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2013-06-06, 08:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Yes, exactly. The nobles' objection was that playtime was over, not that Hinjo wasn't a viable leader. Absent the imminent threat of Xykon, there would have been a lot of grumbling and jockeying for position before all their hidden schemes that Shojo tolerated by pitting them against one another were systematically exposed and shut down. Even the first wave of ninjas sent in #414 only appeared because the nobles (mistakenly) thought they could save their own skins from Xykon with Hinjo out of the way.
Rich Burlew
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2013-06-06, 08:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2011
Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
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2013-06-06, 08:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- Raleigh NC
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Post cleared as ninjaed by Giant and therefore irrelevant.
Respectfully,
Brian P.Last edited by pendell; 2013-06-06 at 08:55 PM.
"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."
-Valery Legasov in Chernobyl
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2013-06-06, 09:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Because a sizeable proportion of the citizens can also cast Foolproof Detect Evil on members of their government, including the supreme leader. There. Problem solved. The handy thing about information is that it can't be easily monopolised.
Yes, it's possible to fool DE. My point is that, if you want the kind of game where you actually have to think about the morality of suspects and gather evidence for specific wrongdoing, don't have an alignment system. Otherwise, your effort is basically wasted on anything except bigger, better versions of Detect Evil.
Yes, not all criminals are evil. But this, by definition, means they aren't doing any real harm, so there's not much point to going after them. Once they do start doing much harm, or even according to some definitions, thinking hard about it, they'll show up automagically on Evil-Dar.
Yes, it is technically possible to be Evil while only committing only minor Evil acts, but this is just a question of recalibrating your sensors, or in effect, what counts as 'Evil' at all. No-one disputes that there is a certain threshold of throbbing crimson malevolence that absolutely merits smiting, and if you can magically detect Evil, you might as well be able to detect Evil Enough. It isn't really any more vaguely defined.
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2013-06-06, 09:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
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- The Chi
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
That sourcebook probably wrapped up the points to be made about possible levels of evil, though whether a paladin is obligated to take immediate action upon detecting evil is a different question from the one I will take a stance in. I have given the opinion that it is possible for authorities to take some sort of action against evil people on detection alone without themselves committing an evil act. My idea of evil in alignment was along the lines of the middle case given in the sourcebook (which I think alone represents standard D&D), with only seriously villanous people registering, not a third of humanity.
Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2013-06-07 at 08:38 AM. Reason: Fixed language. Elaborated a bit. Put in the entire original quote
The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
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2013-06-06, 09:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2006
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- Arad, Israel
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Know Alignment was removed in 3.X.
I could see Belkar's (and Xykon and Redcloak if they showed without an army) evil aura being sufficient "probable cause" to have a large chunk of the police force sent to tail him wherever he goes.
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2013-06-06, 09:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2003
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- Philadelphia, PA
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
If you think that the alignment system is inherently flawed and needs to be thrown out if you want any flexibility or subtlety or moral uncertainty at all, then I could see how my narrative that assumes the exact opposite would be confusing.
This makes your initial question, "Why doesn't your story reinforce my simplistic reductionist view of a system that I don't like?" And the answer is, because I am writing partly to specifically refute those views. Characters like Shojo and Tarquin are designed partly to make the story more complex, more nuanced, and more applicable to the moral complexity of the real world. If they can't be simplistically pegged, then I've succeeded.Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2013-06-06, 09:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
I'm going to limit this to a few point, since I'm pretty tired.
* For the record, I don't out-of-hand reject any of the alignment criteria which have been suggested in this thread, either by yourself or others. I am open to the possibility of alignment-based-on-consequence, alignment-based-on-temperament-or-goal, alignment-based-on-methods, alignment-based-on-local-standards, or any weighting or recombination of the above. There are good arguments for each of these. But pulling on one thread here always yanks at another part of the fabric.
* Even in the scenario where the nobles have no significant armed forces- which is at odds with all the tropes of feudal nobility and Hinjo's eagerness to enlist their aid during the battle for azure city- you're still describing a situation akin to Menzoberranzan politics, which is neither L nor G. This kind of 'uncertainty' was not being resolved with reform, it was being resolved with knives in the senate.
* Yes, I can make up the details in my head on this point as to why Shojo is CG and as to why Tarquin is LE. But that means I'm making up my own story in which it happens that Shojo is unambiguously CG and Tarquin is clear-cut LE.
[The] moral lesson of Shojo is already front and center. There is a difference between, "This story has a lesson about the consequences of your actions"...
TL:DR- Fine, I must have gotten the wrong impression. But that impression was easy to get.
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2013-06-06, 09:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Well, yes. And that is a large part of why I find those characters, and others like them (Miko, Redcloak, possibly Haley)- to be interesting. But they are interesting in large part because they do not unambiguously belong under their alignment labels. Everything you've done to make them interesting also makes their lawness, goodness, evilness or chaoticness less distinct. I don't consider that a problem with the characters or the story, but my point is that- given the degree to which lengthy and acrimonious debates on this topic apparently distress you- it might be better to either (A) forego the labels or (B) colour within the lines.
Because whether you intend them as examples of their alignment or not, or consider it your job, is beside the point. They are in the story, shoehorned into these ill-fitting boxes, with big fat labels on their heads, and possibly propagating yet-more confusing notions about the alignment system. Whether or not that is your goal, it is a potential side-effect of your actions.
.Last edited by Carry2; 2013-06-06 at 09:59 PM.
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2013-06-06, 10:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
When you only have nine boxes, yet you want to have varied multi-facted characters, that's sort of going to happen.
For example, Belkar (v1.0 if necessary) and Xykon are clearly Chaotic Evil. Yet they have very different personalities and reactions to circumstances.
Sometimes when you only have nine boxes, you're going to have to expand them a bit.
PS: When you see a person for a very short time, it might be a... mistake to try to use that and only that to judge the totality of their alignment. Mostly because a person isn't a walking, talking, 100% on point exmplar of Sterotypical Alignment Poster Child.
Eugene Greenhilt being the prime example.
If all we say of Roy was him abandoning Elan and lying about the starmetal, would people have pegged him as LG?
That's the undeniable side-effect of minor characters in a story.Last edited by Porthos; 2013-06-06 at 10:19 PM.
Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
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2013-06-06, 10:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2003
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
"Hey, this bad thing happened in a mostly Evil city where a bunch of mostly Evil dark elves who worship totally Evil demons made a bunch of mostly Evil choices, so that means that the same thing MUST happen in a mostly Good city where a bunch of mostly Good humans who worship mostly Good gods and are likely to make mostly Good choices."
So, your argument is that I'm supposed to dance on a string and write the scenes you want to read? Is that it? And that I'm somehow failing in my duties if I don't?
The story is provided as-is, with no guarantees that it will answer every question you might have. If you don't like it, write your own story. Either a totally new one, or write some fanfiction in your head that fixes the perceived problems. But either way, you're not getting what you want from me. They have the alignments they have because of all the reasons I've already said on this thread in great length, and that's all you're getting. If you can't be satisfied with that, that's on you.
The story was about the consequences of his lie to the paladins, not to the nobles or the general populace. And the result of those actions was that one of the people he was lying to went nuts and killed him when they found out. That's it. That's all it was about. All this other stuff you care about with the government and the nobles and Law or Chaos—none of that matters to the story. That's just background information. It's not necessary, it's not interesting, it's just set-up. I wasn't making ANY point about the efficiency of Shojo's policies, because this is not a political treatise. It's an adventure story. If it fell apart, that had more to do with thrusting the protagonists into a less certain situation where they couldn't run to their patron to fix it.
Not that easy, since these characters have existed for years and you're the first person to complain.Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2013-06-06, 10:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Genuine question/my two cents: Tarquin is intended to be complex? I thought the whole point of his rant on alignment was that he was deluded. He looked at the boxes of the alignment system and said "those don't apply to me", when in fact he fits perfectly into them. He claims to be morally grey and working for the greater good, but he's really just a horrible monster that needs to be put down. Evil with a capital E.
I mean, that is a commentary of sorts on the alignment system, but from my perspective on the character, I don't really get "nuanced".Awesome Cyborg Doom Monkey avatar by Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins. Offer up your robo-bananas to him.
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2013-06-06, 10:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Tarquin has to be one of the goofiest, friendliest evil dictators a person is likely to ever meet, and his sons are very important to him. He has a long-term plan that has involved putting a lot of trust in some very powerful people.
Sure, Tarquin is Evil, but he's not generic Evil. To put it another way, would you ever confuse Tarquin for some other villainous dictator?Last edited by Cavenskull; 2013-06-06 at 10:56 PM.
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2013-06-06, 11:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2012
Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Tarquin makes these claims because he's either:
- horribly self-deluded, or
- knows what Good characters want/need to hear to justify his Evil actions.
The first option relies on the 'But I'm so nice and friendly!' to delude himself into believing he's Good. But given his grand plan (at least part of which relies on the fact he runs an Evil Empire), his general genre-savvy and the genius political play he ran on Elan, I strongly favor the second option: Tarquin is just putting his Charisma to work and tells the most blatant bald-faced lies even to his Good son.There are no mistakes, because there are no rules. NONE. No, not even that one.
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2013-06-06, 11:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2003
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2013-06-06, 11:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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- empty space
Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
I think it's pretty rare for a character to fit neatly within one of the nine (!) D&D alignment boxes with no possible arguments about their actions fitting a different alignment. It's a loose framework, there are only two axes.
Rich seems to have a pretty good understanding of the alignment system in D&D. I think the characters mostly fit the labels they're given. Your disagreement doesn't make it Objectively Wrong.Last edited by rodneyAnonymous; 2013-06-07 at 12:02 AM.
I like semicolons; they make me feel smart.
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2013-06-06, 11:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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- Vancouver, BC
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
There don't seem to be a whole lot of people who agree with you about this whole "Tarquin and Shojo should have similar alignments," thing jftr; there are a number of counterarguments to your analysis that you have not addressed (which, admittedly, is understandable, since there have been many from multiple sources).
But the results of that sort of arguing aside, what, exactly, is the problem here? You said it doesn't detract from the story; what other reason is there to care, say, about how much Shojo's proven his alignment to be Chaotic Good? I fear I may be misunderstanding your point here, because it sounds like you're concerned that people will misunderstand the DnD alignment system from reading the comic, and I neither think that is the case nor that it would really matter anyway.Last edited by BroomGuys; 2013-06-06 at 11:55 PM.
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2013-06-07, 02:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Just a small nitpick, Azure City's forces were routed, the High Priest of the 12 Gods slain. Sure, had Miko delayed 12 seconds and Soon destroyed Xykon and killed Redcloak, the castle would not have exploded with the gate. But there is still the massive issue of all the Hobgoblins to deal with.
The city still would have fallen had Miko delayed.
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2013-06-07, 02:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
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2013-06-07, 02:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
I think the Chaotic alignment is a pretty easy one across the board: just don't have a personal code at all, and ignore all the external codes as well (insomuch as you can). If you live in a Chaotic society, that just means the law will get in your way less when you don't really care about it.
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2013-06-07, 02:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Feudal nobility in Europe, maybe--Azure City is more based on Eastern ideas. (Although, even in Europe, the amount of men a noble had in their army was directly related to their wealth and influence--minor nobles wouldn't have many at all). As for Hinjo's eagerness to enlist their help, these were desperate times--so desperate that he was willing to get anybody out of prison who might help in the fight. There are quite a few nobles, and even if they each only have small forces, they would add up to quite a big difference on battle day!
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2013-06-07, 05:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Where by "can't be" you mean "as long as a Sizable Proportion of the citizens can be declared to be arbitrarily high level spellcasters."
Yes, it's possible to fool DE. My point is that, if you want the kind of game where you actually have to think about the morality of suspects and gather evidence for specific wrongdoing, don't have an alignment system.
Yes, not all criminals are evil. But this, by definition, means they aren't doing any real harm, so there's not much point to going after them. Once they do start doing much harm, or even according to some definitions, thinking hard about it, they'll show up automagically on Evil-Dar.
"Detect exactly and only people who need to be stopped, unfoolably, while everyone knows this is in fact the spell you're casting" is not 4th level at most, or epic level at most, or a spell that fits in the D&D magic system at all.
Yes, it is technically possible to be Evil while only committing only minor Evil acts, but this is just a question of recalibrating your sensors, or in effect, what counts as 'Evil' at all. No-one disputes that there is a certain threshold of throbbing crimson malevolence that absolutely merits smiting,
You're the only one who's been trying to convince him that the alignment system gets in his way in this thread. So this reads like you telling him, "You should hop on your right foot instead of walking with both feet" for three days, and when he finally says rather angrily, "Look, I'm not having a problem walking the way I am," suggesting that walking with both feet clearly angers him.Last edited by Kish; 2013-06-07 at 06:43 AM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2013-06-07, 05:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Yes, it's possible to fool DE. My point is that, if you want the kind of game where you actually have to think about the morality of suspects and gather evidence for specific wrongdoing, don't have an alignment system.
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2013-06-07, 06:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
It's possible, but hardly guaranteed. The hobgoblin army was, I suspect, only acting in this kind of organized unison due to the power and influence of Xykon and Redcloak's direction. The loss of those 2 leaders would likely have been a large blow to the morale and cohesion of their army. While it may not have been easy or immediate I think high level characters like Hinjo, Haley, Durkon, V, and Elan, and probably a much more promptly raised Roy, would have been able to successfully divide and drive out the remaining threat.
Last edited by pearl jam; 2013-06-07 at 06:46 AM.
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2013-06-07, 06:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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2013-06-07, 06:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Xykon made an actual effort to be as un-involved in the planning and direction of the battle as possible. He was absent and invisible for the army's deployment and the initial engagements, and after he was revealed he was never in a position to give orders - nor did he try. Even if he'd done exactly what the plan called for, he would have been completely separated from the rest of the army for most of the battle, not in a position to give orders. By the time Redcloak was separated from the rest of the army, both the outer and inner walls had already been breached, and the Azurite army had already begun to rout or desert.
The loss of those 2 leaders would likely have been a large blow to the morale and cohesion of their army.
While it may not have been easy or immediate I think high level characters like Hinjo, Haley, Durkon, V, and Elan, and probably a much more promptly raised Roy, would have been able to successfully divide and drive out the remaining threat.
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2013-06-07, 07:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
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2013-06-07, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
I think the premise is that following a personal code is a Lawful activity in and of itself. A code being system of rules, I further surmise the "code" under discussion is a particularly systemic one and the rules prescribing clear behaviors.
Chaotic aligned are instead guided by vague principles that provide a great deal of flexibility.The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
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2013-06-07, 08:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
: But you can't make an omelette without ruthlessly crushing dozens of eggs beneath your steel boot and then publicly disemboweling the chickens that laid them as a warning to others.
avatar made by Haruki-kun
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2013-06-07, 08:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar