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2012-07-15, 05:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Alignments have been knocked back down a peg or two, but otherwise the Top Ten are unchanged.
Anyone have suggestions on chopping the monolithic Rules category down?
Statistics:SpoilerNearly half the suggestions (48) have only one vote (not including two that were downvoted to 1). There are 14 negative votes so far; 31 voters have used all their votes, 22 have only used one, and 18 of the remaining 21 have used between 2 and 5 votes each.
On the other hand, a well-trained combatant will recognize feints in many cases, even if their ability to sense social trends is underdeveloped. BAB is the most straightforward way to represent that. (Perhaps it should be added to both sides?)
Of course, in my opinion, feinting shouldn't be so horribly inefficient, either; move action base and swift with Improved would seem more sensible.
Yeah, the standards here are actually pretty high (low?). Also, while you can certainly organize by priority for your own use, please don't expect me to run through that to figure out what to drop.
That may be so; however, it's quite a bit too late to rearrange the voting schema at this point. (That probably also applies to my abortive idea of increasing the vote maximum.)Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.
Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity
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2012-07-15, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
I have a 3rd party book (GASP!!HORROR!!) by RPGObjects about using D&D to play in Arthurian England; it's called Legends of Excalibur. Instead of alignment, LoE has a mechanic called Nobility- it's rated on a scale of 0-100, with 0 basically meaning you're Adolf Hitler and 100 meaning you're Galahad-pure-and-good. Acts that protect the innocent and helpless or defend society and its mores increase Nobility, while acts against the powers that be or of despicable barbarism decrease your Nobility.
Your nobility has additional in game effects, such as a weapon property that gives bonus damage against those whose Nobility is less than yours. It may also affect how NPCs interact with you; wanna hobnob with and make contacts among the nobility? Better get yours up to be commensurate with theirs, as a "robber baron" with low low Nobility is gonna get the cold shoulder, no matter how wealthy and finely dressed he is.
I myself like the mechanic. It gives your actions more of an in-game effect beyond "I'm Lawful Evil so Holy weapons do extra damage to me and I make Paladins uncomfortable".
Mostly that they're really, really weak...and more to the point, <SNIP>
For a more detailed assessment, check out this long-beloved guide: Zaq's Truenamer guide/warning.MeanPeople Suck
The Lord of the Rings is not a trilogy; words have meanings, and cannot be arbitrarily redefined just because you're lazy and/or careless. Or, put another way: Infer we shoe to gobble the blueberry jazz musician? Spleen! Water crackers pontificate when sebum roasts merrily for the lagoon.
You can either roll a DIE (singular), or multiple DICE (plural).
Association for Renaissance Martial Arts
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2012-07-15, 08:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
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2012-07-15, 08:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
I'm rare in that I quite like the alignment system - but I regard it as highly setting specific. There are some game worlds where knowing which cosmic forces you actions draw the attention of is quite important, but for those game worlds that don't, it's probably an unecessary burden.
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2012-07-15, 10:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
To me the biggest unsatisfying question of the alignment system is probably this: why is a flesh-eating tiger Neutral while a flesh-eating zombie is Evil? Both are mindless predators just trying to survive; how does being undead make you less entitled to sate your carnivorous hunger with the tacit approval of the gods who protect the natural order?
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2012-07-15, 10:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Tigers have an Intelligence score of 2.
Key phrase here is 'gods who protect the natural order'. A tiger eats what it needs to survive (some exceptions apply, naturally), but a zombie just eats. Unendingly. At least the tiger will eventually die and feed the grass, taking his place in the Circle of Life. The zombie? Not so much.
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2012-07-15, 10:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Also, I've never heard of a zombie starving, for whatever that's worth. Zombies don't need to eat to survive, they just eat because they're compelled to do so.
Of course, judging the morality of a mindless creature literally compelled to act in a certain fashion, with no ability to even consider its actions much less resist said compulsion, is more than a bit absurd.
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2012-07-16, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
You hit on it here. They key is that, in both cases, their alignment is not a function of their actions. Both beings lack agency, and thus their alignment is not a fuction of their actions: in terms of morality, they are essentially objects.
But in D&D, objects can be Evil. Evil in this case becomes a question of history or design, rather than actions: an artifact is designed to be powered by the torment of the innocent, it can be Evil even before it is ever used. If a place has horrors beyond horrors committed at it, it can be Evil even if it never does more than make people in the area uncomfortable.
These patterns reflect, essentially, Contagion Thinking. While this is something we tend to avoid in modern philosophical discussions of morality, is something that is deeply ingrained in our thinking process as humans. It's the same congnative element that makes us uncomfortable with reclaiming wastewater, even when it can be made far cleaner than the water we take from the ground.
It's also heavily shaped our thinking about morality throughout history, even if they ways in which it did so aren't actually valid.
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2012-07-16, 12:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Or that causes us to inherently flinch away from people who are different from us in any measurable way, especially one that hints at a possibility of disease, regardless of whether the disease is actually contagious or not - we instinctively assume it was, because we developed that instinct long before we knew anything about how contagion actually worked.
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2012-07-16, 12:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
I just want to say "sorry" for my part in making this thread devolve into an alignment debate. I know I didn't start it, but I did feed the flames. That being said… actually, I guess we are still kinda on topic, just focusing on one or two candidates and debating thoroughly. Carry on…
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2012-07-16, 01:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
No, not the genre. The setting. Alignment is setting-dependent, because it is a cultural construct disguised as a cosmic force. And in the traditional setting with the traditional assumptions, it is consistent and it mostly works.
Well, it works if you ignore half of the rules, those in BoED an BoVD, otherwise Robin Hood and his Merry Men would be consistently committing Evil acts "objectively". Oh, and you must resign from using character concepts inexplicably disallowed by class restrictions. Other than that, sure, it works. But try to use alignment as written in a different setting or with different assumptions, and it starts falling apart.
[I'm spoilering the rest of it, because it starts to look like derailing, I'm not sure. ]
SpoilerMind you, I'm not using modern morality here ("keeping my oath at this point would be bad for everyone, so I won't, and I don't expect any consequences or anyone to be offended".) I understand perfectly how the setting's culture may be different than my own. But D&D is not any more based on a single (imaginary) culture.
In the traditional setting, you had that pseudo-medieval, weirdly polytheistic, NW European heroic high fantasy, where you obviously played someone from the dominant culture, and you fought skeletons and goblins without thinking about it. That's not a genre, though. That's a merely a subgenre, a setting, and a whole lot of assumptions.
But now, even in the core rules, we have Rennaissance elements, we have Oriental influences, we have Barbarians (who should only be Chaotic to the eyes of the neighboring Empire), we have half-orcs as a Core race, we have blowguns for our Polynesian or Mesoamerican natives (who incidentally are screwed, because poison use is "objectively" and "unconditionally" evil). And the non-core rules shatter the usual cultural conventions, too. Goblins are entirely playable. We have rules supporting a Stone Age environment. And so on.
Yet, we are still firmly in the Heroic Fantasy genre. But the traditional setting isn't a given any more. If you try to focus on a different culture, you'll be disappointed to learn that alignment doesn't fit any more. If you try to build your own cosmology, one without aligned planes and embodiments of Good and Evil for example, you'll find that objective alignment doesn't even make sense in the world, it shouldn't exist as a cosmic force at all.
Fringe cases? Maybe. But seemingly supported by the printed material. And impossible to pull off properly and consistently, unless you throw alignment out of the window. Because alignment interacts with half the rules in the game, and that's what makes it so problematic. If it was just a fluff thing, you wouldn't see another alignment thread pop up every few days. And I wouldn't be ranting about it, either. :)"We need the excuse of fiction to stage what we truly are." ~ Slavoj Žižek, The Pervert’s Guide to Cinema
"El bien más preciado es la libertad" ~ Valeriano Orobón Fernández, A las barricadas
"If civilization has an opposite, it is war." ~ Ursula K. Le Guin, The Left Hand of Darkness
Roguish | We Were Rogue | [3.5] Greek Mythology Variant | [3.5] The Fey Compendium
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2012-07-16, 11:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
it doesn't say you count as dragon blood for prerequisites. it says you automatically qualify for anything that has dragon blood as a prerequisite. so, the prerequisites for everything become "random stuff + dragonblood subtype; or dragon type (no random stuff)". while i'm sure they meant that it counts as dragonblood, that's not how it is written. therefore, badly written.
Originally Posted by RotD pg. 4
Originally Posted by phb2 pg.79
i'll remove 1 vote from fiery fist, and add it to die hard.78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
Where did you start yours?
The PCs were already a special forces type unit in a kingdom's military, so the campaign started in the general's office.
Extended Homebrew Signature
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2012-07-16, 04:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Originally Posted by Races of the Dragon
Honestly, to me, the two terms are synonymous. I can see why you say that they could have just outright stated that all Dragons automatically obtain the [dragonblood] subtype. They probably didn't want to have to clutter the creature type with something they considered redundant (to be a Dragon [dragonblood] creature looks pretty silly, doesn't it?)
That, or this way it was easier to integrate into games that didn't use RotD until recently. Or so they could continue printing just Dragons and wouldn't force people to learn a new subtype if they didn't have to.
Can I use a pair of negative votes on this one?Last edited by Kuulvheysoon; 2012-07-16 at 04:41 PM.
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2012-07-16, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Actually, logically speaking Lunar2 has the right of it. Let's say some PrC requires 9th level spells and the dragonblood subtype.
"Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype"
Is it a PrC? Yes. Does it require the dragonblood subtype? Yes. Thus, any dragon automatically qualifies for that PrC. Even if they don't have 9th level spells they automatically qualify for it, because that's what it says.
It's obviously unintended, but taken literally that's what it means.Last edited by sonofzeal; 2012-07-16 at 06:46 PM.
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2012-07-16, 07:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
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2012-07-16, 07:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
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2012-07-16, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Random selection of single-vote entries:
{table=head]Name | Type
SLAs ignoring components | Rule
free actions | Rule
Monkey Lunge | Feat
Wish | Spell
Incantatrix | Prestige Class
Divine Metamagic | Feat
dead | Rule
Greater Mirror Image | Spell
Factotum | Base Class
Planar Ally/Planar Binding | Spell[/table]
Statistics:SpoilerNearly half the suggestions (51) have only one vote. There are 14 negative votes so far; 31 voters have used all their votes, 22 have only used one, and 18 of the remaining 21 have used between 2 and 5 votes each.
Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. It's a lot like dragons auto-qualifying for epic feats, without needing to be epic. (IIRC, it's not even limited to True Dragons, so all the usual suspects — DWK, wyverns, half-dragons, etc etc — can abuse that.) Of course, it's worse in this case because they apparently don't even need to meet any other prereqs!
i'll remove 1 vote from fiery fist, and add it to die hard.Last edited by TuggyNE; 2012-07-16 at 07:33 PM.
Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.
Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity
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2012-07-16, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Dragons only qualify to take Epic feats if they're Old (Age Category) or older. Considering that only True Dragons have age categories, and that the general consensus is that DWK are not True Dragons, it's not as badly written as it appears.
Originally Posted by Draconomicon
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2012-07-16, 08:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
This is not true. Draconomicon said it was, but Races of the Dragon included a new Dragon (dragonwrought kobold) that did have age categories (including Old), but was not a True Dragon. This is OK because the reason dragonwrought kobolds are not True Dragons is because of a table in Races of the Dragon that explicitly states that it supersedes Draconomicon.
But yes, based on the quote you provided, Old or older dragonwrought kobolds do qualify for Epic feats. They don't qualify, IIRC, for Sovereign Archetypes.
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2012-07-16, 08:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Last edited by Kuulvheysoon; 2012-07-16 at 08:58 PM.
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2012-07-17, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
1 vote for the Polymorph spells.
1 vote for Epic Spellcasting.
1 vote for Monk. (I would be willing to shift this to a specific vote for Monk Proficiencies if a few other people do likewise, making it a significant entity on the list.)
1 vote for Gate.
1 vote for Adamantine Horror.
1 vote for Manipulate Form.
1 vote for Diplomacy.
1 vote for Bloodlines.
I'll keep my last two in reserve for now.You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
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I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2012-07-17, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
While I'm in favor of narrowing down the entries to key elements, the lack of unarmed strike proficiency is just one of the problems with the way the Monk class is written.
- Unarmed Strike says "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed." What that apparently means is that the Monk can make off-hand attacks, but doesn't have the usual ˝ STR bonus damage limit. But that's not how it's written.
- The Bonus Feats class feature is clear right up to where it says "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them." When applying fighting styles or ACFs which change the bonus feats, does "these" refer to Monk bonus feats in general, or just the 6 feats mentioned in the base class?
- Many Monk abilities (AC Bonus, Flurry of Blows, Fast Movement) only work if the Monk is unarmored. But Evasion works if the Monk is unarmored or wearing light armor. Huh?
- Similarly, the Monk's Fast Movement is nifty, but is completely useless in relation to their Flurry of Blows.
- Ki Strike says "At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki." They don't say what ki is, or define it in the Glossary.
- Diamond Body says "a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds." but that's a Supernatural ability.Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise.
- The Monk can use a Quivering Palm attack "once a week". Is that an interval or a calendar week?
- Tongue of the Sun and Moon lets the Monk "speak with any living creature". Can the creature respond? What about if the creature doesn't normally speak? Can the Monk understand if it does?
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2012-07-17, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Yeah, a lot of it is bad. But the rest just doesn't make me facepalm quite as hard as the unarmed strike oversight does.
[*]Many Monk abilities (AC Bonus, Flurry of Blows, Fast Movement) only work if the Monk is unarmored. But Evasion works if the Monk is unarmored or wearing light armor. Huh?Last edited by Draz74; 2012-07-17 at 03:33 PM.
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2012-07-17, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
1. bonus feats: this isn't because the class was badly written. it's because the monk was published before the introduction of ACFs. in other words, it is the ACFs that are badly written in this instance, not the monk class itself.
2. fast movement: a Druid's spellcasting is completely useless in relation to their wildshape as is. a rogue's trap sense is completely useless in relation to their trap finding (if you find the trap, you don't need trap sense). having unrelated class features doesn't mean that the class is badly written. unfocused, yes. badly written, no.
3. ki strike: the description following the part you described explains exactly what ki does for a monk.78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
Where did you start yours?
The PCs were already a special forces type unit in a kingdom's military, so the campaign started in the general's office.
Extended Homebrew Signature
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2012-07-17, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-07-17, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
The problem with the monk is that it looks like a really cool, versatile, and effective class on paper, whereas in reality it's nothing of the sort. Bad options that look bad aren't such a big problem because nobody will use them. Bad options that look good, on the other hand, are a common It's A Trap for newbies.
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
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2012-07-17, 04:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
"We need the excuse of fiction to stage what we truly are." ~ Slavoj Žižek, The Pervert’s Guide to Cinema
"El bien más preciado es la libertad" ~ Valeriano Orobón Fernández, A las barricadas
"If civilization has an opposite, it is war." ~ Ursula K. Le Guin, The Left Hand of Darkness
Roguish | We Were Rogue | [3.5] Greek Mythology Variant | [3.5] The Fey Compendium
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2012-07-17, 04:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2012-07-17, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc