Purifiers, Terminators or Death Cult Assassins. The other Psyker option involves having two Inquisitors with Psychic Communion and lots of Servo-Skulls in order to make Deep-Striking work better - not so great for Henchman armies.

A Conversion Beamer is fine on a cheap, shooty Inquisitor who'll be staying suitable far away from the front-lines. Works best with Psychic Communion.

So what about standard squads of, say, 3 crusaders, 3 special weapons, and 4 with boltguns? Is Carapace armour worth it? I've come from playing Imperial Guard, so i may be overvaluing armour saves. I don't get to make them often.

The proposed squad is workable.

Carapace armour probably isn't worth it. Doubling the cost of the model for a 4+ save? Not good value when you should be in 4+ cover anyway. If you want shooty infantry with a decent save, try a Strike Squad. Acolytes work best when they're cheap. Ten Boltguns for 50 points is pretty good, twelve Storm Bolters for 84 is even better.

Check, possibly check, yeah sure (but my wallet just winced), ditto, i'll probably buy some standard GK for heavy stuff, and i knew i should buy chimeras.

Don't feel the need to have all of those options though, just a few of them should be enough.

And Rhinos are also workable - Henchmen can take those as well.

Part of the reason i'm doing this Coteaz-henchmen thing is to reuse old models. But IIRC, this thread is very damn-the-budget, so i'm probably gonna get more stuff.

If you want suggestions to fit the models you have, maybe give us a list of what models you have available?

[Cheesegear]

But IIRC, this thread is very damn-the-budget

Well, not really. The hobby itself is pretty Damn-the-budget. Where possible, I know I always try to include the fact that some options are expensive (just up-thread with Long Fangs and Thunderwolves). But, the simple fact is that you're playing Grey Knights. And a Henchman-band to boot, where all the models come in blisters. There's not a lot you can do about the budget when you want to make an army like that.

[Silus]

Hey, starting a Guard army. I think I have the Support and Heavy weapons all sorted out (Snipers (lol Toughness), Flamers, Grenade Launchers, Autocannons and Missile Launchers) for the Troops and the Fast Attack (Scout Sentinels with Autocannons and Missile Launchers and a whole mess of Hellhounds, one squadron with Meltacannons, the other with Inferno Cannons). I've no idea what do do for the Heavy Support though.

It's been suggested that I take a squadron of Colossus for the S6 AP3 Ordinance Barrage 1, Large Blast cannon, though the ordinance scatter rules kinda turn me off. Was originally considering a squadron of Vanquisher (S8 AP2 Heavy 1) and Punisher (S5 AP- Heavy 20) Leman Russes (The Punishers would be paired up with some Sniper Rifle Support Weapon teams for pinning and mowing down of troops).

The general goal is a highly mobile force that has the potential to bottleneck and lock down any areas they need to. Suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

This song best illustrates the feel I want for my army.

[Renegade Paladin]

You're going about it all wrong. Sniper weapons are terrible and will always let you down unless you field them en masse, which you can't do without ratlings. My grenade launchers haven't seen use in ages, but that's mainly because of my Marine-heavy metagame; they're no use against anything with 3+ or better armor. Hellhounds are solid, as are Sentinels if played carefully, but Vanquishers are really not that impressive and Punishers are horrible.

If you want a highly mobile force, you need Chimeras. Right now your build as proposed doesn't have a way to rapidly move scoring units where you need them. Footslogging Guard is dead Guard the instant they have to move out of cover. I'd also reconsider your take on scattering; the scatter dice provide a 1/3 chance to hit regardless, and subtracting your BS from the scatter means you'll hit your target point or come close enough that the template will be over it anyway a good chunk of the time even when you roll an arrow. If you want my advice for heavy support, I go with Basilisks and basic Leman Russ Battle Tanks, the former because there's no Colossus model and the option to use direct fire is handy and the latter because it's the original and best. S8-9 AP3 ordnance ruins Marines' entire day, and the ability to throw lots of it around is part of what makes Guard so good. Of course, their range means they can afford to be pretty much the opposite of mobile, since they can hit any point on the table from anywhere else on the table. If you want your vehicles in the enemy's face, I'd pick up a Demolisher to follow up your Hellhounds. S10 AP2 ordnance ruins anybody's day; the only drawback is that you have to get close enough to get assaulted by scary things with power fists to deliver it.

Also, needs more lascannon.

[Cheesegear]

Page 49? Must be time for a Battle Report.

One Of Those Days.

Space Marines

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Librarian with Avenger and Null Zone - 100 Points
TLAC Dreadnought - 125 Points
TLAC Dreadnought - 125 Points
Tactical Squad (x5) in Plaserback - 165 Points
Tactical Squad (x5) in Plaserback - 165 Points
Scout Squad (x10) with Rifles and Missile Launcher - 150 Points
Land Speeder Typhoon - 90 Points
Land Speeder Typhoon - 90 Points
Predator with Lascannon Sponsons - 120 Points
Predator with Lascannon Sponsons - 120 Points

Total: 1250 Pointsp

vs. Blood Angels (approximation)

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Gabriel Seth
Librarian - Shield and Fear
Assault Squad (x5) in Razorback with Assault Cannons
Assault Squad (x5) in Razorback with Assault Cannons
Baal Predator with Assault Cannons and Heavy Bolters
Baal Predator with Assault Cannons and Heavy Bolters
Baal Predator with Flamestorm Cannon and Heavy Flamer
Vindicator

Steak and Veg

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Roll for Deployment, Spearhead and Capture and Control. Fair enough. Roll for first, he rolls a '6', I roll a '1'. I can just tell, in my bones, that this is going to be one of those games.

He deploys two Baals on his flank, his two Razorbacks smack bang in the middle behind the tower in the middle of the board and deploys his Vindicator behind a building on his other flank and declares that his Predator with all the Flamers is Outflanking.

I deploy my Predators in front - which I would later regret, and I put both Razorbacks on my objective, I put both Dreadnoughts on my flank to prepare for those two Baal Predators coming my way and I put my Typhoons behind the building to go where they need to depending on what he does with his extremely mobile force. And I declare my Scouts are Infiltrating.

I Combat Squad my Scouts and put half the building on my right, with the Missile Launcher to get SA on all his vehicles. And I deploy my other half in a building in my DZ. I know, putting stuff in your own DZ anyway when Infiltrating is lame, but sometimes you just do it.

His list is a wall of Fast AV13 that makes me cry. My list is a parking lot that waits for him to come forward while peppering with anti-tank fire that makes him cry.

Turn 1
He Scouts his Predators forwards, and then makes another move and fires off both Assault Cannons at one of my Predators. Wrecked on the first turn. While his Razorbacks split off and go either side of the building, shooting their loads at each my own Razorbacks dealing no damage. His Vindicator comes around from the side of the building and lobs a shell at my Scouts dealing no damage because 5" Scatters are fun.

One of my Land Speeders shoots off down the board an unloads Missiles into the Vindicator. Can't shoot. Good enough on a Vindicator. My Dreads pepper one of the Baals with their Autocannons. But, Autocannons need 6s to glance AV13 and it's kind of annoying. I manage to Weapon Destroy his Assault Cannons. I shoot his Razorbacks with my Lascannons on my Razorbacks. I Immobilise one and Weapon Destroy another set of Ass Cannons. My Scouts start shooting off pot-shots at Rear Armours now that the Razorbacks have moved Forwards the other can't shoot.

Turn 2
His Baal Predator rolls for Reserves, comes in, and then comes on exactly where it needs to be and manages to clip both a Land Speeder and a Predator in the Rear Armour. The Predator gets Wrecked from the Flamestorm Cannon and somehow both Heavy Flamer templates are also able to hit the Land Speeder, which only gets Immobilised.
The Baal Predators now in a decent position start unloading Dakka into my Dreadnoughts, convieniently forgetting that Heavy Bolters can't touch AV12. Nothing happens. While Assault Cannons like to claim to be better than Assault Cannons all the time, they still need 6s to do anything to AV12 at all. And so nothing happens.
The Immobilised and Can't Shoot Razorback drops it's load and sends the Librarian and his squad Running back into their deployment zone to their objective. While the Razorback with no weapons rolls forwards and drops Gabriel Seth and a Meltagun. The Meltagun Wrecks my Razorback with Librarian and his friends inside, and Seth kind of scratches his head and he just stands there looking at a De-Meched squad that he can't eat.

My Land Speeder in the middle of the board flies around again and throws Missiles into the Immobilised Razorback, Destroying it. One of my Dreadnought turns around and gets into position to shoot the Flamestorm Baal in the Side Armour and Destroys it. While the other Dread shoots and Assaults the Baal Predators that didn't move Wrecking it. My Immobilised Land Speeder just happens to be in a decent position and starts shooting Missiles at the Front Armour of the second Baal Predator that only has Heavy Bolters now.
My Librarian drops an Avenger Template killing all the Marines except for Seth and the Sergeant. While the squad Rapid Fires their Bolters killing the Sergeant and taking two Wounds from Seth. So close.

Turn 3
The Vindicator pops 'round the side of the building and turns my Land Speeder into a fine powder. And the Librarian throws out Fear the Darkness at my Scout squad in the middle of the board. It does nothing.
The Baal Predator with the Heavy Bolters veers around and Destroys my Razorback, De-Meching my other squad while killing two of the Marines inside just because. S3 hit, 3+ save? Kills two. Sigh.

Gabriel snipes a Marine in the head with his Pistol and charges the Librarian going into a Whirlwind of Gore (big mistake, I'd prefer to have the 5 attacks), and he drops two more Marines. My Librarian and squad attack back. My Librarian scores a wound...And he saves. I lose by 2. Fantastic. I choose to fail my check and I get caught to take another two wounds which I save. Nice.

My Dreadnought trundles forwards and shoots the Vindicator, Weapon Destroying the Battle Cannon and my second Dread tries to take care of the Baal Predator in my own DZ, and can't, even trying to Assault it. My squad of Marines kind of huddle behind the building on my objective. My Scouts fire off a couple of shots at the Librarian and his squad doing minimal damage (one kill is still damage). Seth throws 4 attacks at my Librarian 2s to Wound and 6s to kill. And if I fail a save I'm dead.
Seth failed to realise that Ultionis was an Imperial Fist and fencing was almost literally in his blood. Seth rolled no 6s and and Ultionis passed all his armour saves. I love this guy.

Ultionis, on the other hand, only has to Score one wound. And he does so. But Seth passes his Invulnerable and I force him to re-roll...Except then I realise that I totally forgot to cast Null Zone in my Shooting Phase. Really!? Cheesegear, I am disappoint.

Turn 4
His Vindicator, now with no weapon, says "It's clobberin' time!" and speeds exactly 18" () at my Dread. 18/3 = S6 + FA13 = S9 +1 Tank = S10 hit on my Dread. Who needs Cannons? My Dread is Wrecked.
The Librarian chucks out Fear the Darkness at the Scouts with Missile Launcher again. And they fail and run down the building that they're in.

His Baal Predator in my DZ throws 6 Heavy Bolter shots into my Land Speeder. It gets Immobilised (again), a Weapon Destroyed, and a Wrecked. From 6 shots that needed 5s to glance? Sigh.

My Scouts, now without the height advantage can't see anything, and try to climb back up the ruins. Except moving in Ruins is a pain in the arse and they can't make it. My Dreadnought tries to shoot down the Baal Predator and fails. Then Assaults it making it unable to shoot.

Ultionis chucks out a Null Zone this time and rolls an 11. FML.
Gabriel Seth directs his attack at the squad and kills both of the remaining Marines in a shower of red mist as he weapon tears them apart. Ultionis hits back, Scoring two wounds this time, surely with a 4+ save, that's only a 50% success and surely he'll die now? Nope. He rolls both saves and lives. I lose by two again. So I roll Morale and pass. Gabriel Seth can not be allowed to move over to my objective and contest it.

Turn 5
The Baal Predator Tank Shocks me off the objective (only 5"). I pass and due to the bulk of the tank I'm no longer in range of my objective. Stercus, stercus, stercus.

Gabriel Seth at this point is thoroughly enraged at this point. I just have to fail one save or he needs to roll a 6 To Wound and I'm dead. Neither of those things happen, and Ultionis can not leave this mission with his duty undone. And become a failure as an Imerperial Fist forever. He'd killed Swarmlord in single combat and Gabriel was nothing compared to him. 3 hits. 2 Wounds. 1 Failed save. Victory! As Ultionis cleaved the head off of Seth, the abomination to Sanguinius. Sanguinius was one of Dorn's closest allies, dying to save the Emperor. To see Sanguinius' progeny devolved to Flesh Tearers was an abhorrent accident that needed to be put right.

The Dreadnought and the Tactical Squad needed to break that tank. Throwing Grenades and S6 attacks the Baal Predator was broken in half. Hooray.

We rolled for Turn 6, didn't happen.

TL;DR

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Result 1-1. My DZ was a mass of ruined vehicles (I think five, who wants to count?), one squad of Tactical Marines and a Librarian and two squads of Scouts on the board. His DZ was a squad of Assault Marines and a Librarian.

So, what happened? I mean, aside from dice rolls, I don't know what I could have done differently. I just can't deal with stuff on his side of the board if it ever gets out of LoS. At 1250, I don't really have a lot of options (1750 is a different list which can deal with a lot of things). Marines don't really have anything that can Barrage, except for Whirlwinds which are a joke. But I think that's going to be what it actually might take?

A wall of AV13 is a terrible thing to face. Missiles and Autcannons just don't cut it. Need more Lascannons (that don't get killed in the first turn). If I drop a Dreadnought for a Whirlwind, I can swap the Scouts into another Plaserback and start giving my Sergeants Combi-Weapons.

B...But...WHIRLWINDS!!!??? Say it ain't so!

[Silus]

@ Snipers: Well thank God I've not decided on what I wanna do with my Elite slots. I would have gone with Stormtroopers, but the lack of plastic models...well...yeah.

@ Punishers: Would they be more situational tanks than anything? Like vs 'Nids or something?

@ Chimeras: I plan on getting enough to make my troops mobile (All save for the Ratlings I think). Only problems are the $ cost and the current lack of troops. Have 1 Vet Squad and like 5/6 of a pair of Special Weapons squads, and that's including the troops I cought yesterday and the ones that I have from earlier.

@ Tanks: What would your opinion be on the Exterminator tanks (With the Twin Linked Autocannons)? Or, if I'm going for variant Russes, should I just go for the Executioner?

@ Lascannons: Is there any way to field them effectively without using up several Heavy Weapons Squad slots (I realize that I can field up to ~30 squads of 3 if I max out my troops slots for Infantry Platoons, but still)? *Checks Codex* Well I could turn the Russ Squadrons into tank hunting tanks with Lascannons and Multimeltas...

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, if you're using missile launchers and autocannons in your infantry, then lascannons could go in there just as well.

The Punisher is just outright too expensive for what it does. That's it's problem. You get just as effective and harder to kill out of a squad of Ogryns for about the same points.

Exterminators are not quite traps. Note that you can get two Hydra flak tanks for twice as many twin-linked autocannon shots for the same points. I personally like Executioners just for the psychological effect seeing that size of a plasma cannon has on Marine players, but in strict cost effectiveness terms, it's also too expensive for what it does. My go-to Russ hulls are a basic battle tank and a Demolisher with multimeltas. Note that the cannons on the Russ models are easily interchangeable with the clever use of magnets, so you don't need to buy a lot of models to have a lot of options.

[Silus]

Well the Autocannons, at least in my mind, are a nice midground for taking out the enemy. They have nice range and good power and are good enough to take out most light armor and tough troops. The Missile launchers I take mostly for the versatility. Troops harassing you? Frag missiles. Armor or something big and nasty? Krak missiles. I suppose Lascannons could find a spot in the army. Dropping characters, big nasties and armor from 48' away...

I really hope they buff the Punisher tanks though. The concept is just awesome IMO. Maybe turn'em into Fast Attack and mount'em on a Chimera or something. Like a Hellhound but with better range.

And what would be a good Vet Squad to Infantry Platoon ratio? I do really like the Vet squads due to their versatility and all the nifty little options.

And three quick question regarding tanks:

1. Tanks can fire Heavy weapons after moving, correct?
2. Is the Chem Dog variant of the Hellhound worth getting/investing in? If only by having one per squadron at least.
3. Heavy Stubber or Storm Bolter for pintle mount? Or does it really matter?

[Razgriez]

1. Tanks do not use the standard "Rapid Fire" "heavy", "pistol", "Assault" RoF rules. Instead, they go by Main/Primary weapon, and Defensive Weapons. A Primary weapon is any weapon, of Str 5 or higher. Defensive is Str 4 or lower. Moving reduces the number of weapons you may fire in a turn for Vehicles.
However, there are some special notes to this:

-When firing weapons vehicles, you always fire the weapon, as though the unit firing it was Stationary, for the purpose of rules such as "Heavy" or "Rapid Fire" (Vehicles are stable firing platforms, Have advanced targeting systems compared to a troop carried version of the weapon, or just frankly, has the Ammo reserves for MORE DAKKA!)

--Note, in the case of Transported infantry with firing port access, they however, must be treated as having moved if the vehicle moved. or stationary if they vehicle didn't.

2. The Banewolf with the Chem cannon you mean? It's a mixed bag. First off, you have to remember, stock, the Banewolf is a purely Anti-Infantry, and it's better suited for heavy infantry with good/high toughness, and Power Armor. Secondly, you only have 2 Anti-Vehicle options on a Banewolf: a Multi-Melta (which cost points, reduces the Overall Rate of fire for the tank, and on a Fast Tank, with Ok, but not great, armor, tends to draw a lot of (un)wanted attention. Aside from that, Option number two, is a One-shot Hunter Killer. which is....meh. It either hits and earns it's upgrade points back, or fails miserably it seems, or does minor damage to the target. In a Guard army, where you're hit chance for most tanks is 50%, I'd be tempted to avoid HK missiles like a Nurgling Plague. My view is this: If you're going to field a Banewolf in your Hellhound squadron, keep it Anti-Infantry focused, and better yet, for Heavier armored ones, like Tau, or Space Marines, or Monster heavy 'Nid armies. And the Hellhound can do much of what the Banewolf can do, but with better range, and better Anti-vehicle capability.

That said, due to it's stats, you can keep a Banewolf more mobile and keep firing it's Chem Cannon more often, which is nice.

3.For Guard, I'm more partial for Stubbers, as it has better range, and Fire rate. The weaker AP value to me, isn't that huge of drawback when compared to a Storm Bolters. Plus, when you consider that virtually everything you can mount Pintle weaponry on, comes with a much more lethal main gun with better AP values, it's ok for the trade off.

Speaking of AP, my general view on it is as follows: when it comes to weapon equipment decisions, any weapon with an AP value of 5, or worse, consider it an AP- weapon. As most forces that are still vulnerable to such weak AP, are typically making careful use of alternative forms of protection, such as cover saves for better protection, and likely will only get a few mere bonus kills from such. In otherwords. You're looking to kill via raw power or number of shots with such a weapon, not AP.

[Hootman]

1. Tanks can fire Heavy weapons after moving, correct?
2. Is the Chem Dog variant of the Hellhound worth getting/investing in? If only by having one per squadron at least.
3. Heavy Stubber or Storm Bolter for pintle mount? Or does it really matter?

1. Yes, they can. The Rulebook can give a more comprehensive description than I can, but there are a bunch of rules on it.

2. I would say definitely. You can also take the Hull Heavy Flamer with it in order to double-template people, because the Chem Cannon is a defensive weapon (It's only S1, but the 2+ Poison covers that).

3. Honestly, I wouldn't bother with either. What's the point? In the current Meta in most places, anti-tank is the name of the game. There just aren't enough situations where you might get glanced to death that an extra (crappy) weapon will somehow save you. It's not like your opponent is going to choose to destroy the Stubber INSTEAD of the main Battle Cannon, unless they're from Bizarro World. Those extra 2 or 3 shots (which may not even hit, and have pitiful Strength) aren't worth the points if you have the ability to spend said points on...pretty much anything else.

My opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary, but I don't expect it to.

[Silus]

1. Yes, they can. The Rulebook can give a more comprehensive description than I can, but there are a bunch of rules on it.

2. I would say definitely. You can also take the Hull Heavy Flamer with it in order to double-template people, because the Chem Cannon is a defensive weapon (It's only S1, but the 2+ Poison covers that).

3. Honestly, I wouldn't bother with either. What's the point? In the current Meta in most places, anti-tank is the name of the game. There just aren't enough situations where you might get glanced to death that an extra (crappy) weapon will somehow save you. It's not like your opponent is going to choose to destroy the Stubber INSTEAD of the main Battle Cannon, unless they're from Bizarro World. Those extra 2 or 3 shots (which may not even hit, and have pitiful Strength) aren't worth the points if you have the ability to spend said points on...pretty much anything else.

My opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary, but I don't expect it to.

1. I'll need to read through the rulebook properly then. My knowledge of the rules dates back to....oh God, 2nd Edition? Whichever one it was with the crazy big black book with the Black Templar on the front. Before the Tau came out and the Guard Sentinels where those metal chaingun armed contraptions.

2. I take it the 2+ Poison is explained in the rule book? Also, for the Chimera, it says that like 6 troopers inside can shoot from the firing ports, yet the bit at the back of the Codex does not say that the Chimera is armed with lasguns. So with this in mind, can a squad in a Chimera fire out of the ports with their own weapons, and if so, does the player get to decide what weapons? 'Cause I have a crazy idea to load a pair of Support squads with flamers up in a Chimera and rush an enemy squad with flamers blazing.

Also, would it be a good idea to switch a Hellhound squadron with a flier squadron (Valkyrie or Vendetta), or should I stick with the tanks?

3. Well if the main gun does get disabled, then having the pintle mounted one might not be such a bad idea. Especially if you have points left for the pintle but not enough for anything else.

And to everyone else, sorry for kinda hogging the tail end of the last page. usual website I got to about this sort of stuff is crazy slow.

[Cheesegear]

1. I'll need to read through the rulebook properly then. My knowledge of the rules dates back to....oh God, 2nd Edition? Whichever one it was with the crazy big black book with the Black Templar on the front. Before the Tau came out and the Guard Sentinels where those metal chaingun armed contraptions.

That'd be 3rd Edition. Not much has changed since then. 6th will probably shake things up. But if you know anything about 3rd Edition, you've got most of the rules in 5th.

I take it the 2+ Poison is explained in the rule book?

No. It's explained on Page 50 of the IG Codex.

Also, for the Chimera, it says that like 6 troopers inside can shoot from the firing ports, yet the bit at the back of the Codex does not say that the Chimera is armed with lasguns.

Because it isn't.

So with this in mind, can a squad in a Chimera fire out of the ports with their own weapons, and if so, does the player get to decide what weapons?

Yes and Yes.

'Cause I have a crazy idea to load a pair of Support squads with flamers up in a Chimera and rush an enemy squad with flamers blazing.

That's what you're supposed to do. With the exception that Flamers are not particularly powerful in the current edition.

Also, would it be a good idea to switch a Hellhound squadron with a flier squadron (Valkyrie or Vendetta), or should I stick with the tanks?

Never take Squadrons if you've got slots to spare. Always take single units of 1 where possible. Since nobody has pointed you to them yet...
Read this.

Well if the main gun does get disabled, then having the pintle mounted one might not be such a bad idea. Especially if you have points left for the pintle but not enough for anything else.

For Guard, it's fairly easy to put those points onto anything else other than a pintle-weapon. They're just not that useful.

And to everyone else, sorry for kinda hogging the tail end of the last page. usual website I got to about this sort of stuff is crazy slow.

It's better than using the last two pages for coming up with the title for the next thread like we usually do. Luckily, this thread we've already come up with two solid choices.

[Silus]

Some more questions, this time about regular troops and all things non-tank ('Cause I wanna get as much info as I can before going out and buying things I don't need):

1. How viable are Support squads? Someone on another site mentioned that if I wanted to run lots of Support/special weapons, I'd be better off gearing up a Platoon Command squad to the teeth with weapons than making a 6-man-3-weapon squad for less points.

2. For Veteran Squads, is it best to focus on one aspect (Assault, long ranged, ect) or is it viable to make them a sort of "jack-of-all-trades" squad? The one I currently have has a flamer, grenade launcher, rocket launcher, and a sniper rifle, though I'll likely split them into more appropriate squads (also have two snipers, three flamers and a melta from back when I played. I blame the Catachans).

3. Rough Riders: To take or not to take? Likewise, what would a good Elite choice be? I'm leaning towards a full team of Ratlings at the moment for strategic pinning and maybe some Storm Troopers if GW ever makes plastics.

4. Sentinels: Should I go with the Scout or the Armored ones, and depending on which, what should their role be? I'm leaning towards Scout with a versatile makeup in terms of weapons so that they can take out either infantry or vehicles with ease (Autocannons and a Missile Launcher).

[Cheesegear]

1. How viable are Support squads?

Not very. The only good ones are Heavy Weapons Teams with Autocannons. Which regular Infantry Squads can do. As for Special Weapons Teams, tool out your Command Squad like you've already been told, or use Veterans in Chimeras.

is it viable to make [Veterans] a sort of "jack-of-all-trades" squad?

Absolutely not. Currently, the only viable choice is all Meltaguns, all the time. In a Gunship or Chimera. They can not be left on foot. Another choice is Plasmaguns and Armour. But Command Squads can take more Plasma in addition to Feel No Pain which makes them better at it.

Meltavets.

Rough Riders: To take or not to take?

No.

Likewise, what would a good Elite choice be?

Psyker Battle Squads. Ratlings aren't as good as they used to be since Pinning isn't that good anymore and Ratlings can't use their Infiltrate to Score like Marines. Storm Troops are nearly always outclassed by Veterans who can Score.

Sentinels: Should I go with the Scout or the Armored ones, and depending on which, what should their role be?

You didn't read this like I told you?

[Silus]

Not very. The only good ones are Heavy Weapons Teams with Autocannons. Which regular Infantry Squads can do. As for Special Weapons Teams, tool out your Command Squad like you've already been told, or use Veterans in Chimeras.



Absolutely not. Currently, the only viable choice is all Meltaguns, all the time. In a Gunship or Chimera. They can not be left on foot. Another choice is Plasmaguns and Armour. But Command Squads can take more Plasma in addition to Feel No Pain which makes them better at it.

Meltavets.



No.



Psyker Battle Squads. Ratlings aren't as good as they used to be since Pinning isn't that good anymore and Ratlings can't use their Infiltrate to Score like Marines. Storm Troops are nearly always outclassed by Veterans who can Score.



You didn't read this like I told you?

Haha, sorry, derp moment ^^;

With regards to the meltas and plasma, would grenade launchers and a missile launcher be viable until I get my hands on some the previously mentioned weapons? Also, where would be a good source for them aside from buying the metals? I suppose I could cannibalize this metal multimelta I have lying around...Maybe turn this spare flamer bit into a short barreled melta...

And since Support squads are not really viable, what would you suggest I do with the many flamers that I have lying about? I was thinking just sticking them in other squads and using the spare troopers to make another vet squad or something.

[Cheesegear]

With regards to the meltas and plasma, would grenade launchers and a missile launcher be viable until I get my hands on some the previously mentioned weapons?

As I tell everyone with limited funds and/or 'Models Pre-Built', whatever you've got is generally okay for now, if only so you can proxy. Just keep it in the back of your mind that stuff you've got probably isn't as good as it could be and you need to think about expanding your collection.

Also, where would be a good source for them aside from buying the metals?

Nowhere. That's the thing. Mail Order sells blisters of 5. I think they might be under Space Marine bitz (that's where I get them from, anyway), but they're still Plasma and Meltaguns.

And since Support squads are not really viable, what would you suggest I do with the many flamers that I have lying about?

Whatever you want. Its often good to have one (but definitely not more than two) Veteran Squad with two Flamers and a Heavy Flamer Outflanking in their vehicle (Use Harker+Chimera or a Gunship). All's a Special Weapon Squad will do in the long run is eat your points and give away Kill Points.

I don't know. Do what you want. Even if you never plan to use them. I've got a full squad of 10 Assault Marines and a Chaplain that I never use and they just sit on my shelf because I just wanted to have some to complete my Codex.

[Drasius]

Nice BatRep Cheesegear. I look forward to seeing how you manage to make WW's a force to be reckoned with. If nothing else, they'd make a nice mess of IG blobs, and would undoubtedly come as a rude shock to most IG players seeing as no-one ever uses the rocket-pack-on-a-rhino whirlwind.

[Cheesegear]

Nice BatRep Cheesegear. I look forward to seeing how you manage to make WW's a force to be reckoned with.

I probably can't. Whirlwinds are, really, really bad. And I can't drop the Preds because I've already established that they're important. Which means I'll cap out at exactly one Whirlwind. I might drop the two Dreadnoughts for a squad of seven Sternguard with Meltas and Heavy Flamers and Drop Pod, that'll work, right?

[Silus]

Question regarding Chaos fluff:

Lucius the Eternal can come back, more or less, from the dead if he is killed and his killer feels one squick of triumph from the act.

What happens if he's killed by a Necron (Who are, I believe, emotionless can cannot feel triumph over the act)? Or a Tyranid that gets reabsorbed into the Hive Fleet?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Whirlwinds would be nicer if they had just 6" more range and could bombard combined guard squads without being hittable by returning lascannon fire.

Or if they could just fire krak.