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2013-07-22, 06:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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2013-07-22, 06:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
And since when the alignment of your son makes your own alignment? Even conceding that Orrin wasn't CG doesn't mean that his father Girard is CN retroactively...
"They" (I suppose you mean the Draketooths) don't need to have all the same alignment, it's not even suggested in the strips.
So let's not mix everything together. We only know about Orrin and Girard. Girard was clearly chaotic, but going against a paladin doesn't mean that you are not in the side of good (remember Miko and Roy relation?), specially in a world where paladins tend to have a little pouch of fascism inside, like...
SOD spoiler:
Spoilercommitting genocide. No matter the people exterminated are "almost always evil", as the Sapphire Guard killed also children and grandfathers
Girard Draketooth is just a Chaotic Good characters who, in character development has come to hate a paladin guy.
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2013-07-22, 06:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Well, I don't know what to say except that I have no idea where you're getting that from. I literally have never written Crystal do anything Lawful, ever, other than take orders from a guy who only gives her orders she wants to do anyway (i.e. kill people). The closest there has ever been to an order Crystal didn't already want to do was, "Don't kill this person yet." And even then, I see her following it more because she knows Bozzok is smarter than her and probably has an awesome scheme, even though she reeeeeally wants to do it now. Being able to delay gratification slightly does not make you Lawful; it may make you not-as-Chaotic-as-you-could-be. Heck, if Bozzok died, Crystal would probably drift to full-bore Chaotic Evil in about a week, tops.
Elan took orders from Sir Francois and Roy, Haley took orders from her father, Right-Eye took orders from Xykon, but that doesn't make any of them blindly obedient or Lawful. Crystal just happens to have a job where she likes her boss and gets to do what she wants 99% of the time.Rich Burlew
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2013-07-22, 06:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Hmm, so you specifically mentioned Mr. Jones' alignment, but not Mr. Rodriguez's....
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2013-07-22, 06:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
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2013-07-22, 06:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
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2013-07-22, 06:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Miko's alignment (post-Fall) hasn't been mentioned either- there was a lot of speculation that she was LN, NG, or even TN.
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2013-07-22, 06:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Interesting. Looks like I pegged Right-Eye's and Tsukiko's alignments right when I was thinking about them, although I was never sure which shade of Neutral Right-Eye was.
As for MitD's alignment, my guess is that he used to be True Neutral of the apathetic variety until V's battle with Xykon. After that, O-Chul's influence started to finally take root and he's moving towards a Good alignment of some sort. Future strips will tell how right or wrong I am.My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
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2013-07-22, 06:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Interesting. I haven't played D&D in quite some time, but isn't what constitutes a certain alignment subjective?
Never to command the army again...oh distant azure heaven, what could be more sad? - Zhuge Liang
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2013-07-22, 06:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
In 2nd ed there were mentions of some degree of subjectivity, but since 3rd ed, alignments have been pretty objective-
in the sense that, it doesn't matter what the moral code of the caster of Detect Evil (or other alignment) says- an Evil person will detect as Evil when anybody casts that spell on them (in the absence of other factors like protective spells).Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2013-07-22, 06:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
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2013-07-22, 06:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
I concur. This is the reason I find this alignment explanation useful, although it's not any official material, it's rather philosophical: one of the keys is how the alignment-related see themselves: http://easydamus.com/alignmentreal.html
Last edited by Blas_de_Lezo; 2013-07-22 at 06:51 AM.
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2013-07-22, 07:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Thanks a lot for this. But one character I don't understand is Therkla. How could she be a right hand to a guy like Kubota for all those years, kill a colleague on ninja university just to get ahead, plan an assasination of a paladin and a legitimate leader and genuinely liking it, and yet keep a True Neutral alignment? Or did she become TN during her last evening?
There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.
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2013-07-22, 07:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
First, Ninja School is kill-or-be-killed. That guy knew the score when he enrolled and probably did it to the guy ahead of him.
Second, I'm more concerned with her activity in the comic than an implied history that I haven't bothered to work out. Kubota was teaching her to be a villain, implying that it didn't come naturally to her.
And third, being a paid ninja for hire is not as Evil as killing for the joy of killing (i.e. Crystal again). Therkla had a job, she did it. She didn't ask questions about who Kubota marked.
Maybe it's a borderline case, but it's how I wrote her reactions.Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
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2013-07-22, 07:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Where's Draketooth and Family? They're as Chaotic Neutral as ever. Remember Girard could not be evil as Soon would fall.
I highly doubt Lirain is NG given her greatest defence of her Gate was an evil spell (all disease spells are evil).
Shouldn't Fallen Miko also be LN
Edit: Nale could be seen as NE.Last edited by Sunken Valley; 2013-07-22 at 07:32 AM.
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2013-07-22, 07:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Cool, I pegged a lot of those right.
I always saw Bozzok and especially Hank as somewhat Lawful, though. I guess the Chaotic nature of what their business is all about evens things out.
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2013-07-22, 08:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
You really have issues with the idea that rich might not want to just tell you everything you want to know rather than have to figure it out on your own, don't you?
Also, Girard could easily have become evil after the Scribble broke up. We don't know, though.
I highly doubt Lirain is NG given her greatest defence of her Gate was an evil spell (all disease spells are evil).
All the ones you know about. An Epic level, customized disease that does no actual harm to a living being? Why would that be evil? It screams respect for life.
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2013-07-22, 08:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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2013-07-22, 08:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Interesting you
all but explicitlysaid that Therkla is neutral and has always been neutral!
This along with Enor and Gannji makes me think you have a conception of there being a sort of neutral personalty along the lines of "Mercenary." Someone who acts as either good or evil, depending on whose providing them with the incentives. For Therkla that included a sense of family, while for Enor and Gannji its pure money.
EDIT: Oh I just saw this motherload of alignment identification! So you ACTUALLY revealed Therkla's alignment as well as the rest.
Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2013-07-22 at 08:44 AM.
The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
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2013-07-22, 08:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
I want you to go to TVTropes, Webcomic The Order of the Stick, Characters List. I want you to notice that there are 9 pages full of the characters that The Giant has created since 2003 (Order of the Stick, Team Evil, Linear Guild, Order of the Scribble, Azure City, Greysky City, Empire of Blood, Divine Beings, Others). Now I want you to consider why The Giant really skipped some of them in his comment
A game is a fictional construct created for the sake of the players, not the other way around. If you have a question "How do I keep X from happening at my table," and you feel that the out-of-game answer "Talk the the other people at your table" won't help, then the in-game answers "Remove mechanics A, B, and/or C, impose mechanics L, M, and/or N" will not help either.
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2013-07-22, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
I don't think it is the only conception of Neutral, but it certainly is a valid conception of Neutral. And one that is easy to fit into a story like this, since the Neutral people who just want to be left alone are off being left alone, away from the action. And the "balance" types would represent a whole other angle that would clutter up the narrative and muddy the issue of whether the Good team was in the right or not.
Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
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2013-07-22, 08:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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2013-07-22, 09:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
I'm not going to tell you you're wrong about your character's alignment, of course, but bear in mind, I don't (didn't) have the inside information you do about what Crystal would do in other situations or why she does what she does. Onstage, unless I'm forgetting something (which I well might be), she never disobeys an order. Never acts as if disobeying an order is an option she has any more than she has the option of flapping her arms and flying to the moon. Never does anything she isn't ordered to do, unless jumping in when she wasn't specifically addressed to say things like, "There is no 'I' in Thieves Guild!" or "Our thieves are only allowed to steal from the people our thieves are allowed to steal from!" counts. By contrast, Elan's, ah, "initiative" nearly got Sir Francois killed multiple times, Haley is conspicuously going against her father right now, and Redcloak's brother only obeyed Xykon in the presence of immediate threats to his life and the lives of his loved ones.
Again, I'm not contesting that Crystal is Neutral Evil. I'm just surprised to learn it.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2013-07-22, 09:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
I thought as much, in fact I was writing up an argument to this effect. As I see it there are four types of Neutral alignment:
1. Lack of Moral Capacity
This refers to animals and other creatures that totally lack the capacity for moral behavior. The example from the SRD is vipers and tigers.
2. Philosophical Neutrality "Balance" Types
Someone who really believes in a balance of good and evil.
3. Lack of Sacrifice "Indifferent" Types
This is the plain vanilla neutral the SRD seems to be shooting for as the common sort of neutral. In terms of good vs. evil this sort of Neutral person has "compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others." The SRD claims that most neutral people prefer good to evil and law to chaos.
4. Mercenary Type
This is the type who would join with either good or evil depending on who is providing them with the incentives.
I see the 4th type as basically a selfish, look out for #1, type who otherwise have very little opinion about morality but is not a malicious being. Enor and Gannji exemplify this sort of notion, appearing on the Ookoodook T-shrit with "Neutral, you are not being paid enough."
The interesting part of this notion is that it is nowhere described in the SRD but is notably in Palladium's RPGs which has "Selfish" occupying the "neutral" within their alignment system. The plain description of neutral evil marks selfish people as Neutral evil.
I would imagine, that in this conception of alignment, a real Neutral-Evil type character would join with the good guys to advance himself but would be on the look out to betray them at first opportunity possibly at the his own accord. The mercenary types will remain reasonably loyal.
Edit: That "plain description of Neutral evil" requires explanation
SpoilerFrom SRD:A neutral evilvillaindoes whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn’t have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evilvillainhas.
There's nothing that actually says that EVIL or "villain" types have a certain internal drive towards evil, but it can be read as implied in the tone of the SRD. In OOTS, a certain enthusiasm for evil seems to be required, because we see quite a few neutral types (Right-eye, Therkla, the Oracle) that join with evil beings but simply have no great love for actually committing these actions. The trio I mentioned are all alike in craving a certain normalcy and a sense of belonging.Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2013-07-22 at 09:36 AM. Reason: Explain "plain description of Neutral Evil"
The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
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2013-07-22, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Bingo. Who's signature says "Neutrals look out for number 1. Evils look out for number 1 by crushing number 2?"
Personally, I like the 5x5 "tendencies" alignment chart more than the 3x3, and I would personally peg "More selfish than average/normal" as being evil-tendencies, but that it's not truly Evil unless somebody is as spiteful and destructive about what they can't have as they are miserly about what they can.
However, since The Giant uses the 3x3 chart instead of the 5x5, Enor and Ganji would be on the Neutral side of selfish rather than the Evil side. Also, keep in mind that they didn't successfully capture half of the Order of the Stick so much as they unsuccessfully tried to capture half of the Linear Guild.A game is a fictional construct created for the sake of the players, not the other way around. If you have a question "How do I keep X from happening at my table," and you feel that the out-of-game answer "Talk the the other people at your table" won't help, then the in-game answers "Remove mechanics A, B, and/or C, impose mechanics L, M, and/or N" will not help either.
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2013-07-22, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Rich has implied that paladins fell while commiting the goblin massacres, and that it wasn't obvious to observers. He directly stated that Miko's fall was deliberatly made blindinly obvious to show the supreme disfavor of the gods. Now while Miko could fall from a single evil act (and did), so she could easily still be LG (and I assume that most [NPC] paladins fall this way. I'd even like to assume that the best paladins have a tendancy to "fall up" to neutral good).
Between her on screen actions, which looked like stereotypical LN play, and the visible wrath of the gods, I would tenatively mark her at LN. There really is no way to be certain, and her last scene said that a LG archon (her paladin's warhorse) could travel to meet her, so she isn't that far away. In the standard D&D multiverse* she's certainly in Arcadia (which she probably would be regardless of which side of the G/N line she wound up on).
*I've had the impression that they added a lot more planes and shades of alignments since AD&D. The wiki claims that there are still only 16 (didn't see concordinant opposition on the list), so I'm assuming that the various levels of planes are for different grades of alignment.
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2013-07-22, 10:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
I was referring to true neutral, because to me the other forms of neutral seem to be more focused on the other component of their alignment. Neutral Good is called the most good, because it does not favor law or chaos, only good. Likewise, Neutral Evil doesn't unproductively pursue chaos nor needlessly cling to honor or order, freeing it to pursue evil in the most damaging and efficient manner.
Thus, neutrality isn't what makes those alignments interesting. It is the other component, unbiased in regards to one axis. Dedication to neutrality or balance always rings false; what rational being would care about it? Maybe lawful neutral characters would, but it still seems like "balance" could be replaced with "good" in that sense. "I favor neither law, nor chaos, nor evil, nor good, because balance is the overriding principle of the universe." Sure, sounds interesting, but that itself is a strict adherence to certain principles. Sounds lawful. "I believe that neither the forces of good nor the forces of evil can be allowed to fully prevail over each other." That's not neutrality, it's just a belief in Good needing a little Evil to exist; it still favors good, because its trying to preserve the universe (and if preserving the universe isn't good, then it's lawful). True neutral should mean complete apathy or completely selfish but not malicious.
TL;DR version: Neutrality is boring. Neutral characters in the story probably exist, they just don't stand out or bring up their alignments often. The most interesting neutral characters will have non-alignment facets of their personalities to motivate them, which brings me to Girard.
Girard is probably true neutral, but HIS ALIGNMENT IS NOT WHAT MADE HIM INTERESTING. His paranoia, not evil or love of sowing chaos inspired his most heinous actions, and ego and self-preservation inspired his best. Those are not part of his alignment.Last edited by sengmeng; 2013-07-22 at 10:15 AM.
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2013-07-22, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
She was still probably Lawful Good enough to be evaluated by a Deva. She thought she was both being lawful and doing good when she cut down Shojo, and when she destroyed the gate. She was horribly, horribly wrong, but intent does matter for something. As Roy's Deva said, "You're trying." Whatever being a paladin would have gotten her will probably be forever out of her reach, but she should still get in to climb the mountain and work things out for herself.
Roy was going to be pushed to True Neutral because abandoning Elan was a willful selfish act. Miko's acts were mistakes, but they weren't willfully selfish.
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2013-07-22, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Hmmm, I'm thinking from what Rich just said is he doesn't have more than just the one conception [which he is using for OOTS characters] and he equated being mercenary to being indifferent. Within OOTS perhaps the Neutral people of OOTS are just indifferent enough that many don't prefer Good over Evil, or for every neutral person that likes good people (Vaarsuvius), there is one that prefers hanging around evil people (the Oracle, Right-eye).
That frees up selfishness for all sorts of characters: Eugene, Haley, Enor, Nale...Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2013-07-22 at 10:35 AM. Reason: explanation
The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
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2013-07-22, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
The problem with that is it is hard to see how anyone who is willing to do whatever is asked of them by an evil person/entity can be anything other than evil themselves. If Tarquin hires a mercenary company to help him sack some city-state and tells the mercenaries to slaughter every man, woman, and child within the city once it is captured, the mercenaries are evil if they obey that order. That they are getting paid to obey Tarquin or that they might not enjoy carrying out the order or that next week they might take a job working for a good person/entity doesn't give them a pass on obeying this order. If you are willing to murder innocents for profit you are Evil.
I see the 4th type as basically a selfish, look out for #1, type who otherwise have very little opinion about morality but is not a malicious being. Enor and Gannji exemplify this sort of notion, appearing on the Ookoodook T-shrit with "Neutral, you are not being paid enough."