Triggering content in #875

[ti'esar]

Was someone you know sacrificed by a vampire lizardman to appease his death god in real life?

So you get to arbitrarily use a literally oots character when someone might be offended by something you don't find offensive but we don't get to say, "Well was your ____ killed by Malack in the 30's?"

I can sort of understand the distinction here, but yeah, double standard ahoy.

[Tev]

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[Tengu_temp]

Also, "trigger warnings" are a meme that needs to die.

No. They serve a specific purpose - to warn people with traumatic memories that the content of the comic (or whatever) might bring those memories up. It doesn't matter if you personally don't care about it, it's extremely important for the people who do have such memories.

[Howler Dagger]

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[Terraoblivion]

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[Tengu_temp]

From my perspective, it seems you are mad because Rich is portraying the historical event in question as EVIL.

Wow. Nice strawman.

[Domino Quartz]

One of my grandfathers died of bowel cancer. Does that mean I should be offended by this?

[stevem]

1. It highlights how evil Malack is and, by contrast, that Durkon is right to oppose him.

2. It is art.

3. It is comedy.

The comment works on many levels. And requiring a comedic artist to be politically correct misses the point or art and comedy completely.

[Ellye]

The holocaust is a historical event, not a recent tragedy. Yes, there are living relatives of people that died in said tragedy, but no one is making light of that.

The comic isn't joking about the holocaust. Much to the contrary - it is being used to highlight an extreme level of evilness and coldness.

Straying too much into real-world discussion, but I don't think that the correct stance regarding ugly events of the past is to pretend that they didn't happen.

Edit: To be fair, I'll concede that the reference did jump out for me when I read this strip, because I honestly also never expected to see it played out so directly in OotS.

[Chessgeek]

Was someone you know sacrificed by a vampire lizardman to appease his death god in real life?

If only this thread was more light-hearted, I would practically beg to sig that.

Oh uh yeah, the forum topic. Evil villain is evil. Rich is not suggesting that what Malack is suggesting is in any way okay. Nor is he belittling the incident by having one of his characters in a web comic consider something like it.

And if we want to discuss offensive occurrences, the Colosseum is also a reference to a horrible time period, the only difference is that it was millennia in the past, not decades.

[Tev]

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[Terraoblivion]

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[Jarian]

I'm not going to touch this debate with a ten-foot pole. However, I think a few people could benefit from some sage advice, so I'm going to drop this here.

What you should recognize - what everyone arguing anything should recognize - is that there is a possibility that you are wrong. Rather than just try to muster arguments against that possibility, try to give it a fair consideration; even if it doesn't change your mind, it can help broaden your perspective, which will make it easier to avoid destructive conflicts [...] in the future.

[Carry2]

Now, if OotS had a reference to a specific recent murder spree, that wouldn't be okay by me either.

I don't consider this a relevant distinction either. Whether murders occur on a random and sporadic basis or as a single concerted massacre, they can still be pretty traumatic for the relatives.

So, yeah, I maybe found Malack's remarks slightly off-colour, but I had worse reactions to, for example, Nale's extracurriculars in Cliffport. For better or worse, this is what the comic is. I don't think you should suddenly get special consideration because this one mention of a potential act of savage, inhuman atrocity within an imaginary world coincidentally overlapped the concerns of your personal emotional sphere.

[Tengu_temp]

Straying too much into real-world discussion, but I don't think that the correct stance regarding ugly events of the past is to pretend that they didn't happen.

Which is why I never said that. There's a difference between "pretend it doesn't happen" and "don't reference it in your webcomic".

[Koo Rehtorb]

No, but quite a few people died in "some sort of special chamber...to make the process more efficient." It's also rather more specific than simply getting stabbed with a knife, evoking a very specific crime against humanity conducted in a very specific way.

I think it's a stretch.

But even if it wasn't, then could you lay out specific criteria for when something isn't okay to reference?

Does there have to be a certain number of people affected by a tragedy for it to become taboo? How specific does it have to be? Is making a cancer reference unacceptable because of how many people die of cancer every year?

[Quorothorn]

I, personally, feel that "trigger warnings" do have great merit, and perhaps in time they will spread, become an accepted norm as a more detailed "ratings system", and that will be helpful.

That said, they have NOT gained anything like widespread acceptance to this point, and so I feel blaming Burlew in particular for this is kind of missing the point. I have read many books that did worse than anything that has appeared in OOTS with absolutely no warning whatsoever. (In fact, one might note that video games, TV shows, and movies are the only things really "tagged" even in a general/vague sense. The closest published works based around the written word get is some "For Mature Readers" on stuff like very violent comics or, I'unno, the Book of Vile Darkness.)

I did not see a direct reference, but a room for efficient killing of people isn't exactly an idea unique to one specific regime. Painting the Giant as denying or belittling some of the worst recorded acts of mankind because he wanted to tell a joke is not being fair to him or his work. Saying that him mentioned the idea of a room for mass murder is "for shock value" and that he is "using the suffering of others to bolster his own, unrelated message" is definitely not.

Also? Yeah, this.

[Toastkart]

No. They serve a specific purpose - to warn people with traumatic memories that the content of the comic (or whatever) might bring those memories up. It doesn't matter if you personally don't care about it, it's extremely important for the people who do have such memories.

This is a waste. All comics, all media everywhere would need such warnings. For everything that anyone could ever conceive of being offensive. Cue censorship. Everyone has traumatic memories of one sort or another, and no one's suffering is greater than anyone elses.

[Whelk]

Was it a deliberate parallel? That it is similar to a real-world event doesn't mean it was put in with that specific event in mind. I didn't even make the connection until I accidentally read this thread instead of the "New comic is up" thread, and we have veterans in the family. If it was a specific reference to a specific event, and not simply the general concept, I imagine it was in an attempt to bring to light just how terrible the villain characters are by pointing to the parallel.

The event I'm assuming being referred to here in this thread isn't the only usage of "chambers" being used to kill people, and not the first, either. I can see how it could bring up painful memories, and I sympathize, but I don't think the author needs to be scolded and made out to be a horrible person for the content of this strip. We've had plots and stories that have involved all manner of horrible and terrible things committed against mankind (or humanoidkind, I guess, in this case), many of which could be similar to events that people have experienced or been close to in their personal lives, but because this is ultimately a fiction comic used to tell a fictional story in a fictional universe, they shouldn't be taken too seriously.

[Xzeno]

The comment works on many levels. And requiring a comedic artist to be politically correct misses the point or art and comedy completely.

Political correctness to one degree or another is usually a baseline requirement to maintain a viewership. People just like to act like it's not political correctness, because they like to pretend political correctness is a dirty word. Political correctness isn't a bad thing; it's a basic standard of decency. Of course I don't question the author's freedom of speech. I'm just saying that a violation of the implicitly established standards of political correctness in the comic may be cause for complaint.

I don't know. I'm ambivalent. I find it kind of odd that I'm not willing to say that the people complaining are wrong, but I'm apparently the only one willing to say I thought it was hilarious. But really, if you can't sympathize with the views of the offended parties, you should really examine the situation more carefully. I feel like there is clearly a qualitative reason to be offended here and if you honestly don't get why that is, that's on you, not on the offended parties. There is room for debate as to what should or should not be in the comic of course, but I don't think that a disregard for the offended or a questioning of the right to be offended should be an exalted point of view.

[Terraoblivion]

I think it's a stretch.

But even if it wasn't, then could you lay out specific criteria for when something isn't okay to reference?

Does there have to be a certain number of people affected by a tragedy for it to become taboo? How specific does it have to be? Is making a cancer reference unacceptable because of how many people die of cancer every year?

It's pretty simple, really. Are people who were personally affected or who has somebody close to them who was? Did you check if they were okay with it? And finally, and most importantly, how are you going to treat the topic? The more indifference to the victims you show, the less okay it is. And just using it as a quick shorthand to go "this guy is evil" is about the highest amount of indifference you can show, short of actually making fun of the victims or praising the perpetrators.

[ti'esar]

I don't consider this a relevant distinction either. Whether murders occur on a random and sporadic basis or as a single concerted massacre, they can still be pretty traumatic for the relatives.

So, yeah, I maybe found Malack's remark a little off-colour, but I have similar attitudes to, for example, Nale's extracurriculars in Cliffport. For better or worse, this is what the comic is. I don't think you should suddenly get special consideration because this one mention of a potential act of savage, inhuman atrocity coincidentally overlapped the concerns of your personal emotional sphere.

Amen.

Honestly, the whole idea of trigger warnings makes no real sense. Some things are certainly more likely to press people's emotional buttons than others, but it's absurd to try and draw an arbitrary line on which ones need to be warned against - and if you're not going to draw a line, then pretty much every work imaginable (except for some children's literature, I guess) needs a list of "triggers".

[CoffeeIncluded]

This is a waste. All comics, all media everywhere would need such warnings. For everything that anyone could ever conceive of being offensive. Cue censorship. Everyone has traumatic memories of one sort or another, and no one's suffering is greater than anyone elses.

So you think we should get rid of content ratings for movies? Trigger warnings are much the same thing, they're just a way of saying, "By the way, this piece of media has X, Y, and Z in it, just so you know what to expect."

As for the specific topic in question...It didn't sit right with me, but there's a lot in the comic that left me with a pit in my stomach (although this is probably the first time in a while I've had that "swift drop" feeling so quickly when reading this comic), and that's all I'm going to say on the subject.

[Aljada]

As someone with an extremely close relationship with the genocide in question, I understand why some people may be offended. However, I am certain Rich did not mean this as a joke.
One of the primary reasons that the Holocaust was so terrifying was that the extermination were methodical, efficient and government-supported. Malack making this reference here serves to highlight that while he may be personable, he is still absolutely Evil, and that Chaotic Evil is no more dangerous or inhumane than Lawful Evil.

[Warbull]

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[FujinAkari]

Ok, what the heck is this thread even about?

People seem to be claiming that Rich is making a joke about the holocaust... where?

I sure don't see it. I see that he considers the arena unnecessarily inefficient, but how does that point to the holocaust any more than Stalin's Russia, Ancient Rome during the decimations, or France during the height of the guillotine?

It really seems to me that people are deciding what Rich means and then getting mad at him because of their own assumptions.

[Tengu_temp]

I am glad I live in a culture that still honors the concept of free speech. No topic should be off limits for jokes or even serious debate. Don't like it? Grow up.

Free speech doesn't mean what you think it means. Good night.

[RPGuru1331]

I can sort of understand the distinction here, but yeah, double standard ahoy.

Malak is referring to a specific thing. It's really, really, really clear.

The comic isn't joking about the holocaust. Much to the contrary - it is being used to highlight an extreme level of evilness and coldness.

Is it for the sake of those affected by it? No? Then it's irrelevant.

And if we want to discuss offensive occurrences, the Colosseum is also a reference to a horrible time period, the only difference is that it was millennia in the past, not decades.

If you know any Roman subjects who lost friends in a colosseum, then that's a shame, and they have every right to be shocked and angry at those comics. (Also, the colloseums weren't only used for blood sport at all)

[Zale]

He's evil. This is showing us how he is evil.

Why is this a problem again? We're fine with Belkar doing unspeakable things to people but not Malack outlining his plans for mass murder?

[Warbull]

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