OOTS #841 - The Discussion Thread

[2xMachina]

I vote for Scarab of Death infestation!

[RMS Oceanic]

I refuse to believe Belkar couldn't recognize rotting corpse, so this is faked somehow.

I same somehow, but it is a master illusionist.

Rotting != Mummified. Remember we had a glimpse of Roy's rotting corpse before it was a skeleton, and it didn't look like these.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

One thought I had was "Why didn't Belkar identify the smell as Dead humans?" As opposed to "Weird Smelling" humans.

Belkar has killed more than a few people in his day, so I'm sure he is familiar with the smell of death. He has also identified Roy by smell alone, and it has been shown several times his sense of smell is great.

And of course the title of the strip is a clue: Time is an Illusion, Lunchtime Doubly So. I think that was the Giant's way of saying don't believe your eyes. Or nose. Or any other sense. You have to think your way through.

[turkishproverb]

...


*shudder*

[Willis888]

Well that's weird.

-The high heat and low humidity of a desert would quickly dry anything left in a well ventilated room. Veggies would turn brown and bodies would become odorless jerky.
-The food looks somewhat fresh, like it was just served within the last 24 hours.
-The bodies seem dry, like they've been there at least 2 weeks.

Either it's an illusion, or magic was used that selectively dessicated animal tissue but not plant tissue. If it's not an illusion, it had to have happened recently for there to be an odor.

How did the guy in purple on the bottom right table manage to get a celery stick on top of his arm?

I'm guessing no showers in the desert + hasty illusion when the traps were sprung.

If what we see is real — if the Draketooth clan is dead, and if Familicide is the culprit:

Spoiler

Show

The gate is now unguarded, more or less, except by whatever illusions and deceptions that were left in place...

...because the IFCC gave Vaarsuvius a spell for just that purpose...

...which Vaarsuvius only needed because the Order had to kill a young adult black dragon...

...because they were sent on a side quest to obtain starmetal...

...by Sabine, who is a succubus...

...who reports to the IFCC...

...who now own an hour of Vaarsuvius's soul...

...right next to an unguarded gate.

Just for grins, I'll also mention: we know that Belkar and Durkon are going to die soon. Anybody want to place any bets that it's Vaarsuvius who kills them?

No bet

[Quild]

Has is occurred to anyone that

Spoiler

Show

the snarl may be responsible? we see here that the snarl is able to kill humans without leaving wounds. So perhaps the gate is weak or even already broken. The interesting thing is that

Spoiler

Show

the race for the gate could still continue, as it will take some time for the various sides to find the real gate and see it to be destroyed. Meanwhile, the snarl could be waiting to strike again at any party that gets too close.

This is a very interessant theory, but...

Either the rift is still weakened, and the party is in deep trouble.
Either one of Girard's kin managed to reinforce the seal on the rift (presumably before dying himself), but it would seem improbable considering how the others died suddenly.

[sparkyinbozo]

Edit: that's what I get for not reading the forum first...I thought I was going to be early on the familicide train.

[RMS Oceanic]

-The food looks somewhat fresh, like it was just served within the last 24 hours.

Does it? It looked a sickly green to me.

[Seonor]

Okay, I'm sure Xykon, the familicide, or some form of illusion are the more non-impossible answers, but the first thing I thought when I saw that scene was "Oh ****, The Drifter is back."

I have to agree with this. A building looking a bit like a Ziggurat? Bugs bigger than they should be? Dead people?

[tcrudisi]

My immediate reaction upon reading this is that they stumbled upon an illusion. I read the first page and a half, so I know others think the same thing as well. I never considered Familicide, but that just doesn't feel like it's the correct answer.

I also have a reason for thinking illusion: this isn't the real Draketooth clan. If it was, the Linear Guild would already be there. Remember their plan to let the OotS clear out everything before the LG swoops in at the last minute to get there first? Yeah, that didn't happen. Therefore this is, in my mind, a clear illusion.

I realize I could be wrong but I stand by my theory!

[Red XIV]

Does it? It looked a sickly green to me.

That might be what the food was like to begin with. More to the point, we see a bunch of the beetles flocking to the food. Yet the food's still there. That would imply that the beetles only arrived recently, which you wouldn't expect to be the case if everybody died weeks ago.

[Porthos]

re: The whole Familicide discussion.

I don't think Familicide matches up though, time wise. I mean, maybe it does, but that food still being there presents a bit of a problem. It seems to me if we are looking for a Triggering Event, the spell going off in the desert seems more likely. It even allows for a few days of panic to set in amongst leadership before someone decides that something horrible needs to be done.

But I've been thinking some more of the Jonestown Theory and I've run into a major roadblock. It's one thing to set a spell trap to take out what you believe to be "fascist lackeys". It's even one thing not to care all that much about innocent bystanders getting caught in the explosion.

It's a whole 'nother level to murder all your kinsfolk in cold blood. A WAY 'nother level. A way way WAY 'nother level.

So. Major roadblock there. And a damn near insurmountable one.

Now what could lift the roadblocks is, mostly, if Girard isn't in the picture anymore and someone who is even more paranoid is in charge. Someone paranoid enough to silence people who might know too much, permanently. That might take care of the biggest objection, but it's still pretty flimsy.

So I think I'll step back a tiny bit from a Jonestown analogue. But, out of all the theories I've heard, some variation of that, as well as some variation of an Epic Illusion are the ones that seem most plausible to me.

Both have their problems, of course. But they might work.

[Conor77]

I personally am holding out for the Illusion idea or that the Snarl killed them all after being released for some reason. My thoughts on the matter, both for others to reference and to support my own views, are thusly:

1.

Spoiler

Show

It cannot have been Familicide. This point is important because the rest of my points would support that theory if not for this. I don't know if anyone has said this already, but remember the Arcane Eye/Scrying Eye/Magic Eye Thingy that appeared in the desert to observe the party after they triggered Girard's first trap? Only Scruffy saw it, and he ran away. But, this happened after the party go back together, and after V cast his super spell. The eye may have been an auto-trigger, but I doubt this. This means that someone who knew of the decoy, probably Girard or associates, knew that it had been activated. This further means that they were not dead when the decoy was activated, which was after V's spell, meaning at least one person was left alive, even if the rest were killed, etc. etc.

EDIT: arcane eye thing at the bottom: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html

2.

Spoiler

Show

They died recently. The desert will dessicate them quickly, and the bugs would have eaten the food a short time after they died. Since the scarabs have seemingly just discovered the food and not eaten it all already, their death has to be recent.

3.

Spoiler

Show

Their death was sudden. Obviously, given their state of being.

4.

Spoiler

Show

Their death did not "enter" through the main entrance, if it did at all. Obvious again, due to the traps being unsprung upon entry.

5.

Spoiler

Show

Their death was magical. This may be going a bit far, but they all look like sorcerers with Girard's mark, and even if they aren't some of them would have to be. And they all died. Suddenly, with no time to stand up from their tables or offer any resistance? It must be magic. Nothing else has the raw power.

6.

Spoiler

Show

they smelled funny to Belkar. More going out on limbs here, but I am fairly sure that Belkar would know the normal smell of dead flesh even in a desert. This further underlines the magical connection for leaving behind a funny smell.

7.

Spoiler

Show

It cannot have been poison. Reading up on more theories, this was a sort of popular one. However, all the people in that room died, and they were in various states of meal. The one man died crossing the room, and I find it unlikely that he happened to die at the exact same time as the rest if poison was involved

Okay, so after all those things (I may add more if I think of them) I have three theories:

Theory 1:

Spoiler

Show

The Snarl killed them. This fits all my points. It wasn't familicide, it could have been released recently for all we know, it would have been sudden if it finally got an outlet, it didn't need to enter, it would certainly be considered magical, it may leave a strange scent upon the death of its victims for all we know, and it isn't poison.

Theory 2:

Spoiler

Show

It is an illusion. In this case, all of the above can be thrown out a window. It doesn't matter what they are like, because everything there is just covering up the fact that everyone is alive and well. They smell funny because the smell part of the illusion doesn't work properly or Girard doesn't know how to duplicate it properly. The scarabs and food are an illusion, so the one never depletes the other. Thinking more on this theory, I like it better and better, because Girard is of course an Epic Sorcerer who specializes in illusion and is extremely paranoid. The room may be a huge booby trap like the ones he has already set up, or it may be an alert for him and associates to stage a defense.

theory 3:

Spoiler

Show

Betrayal. If you'll give me a little leeway for metagaming here,I think Rich would find this an ironic twist to have to someone who was always paranoid of those not his family to be killed by his family. In this case, his family member would have used some kind of a spell to kill them, such as horrid wilting, and would already have been inside the castle, so no need for the traps to be sprung.

Just my huge number of cents that is in no way 2. But might be worth less than 2. I could be rolling a 1 on my Intuition check here. Please, criticize away and counter my arguments and do all those kinds of things to it. I welcome them.

EDIT: I just thought of poison gas being used in conjunction with the betrayal, so disregard my 7th point, because gaseous poisons may exist and may have been used. However, this would have to have been delivered in some way, which I still think best befits a betrayal by a family member

[Conor77]

Sorry. Forum shenanigan clone. Please disregard.

[psijac]

when I read the title of the comic, I thought that YY would kick the bucket in this one.
upon seeing the last panel of the comic, I immediately thought about poisoned food and for the time being I'll stick with this theory
the sight of the last panel made me want to vomit

after some time an awful realisation came to me
this was the last comic of the mystery-prize-continous-comics, so - especially with Rich burdened with resolving kickstarter issues - we won't likely see the next comic for weeks if not months to come.

An excellent cliff hanger/WTH moment.

Unless its an illusion. It doesn't matter Who/whatever killed these people OOTS will have to defend the gate by themselves against Linear and Team Evil. Unlike Azure city where they had an entire army

Everyone was wondering how The Giant would write an encounter around an illusions without everything being a red herring. The answer is to throw that hat out and turn it into the last act of the movie Serenity

[Flame of Anor]

I personally am holding out for the Illusion idea or that the Snarl killed them all after being released for some reason. My thoughts on the matter, both for others to reference and to support my own views, are thusly:

1. It cannot have been Familicide. This point is important because the rest of my points would support that theory if not for this. I don't know if anyone has said this already, but remember the Arcane Eye/Scrying Eye/Magic Eye Thingy that appeared in the desert to observe the party after they triggered Girard's first trap? Only Scruffy saw it, and he ran away. But, this happened after the party go back together, and after V cast his super spell. The eye may have been an auto-trigger, but I doubt this. This means that someone who knew of the decoy, probably Girard or associates, knew that it had been activated. This further means that they were not dead when the decoy was activated, which was after V's spell, meaning at least one person was left alive, even if the rest were killed, etc. etc.

Dude, that was Zz'dtri, almost certainly. Girard's magic is purple.

theory 3: Betrayal. If you'll give me a little leeway for metagaming here,I think Rich would find this an ironic twist to have to someone who was always paranoid of those not his family to be killed by his family. In this case, his family member would have used some kind of a spell to kill them, such as horrid wilting, and would already have been inside the castle, so no need for the traps to be sprung.

It seems kind of a stretch to think that people raised by a probably good-aligned adventurer-hero would brutally murder their entire family, including children, and then, as though that wasn't enough, leave them to rot.

Sorry. Forum shenanigan clone. Please disregard.

You know you can just delete that post? The threads here would be a lot cleaner if people would delete their double posts.

[ArtosSwiftblade]

Options as I see them.

1. Natural disaster/accident; utterly unrelated to main plot so far, to shock us all. Could have been some time ago, based on the bodies, and the fact you don't decompose much in a desert; too hot. And that many bodies would take a while for the scarabs to eat.

2. Some other villain we don't know about yet. Another of the supposed 9 sides?

3. Xykon got there first; but no zombification seems odd.

4. It's an illusion; we haven't seen many impressive ones so far; now that could be because they're all dead, or it could be Girard/descendents of Girard are more skilled than the Order are giving them credit for.

I can't see it being the Snarl; if it was able to act that way surely there'd be more awareness of it/sign of it.

[Conor77]

Dude, that was Zz'dtri, almost certainly. Girard's magic is purple.



It seems kind of a stretch to think that people raised by a probably good-aligned adventurer-hero would brutally murder their entire family, including children, and then, as though that wasn't enough, leave them to rot.



You know you can just delete that post? The threads here would be a lot cleaner if people would delete their double posts.

Ah, the color-coded magic. Alright, that's true, but the food/scarab time period still seems wrong. Also, we have no idea of the family circumstances that would have led to a betrayal, including some kind of paranoid schizophrenia induced breakdown. And thanks for the tip. I had no idea.

[Flame of Anor]

I can't see it being the Snarl; if it was able to act that way surely there'd be more awareness of it/sign of it.

Plus, they're not right next to the gate.

Or are they?!?

(No, they're not)

[Conor77]

Options as I see them.

1. Natural disaster/accident; utterly unrelated to main plot so far, to shock us all. Could have been some time ago, based on the bodies, and the fact you don't decompose much in a desert; too hot. And that many bodies would take a while for the scarabs to eat.

I can't see it being the Snarl; if it was able to act that way surely there'd be more awareness of it/sign of it.

The other theories seem fine, but I wasn't talking about the bodies. The food is what I was referring to them eating. They hadn't even touched any of the bodies, so either they wouldn't eat them or would eat them after the more viable food, which, as I mentioned, was still there. Also, given what Blackwing saw when he tried to throw Xykon's phylactery into the Azure City rift, it is not entirely implausible that the Snarl's nature has somehow shifted or something. Just saying, it could be different. Redcloak may not have gotten around to reanimating the bodies yet, if that's what happened.

EDIT: "That's what happened" referring to Xykon and co. arriving, not the Snarl killing everybody. A little clarification.

[i6uuaq]

My bid to win an internet.

Spoiler

Show

To those who say that the timing is wrong for familicide, besides the fact that dry air can mummify bodies effectively, and this has been observed in real life, I offer this second thought:

Spoiler

Show

Familicide was cast around lunchtime.

Do I win?

[Burner28]

I suppose so.

[B. Dandelion]

Belkar stated just a couple of days ago that the Greysky City incident happened 'a few weeks ago'. This was was about the same time Familicide was cast.

Keep in mind that he's talking about kicking Bozzok's butt, which doesn't align with their day of departure from Greysky, the same day Vaarsuvius was spliced and cast Familicide. They kicked his butt and wound up staying with the Guild afterwords. (How long I'm not sure, but Kazumi later tells Vaarsuvius "She called Durkon with a Sending spell, like, days ago.")

The familicide theory is really good, though there are (as people have pointed out) some potential problems--most especially, why didn't the people who had married into the family survive,

Marry into the family, and have a kid with the family, and you've signed your own death warrant via Familicide, because via that child you are "directly related to someone directly related."

If Orrin's treatment of Penelope is any indication, they didn't likely have any non-relatives around anyway.

[Conor77]

My bid to win an internet.

Spoiler

Show

To those who say that the timing is wrong for familicide, besides the fact that dry air can mummify bodies effectively, and this has been observed in real life, I offer this second thought:

Spoiler

Show

Familicide was cast around lunchtime.

Do I win?

That, my friend, Is a VERY good bid to win an internet. I do agree that the bodies can totally be mummified for a long time. My main reference was the food and the scarabs, but honestly I think it might have been a detail that wasn't actually that important.

[RMS Oceanic]

My bid to win an internet.

Spoiler

Show

To those who say that the timing is wrong for familicide, besides the fact that dry air can mummify bodies effectively, and this has been observed in real life, I offer this second thought:

Spoiler

Show

Familicide was cast around lunchtime.

Do I win?

Ooh, that's a subtle hint indeed. Well done.

[Cynric]

My first instinct was Girard. he's old, mad and paranoid. Can't trust anyone anymore, not even his own family. They have to go, for the good of the universe!

Although, after reading this forum, either illusion or the "V thing" seem perhaps more probable.

[Katana_Geldar]

Durkon also can smell the dead bodies, it can't be an illusion.

[ti'esar]

My bid to win an internet.

Spoiler

Show

To those who say that the timing is wrong for familicide, besides the fact that dry air can mummify bodies effectively, and this has been observed in real life, I offer this second thought:

Spoiler

Show

Familicide was cast around lunchtime.

Do I win?

Unholy crap. That's hardly conclusive, but it's very worrying. We know the Elven Lands are on the Western Continent, so it's not like we've got a significant time differential.

I do think we can rule out mass suicide. It's just too odd a way to do it, I think. Girard's still an option - I always took him as CN more then CG, and it's possible that something - finding that there's visitors on the way - finally sent him completely over the edge. But I consider it a bit unlikely.

[Karuth]

So much to see, so little do we really know.

How hot/dry is it to estimate decay?
Do the beetles eat flesh?
What are this scribbly things all over the walls and the faces?

Here is one thing I'd like to add. Just because Girard is a well known illusionist, it does not mean he has to rely solely on illusions for deception.
Transmutation allows some trickery as well. And there are also mundane tricks and stuff (optical illusions and such).
Maybe Girard has specialized in diversion/trickery/psychology in a more general meaning? Such as using all means available be it magical or mundane to create his "illusions".

If the massacre is indeed a deception it could very well not be an illusion.
I could see the corpses as being "Stone to Fleshed" statues, with a permanent "Gentle Repose" on them (all the scribbly lines could be such a spell). That would make them very real even for True seeing.

The bugs could be tiny constructs, just waiting for people to make a mistake.

[Omergideon]

And now we find out what smells worse than normal humans.

Option 1: Illusion. Put there to convince people to get out as quickly as possible, or lull them into a false sense of security.

Option 2: V's familicide. I didn't think of it until I read it in the forums, but it could be possible. Seems like a stretch though.

Option 3: Team Evil got there first (we don't know how much time passed between strips) and found a way to do that. Seems unlikely.

So I'm thinking illusion.

OhMy. Now having seen the strip I think these are the 3 most likely theories based on who/what we know in the comic. However there are of course always a lot of other possibilities to explain what has happened. Now Familicide is the least likely I would suggest, as there are many types of dragon/only 1/4 of black ones died etc. The placement of Team Evil's departure suggest they could have arrived/be about to arrive so this one is a stronger guess. But considering Roy's in universe speculation on the weakness of the protections I lean towards this being another illusion. Probably.


No I won't speculate on how recently the deaths occurred. Considering the kind of dehydration etc people can recieve in a desert environment their appearance is not entirely unexpected. In extremely hot temperatures decomposition can be much more rapid. In dry environments it slows down considerably as bacteria cannot breed as fast. Bugs could have arrived immeadiately, or they could have been scratching around for weeks and driven off by illusions time after time. For all we know they are the source of the apparent death themselves. And anything that can kill a huge group almost instantly, without any sign of struggles is unknown to me.

But overall it leads to an incredible cliffhanger moment. It also adds a small amount of value back to the strip where Belkar found the smell. It means it provided some foreshadowing of this moment, even if we cannot tell how much. A good use of prior materials.

So onto my thoughts.

The Good:
1) The art. From the excellent detailing and scope of the Temple and the runes on the walls, to the horrifying but well drawn image of the dead. What is most impressive abot that image is how every corpse appears to be in a different position. This was not a copy paste job. It was all well drawn, including the rare shots of the backs of many order members. They are not too common so it is nice to see them done here. Finally the starkness and barrenness of most of the rooms adds to the air and atmosphere of this place as a desert tomb-like temple. All excellent work.
2) OF course second must come the final moment. There have been some brilliant cliffhangers in the past and this one is no exception to the rule. none of us is quite sure what is going on and there are many possibilities. And the moment is not just a good cliffhanger like some strips (e.g. 825). Every piece of dialogue almost, every scene and panel builds to it. Comments from Durkon about smell, Roy about lack of traps, the emptiness of the place, the whispers. They all slowly build tension to the final moment. Truly brilliant structuring.
3) As well as this though we do get some beautifully in character jokes and references, such as the up/down a level callback. And Belkar was on top form with his one liners too. Also Elan was funny. It does not detract from the building tension, but keeps it from being overwhelming. Plus the jokes are based on character traits, not situation, which is always my favourite type. All great writing.
4) And finally I must comment on how this adds to the overall story arc. This strip has a great moment as is, but the sheer volume of possible stories coming from this, the ways it could go, and the amount of speculation now is testament to the craft here. A great story needs to have more than one plausible way it could go. If we only have one then it becomes predictable. Now we do not have enough potential plots for total confusion, but we have plenty of places to go from here. Fantastic work.

The Bad:
1) I have only one complaint, and it is more a personal preference than objective. I feel like we have glossed over the situations with YukYuk so far. I expect them to be addressed fairly soon. And the fact Haley is on trap duty seems to imply Roy did have "a talk" about the Kobold. But there is not direct addressing of the issue thus far. I think a throwaway line would have added a lot to this element that formed the core of the last strip. But this is more my preference and does little to detract from the power of this strip. Still a minor issue is an issue all the same.

So as you can probably guess I really thought this was a great strip. I mean it is incredible work. The atmosphere, the character humour, the cliffhanger, the pacing and the artwork all come together in that rare brilliance that makes a great story. **** for my view and certainly worth the reading. I am now desperate to see what happens next and while of course I want my Kickstarter swag I hope it doesn't mean no work on OoTS comics. I will go insane without them.