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Thread: The rapid change in Tarquin
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2013-12-07, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
Re: The rapid change in Tarquin
Luke was always the main hero. Star Wars is a sci-fi fantasy epic, and epics usually have more than one main character. Luke, Han, Vader and Leia were all the main characters, with Luke as the First Among Equals.
Tarquin simply doesn't realize he is in a fantasy epic (if a fairly satirical one starring stick men). He thinks he is in a Sword and Sorcery with one main hero (Elan) and one main villain (himself), which suggests Nale was somewhat right about his lack of ambition. Not to mention saying volumes about how self-centred he is.
Or maybe he thinks he's just in a different sort of epic, starring himself, with Elan as his second main character. Roy is Obi-Wan, and will share the same fate.Last edited by masamune1; 2013-12-07 at 08:33 PM.
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2013-12-07, 09:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: The rapid change in Tarquin
Because quite frankly Tarquin is winning. The OotS has been on the run essentially this whole fight. This is not a fair fight. The only real victory they have had is triggering contingencies. Worse their is a very good chance scarf guy is healing up to teleport back. And if the OotS ever does start winning Laurin can just port out with Tarquin.
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2013-12-07, 09:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
Re: The rapid change in Tarquin
Also, from the POV of the characters, the fight has only been on a few minutes. And Laurin might feel that she owes it to the men she let Tarquin send to their deaths to kill these little pricks.
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2013-12-07, 09:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2003
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- Philadelphia, PA
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Re: The rapid change in Tarquin
I can't think of anything more boring than a character who always wins and never gets emotionally impacted by anything.
Also, undercutting that so-called "redefinition of evil" is sort of the point. Because it's bull****. It's not a real thing. You can't be a torturing, mass-murdering rapist and then go home and turn your Evil Switch to the "off" position to spend time with your kids. It doesn't work that way. If you are the sort of person that can commit the acts that Tarquin does daily, then that will find its way into every aspect of your existence. It's who you are. This idea that Tarquin was this perfectly rational actor despite being a complete monster at his Day Job is a pipe dream. Tarquin wants you (and Elan) to think that what he does is separate from who he is—that he's a fundamentally decent man who just so happens to murder a bunch of people here and there—because that's how he tricks you into slowly accepting his blatant Evil as a valid life choice that needs to be respected. Which it is not.
Some people want to love the villain without having to face the fact that villains are largely terrible people who do horrific things with deficient reasoning. Not on my watch.Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2013-12-07, 09:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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2013-12-07, 09:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- Lake Wobegon
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2013-12-07, 09:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- Lake Wobegon
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2013-12-07, 09:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2010
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2013-12-07, 09:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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2013-12-07, 10:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2003
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- Philadelphia, PA
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Re: The rapid change in Tarquin
Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2013-12-07, 10:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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- Virginia
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Re: The rapid change in Tarquin
The Generalisimo just hates Chaos. What he seems to take seriously is challenges to the way he believes things ought to work. Take the example of Enor and Ganji, he let those two go, more because they served their function (entertaining the crowd) than for anything else. Elan thought that the two had defied his authority, and Tarquin states that they have, but they did not defy their function. That is what really matters.
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2013-12-07, 10:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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2013-12-07, 10:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: The inevitable disappointment of the people who idealized Tarkie.
Last edited by Kish; 2013-12-10 at 12:51 PM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2013-12-07, 10:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: The rapid change in Tarquin
Yes, Tarquin is a rapist.
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2013-12-07, 10:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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- The land of corn
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2013-12-07, 10:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
Re: The rapid change in Tarquin
I just wanted to know if he ever succeeded. I am relieved that he didn't.
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2013-12-07, 10:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
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2013-12-07, 10:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
Re: The rapid change in Tarquin
They seem all right with it. At least Scarf-guy does.
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2013-12-07, 11:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2010
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2013-12-07, 11:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
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Re: The rapid change in Tarquin
You're absolutely wrong here. For example, there are plenty of cases where children had no idea that their parents had committed atrocities or had helped commit atrocities. The fact of the matter is that, yes, Virginia, people can and do do horrible things and otherwise come across as decent people to those who don't know about their actions. It's astounding that you think otherwise.
All this talk in the comic about upsetting traditional narratives, and here you are on the forums complaining about the fact that your audience loves the villain.
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2013-12-07, 11:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
Re: The rapid change in Tarquin
I'm not sure, I kind of see that point.
Tarquin's not evil AND Lawful, he's SUCH an evil man BECAUSE he's so Lawful. He's got about the same amount of evil in him as Xykon or Nale, but unlike Redcloak, who's just Lawful Evil because he's evil with something approaching impulse control compared to 90% of the villains in the series, Tarquin is so much worse than he might be if he was Chaotic because he takes Law way, way, WAY too far.
Tarquin HATES Chaos, and everything about chaos. Freedom. Spontaneity, Creativity, uncertainty, disagreements. Tarquin cannot and doesn't want to live in a world where these things are rampant. EVERYONE needs his kind of security more than they need to be free. Or alive, for that matter. Stories happen HIS way or they don't happen, period. Arguments are resolved quickly and reasonably by Tarquin's metrics or they end with death.
Tarquin would be quite evil if he was Chaotic or Neutral, but Lawful grabs Evil and does ten consecutive touchdowns with his characterization where normally you'd expect Lawful Evil to be the pick of a bad lot because it at least has some code compared to Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil. Tarquin's a good example of why Lawful Evil can be so much worse when Law really gets its teeth into this whole Evil thing instead of struggling with it.Holy crap, I have a blog!
When one has made a decision to kill a person, even if it will be very difficult to succeed by advancing straight ahead, it will not do to think about doing it in a long, roundabout way. One's heart may slacken, he may miss his chance, and by and large there will be no success. The Way of the Samurai is one of immediacy, and it is best to dash in headlong.
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2013-12-08, 12:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
Re: The rapid change in Tarquin
I don't really think "deficient reasoning" is a necessary flaw of evil.
"Evil" is a necessary flaw of evil.
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2013-12-08, 12:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- Lake Wobegon
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2013-12-08, 12:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2008
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- Large Midwestern City
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Re: The rapid change in Tarquin
I'd have to agree. If anything, that's something I find scariest - that some people can do horrible, horrible things, and then go home and act as if they're just another person. It's one of the most common and disturbing trends in history, and regardless of whether Tarquin fits that mold or if his rottenness extends from his Big Actions to his day-to-day life, I am surprised that that reality is so outright rejected. In the past (and even to a certain degree today), otherwise rational people have found excuses for their inexcusable behavior (it's business, I was ordered to, everyone else is doing it, etc), and once said behavior is completed, they compartmentalize it and go about their "normal" lives just like anyone.
It doesn't matter whether Tarquin is meant to be one of those, but it does matter to me that the presence of such people is acknowledged as all too real.!
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2013-12-08, 12:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2010
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Re: The rapid change in Tarquin
I disagree with several things about this post.
Starting from the bottom: No, I don't normally expect Lawful Evil to be the pick of a bad lot. Any such perception is due to either a difference in degree of Evil in your perceived norm, or your preference for Law. Law acting as a check on Evil, something for Evil to struggle with, is not the default where alignment is concerned. As for the last sentence...worse than what? Than other Evil alignments? No, because the others can be similarly amplified. Than other Lawful Evil characters? By what baseline?
Second, of course Lawful works well with Evil with respect to Tarquin's characterization. You're praising the glass for fitting the water; Tarquin's character was designed for Lawful Evil, so naturally his brand of Evil is very Lawful. That doesn't make his Evilness derive from his Lawfulness. Nor does it mean one couldn't construct a character very similar to Tarquin, alignment CE, that was just as bad as Tarquin, and devoted himself to destroying Good civilizations instead of establishing Evil ones.
Third, you're uncritically repeating the same pattern I criticized in rbetieh's post: describing Tarquin's devotion to Law in loving detail while casually reducing his Evil to the phrase "his kind of". Are we really just going to pass over the fact that Tarquin's envisioned order is a horrible place, and not just because it lacks freedom? Is it really so inconceivable that a LG character might hate chaos just as much as Tarquin, but express it differently because he actually has concern for the dignity of sentient life and has a different vision from Tarquin? Tarquin isn't Evil because he is extremely Lawful; he's just extremely Lawful Evil.
Finally, Redcloak's brand of LE is more complex than you portray it as. But that's a tale for another time.Last edited by Math_Mage; 2013-12-08 at 12:57 AM.
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2013-12-08, 12:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: The rapid change in Tarquin
"His kind of" evil works best if it's used as a description of his monumental narcissism. He does things because they make him happy. How they make other people feel never crosses his mind. He'll do arbitrarily cruel things or show unexpected generosity because that's what he wants to do. Sometime in his past, he took his selfish attitude and applied it to his future, and realized the best way to give himself that happiness was to take control of everything. He achieves his goals using order, but his goals are selfish and evil no matter how he reaches them.
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2013-12-08, 01:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
Re: The rapid change in Tarquin
I will admit it is a bias on my part to view that if I had to pick an Evil enemy, I would probably pick a Lawful Evil one because of the chance of them having SOME restraints on the evil they're willing to do, on top of being more predictable. I'm merely pointing out that it's a common image for Lawful Evil to be just as vicious but more restrained and methodical than Neutral Evil, who will do whatever is expedient to get their way, and Chaotic Evil, which is so unpredictable it will gladly hurt ITSELF to kill you and cannot be anticipated, reasoned with, or resolved with anything but a sharp blade or a jail cell and a prayer.
Would you disagree that Tarquin plays with that notion? I thought he certainly did; at first he does seem like the Lawful Evil villain that does his evil getting to the top and then brutally making sure nobody else can get to his level and providing an organized contrast to Xykon's willingness to annihilate everything but himself as long as his enemy's not still standing when the dust settles. But then it's flipped; Tarquin's lawfulness is shown as driving him not just to kill people for pleasure, like any evil individual will usually do, but to throttle individuality, hope, freedom, and a number of other wonderful, "messy" things out of the universe in an effort to crush it down and make everything surviving think the way he does. A lot of writers explore how frigging dangerous absolutely unfettered villains like Xykon are, but I thought it was interesting for Tarquin to go the other way with showing how an evil but intensely organized and obsessively focused mind can be just as dangerous in its own way when many Lawful Evil villains are either Lucius Malfoy, the rule-manipulating scumbag with some unimportant standards for himself that's ultimately stepped over by more unhinged villains, or someone slapping on the Hitler parallel and calling it a day. You're welcome to disagree, of course, but this is where my thoughts on evil vis a vis tarquin have led me.
Second, of course Lawful works well with Evil with respect to Tarquin's characterization. You're praising the glass for fitting the water; Tarquin's character was designed for Lawful Evil, so naturally his brand of Evil is very Lawful. That doesn't make his Evilness derive from his Lawfulness. Nor does it mean one couldn't construct a character very similar to Tarquin, alignment CE, that was just as bad as Tarquin, and devoted himself to destroying Good civilizations instead of establishing Evil ones.
Third, you're uncritically repeating the same pattern I criticized in rbetieh's post: describing Tarquin's devotion to Law in loving detail while casually reducing his Evil to the phrase "his kind of". Are we really just going to pass over the fact that Tarquin's envisioned order is a horrible place, and not just because it lacks freedom? Is it really so inconceivable that a LG character might hate chaos just as much as Tarquin, but express it differently because he actually has concern for the dignity of sentient life and has a different vision from Tarquin? Tarquin isn't Evil because he is extremely Lawful; he's just extremely Lawful Evil.Holy crap, I have a blog!
When one has made a decision to kill a person, even if it will be very difficult to succeed by advancing straight ahead, it will not do to think about doing it in a long, roundabout way. One's heart may slacken, he may miss his chance, and by and large there will be no success. The Way of the Samurai is one of immediacy, and it is best to dash in headlong.
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2013-12-08, 01:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: The rapid change in Tarquin
Look, someone can be a mass-murdering rapist, but good to his family - sure, that happens a lot (just ask about "Iceman" Kuklinski's family. Or Salvatore Riina, former head of the Sicilian mafia who has the blood of THOUSANDS on his hands. Good family man). BUT... Rich's point is that this DOES NOT MAKE THEM A GOOD PERSON WHO DOES EVIL THINGS. IT MAKES THEM AN EVIL PERSON WHO SOMETIMES DOES GOOD THINGS.
IF YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THIS, THEN YOU NEED TO ASK YOURSELF IF YOU ARE JUSTIFYING SOMETHING HORRIBLE IN YOUR OWN BEHAVIOR OR IN THE BEHAVIOR OF THOSE YOU CARE ABOUT. IT IS NOT NORMAL OR SANE TO SAY THAT AN EVIL, MASS-MURDERING RAPIST IS A GOOD GUY BECAUSE HE IS NICE TO HIS FAMILY.
Sorry about the caps, but I feel it must be emphasized.
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2013-12-08, 01:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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- Dallas, TX
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Re: The rapid change in Tarquin
It's worth pointing out that on this continent, until the OotS and Xykon got interested in the desert, Tarquin was the main villain, so all his genre-savvy actions based on that idea were working. The only problem is that he doesn't know that there is a bigger story going on now, and he's now a small character on a bigger stage.
Last edited by Jay R; 2013-12-08 at 01:35 AM.
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2013-12-08, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2013
Re: The rapid change in Tarquin
You make a good point, but the character we've seen in the comic hasn't contradicted himself. He's genial and forgiving when it suits him, and selfish and controlling the rest of the time. He justifies his acts as moving beyond mere morality, but few would say he acts with utility for the benefit of others. When something becomes more important to him then sentiment, he acts without mercy. You're always at risk dealing with him, no matter how he's behaving at any given moment.
Your comment reminds me of Chinatown. Right up to the end, the villain is able to wear his respectable citizen persona with ease, even though his final few minutes on screen are more monstrous than all his previous despicable acts combined.
Real life bad guys don't always lose control of their facade or inflict suffering on everyone around them. On the other hand, there's always the question of who they are deep down. If someone they care about finds out they have slaves in their basement, do they keep up their facade, or act without mercy to keep the secret safe? If you give a murderer the keys to a kingdom, is he more concerned with keeping his behavior secret, or forcing his subjects to act like they believe he's a good guy?
The "Family Secrets" trials got a lot of attention for how ruthlessly outwardly civil mobsters treated their closest family members and friends. With enough pressure, genial relationships can become him-or-me life-and-death struggles. Maybe the question here is whether it matters how you behave in one area of your life if you're enough of a monster in the rest. Tarquin is a threat to everyone who comes into contact with him, no matter how ordinary he behaves when it suits him. He hasn't thrown away all of his old personality in the last few pages; he's angry and frustrated with Elan, so his evil control freak behavior is at its peak. Give him his way in the battle on the Mechane, and he'll no doubt go back to his laid-back in-control persona in a very short time. He's casually cruel at all times, but he's not a raging emotional beast until something really sets him off. He's still a deeply rotten, evil character underneath.Last edited by Boring McReader; 2013-12-08 at 01:39 AM.