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2013-06-07, 08:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
I think we can take it as author confirmation that Nale's alignment is not as straightforward as "Lawful Evil, and Rich disagrees with the interpretations of people who would say otherwise."
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2013-06-07, 09:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
I don't really want to turn this into a big argument. I just wanted to point out that I don't think it's an open & shut case that the deaths of Xykon & Redcloak would have had little impact on the possibility of Hinjo and company retaking the city. The situation you lay out is certainly feasible, but I think there are historical precedents out there for battles whose outcomes were seemingly forgone conclusions turning suddenly upon the loss of an important leader, so I think my scenario is an equally valid possibility to present.
Neither scenario is the one the author needed for the progression of his story, which required Xykon and Redcloak to survive, obviously. Haley's opinion about their ability to drive out the hobgoblins, however, was not based on a situation in which Xykon and Redcloak are eliminated, and Roy was raised. It's not out the the question that these changes could have changed her opinion. It's even possible under those circumstances that Soon and the rest of the ghostly defenders would have been able to play a role in ridding the city of invaders.
So, while I think it is certainly possible that the situation would have remained much the same, particularly in the short term, I think it's a little too strong to dismiss the possibility that Xykon and Redcloak's deaths could have changed the outcome quite drastically.Last edited by pearl jam; 2013-06-07 at 09:30 AM.
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2013-06-07, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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2013-06-07, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
There are also battles where the loss of a leader did not effect the outcome (Nelson at Trafalgar comes to mind).
Carry2, I adore and appreciate that Rich does not create paper-thin stereotypes within the confines of the D&D system. Your proposal to color within the lines is a poor one, for it negates the most important function of storytelling: tension. If Good characters always only acted their alignment, and all Evil acts were done only by Evil people, there would be no surprise in anything. Characters would never exceed the boundaries of their alignment description. A character such as Miko would be impossible, because she would never slay Shojo. Most of the great dramatic moments would be lost in this story because the character would be predictable, stolid, and even forbidden to do what the story requires.
By all means, compose a story along your own lines. See how easy it is to craft a stirring narrative with definitions such as yours.The Giant says: Yes, I am aware TV Tropes exists as a website. ... No, I have never decided to do something in the comic because it was listed on TV Tropes. I don't use it as a checklist for ideas ... and I have never intentionally referenced it in any way.
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2013-06-07, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
I am honestly not trying to write your story for you, and if I've given that impression, I apologise. (Actually, a large part of the reason why I haven't given more constructive suggestions here and elsewhere is because I don't want to come off as trying to do your job. Which is, in any case, something I highly doubt I could do.)
FWIW, I've held off writing fanfic in the OOTSverse in part because I want to see where the various characters wind up (or came from) once the final arcs wrap up. I do want to see what you have to say on these topics before I even contemplate trying to fill in the gaps, so to speak. So while I may give the impression of being unduly critical, I just have very little to add to the 70-80% of your writing I wholly agree with. I wouldn't be sticking around otherwise.
But, quite separately from whether these debates bother you personally, some idiot might get Start of Darkness on loan and come away with the idea that it's legit for his paladin PC to slaughter goblin toddlers*. Which nobody here wants.
So, I mean, if you want to take this in a constructive spirit and say to yourself "Hmm, that's interesting, maybe I'll bear that in mind going forward", then... that would be good. Or... don't.
* Yes, I know. Dramatic impetus. Good people can do bad things. Maybe all the Falling happened off-panel. But since that context is all off-panel, and going by the evidence of some vigorous forum debates, at least a few people got exactly the wrong impression.
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2013-06-07, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
I would be astounded if anyone ever even claimed, "Before reading Start of Darkness I thought kill-on-sight racial morality was bad, but since it depicts paladins slaughtering goblin toddlers, I now know this is a legitimate interpretation of Good."
A number of people twist themselves into whatever contortions are necessary to justify refusing to accept a fictional work's clear and unambiguous moral message which contradicts the beliefs which they had before it and which they wish to continue to apply to works set in the same universe after reading it: News at eleven.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2013-06-07, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
I'll try to address a few other points in the thread later, but that isn't exactly my suggestion. I am suggesting that either (A) making the characters' alignments unambiguous OR (B) avoid insisting, explicitly or implicitly that they do have a certain alignment, would probably help to avoid acrimony and confusion on this point. For the record, I also consider many of Rich's ambiguously-aligned characters to be fascinating psychological studies, and do not advocate reducing them to paper-thin stereotypes. All I'm saying is, taking some pastel shade of orange and saying "it's Red. Definitely Red" is going to invite disagreement from certain quarters.
(I'm not sure that clearl-aligned characters need to be monodimensional, though. Celia, for example, is pretty unambiguously LG, and I consider her a pretty interesting character, given the tension between her, e.g, pacifism and greater-than-usual need for self-preservation. But anyway.)
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2013-06-07, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
If your basic argument is that literary examples don't influence our take on morality (even fictional fantasy morality,) but simply gives us ammunition to rationalise whatever we already believed, then IIRC that kind of defeats the author's avowed purpose in coming up with characters like Redcloak. *shrugs*
However, I wasn't really thinking of impact on a person's real-world moral outlook, so much as the milder potential for serious disagreement at some GM's gaming table. Not helping the hobby, is all I'm saying.
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2013-06-07, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
It isn't.
However, I wasn't really thinking of impact on a person's real-world moral outlook, so much as the milder potential for serious disagreement at some GM's gaming table. Not helping the hobby, is all I'm saying.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2013-06-07, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
I would be astounded if anyone ever even claimed, "Before reading Start of Darkness I thought kill-on-sight racial morality was bad, but since it depicts paladins slaughtering goblin toddlers, I now know this is a legitimate interpretation of Good."
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2013-06-07, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
No. No, it would not.
We cannot even agree whether vigilantism is Lawful or Chaotic or neither, or whether prosecuting thought crimes is Evil or just sensible policy. I do not see how it is possible to make alignments unambiguous without reducing characters to paper-thin stereotypes. To avoid ambiguity, all gray areas must be avoided lest some special snowflake break his widdle bwain.
In any case, I see no problem with alignment ambiguity and declaring alignments, as Rich has done. Alignment isn't a straitjacket. If you have a problem with that, it's a problem that is baked into D&D in this edition. The problem of morality is one that philosophers have wrestled with since the word philosophy was invented. Good luck trying to write an unambiguously aligned Good character.The Giant says: Yes, I am aware TV Tropes exists as a website. ... No, I have never decided to do something in the comic because it was listed on TV Tropes. I don't use it as a checklist for ideas ... and I have never intentionally referenced it in any way.
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2013-06-07, 11:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
If you have a problem with that, it's a problem that is baked into D&D in this edition.
Oh, wait, it looks like that's what you were saying. Never mind
Now, if Carry2 has a problem with alignment ambiguity...sorry, that's always going to happen. If you want a perfect example of alignment, personality, and choices not being correlated at all, look here.
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2013-06-07, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
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2013-06-07, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
I don't understand what you are saying. I suggested that Start of Darkness might give a reader the impression that it is acceptable for paladins PCs to slaughter goblin toddlers. I did not refer to any particular impact on real-world moral behaviour, though I suppose such a thing might happen. I don't consider it especially likely, though.
But this point is essentially the same I was making about the similarities, superficial or otherwise, between Shojo and Tarquin's approaches, whose directly opposite alignments apparently hinge on a great deal of off-panel or barely-mentioned context. I was not the first person to comment on Shojo's alignment being an informed attribute, while Tarquin's lawfulness requires massive reliance on consequentialist ethics, and that has all kinds of troublesome ripple effects.
It's contributing to the basic problem that Law and Chaos, in practice, don't mean anything in D&D. Leave alone the idea that your shiny new paladin can basically do whatever the hell they want as long as the mission is important enough, and get away with it- because whatever the moral message of SoD might be, it's certainly not unambiguous.
.Last edited by Carry2; 2013-06-07 at 11:33 AM.
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2013-06-07, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Only if you ignore the consequences of all the actions. Pretty sure the narrative is making Redcloak sympathetic there.
Let's not forget, the story was not centered around those paladins. It was not their story. What happens to them offscreen when they try to use their powers and find out they no longer work is nearly irrelevant to the story.
It certainly is to Redcloak.Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
Ongoing: OOTS by Page Count
Coming Soon: OOTS by Final Post Count II: The Post Counts Always Chart Twice
Coming Later: The Stick Awards III: The Search for More Votes
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No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style - Jhereg Proverb
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2013-06-07, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
What exactly is Carry2's proposed alignment system?
The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
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2013-06-07, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
BTW, I've been on this board a long time. I've been reading comments about OotS all over the web.
Do you want to know approximately how many people I have seen that said, "Well let's not forget, those goblin children had it coming. I mean, Paladins killed them and didn't suffer any consequences".
Probably no more than five.
Do you want to know approximately how many people now say they want the Goblins to 'win' and that the Sapphire Guard (and the gods they work for) are a bunch of genocidal jerks who deserve to die horrbily and painfully?
Too many to count.
I don't think you need to worry on the 'people getting the wrong idea from SoD' angle. If anything, it might have tilted the scale a bit too much into the pro-Goblins territory.
The storytelling was that powerful to many people.Last edited by Porthos; 2013-06-07 at 12:21 PM.
Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
Ongoing: OOTS by Page Count
Coming Soon: OOTS by Final Post Count II: The Post Counts Always Chart Twice
Coming Later: The Stick Awards III: The Search for More Votes
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No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style - Jhereg Proverb
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2013-06-07, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
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2013-06-07, 12:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
No they don't. As I argued at length before, Shojo is a reasonable authority figure trying to save the world and his people; might not prove that he's Good, but it's not much of a logical leap. He doesn't have to go save a dozen orphans from a fire just for us to believe in the story that he's Good. Shojo goes behind the backs of an entire order of paladins, trumps up some charges to rope Roy & co into working for him, and jails Nale without trial and releases Belkar with Mark of Justice all in the name of the greater good of saving the world: decidedly Chaotic.
Tarquin murders a lot of people without giving it a second thought--Evil. Done. If we were to take any of his "greater good" rhetoric seriously, he would have to show some remorse, but he just does not care about the suffering of other people. Tarquin is a man of his word, tells technical truths instead of outright lies (which, as I've mentioned, O-Chul and Durkon both do,) and generally seeks to serve his own ends by working within the system. Therefore, Lawful. Where Shojo decides to disregard the law so he can help out the people he's hoping to help save the world, Tarquin uses the law to jail dissidents and have them brutally killed in a public arena.
The only similarity between the two of them is that they are both authority figures who are trying to get certain things done. Shojo uses Chaotic means to accomplish something Good (yes, his own interests are vested in the world not ending, but we don't need to be beaten over the head with how Good the secondary character that's helping to save the world is). Tarquin uses Lawful means to accomplish something Evil.
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2013-06-07, 12:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Which was the point I made in my prior post.
ETA to not double post:
Problem with this is, lots of people here don't agree with you about it being a shade of Orange.
Relatedly, people for years tried to claim that Belkar (v1.0 if we must) was anything other than Chaotic Evil.
Which is... amazing.
If people will argue in all seriousness over the alignment of someone like Belkar, I think trying to find unanimity over alignement discussion is pointless and fruitless.
Or to put it another way, if people can look at shade of color that Belkar was painted in and argue over it, how can one possibly conclude that they won't argue over characters with a bit more depth to them?Last edited by Porthos; 2013-06-07 at 12:34 PM.
Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
Ongoing: OOTS by Page Count
Coming Soon: OOTS by Final Post Count II: The Post Counts Always Chart Twice
Coming Later: The Stick Awards III: The Search for More Votes
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No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style - Jhereg Proverb
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2013-06-07, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
What you are bemoaning as writing that provokes undesired confusion, I would call "good writing, that does not insult the reader's intelligence".
That someone chooses to engage in acrimony due to their personal confusion over a non-trivial question is not something that is the author's responsibility. In fact, I would personally beg authors to not follow your advice.
BTW, my wife recently mentioned her appreciation for the movie X-Men, because it has one of the very few rationally argued reasons for pursuing a morally repugnant course that can be found in film. Yes, Magneto is evil and must be opposed, but at least one can appreciate he first started from a point of view that probably could be admired. Your advice? Do not write characters with such an annoying degree of ambiguity. Keep it simpler so that the reader does not have to apply moral reasoning, and might become peevish when they do not easily understand.I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2013-06-07, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Cause any GM will accept the siren cry from one of their player saying, "But Rich Burlew's paladins got to kill goblin toddlers, why can't mine?!"
Seriously, you're trying to blame potential role play experiences on Rich, when he is not in an official position of influence over the game. Any GM worth their won't take such an argument. Why are you proposing the possibility and blaming it on Rich?
I was not the first person to comment on Shojo's alignment being an informed attribute, while Tarquin's lawfulness requires massive reliance on consequentialist ethics, and that has all kinds of troublesome ripple effects.
It's contributing to the basic problem that Law and Chaos, in practice, don't mean anything in D&D.
Leave alone the idea that your shiny new paladin can basically do whatever the hell they want as long as the mission is important enough, and get away with it- because whatever the moral message of SoD might be, it's certainly not unambiguous.
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2013-06-07, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
The thing about having Objective alignment in D&D is that there's always a higher authority, until you get to the Alignment absolutes. When Miko killed Shojo, she was acting in a Lawful manner (Especially from her limited-vision persective). What she saw of Azure city, between Kubota and Shojo, was something that looked like a Chaotic Evil society masquerading as a Lawful Good one - Shojo's Good undermined the Law of Azure City, and nobles like Kubota undermined the Good. She just happened to fail to see Shojo's Good. And, Shojo made it very clear that the courts were his plaything (Even the very incarnations of Law and Good) - there was no mortal authority she could appeal his crimes to, so had to directly appeal the case to the Twelve Gods, and invoke the 0th law of the Paladin Code. However, the verdict was "Malicious Prosecution".
But... anyway. the point I was also going to make is that alignments are absolutes on a cosmic scale, but Relative on the mortal scale. This isn't to say definitions of good and evil and law and chaos vary from location from location, but instead the people within a closed (Or nearly-closed) system are judged by the whole material plane. D&D worlds usually assume a "Balance" of law and chaos and good and evil.
In an overwhelmingly-good paradise, the guy who kicks puppies and steals candy from babies pings as Evil, though his transgressions are minor compared to what good people can get away with in a "Balanced" society.
Likewise, someone in an overwhelmingly-"Evil" setting (Think the Grim Darkness of the 41st millenium) can ping as Good if they hold themselves to a higher moral standard than their peers, and engage in behaviors that alleviate the overall evil (Such as pressing for better conditions for slaves, and putting their desires aside to help and encourage others to do likewise). He may engage in evil par for the setting, but his actions and efforts are increasing the influence of altruism and good in the world (Perhaps even moreso and more effectively than an outright messiahnic figure)
In Overwhelmingly-Lawful settings, the muckraker going through all the 'technically legal' channels to raise noise about something he thinks is an injustice or is stifling his freedoms pings as Chaotic, even though he obeys the laws (at least while being watched). His acts are chaotic, because they're opening up freedoms and (Gradually) reducing the orderly regimentation of the setting.
In largely chaotic settings such as the Western Continent, Tarquin pings as Lawful because, although he tends to act on a whim and put himself outside the law, he's carving and establishing a world order, and directly strengthening the influence of Law in the setting, despite not being a stellar example of a lawful-acting person. A non-evil example of this sort of person is Sam Vimes from Discworld, who pretty much single-handedly built and established actual law and order in Anhk-Morpork despite having to work around and subvert the existing legal hurdles to do so. Batman is Lawful in the same vein - he is forced to bypass and work around existing legal hurdles to stop far worse transgressions. If the law worked, and cops weren't defunct or crooked, he'd be unnecessary, and could hang up his cape.
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2013-06-07, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
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2013-06-07, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
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2013-06-07, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
I don't get the impression from what Rich has said here that he's given to being terribly lenient with claimed-as-Lawful characters who abruptly shift from external codes to internal codes--and Miko only seemed to go from "follows what she perceives as the Twelve Gods' will reasonably well," which was an external code, to "does whatever she wants and declares the Twelve Gods must have wanted her to do it." So, based on what Rich has said here, I would guess that he would classify post-Fall Miko as Chaotic.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2013-06-07, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
...On account of the assumption that she wouldn't be capable of doing anything that the Twelve Gods didn't want her to do, no less.
Until she fell, she was following an external code. Then she killed Shojo, which was the point where she started following the internal code of not having an internal code. That is chaotic.
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2013-06-07, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
I'm pretty sure she was still perceiving what she was doing as the will of the Twelve Gods, shocking lack of rational thought aside. I'm not sure that was much of a shift, she was always doing how she perceived the will of the 12 gods, and I don't think 12 gods were ever quite in-line with her thinking.
Anyway, wherever else get an "abrupt-shift" between a character following an external to following an internal one?The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
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2013-06-07, 03:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-06-07, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Vigilantism and the Lawful Alignment in OotS
Good. I want that disagreement to happen, because I want people to be thinking more deeply about it than you are. Maybe they'll learn something. Maybe they'll be better players when the dust settles. Art should challenge preconceptions, not roll over and parrot them back to avoid making waves.
So, I'm going to keep doing exactly what I'm doing, and if this has taught me anything, it's that it's working.
And now I really am done with this.Rich Burlew
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